Thoughts on next cycle?

[SpicedCider]

*Long post alert*

So I'm finishing up week 8 of my planned 8-week run of TBol/toremifene/HCG, I'm mulling over whether to extend the cycle by one more week (assuming that toxicity isn't too much of a concern). I'm currently at 80 mg/day and have had a good run so far -- I have lost fat, gotten leaner and stronger, and I'm pretty sure I've gained muscle, although I haven't taken measurements yet (will post before/after pics soon, though).

Quick question -- if I do decide to extend my current cycle by one more week, would it be dangerous to increase the dosage to 90 mg or even 100 mg/day?

I'm not really feeling shut down at all, so it's going to be interesting to see what a blood test reveals. On that topic, does anyone have any recommendations for a good, thorough blood test to buy from a site like Walkinlab.com, Directlabs.com, etc.? I recall that there was one that a few of the members on here have recommended in the past, but I can't seem to find those old posts where they reference it.

After witnessing the progress I've made during my current cycle, I'm already eager to start planning my next cycle. If you guys don't mind, I'd like to solicit suggestions from you all. My primary goal for my next cycle is going to be to gain as much lean muscle mass as possible. Even though the number on the scale hasn't increased that much during my TBol cycle, all the weight I've gained seems to be muscle. I'm very much a "quality over quantity" person, and I don't care for the bloated/puffy look that water weight tends to impart.

While I have enjoyed my TBol cycle, I'd like to take something that is even more effective at promoting lean muscle gains.

So in summary, if there's a steroid out there that could be considered (effects-wise) to be a "TBol on steroids," I'd definitely be interested in it. Even if such a compound would "only" result in me gaining half the overall amount of weight as something that promotes lots of water weight/glycogen/fat gains, I'm 100% okay with that because I'm only interested in gaining quality muscle.

Having said that, I'm guessing that there's really no way to achieve my goal without injecting testosterone. Is my presumption correct, or could I possibly have a good experience taking something much stronger than TBol without a test base as long as I combine it with toremifene and HCG, as I have done during my current cycle?

I have been prone to self-esteem issues (sometimes to an extreme extent) my entire life, and these issues are sometimes severe enough to temporarily ruin my entire outlook on life, so I'm thinking that I probably want to stay away from something that promotes psychological side effects like tren.

One compound I've been curious about is DHB. From the research I've done, a lot of guys seem to equate it to a tren without the psychological side effects. Do you guys think it could be a good idea to run a cycle of DHB + torem + HCG without a test base, or is it a really bad idea to run a relatively strong compound like that without a test base?

Thanks, and apologies for the long-ass post.

 

[Old Witch]

Tbol on steroids: Dbol.

You won’t feel shut down if you’re using hcg. you’re definitely not having your testes shut down man in that case. Blood tests will show lh and fsh probably low or zero. Possibly altered lipids, possibly altered liver values. Test will likely be high.

 

[Old Witch]

And yes dhb, torem and hcg would be a fine cycle in my opinion.

 

[Renew1]

I'm curious after reading your post.
It seems that you are not trying to avoid pinning, but trying to avoid Test. Is that correct?

 

[Jinsun]

Well he isn't avoiding pinning if he is considering DHB

AND NO, DHB plus torem makes no sense at all. DHB will shut you down hard. You need test with it. The only esterfied aas that will produce nice lean gains and could possibly be run with a serm is primo. That's it, period. Primo at a smal dosage of 200mg for 3 months. 400mg if you're feeling lucky.

Otherwise just use test and add a decent amount of DHB or primo. DHB will obviously be stronger. Regarding bloat... estrogen helps a lot in building tissue. So you might get a bit bloated but underneath that watter there should be more muscle... after you stop the aas, bloat will go away but muscle will stay.

 

[Old Witch]

Well he isn't avoiding pinning if he is considering DHB

AND NO, DHB plus torem makes no sense at all. DHB will shut you down hard. You need test with it. The only esterfied aas that will produce nice lean gains and could possibly be run with a serm is primo. That's it, period. Primo at a smal dosage of 200mg for 3 months. 400mg if you're feeling lucky.

Otherwise just use test and add a decent amount of DHB or primo. DHB will obviously be stronger. Regarding bloat... estrogen helps a lot in building tissue. So you might get a bit bloated but underneath that watter there should be more muscle... after you stop the aas, bloat will go away but muscle will stay.

HCG dude.

 

[Renew1]

Well he isn't avoiding pinning if he is considering DHB

AND NO, DHB plus torem makes no sense at all. DHB will shut you down hard. You need test with it. The only esterfied aas that will produce nice lean gains and could possibly be run with a serm is primo. That's it, period. Primo at a smal dosage of 200mg for 3 months. 400mg if you're feeling lucky.

Otherwise just use test and add a decent amount of DHB or primo. DHB will obviously be stronger. Regarding bloat... estrogen helps a lot in building tissue. So you might get a bit bloated but underneath that watter there should be more muscle... after you stop the aas, bloat will go away but muscle will stay.

Well, I was kind of assuming that he was avoiding Test, not pinning. But I was hoping to get the actual response from him... Not an assumption.


And what you said about DHB is not necessarily true. Just because you haven't seen another delivery method, that doesn't mean that pinning is the only one.

Anyway... SpicedCider, are you avoiding Test?
If so, Im curious why.

 

[Mathb33]

Tbol usually packs on a few quality lbm for sure! I’m curious to see pics bro!

 

[SpicedCider]

Thanks to everyone who has offered advice so far. To answer some questions -- Renew1, I don't mind pinning at this point (since I've been pinning HCG throughout my TBol cycle anyways), and I'm open to the consideration of injecting test during the cycle, but there are a few considerations I have in mind that make me somewhat apprehensive to do so.

The main consideration is in regards to bloating and other estrogen-related issues. One reason I chose TBol (aside from its reputation for promoting lean muscle gains) is because it doesn't aromatize, so bloating, gyno, and any other potential estrogen-related side effects were never any issues I had to worry about. Also, whenever I see guys at the gym who have these ripped, muscular bodies and overtly bloated faces, it just comes across as a bad look to me. The lean, chiseled look is what I have always been interested in achieving, even if it means gaining/carrying overall less weight.

I also like the fact that taking a drug that doesn't aromatize means that I don't need to worry about taking an AI as well, although it's not that big of a deal if I do need to start taking one during my next cycle. I just loved the carefree "pop and go" nature of TBol in that regard.

HOWEVER, I have heard a lot about testosterone's positive effects on mood, self-confidence, the tendency to lower inhibitions, etc., and as a male who has lived through most of his life with a glaring lack of self-confidence and very high inhibitions to the extent that it compromised his ability to engage in many of the experiences that most "normal" guys experience by default during their 20s, I really would like to take something that will boost my confidence, mood, and drive.

The middle of this cycle will also coincide with a trip I'll be taking for 2 weeks in mid-May for school, and there's going to be a fair amount of club-going and bar hopping during the trip, so I'm hoping to be in a more confident, assertive frame of mind that will help me to get laid.

So in summary, I figure the fewer compounds I take, the better, but I'm definitely willing to inject test during my next cycle if it would be of the most benefit to do so.

But keeping in my mind that my goal is to gain as much quality lean mass (and maintain more of a lean look) as possible, are there any other compounds you'd guys recommend besides DHB? Or is DHB the best steroid for my goals?

Thanks

 

[Renew1]

Thanks to everyone who has offered advice so far. To answer some questions -- Renew1, I don't mind pinning at this point (since I've been pinning HCG throughout my TBol cycle anyways), and I'm open to the consideration of injecting test during the cycle, but there are a few considerations I have in mind that make me somewhat apprehensive to do so.

The main consideration is in regards to bloating and other estrogen-related issues. One reason I chose TBol (aside from its reputation for promoting lean muscle gains) is because it doesn't aromatize, so bloating, gyno, and any other potential estrogen-related side effects were never any issues I had to worry about. Also, whenever I see guys at the gym who have these ripped, muscular bodies and overtly bloated faces, it just comes across as a bad look to me. The lean, chiseled look is what I have always been interested in achieving, even if it means gaining/carrying overall less weight.

I also like the fact that taking a drug that doesn't aromatize means that I don't need to worry about taking an AI as well, although it's not that big of a deal if I do need to start taking one during my next cycle. I just loved the carefree "pop and go" nature of TBol in that regard.

HOWEVER, I have heard a lot about testosterone's positive effects on mood, self-confidence, the tendency to lower inhibitions, etc., and as a male who has lived through most of his life with a glaring lack of self-confidence and very high inhibitions to the extent that it compromised his ability to engage in many of the experiences that most "normal" guys experience by default during their 20s, I really would like to take something that will boost my confidence, mood, and drive.

The middle of this cycle will also coincide with a trip I'll be taking for 2 weeks in mid-May for school, and there's going to be a fair amount of club-going and bar hopping during the trip, so I'm hoping to be in a more confident, assertive frame of mind that will help me to get laid.

So in summary, I figure the fewer compounds I take, the better, but I'm definitely willing to inject test during my next cycle if it would be of the most benefit to do so.

But keeping in my mind that my goal is to gain as much quality lean mass (and maintain more of a lean look) as possible, are there any other compounds you'd guys recommend besides DHB? Or is DHB the best steroid for my goals?

Thanks

I understand.
Well, depending on what your cycle ends up being, a TRT dose of Test could be beneficial, and not overly Estrogenic.

I've heard a lot of good things about DHB, but haven't ran it yet.
There's a good chance I may try it in a few months.

 

[Old Witch]

I understand.
Well, depending on what your cycle ends up being, a TRT dose of Test could be beneficial, and not overly Estrogenic.

I've heard a lot of good things about DHB, but haven't ran it yet.
There's a good chance I may try it in a few months.

I concur, in fact up to 400mg test can be used without much worry about estrogen related issues for most guys. Professional coaches say 600mg. Personally I think over 500 is the tipping point for some bloating.

In any case, 250mg certainly won’t cause bloating, and bloating can be mitigated in many many ways.

 

[SpicedCider]

I understand.
Well, depending on what your cycle ends up being, a TRT dose of Test could be beneficial, and not overly Estrogenic.

I've heard a lot of good things about DHB, but haven't ran it yet.
There's a good chance I may try it in a few months.

In general, is it safe to say that (assuming estrogenic sides can be managed) it can only be a good thing to add test to a cycle, especially in terms of not just mood/well-being/confidence but for gains as well?

When it comes to estrogenic sides like bloating, can this be mitigated 100% by regularly taking an AI like arimidex? Or is *some* facial bloating an inevitability, even if someone engages in several sessions of cardio every week?

BTW, aside from DHB, are there any other compounds you'd recommend for someone who has the goal of gaining as much lean mass as possible? I know tren is unprecedented, but I honestly don't think I'm a good candidate for handling the mental/psychological sides at this stage of my life.

Thanks

 

[Old Witch]

Dhb, primobolan, masteron, tren (don’t recommend), anavar, winstrol, all lean hard dry gainers, some are better for a cut (mast, primo, anavar, winstrol, tren), some can add mass easily under the right conditions. (Dhb, primo, anavar, winstrol, tren)

 

[SpicedCider]

I concur, in fact up to 400mg test can be used without much worry about estrogen related issues for most guys. Professional coaches say 600mg. Personally I think over 500 is the tipping point for some bloating.

In any case, 250mg certainly won’t cause bloating, and bloating can be mitigated in many many ways.

The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards throwing in at least a low dose of test during my next cycle. I could really benefit from the positive mental effects.

Curious -- how much more do you guys think someone would gain on a DHB + test cycle, as compared to a standalone DHB cycle? Would the added testosterone really make that much of a difference in terms of lean muscle gains?

 

[Nac]

Dhb, primobolan, masteron, tren (don’t recommend), anavar, winstrol, all lean hard dry gainers, some are better for a cut (mast, primo, anavar, winstrol, tren), some can add mass easily under the right conditions. (Dhb, primo, anavar, winstrol, tren)

+ NPP

 

[Old Witch]

In general, is it safe to say that (assuming estrogenic sides can be managed) it can only be a good thing to add test to a cycle, especially in terms of not just mood/well-being/confidence but for gains as well?

When it comes to estrogenic sides like bloating, can this be mitigated 100% by regularly taking an AI like arimidex? Or is *some* facial bloating an inevitability, even if someone engages in several sessions of cardio every week?

BTW, aside from DHB, are there any other compounds you'd recommend for someone who has the goal of gaining as much lean mass as possible? I know tren is unprecedented, but I honestly don't think I'm a good candidate for handling the mental/psychological sides at this stage of my life.

Thanks

The properly dosed combination of a dht based compound and an AI can essentially inhibit bloating 100%, even at really huge doses of wet compounds.

 

[Renew1]

The properly dosed combination of a dht based compound and an AI can essentially inhibit bloating 100%, even at really huge doses of wet compounds.

I agree.

I'm one of the unfortunate ones who tend to bloat easily on Test, if I'm not careful.

But running it with a DHT (and AI as necessary) changes it totally.

SpicedCider, if your estrogen is kept in reasonable range, you won't get a bloated face.

 

[SpicedCider]

My only fear with running a DHT-based compound is in regards to the risk of hair loss. Mpb runs on both sides of my family (dad lost most of his hair), so this is something I'm really paranoid about.

 

[SpicedCider]

Dhb, primobolan, masteron, tren (don’t recommend), anavar, winstrol, all lean hard dry gainers, some are better for a cut (mast, primo, anavar, winstrol, tren), some can add mass easily under the right conditions. (Dhb, primo, anavar, winstrol, tren)

Appreciate the list. Out of all these, would you guys consider DHB to be the next-best lean mass gainer next to tren?

+ NPP

I actually thought about NPP or Deca since I have labrum and rotator cuff tears in my shoulders, but the side effects make me wary. Also, I remember someone posting something about how Deca actually makes joint problems worse... ? Need to do more research. Nac, do you think NPP is better for lean mass gains than DHB?

The properly dosed combination of a dht based compound and an AI can essentially inhibit bloating 100%, even at really huge doses of wet compounds.

I agree.

I'm one of the unfortunate ones who tend to bloat easily on Test, if I'm not careful.

But running it with a DHT (and AI as necessary) changes it totally.

SpicedCider, if your estrogen is kept in reasonable range, you won't get a bloated face.

Thanks for the advice. What matters more for suppressing bloat -- the use of an AI, or the use of a DHT-based compound? Can bloat be mitigated/prevented 100% with only the use of an AI?

 

[Renew1]

Appreciate the list. Out of all these, would you guys consider DHB to be the next-best lean mass gainer next to tren?



I actually thought about NPP or Deca since I have labrum and rotator cuff tears in my shoulders, but the side effects make me wary. Also, I remember someone posting something about how Deca actually makes joint problems worse... ? Need to do more research. Nac, do you think NPP is better for lean mass gains than DHB?





Thanks for the advice. What matters more for suppressing bloat -- the use of an AI, or the use of a DHT-based compound? Can bloat be mitigated/prevented 100% with only the use of an AI?

Having an AI is indispensable. A DHT is not.
Yes, bloat can be completely controlled with an AI.

 

[Nac]

SC, I have plans to run DHB later this year, so I cant compare it to NPP yet. I prefer NPP to deca, though. Ive run NPP at various amounts, 4-600mg is a general good sweet spot. I think 8wks is plenty with it, any longer and Id be throwing in an oral to stretch out the gains.

 

[Old Witch]

DHB is easily as strong as NPP, it just works kind of slow at first. NPP can rip your head right the **** off it works so fast.

 

[Old Witch]

DHB is easily as strong as NPP, it just works kind of slow at first. NPP can rip your head right the **** off it works so fast.

One of the best things I ever tried was stacking both. That first three weeks is all npp working its magic, and then the punch line hits when the dhb kicks in. Grew so much so fast I had stretch marks. So use that cocoa butter.

 

[jrock645]

This DHB stuff sounds mythical. No wonder I don’t see it anywhere.

 

[SpicedCider]

So at this point, I think it's down to either DHB or NPP as the centerpiece of my next cycle, although I'm heavily leaning towards DHB since I'd rather not deal with the prolactin-based issues NPP seems to be known for.

Would it make sense to take Turinabol as a "kicker" during the cycle (or perhaps even during the entire cycle)? Or are the effects of a mild steroid like TBol likely to be overshadowed by a much more powerful one like DHB? I would probably only do this if I decided to include testosterone as part of the cycle since shutdown would be an inevitability at that point.

Also, regarding the addition of testosterone injections -- as I mentioned above, I would really like to enjoy the positive mental/psychological effects (and long-term structural brain changes) that testosterone promotes in regards to becoming more confident, outgoing, inclined to chase tail, etc. If I want to experience these effects during my next cycle, is it pretty much a given that I'll have to include testosterone? Or could DHB promote these effects as well?

As I alluded to in an earlier post, I'll be on vacation (so to speak) for school in an area with a number of bars/clubs and will almost assuredly be in a position to get laid if I can become less inhibitive, more confident, more douchebag-style assertive, etc. Needless to say, this is not an opportunity I'm willing to let go to waste.

Thanks

 

[Old Witch]

In my mind/experience NPP is best for short runs under 8 weeks, dhb is better the longer you run it. Though, apparently, it can make your liver grow. My liver is normal size, and I’ve used a ****load of dhb. Used to drink heavily too. Smoked for 20 years too, even while using dhb and piles of other ****... I think if something was going to happen it would have. I was eating Tylenol and ibuprofen like candy too.

 

[Nac]

Would it make sense to take Turinabol as a "kicker" during the cycle (or perhaps even during the entire cycle)?

Tbol will tend to kick in under 2wks. Dhb, around 4 Id assume based on the cyp ester. Id be tempted to run tbol at 60-80 for 4-6 weeks, depending on tolerance. Just when the tbol will be tending to plateau (5wks+), the dhb will be peaking. So, minimal wasted overlap.

Thats the theory, anyway.

 

[SpicedCider]

Tbol will tend to kick in under 2wks. Dhb, around 4 Id assume based on the cyp ester. Id be tempted to run tbol at 60-80 for 4-6 weeks, depending on tolerance. Just when the tbol will be tending to plateau (5wks+), the dhb will be peaking. So, minimal wasted overlap.

Thats the theory, anyway.

I like your thinking on this. BTW, not sure what you mean when you say that DHB kicks in at around 4 ld? Did you mean to type 4 weeks?

Also, did you notice any positive mental/psychological effects from running DHB? Or am I going to have to inject test if I want the positive effects on mood, confidence, being more outgoing, etc.?

 

[Nac]

I like your thinking on this. BTW, not sure what you mean when you say that DHB kicks in at around 4 ld? Did you mean to type 4 weeks?

Yeah, typo.

Also, did you notice any positive mental/psychological effects from running DHB? Or am I going to have to inject test if I want the positive effects on mood, confidence, being more outgoing, etc.?

I havent run DHB yet, will do later this year.

Ive run a few compounds without test, and theres not many Id do so again. Trestolone the exception. At the very least Id do a "TRT" dose (200mg) with everything else.