**** these fucking squats.......****

[iron addict]

JJJD,

How about reponding to:

Stating that doing 7 sets of squats on day a week or doing 1 sets 7 days a week is one of the stupidest things I have heard come out of your mouth yet. If a lifter is doing

450 x 10 x 7

It might look something like this:

135 x 10
225 x 8
315 x 5
375 x 3
405 x 2
435 x 1
450 x 10 , 10 , 10, 10, 10, 10, 10

Now if he is going to do it 7 x a week it looks like:

135 x 10
225 x 8
315 x 5
375 x 3
405 x 2
435 x 1
450 x 10

135 x 10
225 x 8
315 x 5
375 x 3
405 x 2
435 x 1
450 x 10

135 x 10
225 x 8
315 x 5
375 x 3
405 x 2
435 x 1
450 x 10

135 x 10
225 x 8
315 x 5
375 x 3
405 x 2
435 x 1
450 x 10

135 x 10
225 x 8
315 x 5
375 x 3
405 x 2
435 x 1
450 x 10

135 x 10
225 x 8
315 x 5
375 x 3
405 x 2
435 x 1
450 x 10

135 x 10
225 x 8
315 x 5
375 x 3
405 x 2
435 x 1
450 x 10

Yeah, the workload is the same LMAO. Or are you sugesteing no warmups are needed LMAO.

If you look real hard you might find one of your beloved studies telling you that joints and connective tissue don't heal as fast as muscle tissue. The POUNDING you are suggesting will have most folks feeling like old folks in a few weeks.

Oh yeah, and PLEASE name ONE world class athlete YOU have worked with. And back it up....

 

[Manwhore]

Why are you guys even wasting your time argueing? It doesn't make sense. Show some pics and see whos workout is best

 

[iron addict]

Manwhore,

That simplistic method of determining which workout is best just doesn't workout in the real world. Here is the answer: look at some pics of Ronnie Colemen or Cultler. Now try their workout and tell us if its the "best", because after all they have the "best " physique. Please try their routines yourself and report back in your findings.

Iron Addict

 

[Debaser]

Why are you guys even wasting your time argueing? It doesn't make sense. Show some pics and see whos workout is best

Look up "ad hominem" and get back to me.

 

[Manwhore]

LOL Damn Iron,i was helping you out. I figured you were the bigger bodybuilder I know that isn't the way to do it.

 

[jjjd]

first of all, i never said either workout was best. it is a typical IA strawman. i gave ***A*** workout idea that might work GIVEN that the OP was at stalemate with his current protocol (which was squatting once a week). there is no BEST workout for any individual, let alone the fact that between individuals, there are numerous differences that make it a literal impossibility to develop a "best workout".

IA, as far as your example of the 450 lb squat thang, those are WAY too many warmups (imo). many lifters i have worked with (and under) would consider it the same way.

if i am going to squat 450 lbs (and i want to use my warmup as WARMUPs vs. as part of the workout itself) a more logical progression would be

stretch with the bar for a minute or two (i do this with ALL workouts, in general. not just squat workouts)

135 * 3 (with a long pause at bottom)
225 * 3
315 * 3
365 * 3
405 * 1
450 * 10

this warmup will have little to no appreciable affect on workload total, etc (when calculating weekly loading for the purposes of volume)

i have no problem with squatitng once a week. it's a good protocol. it's what i am doing right now, for instance.

however, GIVEN the OP's lack of progress, i would (and still do) recommend a change of protocol (increasing FREQUENCY). i also recommended SUBMAXIMAL loading (with some compensatory acceleration) which the OP admittedly did NOT follow

 

[VanillaGorilla]

My first response in looking at your original program is that you want to put on strength and you are following a body building type of protocol. If you want to put on strength try the West Side program. You could also try wave loading or the 1 to 6 routine. They are ways to trick your neurological system into putting on strength.
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459575

The other thing could be you have some imbalances in you muscle or something else going on.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I think allot of people really don't understand that the body will adapt to any training protocol. A lack of progress does not necessarily mean that you are over training. Many times it simply means that your body has adapted to the current routine you may be on. This is especially evident of people who follow the HIT religion. No routine will work for ever. It will take the body 3 to 6 weeks to adapt. Yet, people who are disciples of HIT usually have the same response to every training problem..........lower the volume is their mantra.
Mike Menzer is an extreme example of the HIT training protocol but severs as a good example of some major flaws of logic. To be fair Mike had some major psychological problems. Mike liked to throw some asinine comparisons out there, like comparing how a woman gets pregnant to how the body puts on muscle. Mike said " it takes only one sperm to get a woman pregnant" but it apparently didn't occur to him that more them one sperm cell comes out. Another favorite example he used was comparing the amount of weight Casey Victor gained using HIT to the amount of weight Arnold gained when competing in the Olympia. Both men were under weight but here is the problem, both men were using steroids, Arnold was getting ready for a contest and Casey Victor wasn't. Also even if they were using the exact same dosage of the same steroids every body reacts differently to certain drugs.
Another problem with the rationale of HIT is that you should get stronger each work out either by completing more repetitions or by increasing the weight. It's there contention that using HIT you will be able to do this. That's great but "in the real world" as some put this doesn't exactly work out. This is apparent by the lack of 800 lb bench, 1000 squats, 1000 deadlifts, and 315lb barbell curls. You will hit a plateau in any training program you use. If the human body was as frail and weak as some in HIT camp believe we would have been extinct along time ago.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

That is a BIG problem with genetic freaks on LOTS of gear that have zero experience training those with less than great genetics. They erroneously believe that since it worked for them anyone can do the same. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Don't you and DC advocate taking steroids IA? Has it occurred to you that maybe it's the steroid rather than the HIT? Do you see a flaw in logic there? The average gym rat that does take steroids doesn't have the money to spend of the drugs a pro takes. Flex Wheeler said it cost him $10,000 to do one contest. The pros are taking GH, thyroid drugs, insulin, many different kinds of steroids, and I really don't want to know what else. To say that they are genetic freaks is ridiculous. They are pharmaceutical freaks. If you put one of the people you were training on a pros drug protocol they would put on a good amount a muscle to put it mildly regardless of their training methodology.

I train 50-75 people at any one time and have been training people for 10 years now. You are the one that has limited experience as your all comes from fucking books. Have you REALLY spent a bunch of time in all the countries outside of the US, NO, you have just read a bunch of **** about how elite caliber athletes train and are know trying to transition this to bodybuilders.

What does that prove? I see lots of trainers with a huge clientele who don't know what they are talking about. Step into a busy golds gym any time....... The trainer who looks like a ken doll with blond highlights in his hair hasn't taken one A and P class and most likely just reads muscle and fitness. By your rationale because he trains allot of people that equates into that he knows what he is talking about?

 

[iron addict]

Vanilla, While I do a lot of HIT taining I also utilize volume work for many of my clients and myself. What I won't do is put people that are not volume responders on a high volume routine, and the truth is a LOT of genetically typical lifter who DON'T use gear do extremly poorly on high volume high frequency loads.

Saying that the body will adapt to ANY training protocol as you stated is just pure bullshit. It won't--we all have thresholds, and some are much higher and lower than others.

I know plenty of folks that do, and have done HUGE doses on a long term basis. Do they get big? Hell yeah! Pro level big, **** no! Genetics do play a big role and beleiving otherwise is just showing your lack of experience.

Iron Addict

 

[iron addict]

JJJD, Glad that warmup light works well for you, my knees and back, and a large percentage of the people need a lot more than that. With that limited amount of warmup my knees would feel like they were jit with hammers when done. Your mileage may vary.

Iron Addict

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I know plenty of folks that do, and have done HUGE doses of EVERYTHING on a long term basis. Do they get big? Hell yeah! Pro level big, **** no! Genetics do play a big role and believing otherwise is just showing your lack of experience.

Are they spending 10,000 or more on Drugs over a few months? I doubt it. When Adreas Munzer died they had a list of everything he took and estimated that he spent more than $100,000 a year on drugs. Are you telling me the people you know are spending that much? Hell no. Most people can't afford that or have the access to the quality of drugs the pros get. I wasn't saying that genetics have no part in any of it but saying that the pros are genetic freaks when they have a pharmacy in their blood stream is intellectually dishonest. My point is that you can't say your training method works or a particular program works when you throw steroids into the mix.

Saying that the body will adapt to ANY training protocol as you stated is just pure bullshit. It won't--we all have thresholds, and some are much higher and lower than others.

Maybe it won't adapt to 1 rep maxes done 8 hours a day 7 days a week but the body will adapt to most sane training protocols. Professional movers and construction workers are an example of this.

Tell all the readers here that have done the old bodyparts twice a week 20 sets a bodypart their bodies were adapting just fine. I know most people attempting this go NOWHERE.

That's probably because they did it too long. Doing a huge amount of volume training works for a short period of time. When you are on that type of training program you are headed for over training state fast. It would make sense to do it for 3 weeks then back off for 3 weeks using HIT or lower volume. The opposite happens if you stay on a HIT program too long. Your body adapts to it and you are no longer making progress.
The truth is the both will work for a short period of time and they will both cease to work over time.
HIT is really has become like a religion. Anyone that does well on high volume is a genetic freak and anyone that doesn't is just the average hard gainer. If you do well on high volume you would have done better on low volume. You can't win arguing with that view point. Unfortunately the person with that view point is going to run into a big plateau for a long time until they change their training style.

 

[iron addict]

Vanilla, tell me how big those movers and construction workers are? Shitty example.

And as far as gear use goes, maybe not 10k a month but I know and have known LOTS of guys doing a shitload of growth, igf, 5-6 grams a week and slin. Big? Yes! Pro level big-**** no! I've met tons of guys with great genetics that got bigger clean than most guys will ever get while on. Genetics matter--period.

I do a lot of waved volume work for myself and those I train, and I gotta tell you, there are LOTS that get absolutely NOTHING out of volume even for short periods of time. We are truly not all created equal. Beleive what you want. Train a lot of people over time and you will come to understand this.

Iron Addict

 

[VanillaGorilla]

And as far as gear use goes, maybe not 10k a month but I know and have known LOTS of guys doing a shitload of growth, igf, 5-6 grams a week and slin. Big? Yes! Pro level big-**** no! I've met tons of guys with great genetics that got bigger clean than most guys will ever get while on. Genetics matter--period.

They sure as hell aren't taking 100,000 dollars a years worth. If Munzer was spending that amount they all spend that amount. Therefore you can't say that they are that big simply because of genetics. Their genetics in response to drugs maybe. The fact is the pros look like pros because of steroids not because of their training methodology.

Vanilla, tell me how big those movers and construction workers are? Shitty example.

I have seen some pretty big guys who have just worked construction or moved peoples furniture. If the HIT people were right these people would all be dead...lol j/k

I do a lot of waved volume work for myself and those I train, and I gotta tell you, there are LOTS that get absolutely NOTHING out of volume even for short periods of time. We are truly not all created equal. Beleive what you want. Train a lot of people over time and you will come to understand this.

Just because you train allot of people doesn't equate to you knowing what you are talking about. I am not saying you don't but lets face it any one can get certified and there are allot of trainers out there who simply look good so people want to hire them. I have seen many of these trainers and they don't impress me. Most of them don't really know all that much. So simply saying you train people doesn't really mean much to me.
There are also "LOTs" who get absolutely nothing out of HIT. So what's you point? For some reason you think people who get results from high volume are genetic freaks. By that same rationale I could say that the people who grow on only a few sets per body parts are the genetic freaks.I have seen several people on various message boards who swear by HIT, then in the same breath mention that they have only been training a year and following some self appointed gurus steroid recommendations. It has never occurred to them that maybe it's the drugs and/ or the fact that they haven't been training very long. In high school lifters it's common to go from bench pressing 135 to 225 or close to it in a short period of time. That's close to 100lb increase. Do they continue to put on 100 lbs in that short of time? No. It is harder to go from 225 to 315. It's even harder to go to 315 to 405. As Dave Tate says the program that got you to 405 probably won't get you to 500 or 600 lbs. People weight training programs must constantly be changing and evolving. Being dogmatic about one particular training methodology isn't going to get most people the goals they are after. If you get some great results doing 20 rep squats that's great but it's not going to last for ever. Unfortunately people mistake growth bursts they get and think they have found the holy grail of training. They ignore other points of view, worship the creator of the program, and often fool themselves into thinking they are making progress when the reality is they are not. I have grown in size and strength doing 20 rep work, 10 sets of ten, 5 sets of 5, ect. I have grown working body parts once a week, twice a week and three times a week. I have grown working out twice a day 6 days a week and 3 times a week. Most training programs will work the biggest mistake people make is falling into to this routine is the only way trap and being afraid that if they try something new or fearing that if they do more than two sets per body part that they'll deflate.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

That simplistic method of determining which workout is best just doesn't workout in the real world. Here is the answer: look at some pics of Ronnie Colemen or Cultler. Now try their workout and tell us if its the "best", because after all they have the "best " physique. Please try their routines yourself and report back in your findings.

The problem is they often don't tell us how they really train. Articles by many pros are ghost written in the rags or it's not how they really train. What you should have said take an excess $100,000 of drugs in a year and report back to us.

 

[iron addict]

Vanilla, I plainy stated I use both HIT and volume work with myself and those I train. Whats your point?

if you think construction workers and movers are big you havent seen any "real" bodybuilders in person.

You have a lot of learning to do if you really beleive that the pro's are only pro's because of their gear use. They are pro's because of their genetics and their gear use. You can't take joe average, put him on the 10K a month stack and get a pro from this....sorry. Do you even use gear yourself?

Iron Addict

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Vanilla, I plainy stated I use both HIT and volume work with myself and those I train. Whats your point?

My point is that you continually say that the HIT training program is for average everyday trainers but anyone who makes progress on a high or higher volume program must be genetically gifted.

if you think construction workers and movers are big you havent seen any "real" bodybuilders in person.

I have seen Cutler in person. Are movers and construction workers as big as he is? No but they have got some size. If HITers were right they wouldn't have any. This is off the topic but I saw WWE's john Cena in person and looked a hell of allot better than Cutler did. He doesn't look that big on TV for some reason. It makes you wonder what some of the bigger guys like Scott Steiner or Batesta would look like.

You have a lot of learning to do if you really beleive that the pro's are only pro's because of their gear use.You can't take joe average, put him on the 10K a month stack and get a pro from this....sorry.

You simply can't say that. 95% of the population does not have that amount of money to spend on juice. Have you tried to do this? My guess is no. How good do you think the pros would look if they stopped taking drugs all together or never took any drugs to begin with? My guess is they would look pretty close to Joe average. Although previous steroid users would have more muscle obviously. Does every body put on muscle at the same rate? No. Genetics do play a role in it but when you throw over 100,000 a year in drugs into the mix it plays much less of a role.

 

[iron addict]

How many cycles have you REALLY done?

Iron Addict

 

[VanillaGorilla]

How many cycles have you REALLY done?

What does that have to do with anything? I have never said that I did any cycles. The real question is what would a pro look like having never done steriods or what would a pro look like not taking steriods any more?

 

[Manwhore]

Let me just cut in here,for a min.... It's obvious the Pros are as big as they are because of drugs. Look at the past Pros,like Arnold. I don't believe he stacked many drugs or many mgs in his cycles,and i know guys who are his height,weight,and BF%. Ronnie wasn't always as big as he is now. Is it fair to say that most of the size he gained was gained when he became very close to Pro statues. At this time,he was able to stack more drugs at higher MGs,because he was making more money? Just want to add one more thing... Sometimes it takes time for the body to adjust to a different routine...Now i know this has been said but i'm not talking adjusting as in needing to change the routine,i'm talking about adjusting as far as getting results. Some people lose strength on new programs but it doesn't mean the program isn't a good one. If given enough time,the body will adjust to the added stress and become stronger. Correct me,if i'm wrong,but i don't believe i am.

 

[bigmark1972]

Ronnie wasn't always as big as he is now.

No, but ronnie was bigger than most of us here before he ever touched a weight. His arms were almost 20" when he started training.

Drugs, yes genetics, yes, good training, yes, good nutrition, yes. This is what it takes to be the best no amount of drugs alone will build a champion.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

No, but ronnie was bigger than most of us here before he ever touched a weight. His arms were almost 20" when he started training.

No they weren't. I have seen old pictures back in 92 when he competed and he is nothing like he is today. He's been using insane doses for a VERY long time. The guy is 40.

I agree that all of those things above contribute but the freakishness of competitors now is because of drugs. Their growth is not natural by any stretch of the imagination. Distended bellies because of high GH and IGF-1 is not genetics, its drug induced as is most of their freakish growth.

 

[Manwhore]

No, but ronnie was bigger than most of us here before he ever touched a weight. His arms were almost 20" when he started training.

Drugs, yes genetics, yes, good training, yes, good nutrition, yes. This is what it takes to be the best no amount of drugs alone will build a champion.

i never meant it was the drugs,that were responsible for ALL his muscle growth,but i thought that was just obvious.... I would like to see some MORE pics of Ronnie early in his career,because i have a hard time believing he had 20" arms,unless they were 20"s of fat

 

[ManBeast]

Ronnie was a PL way before he was a BB...

ManBeast

 

[bigmark1972]

He was introduced into competition bodybuilding by Brian Dobson, the owner of Arlington's Metro Flex Gym. His first bodybuilding contest was in April 1990, at the Mr. Texas. He won first heavyweight and overall. His contest weight is around 229 pounds, while his offseason weight hovers around 250.

He was still very big even back then, but I do agree the drugs have taken him to where he is now. Sometimes I wonder what I could have done with myself if I had no regular job and 10g's a month to spend on gear and food. When I was younger, I always wanted to be a competative bb'er but the amount of drugs I would have to take is just stupid. Honestly I am surprised he still has a functioning organ in his body.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

They probably don't, you just don't know about it. Half these guys can't have kids anymore. He did win his first contest but he was training for other sports before that. Nobody saying genetics aren't playing a role but its the drugs that give that freakish size, not genetics. At that point your WAY past your genetic potential anyway and it plays more a role on proportion than anything. I mean most of these guys are around the same sizse (give or take difference in height) but its the ones that are HUGE and symmetrical that win. You can clearly see the difference here when you look at Coleman compared toi Ruhl. THe whole stage is freakish because of the drugs and amounts used.

I would love to see what Arnold would look like with the amount they use today.

 

[bigmark1972]

I would love to see what Arnold would look like with the amount they use today.

I agree, I wonder that myself often. He'd probably be in the ground already if he had the same drugs/dosages they are using now.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

No, but ronnie was bigger than most of us here before he ever touched a weight. His arms were almost 20" when he started training.

He was 215 back around 92 when he started wasn't he? The rags always try to make the pros out to be genetically superior. Especially the ones that don't write about drugs. I read some where that Cutler benched 315 the first time he touched a weight. I have run into a few people that new him when he started out who said it wasn't true. They will always exaggerate.It makes the pros look better and sells more mags.

 

[bigmark1972]

He was 215 back around 92 when he started wasn't he?

Nope he won his first contest very easily way back in 90.

His first bodybuilding contest was in April 1990, at the Mr. Texas. He won first heavyweight and overall. His contest weight is around 229 pounds, while his offseason weight hovers around 250.

I agree they do exaggerate, but coleman has great genetics no doubt about it.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I agree they do exaggerate, but coleman has great genetics no doubt about it.

No question about that.

 

[Scottyo]

Just a point to add since people are again discussing drugs vs. genetics. Genetics effect things in many different ways. Some people are genetically gifted to be big, lean, and strong etc. WITHOUT drugs. Others need drugs to get on par with the first individual.
Yet there are also other individuals who might only be "joe average" without drugs, but have great genetics FOR DRUGS. Ie, more receptive to androgen dosing and more androgen receptors etc. I think this may be the case with many pro level bodybuilders.

 

[bigmark1972]

Yet there are also other individuals who might only be "joe average" without drugs, but have great genetics FOR DRUGS. Ie, more receptive to androgen dosing and more androgen receptors etc. I think this may be the case with many pro level bodybuilders.

I agree people respond differently to drugs, but drugs are not going to make someone have tight/small joints, long muscle bellies, narrow waist, wide shoulder structure, etc.
Some people have genetics to be a champion bb'er aka Arnold and some do not.

 

[Manwhore]

There is no way you can tell someones genetic potential. I've seen people,with narrow...very narrow shoulders,gain a tremendous amount of muscle,and you would never ever guess where they started from,unless you saw pictures. After all,didn't Tom Platz start out with narrow shoulders and wide hips? Wasn't Arnold 6'3" at 235lbs? To me,that's not a very hard weight to reach,even with very low BF,when your training and diet are very strict. It,also,doesn't seem too hard,if you were training serious,for as long as he was. Until i saw it for myself,i thought all those very skinny guys,should just give up bodybuilding. I thought that it was just impossible for them to gain any decent amount of muscle mass. I was very wrong. If Arnold was the Terminator would he be so popular in the BBing community. If he wasn't a millionaire before he ever won his 1st Pro Competition,would he have won all the others? Maybe

 

[bigmark1972]

There is no way you can tell someones genetic potential

I don't even know what to say to that?

After all,didn't Tom Platz start out with narrow shoulders and wide hips? Wasn't Arnold 6'3" at 235lbs

Tom Platz was never and could never be as impressive, succesful a bb'er as Arnold was.

I've seen people,with narrow...very narrow shoulders,gain a tremendous amount of muscle,and you would never ever guess where they started from,unless you saw pictures.

Perhaps but, someone with wider hips than shoulders will never be a top level bb.

Wasn't Arnold 6'3" at 235lbs? To me,that's not a very hard weight to reach,even with very low BF,when your training and diet are very strict.

His highest contest weight was 242 and his arms 23" at the peak try and achieve that and tell me it was not very hard.

If Arnold was the Terminator would he be so popular in the BBing community. If he wasn't a millionaire before he ever won his 1st Pro Competition

uhhhhh, Arnold success as a BB'er was YEARS AND YEARS before terminator, and he was far from rich at the beginning, in fact he could hardly afford to eat correctly.

In 1965 when Arnold turned 18 he joined the Austrian Army for mandatory service. His parents hoped the time in the army would cure him of his bodybuilding obsession. However, Arnold had a different idea. While in basic training, he found out that the Junior Mr. Europe bodybuilding competition was going to be held in nearby Stuttgard. Arnold went AWOL from the army to compete and won the with a perfect 300 point score, the first anyone had ever had a perfect score.
He was far from rich when he turned pro and won his first show as a pro.
We are going to have to agree to disagree here.:blink:

 

[Manwhore]

I don't even know what to say to that?

...... That's OK,You can just agree

Tom Platz was never and could never be as impressive, succesful a bb'er as Arnold was.

Platz would crush Arnold

Perhaps but, someone with wider hips than shoulders will never be a top level bb.

Back to statement #1

His highest contest weight was 242 and his arms 23" at the peak try and achieve that and tell me it was not very hard.

Mentzer said the Pros always exaggerated about their arm size. Mentzer said his arms were in the 18s in comp condition,so i doubt very much Arnolds were 23" comp condition. Maybe off season,but that's not that hard to achieve with layers of fat on them.

uhhhhh, Arnold success as a BB'er was YEARS AND YEARS before terminator, and he was far from rich at the beginning, in fact he could hardly afford to eat correctly.

Well,i heard he made his 1st million selling BBing supps before he was ever a Pro. Even if he didn't,you can't tell me his popularity outside of BBing didn't help his BBing career.

In 1965 when Arnold turned 18 he joined the Austrian Army for mandatory service. His parents hoped the time in the army would cure him of his bodybuilding obsession. However, Arnold had a different idea. While in basic training, he found out that the Junior Mr. Europe bodybuilding competition was going to be held in nearby Stuttgard. Arnold went AWOL from the army to compete and won the with a perfect 300 point score, the first anyone had ever had a perfect score.
.:blink:

I'm happy for him

 

[Scottyo]

Ummm I dont mean to get in the middle of this but if you think Platz would crush Arnold, I think you have a different standard of bodybuilding. period.

 

[bigmark1972]

Platz would crush Arnold

oke:

Dude, wake up your dreaming again

I needed a laugh today thanks!

Platz was impressive in his own right back in the day, I always felt sorry for him actually but thats the breaks. As hard as he worked and as much pain and training he endured he just was not dealt a winning hand as far as genes go for being on the same level as Arnold was/is.

As far as Mentzner goes I have a degree of respect for him on some levels, but it is fairly evident if you have read all of his books that he was always very jealous of Arnold. He was also a nut, but he was one of us just the same and he has my respect for what he accomplished. I agree with some of his training theories, but only to a certain level.

 

[Manwhore]

I'm saying Arnold's money and movie career helped his BBing career,which is why he is so well known in BBing community. Compairing Arnold to Tom Platz is like compairing Frank Zane to Lee Priest. Some like a smaller Male model look and some like a monster BBing look. My point was: Tom Platz was born with narrow shoulders and wide hips,so how can someone say that someone with these traits not be a competitive BBer? What does Arnold have that Platz doesn't? Before you answer,just let me say that i don't care about either one of them. I don't read about BBers careers and don't really care about them,but i can see with my own eyes,that Arnold didn't even have CLOSE to the muscle mass Platz had or still has. Are you counting who puts on a better performance and dances on stage the best,because i'm talking about size and cuts,which comes with size. I'll let someone else post a pic of Arnold so you can get the best one,because i can't find any.

 

[Manwhore]

Platz was impressive in his own right back in the day, I always felt sorry for him actually but thats the breaks. As hard as he worked and as much pain and training he endured he just was not dealt a winning hand as far as genes go for being on the same level as Arnold was/is.

Well now you said it yourself. If Platz was born with narrow shoulders and wide hips(bad bbing genetics)then how did he become a Pro bber? He was 5'8" and i believe he outweighed Arnold by a ton... give or take a few hundred lbs

As far as Mentzner goes I have a degree of respect for him on some levels, but it is fairly evident if you have read all of his books that he was always very jealous of Arnold.

Yes,because he thought Arnold got extra special treatment,because of his fame outside of BBing,and i believe he was right.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I'm saying Arnold's money and movie career helped his BBing career,which is why he is so well known in BBing community.

Arnold didn't really have a movie career untill after he was finished compeating. He was in a really bad Hercules movie in the early 70s but that was about it. He didn't have any money when he first came here either. By 75 I think he had some money though.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

The point is that genetics play a role but they do not keep you off the stage if you work your ass off and diet/train properly. Narrown shoulders, wide hips, large head, big feet, who cares. Whatever you were born with it is workable to a point that you can tranin and eventually be a successful BB'er. Anyone saying you can't is just holding you back because they haven't been able to accomplish it themselves. Does Ronnie have superior genetics? Sure he does but does that mean the rest don't belong on stage? No.

 

[bigmark1972]

Anyone saying you can't is just holding you back because they haven't been able to accomplish it themselves. Does Ronnie have superior genetics? Sure he does but does that mean the rest don't belong on stage? No.

I am in agreement with you I think, my thinking is basically yes virtually anyone with enough hard work and dedication and tons of drugs if needed can be on a stage and not be out of place unless it is an upper level competition.

Dan Duchaine would be a perfect example for this he used ton's of drugs, made his own actually, and really was on the cutting edge of supplementation. I can't say how he trained or ate but he did know his stuff so I would assume he had that covered. He still looked like **** even at his best and would have been laughed off of any national level competition stage.

My real thinking on this is that to reach the elite status of one of the top pro's, to be the best of the best you gotta have the genes as well. I don't like to piss on anyones parade but to think anyone with any genetics could be the next Mr O is a pipe dream. I know you are not or at least I hope you are not saying that. Luckily virtually no one here is looking to be the next Mr Olympia I am sure.

At this point to win the Mr O or even to make it as a pro you have to be ready to die for your wishes, these guys are getting organ transplants left and right. I think it has gotten to a point where it has ruined the sport, I mean who really wants to have to take 15,000 worth of drugs a month to be competative? I would really, really like to get a peek at Ronnie Colemans Med file I bet it would be most interresting.

I wish the sport was where it was in the days of Arnold, Lou, and Franco where you could be on top without slowly killing yourself with obsene amounts of drugs. Lou Ferrigno still looks incredible after all these years, most of these new pro's will be in the box by the time they are his age.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I agree, to be the best of the best you need to have it all. I am talking bodybuilding on the competitive level as a whole.

 

[jjjd]

you have to have good genetics to get to the upper echelons of BBing.

period.

you need more than genetics, of course (training, drugs, discipline, etc.) but you cannot get there without a certain level of giftedness.

that's true of many, if not, most sports.

look at elite sprinters. is it merely coincidence that every biopsy of an elite sprinter i have ever seen shows very high fast twitch/slow twitch ratio?

or that every single sprinter in the world who has broken 10 seconds in the 100 meter is of west african heritage?

of course not.

to quote sam mussabini from chariots of fire, "you can't put in what God left out"

 

[maggmaster]

The slow fast twitch conversion it excepted in exercise science as fact, explosive lifting and sprinting converts slower fiber types to faster fiber types so the sprinter example wasnt a great one. If they train by sprinting and olympic lifting of course they will have a large number of type 1 fibers! The west African thing is much better. Their genetics and adaption are the only possible explanation for their dominance. Kenyans and distance running are another great example.

 

[jjjd]

i am aware of conversion factors. however, the exceptionally high ratio of f/s twitch fibers are (imo) evidence that there is a genetic component to this. fiber type conversion is NOT going to give you 90% + fast twitch fibers in your legs, if you are not genetically gifted already

i am TOTALLY convinced the WA sprint dominance is genetic

as for the east african (kenyan) thing, i think the jury is still out.

there are a lot of environmental factors to consider, which is not the case with WA heritage sprinters (who come from nations all over the earth - namibia, the UK, Canada, the US, etc.) whereas kenyan distance dominance does have several large environmental factors.

i am not saying the kenyans are not gentically dominant. i am saying i am not convinced that this is the case--- yet

 

[willieman]

Arnold didn't really have a movie career untill after he was finished compeating. He was in a really bad Hercules movie in the early 70s but that was about it. He didn't have any money when he first came here either. By 75 I think he had some money though.

And if it wasn't for friends like Jim Lorimer, who owns the world gyms in Columbus, and is a partner with Arnold in the Classic...and others who really helped Arnold out in the beginning, he might of never been the Terminator.But let's face it, Arnold is a person who would of been successful no matter what, it is the drive that makes him.

who are all the bodybuilders that are getting organ transplants left and right?I know Flex is, but what others constitute a comment like that?