The Lean Gains / IF learning and Discussion Log

[Red Dog]

This is very interesting, do you guys have any links that talks extensively on this?

The main principles are here: http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

But that blog/site contains tons of articles that delve more specifically into the principles. Kleen's original post also has a bunch of good links in it, or you could just browse around the categories on leangains.com.

 

[Red Dog]

No, I'm making it up as I go, based off what I know about IF.

Basically:

Lifting Day = Eat like a god

Recovery Day = Food? What's that?

What do your total calories and CHO intake look like on your recovery days Resolve?

 

[Resolve]

What do your total calories and CHO intake look like on your recovery days Resolve?

Well, today was a recovery day. I consumed:

A large spinach salad with chopped mushrooms and a bit of baked rutabaga crumbled over top. I used some hummus and balsamic vinegar for dressing.
Topped this with 10oz chicken breast. That's it.

So...20g carbs? I don't know...


And I'm bulking right now too

 

[taylorgains96]

The main principles are here:

But that blog/site contains tons of articles that delve more specifically into the principles. Kleen's original post also has a bunch of good links in it, or you could just browse around the categories on leangains.com.

Thanks!

 

[Red Dog]

Well, today was a recovery day. I consumed:

A large spinach salad with chopped mushrooms and a bit of baked rutabaga crumbled over top. I used some hummus and balsamic vinegar for dressing.
Topped this with 10oz chicken breast. That's it.

So...20g carbs? I don't know...


And I'm bulking right now too

Oh wow, so what's the rationale behind cutting calories so severely on rest days? I've heard Berkhan say that protein should stay high even on off days and never caught where he said to drop them real low on rest days. I've only seen his recommendation of roughly 80% of maintenance calories.

Or is this just an alteration that you've found to be particularly effective or useful through experience?

 

[sapentia]

Great thread Kleen! I've been running IF since last July whether cutting or gaining. It has made eating much simpler for me. I eat starting at 1pm and finish at 9pm with my workouts starting around 5pm. Only positives so far though I still want to shed a few more bodyfat% points. It's so freeing not having to worry about eating every few hours or when I wake up. Thanks Martin!

 

[Mrodz]

Ok getting a word in to get subbed, don't have time right now to read it but will sooooon

 

[Resolve]

Oh wow, so what's the rationale behind cutting calories so severely on rest days? I've heard Berkhan say that protein should stay high even on off days and never caught where he said to drop them real low on rest days. I've only seen his recommendation of roughly 80% of maintenance calories.

Or is this just an alteration that you've found to be particularly effective or useful through experience?

Martin talks about taking cals real low in his recomp program.

I don't consider him the be-all/end-all authority on fasting though. I'm gaining weight and strength on my current regimen, but it's still a bit early before I would recommend anyone else try this.. I take leucine throughout my fast.

It's the same basic premise as LG - don't eat for a while, then eat a lot within a given time frame. I've just lengthened the fast to about 24hr and the eating window to about 12.

 

[mkretz]

when u guys are trying to get ur cals in.....on a lifting day lets say, do u jsut eat whatever u want, or do u still try to stick with low carb or "healthier" foods, or do u go hit up mcdonalds lol

 

[JudgementDay]

In for the info :study:

x2 Great thread!

 

[RickRock13]

when u guys are trying to get ur cals in.....on a lifting day lets say, do u jsut eat whatever u want, or do u still try to stick with low carb or "healthier" foods, or do u go hit up mcdonalds lol

The diet is much more lenient on lifting days, but not a free for all either. I still have a caloric count I aim for as well as macro ratios. Its rare for me to get something like mcdonalds, though I have. I usually eat mostly clean even on lifting days, but may have higher Carb meals like pasta

 

[DreamWeaver]

The diet is much more lenient on lifting days, but not a free for all either. I still have a caloric count I aim for as well as macro ratios. Its rare for me to get something like mcdonalds, though I have. I usually eat mostly clean even on lifting days, but may have higher Carb meals like pasta

Yah I would never do MD's or anything like that.. my idea of cheating is burgers that are 90% lean with multigrain flat bread buns and a couple cups frozen yogurt for desert.. which was last nights dinner... I am very satisfied with this style of eating.

 

[MidwestBeast]

How often do you guys utilize leucine or BCAAs during your fasted portion?

On week days, I wake around 6:30-7:00 for work, eat first meal between 12:00 and 12:30 and then wrap up accordingly at 8:00 or 8:30 (working out at ~4:30 on non-off days), then go to bed usually around 11:00.

Do / would you hit some aminos upon rising, a few hours later and then just before bed? I haven't been hitting any during the fast, lately, but I was doing the above at first. The one thing is that I'm trying to avoid the morning dosing because I don't know if it would screw with my Synthroid or not (since it's supposed to be no food for at least an hour after dosing).

 

[DreamWeaver]

How often do you guys utilize leucine or BCAAs during your fasted portion?

On week days, I wake around 6:30-7:00 for work, eat first meal between 12:00 and 12:30 and then wrap up accordingly at 8:00 or 8:30 (working out at ~4:30 on non-off days), then go to bed usually around 11:00.

Do / would you hit some aminos upon rising, a few hours later and then just before bed? I haven't been hitting any during the fast, lately, but I was doing the above at first. The one thing is that I'm trying to avoid the morning dosing because I don't know if it would screw with my Synthroid or not (since it's supposed to be no food for at least an hour after dosing).

I get up take a BCAA/EAA drink and one halfway between around 9am and then I break myh fast around noon. As i go into more of a calorie deficit I may increase amonts... I will be using BCAA's around workouts at that time also. Right now I am in a fed state and eating pretty good so am just using my regular shake after workout.

 

[Sik]

Normally i read a lot here, but never post a lot.

regarding this subject, i follow this almost 1 year now. And love love it.

i believe everyone should found a regimen for a diet that ADAPTS YOU, and not you adapts the regimen.

So its so easy to eat BIG, only 3 times/day!

As an example yesterday was a workout day i eat:

meal 1 12h pm - 50g protein (+200g of beef) + veggies + 30g EVOO ~500kcals
meal 2 16h pm - 50 protein (60g casein powder) + 30g extra virgin coconut oil ~500kcals
meal 3 epic meal lol 20h pm - 100g protein (around 400g chicken) + 200g or brown rice + 100 strawberries ~under 1500kcal

I'm not related only with calories, as i know how many grams i'm eating and change the calories based on the grams and it easier.

So is an easy sample of my menu with not so many calories, and still i can enjoy eating.

If your train require more carbs i will easily add an intra workout drink with plenty of amino's and a carb source. Depending on that, some times i add 50g carbs peri workout and cut a little PWO.

Cheers

 

[DreamWeaver]

Normally i read a lot here, but never post a lot.

regarding this subject, i follow this almost 1 year now. And love love it.

i believe everyone should found a regimen for a diet that ADAPTS YOU, and not you adapts the regimen.

So its so easy to eat BIG, only 3 times/day!

As an example yesterday was a workout day i eat:

meal 1 12h pm - 50g protein (+200g of beef) + veggies + 30g EVOO ~500kcals
meal 2 16h pm - 50 protein (60g casein powder) + 30g extra virgin coconut oil ~500kcals
meal 3 epic meal lol 20h pm - 100g protein (around 400g chicken) + 200g or brown rice + 100 strawberries ~under 1500kcal

I'm not related only with calories, as i know how many grams i'm eating and change the calories based on the grams and it easier.

So is an easy sample of my menu with not so many calories, and still i can enjoy eating.

If your train require more carbs i will easily add an intra workout drink with plenty of amino's and a carb source. Depending on that, some times i add 50g carbs peri workout and cut a little PWO.

Cheers

Yah that's what I have been telling everyone this is the way I should have been eating all along... when I think of all the time I spent trying to adapt myself to dieting schemes that did not match my needs...

 

[Sik]

I think everyone shall found the way they easily keep progress.

I tried to apply IF methods with a lot of people and some of them are really impossible because it does not adapts.

But for someone with this requirements just give it a shoot:

- easily eat big meals
- like to be satiated after meals
- easily eat more then 1k with dense calories healthy food
- maybe include here slow metabolism, or at least not very quick metabolisms

so try it! of course IMO for 6k kcal became very hard to eat 3x 2k kcals meals, not for me will be difficult lol but someone that is looking to between 3-4k kcals it maybe is an easy way to do it.

It is so good to have a 2k kcals dinner with a big bowl of Rice and half a kg of chicken

 

[RickRock13]

How often do you guys utilize leucine or BCAAs during your fasted portion?

On week days, I wake around 6:30-7:00 for work, eat first meal between 12:00 and 12:30 and then wrap up accordingly at 8:00 or 8:30 (working out at ~4:30 on non-off days), then go to bed usually around 11:00.

Do / would you hit some aminos upon rising, a few hours later and then just before bed? I haven't been hitting any during the fast, lately, but I was doing the above at first. The one thing is that I'm trying to avoid the morning dosing because I don't know if it would screw with my Synthroid or not (since it's supposed to be no food for at least an hour after dosing).

I wake up at 5-5:30 and I have BCAAs (10g) at 6. Work out 6:15-7:30ish, more BCAAs at around 7:30-7:45 and then BCAAs again at 10am and break my fast at 12 noon. Eat until 8 pm and have BCAAs at around 10pm before going to bed....wake up and repeat!!

 

[Sik]

If the interest is to train fasted, then nothing shall be ingested unless is my big cup of black coffee.

But it depends if you want to train fasted or not. If the interest is to train after 1-2 meals i will use some type of amino's drink (bcaa's, peptopro, leucine, etc) and some carb mix inside.

my 2 cent

 

[JohnRock]

If the interest is to train fasted, then nothing shall be ingested unless is my big cup of black coffee.

But it depends if you want to train fasted or not. If the interest is to train after 1-2 meals i will use some type of amino's drink (bcaa's, peptopro, leucine, etc) and some carb mix inside.

my 2 cent

That's basically opposite of logical. You need the aminos most when you're fasted. If you've already had a meal or two, they're not going to make as profound of a difference.

 

[Sik]

Maybe you missunderstood me.

I believe that are two types of training:

1 - fully fasted
2 - not fully fasted

If you go fasted and ingest any aminos is what? semi-fasted?

I normally only workout fasted, when i'm out of country and have to workout at the morning. Then i went only with coffee and after training an epic meal.

If i'm at home, e eat my lunch, pre training meal, intra training with carbs and aminos (first carbs of the day) and big meal after.

EDIT: if you believe that a good selection of amino's to use intra training, one that are not competitive in absorption, are not a profound difference, so we have very different opinions. I'm not a fan of BCAA's as i believe is a waist of money, if i buy only BCAA's based products i will buy only leucine.

 

[Resolve]

when u guys are trying to get ur cals in.....on a lifting day lets say, do u jsut eat whatever u want, or do u still try to stick with low carb or "healthier" foods, or do u go hit up mcdonalds lol

I stick to calorie dense but clean foods. Lots of healthy fat and protein, carbs are limited to pre- and post-workout.

How often do you guys utilize leucine or BCAAs during your fasted portion?

On week days, I wake around 6:30-7:00 for work, eat first meal between 12:00 and 12:30 and then wrap up accordingly at 8:00 or 8:30 (working out at ~4:30 on non-off days), then go to bed usually around 11:00.

Do / would you hit some aminos upon rising, a few hours later and then just before bed? I haven't been hitting any during the fast, lately, but I was doing the above at first. The one thing is that I'm trying to avoid the morning dosing because I don't know if it would screw with my Synthroid or not (since it's supposed to be no food for at least an hour after dosing).

8g Leucine (1scoop Protocol, 1scoop bulk leucine) every 3hr on fasting days.

 

[houstontexas]

I lift from about 4:30-5:30am 3 days a week now (GVT). This means I should do the following routine on lifting days correct:

4:20am BCAA
5:40am BCAA
8:00am BCAA
10:00am BCAA
12pm-8pm eating window
*wash, rinse, repeat

Would I be good with BCAA's at 9am instead of both 8am and 10am?

What about non lifting days? Should I still supplement BCAA's in the morning or just run them with nothing until I reach my eating window?

 

[Frank Reynolds]

I have been doing this for about 3-4 months now, with good results. For the majority of that time, I had things very loose, just focusing on maintaining/SLOWLY losing BF, while hopefully adding muscle. I did just that. The scale didn't change, and in the end I ended up gaining 1-2lbs, but was noticeably leaner, as well as my waist was down.

The last 2 weeks I have adjusted things to focus more on losing BF, at a more accelerated rate. I made a few changes. One thing I did was cut carbs out completely, and implemented a full day Saturday refeed. Additionally on non workout days, I don't eat my first meal until 5-530pm. I just sip aminos durring the day. My one meal I do eat at 12:30 on WO days is fairly small, and usually just FF greek yogurt with 25g of protein, and walnuts mixed in.

My large meal of the day, I kept at 5-5:30 pm, and have kept my protein sources loose. Chicken thighs, fattier cuts of steak, pork, etc. I usually eat that with a big salad with oil based dressing, some nuts, etc.

Once I stall out and plateau, I will clean up my protein sources to reduce fat.

I have not been counting calories, at all(for once in my life), but just try to get in 1lb of meat at my large meal. I am trying to really not complicate it, and try to enjoy what I am eating for a change.

Saturdays I refeed, basically "Skipload" style. High GI carbs, low fat, and as much as I can pack in. I have implemented this method for a couple years, when keeping carbs lower.

 

[MrKleen73]

The fasting protocals seem to vary regarding when to have amino acids. One thing consistently shown is that it takes a few days for your body to begin the signal to start catabolism. The first few days of a fast are actually spent in an increased metabolic rate not a slower one. That does not happend for a few days after the fast begins. In the beginning of the fast the energy expenditure is naturally leaning towards being active to encourage the foraging and hunting. During this time the body feeds on fat. It naturally knows to increase lypolosis, and increase BMR to keep the body active. It takes some time but as the leptin levels begin to deplete the body begins to change its focus to an energy saving mode. This is when the body starts to preserve fat and goes after the muscle. However there is not logical reason to think that a workout done after an overnight fast would have any catabolic effect at all. None of these approaches get anywhere near the point where catabolism is going to be a factor. However the effort people are making with the aminos, and leucine is to stimulate protein synthesis during the training and to supply some substrate to be used during the time of gross underfeeding.

In my opinion on and ADF you would not have any reason to take Aminos on your training day seeing as to the fact you will be taking in a ton of protein and there will be no shortage of aminos in the blood stream. However adding them into the fasting period to increase some protein synthesis may be useless it is definitely not hurting anything short of our pockets. I will go amino less at some point to test the theory and if not changes in recovery that will be another supplement I drop off my arsenal. Man this is gonna make me rich soon if I keep finding it makes supplements I was using not needed any longer.

Many of you may want to look up DatBTrue and some of his stuff on ADF fasting as well as his "Carbless Post Work Out" He details out quite a bit of how ADF is being done and how they have semi perfected the post workout nutrition to go along with ADF. He also lists all of the various health benefits of ADF. Many you would be surprised of.

 

[MrKleen73]

I lift from about 4:30-5:30am 3 days a week now (GVT). This means I should do the following routine on lifting days correct:

4:20am BCAA
5:40am BCAA
8:00am BCAA
10:00am BCAA
12pm-8pm eating window
*wash, rinse, repeat

Would I be good with BCAA's at 9am instead of both 8am and 10am?

What about non lifting days? Should I still supplement BCAA's in the morning or just run them with nothing until I reach my eating window?

Those adjustments would work fine. Like I said honestly there should not be any chance of catabolism so you aren't really protecting yourself so much as doing extra credit work. I would put the aminos into an "Above and beyond category" while doing fasting. Not something that has to be done.

 

[houstontexas]

Thanks Kleen. I have a huge supply of them that I stocked up on so I will just use them until I run out and then try it without to see if I notice any difference.

 

[EasyEJL]

the piece I worry about a little as I shift from how I was eating to this is that with first meal at noon, i'll likely only eat 2 real meals with maybe a snack inbetween. So I worry a little that i'll get used to the meals being of that size and times when I don't eat IF style (ie go have breakfast somewhere) i'll way too easily go over daily total cals.

 

[DreamWeaver]

Those adjustments would work fine. Like I said honestly there should not be any chance of catabolism so you aren't really protecting yourself so much as doing extra credit work. I would put the aminos into an "Above and beyond category" while doing fasting. Not something that has to be done.

What about when you are in a more serious Calorie restriction. I agree I am not to concerned right now where my calorie restriction is not that serious. Then again there may be no need for seriious calorie restriction....hmmm. (Pinching myself to see if I am actiually awake, can't believe this line of thinking)..

 

[DreamWeaver]

Thanks Kleen. I have a huge supply of them that I stocked up on so I will just use them until I run out and then try it without to see if I notice any difference.

Yah I am stocking up too... I will probably use them or around wo's when cutting in any event.

 

[MrKleen73]

I simply adjust my eating window for the day or chalk it up to a non important for that day and not even consider it. Unless getting ready for a competition an extra 500 even 1000 cals one day out of many isn't going to hurt you one bit. If you get in a habit of doing that then yes it would be a problem. Now if you mean going back to regular eating as in normally. Yeah that would suck. However I can't imagine a reason for me personally that would make me choose to go back to the old way I ate.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

the piece I worry about a little as I shift from how I was eating to this is that with first meal at noon, i'll likely only eat 2 real meals with maybe a snack inbetween. So I worry a little that i'll get used to the meals being of that size and times when I don't eat IF style (ie go have breakfast somewhere) i'll way too easily go over daily total cals.

I have found, for me atleast(and I have one of the worst metabolisms ever), it didn't make a difference, when in maintenance/recomp mode.

I would stick to IF monday-saturday. Saturday I would fast all day until dinner, go out for dinner with friends/wife, and literally KILL it. I mean to the point that I would go to a nice restaurant, eat a meal, walk out and hit up a subway/chipotle next door, then get fro-yo..lol

Sunday mornings I would often go out for breakfast and again, eat so much it would make people sick just looking at me.lol Fast the rest of the day, have a normal-ish dinner.

Even during the week my big nightly meals were atleast 1-2x a week big ass chipotle burritos, and less then clean.

You will have to play with things for yourself, and see what you can get away with.

 

[MidwestBeast]

Thanks for the input on the aminos, guys.

Like I said, the trickiest part for me is giving my body ample time to have the synthroid and not have it be interfered with.

What I'll likely do is pop it as soon as I wake and then about 1.5 hours or so later, take some, eat 12-8, then again right before bed have aminos.

 

[DreamWeaver]

I have found, for me atleast(and I have one of the worst metabolisms ever), it didn't make a difference, when in maintenance/recomp mode.

I would stick to IF monday-saturday. Saturday I would fast all day until dinner, go out for dinner with friends/wife, and literally KILL it. I mean to the point that I would go to a nice restaurant, eat a meal, walk out and hit up a subway/chipotle next door, then get fro-yo..lol

Sunday mornings I would often go out for breakfast and again, eat so much it would make people sick just looking at me.lol Fast the rest of the day, have a normal-ish dinner.

Even during the week my big nightly meals were atleast 1-2x a week big ass chipotle burritos, and less then clean.

You will have to play with things for yourself, and see what you can get away with.

Man good idea that would so work.... another idea to use when on vacation...

 

[Red Dog]

Martin talks about taking cals real low in his recomp program.

I don't consider him the be-all/end-all authority on fasting though. I'm gaining weight and strength on my current regimen, but it's still a bit early before I would recommend anyone else try this.. I take leucine throughout my fast.

It's the same basic premise as LG - don't eat for a while, then eat a lot within a given time frame. I've just lengthened the fast to about 24hr and the eating window to about 12.

Oh I got ya, I've never see that article; can you throw me a link if you can recall it? You'll have to keep me/us updated on your progress too.

Also ,are you taking in a mixture of BCAAs or exclusively leucine while you fast?

when u guys are trying to get ur cals in.....on a lifting day lets say, do u jsut eat whatever u want, or do u still try to stick with low carb or "healthier" foods, or do u go hit up mcdonalds lol

Typically, LIFT DAY = more carbs, less fat; REST DAY = more fast, less carbs. However, I understand it's fine to include some carbs on rest days as well (usually in the form of fruit).

I rarely get ****ty food, I use ONE PostWO refeed (saturday night) as a "cheat" refeed where I'll eat more than I usually would and will include something bad like three-meat pizza.

How often do you guys utilize leucine or BCAAs during your fasted portion?

I may be wrong, but I always thought taking in BCAAs was only critical if you were forced to lift and then couldn't take in your PostWO meal right away. Like if you lift around 12PM and have to work or have no time at all to eat a big meal until 5PM, you could take BCAAs every couple hours to promote protein synthesis. Kind of like HoustonTexas outlined on the next page actually.

The only time I use BCAAs during the fasted portion is right before low-intensity cardio (e.g. brisk walking) and before and during weight training.

I lift from about 4:30-5:30am 3 days a week now (GVT). This means I should do the following routine on lifting days correct:

What about non lifting days? Should I still supplement BCAA's in the morning or just run them with nothing until I reach my eating window?

I think you'd be fine just fasting regularly unless you're going to perform some cardio -- then I would recommend some BCAAs beforehand and potentially afterwards.

Also, be careful with the GVT on this program as the high volume can eventually become too much if you're consistently training in a fasted state -- first-hand experience!

if you believe that a good selection of amino's to use intra training, one that are not competitive in absorption, are not a profound difference, so we have very different opinions. I'm not a fan of BCAA's as i believe is a waist of money, if i buy only BCAA's based products i will buy only leucine.

That's totally fine and they are damn expensive, although I feel like there have been studies that indicate amino acids prior to weight training is superior in promoting protein synthesis and glycogen uptake in muscle cells post-workout.

 

[Red Dog]

I can't imagine a reason for me personally that would make me choose to go back to the old way I ate.

It seems this only becomes more and more evident as time goes on.

 

[MrKleen73]

Today is a lower calories day for me and my fast breaking meal is 2 cans of tuna mixed with 1 cup lowfat cottage cheese, half oz of sunflower seeds, 8 large green olives and a good amount of pepper. Over all protein about 75-80 grams for the meal. I am having a large granny smith apple along with it to provide carbohydrates. I will have a snack later then a larger meal again for dinner getting my overal protein intake up around 200 grams for the day. I will have about 8 oz of lean ground turkey tonight, and I will more than likely have a cup of blueberries in some type of protein sorbet tonight topping carbs off at about 75-100 grams for the day, everything else will be fat and in moderate amounts. A good 6-8 grams of this will be in triple strength fish oils that I get 900 mg of omega per pill 1400mg pill. That basically give an idea of what a really clean day on the cut can be like depending on what you like to eat. I use a lot of convenience meals I can mix easly like the tuna and cottage cheese or I pre cook 8-16 oz of meat for that fast breaker depending on the day. It really just depends. Some days when i still feel full from the day before I will just do 100 grams of protein powder mixed in with some blueberries for a fast breaker it really just depends.

 

[Resolve]

Red Dog, I don't have a link to that article by Martin, but it IS somewhere in his blog. If you google "Lean gains Recomp Protocol" you should find it reasonably quick.

I use straight leucine because, IMO, the other BCAAs are superfluous - Leucine is the specific anabolic ligand, so I load up on that. Also, I would have to take much more BCAA to get an equivalent dose of Leucine.

I like protocol more than Xtend - none of the ingredients are "filler" - if only they made Protocol taste as good as Xtend...

 

[DreamWeaver]

I think you'd be fine just fasting regularly unless you're going to perform some cardio -- then I would recommend some BCAAs beforehand and potentially afterwards.

Yah this is how I will deal with cardio during fasting then... I guess it will not be necessary to take in any more.

 

[MrKleen73]

On top of this a study listend in Judo's log states that the body actually burns more fat if a small amount of protein/aminos are taken pre workout. So could also have a nice effect on that side of it. I think aminos around the workout are probably more important than any of the doses taken afterwards. EI the doses taken 2-4 hours post Workout before the fast breaking meal for those of us who only train using the Amino Acid protocal outlined on the Lean Gains website. Remember his set up is to optimize muscle growth so using the aminos is a requirement since his diet is to build an "above and beyond" physique. Of course like I said there is NO CHANCE of catabolism from training in a temporarily fasted state EI 16-36 hours. However trying to induce the protein synthesis in the absence of a meal aminos is the best bet.

I am going to interject that I think Glutamine should also be taken with the Luecine to truly optimize the stimulation for protein synthesis. L-Glutamine also increases protein synthesis and aids in the process as well. On top of this 2 grams of LGlutamine has been shown to cause a decent release in Growth hormone. Growth hormone increases lypolisis, as well as protein synthesis. I would try to make a mix that includes at least 2 grams of LGlutamine with 6-8 grams of luecine.

Make no mistake that L-GLutamine has excellent bioavailability. You will bee people state that id only has about 50% bioavailablity. However this is not true, only about 53% become available for the muscle to use however the intestines and liver take up the rest of the glutamine to supply to the immune system first then what is left is sent to the blood stream where the muscles can pick it up. However the ability for a little glutamine to increase protein synthesis makes your other proteins of more use to the muscle so don't get hung up on some of the claims that it it not bioavailable. It is but most of us meat heads only care about the part directly available to the muscle.

 

[MidwestBeast]

I may be wrong, but I always thought taking in BCAAs was only critical if you were forced to lift and then couldn't take in your PostWO meal right away. Like if you lift around 12PM and have to work or have no time at all to eat a big meal until 5PM, you could take BCAAs every couple hours to promote protein synthesis. Kind of like HoustonTexas outlined on the next page actually.

The only time I use BCAAs during the fasted portion is right before low-intensity cardio (e.g. brisk walking) and before and during weight training.

Thanks for your input.

That's what I was trying to figure out (I know people have different thoughts on this). I do my training around my meals and I utilize BCAAs intra-workout, too.

However, back in the days of eating ever 2.5-3 hours for fear that metabolism would drop, I'd lose muscle, etc., I would toss BCAAs in for replacement when I couldn't eat and upon rising if not eating immediately and right before bed. I just didn't know how important these were in a fasted state if not around workout times; just in general.

 

[Milas]

I think the role of BCAA is being oversimplified for anti-catabolic purposes. It does a lot more for protein synthesis (keep you building muscle, not just avoid catabolism), as well as other protein expression. Martin mentions:

"For fasted sessions, ingest 10 g branched chain amino acids (BCAA) shortly prior (5-15 mins) to your training session. This does not count towards the 8-hour feeding window that I advocate post-workout; that starts with your post-workout meal. By ingesting BCAA pre-workout, we can sidestep the increased protein breakdown of fasted training while still reaping the benefits of the increased anabolic response as seen in this study. Not only that, BCAAs actually increase phosphorylation of p70s6k when ingested in the fasted state prior to training. So by training fasted, with BCAA intake prior to sessions, we get a double whammy of increased p70s6k phosphorylation that should create a very favorable environment for muscle growth in the post-workout period. "

I'd just keep using the BCAA every 2 hours as recommended to keep protein synthesis going.

 

[Red Dog]

I'd just keep using the BCAA every 2 hours as recommended to keep protein synthesis going.

Not a bad idea at all, but it would hit you in the wallet pretty hard.

Assuming 8 awake hours of fasting and 10g BCAA per serving, that's at least 50g each day (10g at 0:2:4:6:8 hour mark after waking) without adding any extra surrounding cardio or intraWO.

1000g BCAA = MIN $40 (Bulk NP) = 20 days MAX (@50g per day)

So at that rate, 1 month = ~$60 spent on BCAA. It would be sweet, but pretty expensive.

 

[Red Dog]

Does anybody have any updates regarding MB's book? I really don't know anyone who does consultations with him or I would just ask them to mention it to him sometime.

He's been talking about it for years now!

 

[EasyEJL]

Not a bad idea at all, but it would hit you in the wallet pretty hard.

Assuming 8 awake hours of fasting and 10g BCAA per serving, that's at least 50g each day (10g at 0:2:4:6:8 hour mark after waking) without adding any extra surrounding cardio or intraWO.

1000g BCAA = MIN $40 (Bulk NP) = 20 days MAX (@50g per day)

So at that rate, 1 month = ~$60 spent on BCAA. It would be sweet, but pretty expensive.

I believe Layne Norton recommends 5g of leucine once an hour taken all at once for anabolism. Would be a good bit cheaper.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Not a bad idea at all, but it would hit you in the wallet pretty hard.

Assuming 8 awake hours of fasting and 10g BCAA per serving, that's at least 50g each day (10g at 0:2:4:6:8 hour mark after waking) without adding any extra surrounding cardio or intraWO.

1000g BCAA = MIN $40 (Bulk NP) = 20 days MAX (@50g per day)

So at that rate, 1 month = ~$60 spent on BCAA. It would be sweet, but pretty expensive.

MF has 4:1:1 bulk BCAA for $55 for 5lbs.

 

[JoHNnyNuTZ]

I lift from about 4:30-5:30am 3 days a week now (GVT). This means I should do the following routine on lifting days correct:

4:20am BCAA
5:40am BCAA
8:00am BCAA
10:00am BCAA
12pm-8pm eating window
*wash, rinse, repeat

Would I be good with BCAA's at 9am instead of both 8am and 10am?

What about non lifting days? Should I still supplement BCAA's in the morning or just run them with nothing until I reach my eating window?

Nice. AFter reading Kleens comment. This is pretty much my exact lifestyle

 

[Red Dog]

I believe Layne Norton recommends 5g of leucine once an hour taken all at once for anabolism. Would be a good bit cheaper.

Got ya; definitely cheaper.

MF has 4:1:1 bulk BCAA for $55 for 5lbs.

Oh very nice; the 4:1:1 ratio probably drops it down a bit (I think a lot of them are 2:1:1 right?) but that's a lot more manageable on a budget -- thanks!

 

[acwingfoot]

Kleen I know you already laid it out somewhat in terms of what a sample day of food - specific items looks like - but can some other people give some sample meals and lists of food .. i have been reading and reading and thinking about taking on this approach. I would probably be leaning towards the one PreWO meal protocol. Just looking for a pseudo-stencil on how to shape my diet in terms of Macros for each meal. Are there specific foods one must stay away from? I rarely cheat and everything is usually of one ingredient (besides my Whey). Any .02 is greatly appreciated!!

Currently I use a Paleo for Athletes type diet with oats/grains only at breakfast and PreWO ( if legs or otherwise extra taxing workout I use grains for Post WO as well). I am currently sitting at 7% BF based on the six point caliper test, but would like to see where this Lean Gains/IF approach can take me .. especially where it can keep me...

 

[MrKleen73]

On the lean gains site he has some dishes and recipes. basically that first meal maybe 40-50 grams protein, 35-40 grams carbs, lower fat keep it light and easy to digest is my recommendation. Then the meal after your workout you would want to consume probably 50-60% of your calories in that meal then the rest on your final meal.

My dinner tonight consisted of about 12 oz worth of lean ground turkey breast in spaghetti sauce no noodles and about 20 green grapes. Happy camper, and tomorrow I get to eat big.