The "Bad" Batches of M1T

[B5150]

http://www.avantlabs.com/images/miketest.gif

@30mg/ED that is a total of 3mg of "X". This is very insignificant regardless of the "illegal anabolic" it may be.

BTW...of the 36 GRAMS I have, NONE are for sale

 

[JerseyDevil]

Very interesting. I actually heard this when the Meso Labs first came out, but attributed it as rumor. The only M1t I've ever used is Legal Gear (still have 70 - 10mg tabs), and my results have always been outstanding. Running 20-30mg ed, I always blew up 12-15 lbs, mainly bloat, and put 30 lbs on my bench press.... not once but on three separate occasions. Once off, I lost a good bit of those gains. Sounds sort of like dbol huh?

I have since started using test prop (and just added winstrol), and my strength level is just now reaching where I was at while running M1t.

 

[zeromagnus]

I believe Brodus is aware of how insignificant the small dosage of the "illegal anabolic" may be, but I believe his intention was at first to inform the masses, and second, to do an experiment of his own, running a batch that supposedly has the "illegal anabolic" in it, versus a batch that doesn't, and seeing if there is any difference between batches/brands as far as results and side effects go.

 

[Brodus]

I hear you Zero...working on that...I'm on cycle right now, and my test is totally gone...need to know when to bite my tongue...

I agree, that's the beauty of the forum, differing views brought to light...I got hot when I spent all the time I did researching, and then people basically called me a liar...I have to put my debate days behind me...they always make me feel like going for the throat...you're right, as a researcher myself, it's not my job to convince...the data should do that, and this should be kept as objective as possible...I'll keep this in mind.

 

[Brodus]

Yeah...the whole reason I even started thinking about this was because if you look at the chemical profile of M1T and what it starts with in the production process (5alpha-reduced androstanes), you wonder why so many people have the typical sides of an armoatizable. 1T, being di-hydro-boldenone, doesn't have nearly the "bloat report" level, and the methyl version, on paper, shouldn't either. And yes, I understand "glycogen supercompensation" (and the reason SS bloodwork showed chronic low-glyco levels) and the positive effects of fascia stretching that waterlogged muscles exhibit, but I didn't feel this was the whole story, because other substances with similar RBA and LA figures don't exhibit these effects unless they aromatize (and yes, I know these aren't the only ways to objectively discern the side effect profile of a substance, and I know the apples/oranges argument, and I know that different people react somewhat differently, but you can establish trends via meta-analysis).

I've been thinking about this for a while, and found the assays and stuff by accident, and then started digging deeper.

You know, there is another possibility too, that we're overlooking, that in-vivo M1T converts to something we're not aware of...since there are no studies, we're just shooting in the dark. This may very well be the case.

The only thing that scares me about M1T is the carnage on the lipid profiles. And my science mind asks, "Why is this occuring," and "can it be prevented." Such an intriguing anabolic..and so CHEAP!!

 

[Onslaught]

I think you're overlooking the fact that adding a methyl group can change the properties of said AAS significantly.

Eq -> Dry
Methyl-Eq (Dbol) -> Bloating

 

[Onslaught]

Brodus, you write with obvious intelligence, but you behave like a child. You said you put your "debate days" behind you. Last time I saw a rational debate, one party did not resort to calling the other a "bitch".

Willieman, don't flatter yourself, I dumped you after I found out your brother was a better lay.

 

[lifted]

I think you're overlooking the fact that adding a methyl group can change the properties of said AAS significantly.

Eq -> Dry
Methyl-Eq (Dbol) -> Bloating

Okay, but what does that have to do with this?

M1T can have some impurities in it...if you don't think it could possibly happen than your really naive...and as said a million times by Onslaught though, the amount it so low that it's pretty much a moot issue...

 

[Onslaught]

My point was that he's arguing M1T should be a dry compound, just like 1T. Clearly, 1T and M1T differ greatly in their effects, just like EQ and Methyl-EQ (Dbol). I understand that there are contaminants, I never said there weren't. There just aren't enough to cause the amount of bloating seen with M1T. I'm saying it's M1T itself that causes the bloating.

 

[lifted]

My point was that he's arguing M1T should be a dry compound, just like 1T. Clearly, 1T and M1T differ greatly in their effects, just like EQ and Methyl-EQ (Dbol). I understand that there are contaminants, I never said there weren't. There just aren't enough to cause the amount of bloating seen with M1T. I'm saying it's M1T itself that causes the bloating.

Yeah, I see what you mean...I wouldn't really know about a possible difference as I've only ran the M-1T once....

Glycogen storage was what caused most of the bloat so to speak, and I sure as hell didn't look puffy at all....I was hard as a rock 24/7...

But I've also read user's reports that they look like a balloon...

 

[B5150]

My point was that he's arguing M1T should be a dry compound, just like 1T. Clearly, 1T and M1T differ greatly in their effects, just like EQ and Methyl-EQ (Dbol). I understand that there are contaminants, I never said there weren't. There just aren't enough to cause the amount of bloating seen with M1T. I'm saying it's M1T itself that causes the bloating.

bingo

 

[Brodus]

Onslaught Posted:

"From everything I've read, there is absolutely no reason M1T would've been contaminated with D-bol unless it was intentional."


Later he posted:

"I understand that there are contaminants, I never said there weren't."


Hmmm....

First he posted:
"So, let me see these lab assays. If you're right, I'll gladly acknowledge it. "

Then, after assays were up, he posted...oh wait...I guess that was a lie too.

So those are two 180-degree flip-flops...and then the person who posts the research is "making **** up."

Funny.

 

[Grant]

I think he realized that they were contaminants, after you explained the process so you cant bring that up, also, you acuse him of dodging your questions and shifting the focus, yet you havent said anything about his claim that the amount of aromatizing compounds that may or may not be present in m1t cannot be responsible for bloating. How can you expect him to answer all of your questions if you dont do the same for him...

 

[Brodus]

Hmm...I said nothing?

"I agree, logically it seems like a stretch, given the low dosage...but there were batches that tested as low as 70%, meaning some people who were taking the higher dosages were getting around 10mg. of D-Bol or Methyltest, depending. DBol comes in 5mg tabs--you don't think taking a couple a day would do anything to you at all? I agree, it may be too low a dose for the desired effect profile to emerge, but I argue that the side effect profile would emerge at lower doses...again, that's been the precise argument used by many on this board to argue against low dosing of PHs and PSs-->that you'll get all sides and no results...I'd post thread links, but I know you've read these, too.

If you think this would do nothing, fine, but then why did everyone jump so hard on LG when they added a singular gram of M4AD (which converts partially to MT) to their 4AD+ (providing less tham 8mg/serving), claiming it was tits in a bottle?

I never said this was an alternative to DBol--which is obvisouly cheaper, etc. I'm just curious, as I originally posted. "

That's just one post. I referenced it in four different posts.

To be honest, not only were my first 6 claims uncontested, accepted, and then masqueraded as "oh, I knew that," but there are three additional arguments I made that went uncontested:

1. Since D-Bol comes in 5mg tabs, are you saying that taking two a day would do nothing?
2. The regular argument given against low-dosing PHs/PSs is "all sides, no gains," why does it not apply here?
3. If Methyltest (a possible ) is bad enough for everyone to jump alll ovver Legal Gear for 4AD+ (which had about 8mg. per serving), why is this a different case-->since people could be easily getting this much (since the "inpurities" are MT or DBol, depending).

The only claim I haven't addressed direclty is the "methylation changes things" argument...which is beside the point, because the reference to the "dry gains" profile I spoke of merely was the impetus behind my current research, and is really neither here nor there. It doesn't effect whether or not low doses of Dbol or MT could cause more bloat than would be seen without their introduction, which is really at the heart of this.

A more powerful question, which I asked and no one answered, is "does M1T perhaps convert to something else we're not aware of in-vivo?"

 

[cookmic5]

Has anyone else read this entire thread only to get to this point and find yourself asking:

What in the HELL am I doing with my life that I had the time to read all of that?

I have to get a hobby.

cm5

 

[Brodus]

At least we''re discussing things intelligently--over at bb.com there are 14 page threads dedicated to "should I get wasted on my M1T cycle?"

Actually, from a consumer standpoint, it might be worthwhile to know about this--but yes, way too much time on our hands to go this far!!

 

[willieman]

Brodus, you write with obvious intelligence, but you behave like a child. You said you put your "debate days" behind you. Last time I saw a rational debate, one party did not resort to calling the other a "bitch".

Willieman, don't flatter yourself, I dumped you after I found out your brother was a better lay.

that was my sister...shes just a little manly, we coudn't pay guys to sleep with her...mom says hi too...

 

[Scottyo]

1. Since D-Bol comes in 5mg tabs, are you saying that taking two a day would do nothing?

Just because something comes in 5mg tabs doesn't mean you don't need a larger amount. Have you done any research whatsoever into the dosing schemes, and properties of dianabol, or are you that clueless?
2 5mg tabs of dbol would not do anything for anyone... Unless you were a female and just wanted to screw up your body

People take 15-30mg as a "bridge". This is in an attempt to stay at a low enough dose to have some minor anabolic properties while not screwing with the HPTA. While I don't agree with it, they are still taking more then 2 5mg tabs.

 

[lifted]

Just because something comes in 5mg tabs doesn't mean you don't need a larger amount. Have you done any research whatsoever into the dosing schemes, and properties of dianabol, or are you that clueless?
2 5mg tabs of dbol would not do anything for anyone... Unless you were a female and just wanted to screw up your body

People take 15-30mg as a "bridge". This is in an attempt to stay at a low enough dose to have some minor anabolic properties while not screwing with the HPTA. While I don't agree with it, they are still taking more then 2 5mg tabs.

I remember reading somewhere that only 10mg of dbol will shut your down. I'll try to find where..

 

[lifted]

Here's a thread disputing it, but wasn't what I was looking for...
http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13895&highlight=bridging

10mg may or may not give you results, but it will have a negative effect on the HPTA....but, who the fvck actually takes 10mg of dbol/day?...LOL..

 

[Scottyo]

that was the point. I didnt want to get into the debate involving a dbol bridge, its been done to death. But to sum up...regardless of whether the M1T was contaminated, if it was dbol it would have no positive affects whatsoever at that dosage.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Well I'm glad I missed the majority of this one.

1. The first batches were contaminated but it wasn't D-bol.

2. Most of those batches we're sent back and never sold.

3. Legal Gear had nothing to do with the manufactuere of the first batches that we're released to the public, he just sold it.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Well, Onslaught, if it's total bullshit, then you're calling Mike @ 1fast and Patrick Arnold liars, because that's where I got the story. How much research on this have you done prior to posting? Do you know how M1T is synthetically metabolized, and that a downstream metabolite of the reaction is in fact Dbol? .

They didn't have access to the very first batches.

 

[jjjd]

bobo, if you can reveal.

what WERE the first batches contaminated with?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

No, I can't reveal but it doens't matter anyway because it was never pressed into tabs. So anyone saying they tested the first batch and it was tabs, is mistaken. The reason the first batches (of tabs) cost so much is because the first shipments were tested and failed. Remember, when M1T came out, most people in the industry were not for it at all and raising bloddy hell it was brought to market. Once they found out the money that could be made, they changed their minds real fast and now sell it for very cheap, except Pat.

Its a dead issue anyway because the amount present would have almost zero effect.

 

[Technics]

You don't know me or my credentials...and I don't know yours, but I can tell you don't have degrees anywhere near mine, just based on the way you argue and your word choice and your logic...you didn't think I had evidence, I posted it...then you pull Straw Man argument 101 and attack a theory that I never even claimed was true, in order to pretend that everything I said was false, and people on the board should forget the fact that I posted a well-reasoned, evidentially sound rebuttal to your original post (which claimed some sort of B.S. on my part, that I had confused M1,4ADD with M1T) that you never refuted.

I tore out every argument you had:
1. That this was a rumor
2. That I was confused, and it was M1,4 ADD I was talking about
3. That there were no available lab assays (which, by the way, you said you'd acknowledge if I produced, but never did)
4. That I didn't know anything about synthesis
5. That just because you "follow the boards," I couldn't possibly have seen this
6. That because I am "third-party" I can't be trusted (genetic fallacy)

All that you're left with is the hypothesis I never claimed to know, and that I plan to test, whether or not different batches have different effects. You seem to think they don't, based on the amount of aromatizables in a bad batch (NOTE: To even argue this, you've already conceded I am right on the above 6 points, because you're second post made 6 assertions of B.S. on my part). I'm saying I don't know, as I said in my second or third post if you read them, and I'm approaching it like a scientist. My THEORY is that these aromatizables might be causing the discrepancy in-vivo...I explicitly stated "WHO KNOWS." Now, if I had finished a test, and had data, and you had done the same thing, then we could argue...but right now it's just a theory...one I'm willing to test, and one that upsets you for some reason.

And the funny part is how little you know me, or what I do for a living, or where I live, or what my contacts are, or what professional athletes I have worked under and with, or where I went to school, or what I was paid to go to school for, and yet you think I'm trying to hide behind a computer...it's funnier than you can imagine...I mean, just the phrase "<insert activtiy> much?" dates you and places you within a specific realm that I don't care to frequent. You don't warrant my time, so thanks for ruining the thread. That's why I called you a bitch.

BTW--Anyone keeping score, thats 6-0. I invite any board members to read all the threads, you'll come up with the same score. I'm out.

wow, you have some degrees, your point? is this a Genetic Fallacy or a Strawman argument? That was irrelevant to the topic. Both of you have your reasons, but id like to know how such a small amount of dbol would cause bloat!

Let me know.

 

[size]

Its a dead issue anyway because the amount present would have almost zero effect.

Indeed. I can't believe this is has been so extensively argued simply for that reason. If a "bad" batch did exist, then the only concern should be for drug tested athletes in fear of a positive test for a banned substance.

 

[jjjd]

well, not necessarily. if, for example (pure hypothetical), if the substance present was methylTRIenolone, it would definitely have an effect.

 

[Brodus]

Patrick Arnold said the "unknowns" were either Methyltest or Dbol.

I'm actually hypothesizing that the bloating some users report may be due to this, not any increase in gains. Please note this is only a theory. I'm basing this partially on the regular advice against low-dosing PHs/PSs--not gains, all sides.

Remember the storm of negative posts about LG 4AD+, which had 8mg or less of M4AD per serving--people said it was tits in a bottle...this is about the same amount were playing with here...how is this situation different? Transdermal M4AD is actually going to be less effective than oral Methyltest.

 

[willieman]

Also take into account what they were stacking with it....4 AD was a favorite, it bloated me up..

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Patrick Arnold said the "unknowns" were either Methyltest or Dbol.

I'm actually hypothesizing that the bloating some users report may be due to this, not any increase in gains. Please note this is only a theory. I'm basing this partially on the regular advice against low-dosing PHs/PSs--not gains, all sides.

Remember the storm of negative posts about LG 4AD+, which had 8mg or less of M4AD per serving--people said it was tits in a bottle...this is about the same amount were playing with here...how is this situation different? Transdermal M4AD is actually going to be less effective than oral Methyltest.

Please get some facts straight here.

1. Androgens, in particular strong androgens, can increase water retention by directly increase aldosterone production without aromatizing. Increased aldosterone equals increases water retention.

2. Pat Arnold doens't know what was in the first batch because he never saw it because it was never pressed into tabs.

3. M4AD will be tits in a bottle if you actually take enough for it to have an effect. The whole problem was that you had to take a lot of methyltest too see results but by then the side effects outweighed the benefits. So when LG brought it out and the dosage was so small it wouldn't do a thing (and it didn't) the results were expected.

So:

1. You theory about water retention holds no water because everything they are saying is speculation and based on zero facts. They NEVER tested the first contaminated batches. The tested LG's batches after he stopped using Meso Labs (which is NOT LG)

2. Trying to associate M4AD to this arguement ins't accurate either because it would take a large amount for this to happen.

 

[Rictor33]

i got the best gains and the least sides from 20mg of meso labs/day. Of course that could be because they were my 1st m1t cycles.