supplement companies making more and more **** based on pseudoscience

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Honestly there is sh!t tons of studies on meth showing low doses is VERY safe. It may actually be neuroproctive

If you have any off hand feel free to share so that I can be lazy :09:

 

[rtmilburn]

Problem is street meth is not methamphetamine. It is an analogue that is WAY stronger and dangerous. However, it is referred to as meth as if it is the same thing, but it's not

 

[rtmilburn]

If you have any off hand feel free to share so that I can be lazy :09:

I've already posted 2 but here is a third.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25724762/

 

[bobthejack]

I have absolutely no idea what I just read

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

One I saw...rat study...I want human studies lol. This is the gold standard and helps prevent a lot of false conclusions. Rat studies can be used to give us an idea on the viability to a human study, but can and should not be used to draw definitive conclusions especially in the presence of human studies.

The one you posted was in the context of stroke and Traumatic brain injury.... and I quote

" it appears that methamphetamine under certain circumstances and correct dosing can produce a neuroprotective effect. This review addresses the neuroprotective potential of methamphetamine and focuses on the potential beneficial application for TBI."

This physiology of why its beneficial in this circumstance can be the very reason in a healthy individual its dangerous.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Im currently making my way through this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4164186/

This is an update in 2014 on methamphetamine.

 

[rtmilburn]

One I saw...rat study...I want human studies lol. This is the gold standard and helps prevent a lot of false conclusions. Rat studies can be used to give us an idea on the viability to a human study, but can and should not be used to draw definitive conclusions especially in the presence of human studies.

The one you posted was in the context of stroke and Traumatic brain injury.... and I quote

" it appears that methamphetamine under certain circumstances and correct dosing can produce a neuroprotective effect. This review addresses the neuroprotective potential of methamphetamine and focuses on the potential beneficial application for TBI."

This physiology of why its beneficial in this circumstance can be the very reason in a healthy individual its dangerous.

Definitely. I'll dig later to find more relevant studies. I'm running on 3 hours of sleep and have report to turn in soon, so I don't have the time.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Definitely. I'll dig later to find more relevant studies. I'm running on 3 hours of sleep and have report to turn in soon, so I don't have the time.

Get some sleep!! I'll keep digging in my off time.

 

[HIT4ME]

I don't have a horse in this race other then some a shared distaste for pseudoscience or un-supported claims. Given this is a thread about delineating fact from fiction I want to address the above comment.

Retained water has more to due with electrolyte, hydration status, and carbs then immediate cortisol spike. Cortisol does not affect IMMEDIATE sub q water. It takes time. Furthermore water retention in the body has more to do with mineralocorticoids then glucorticoids. Cortisol is a glucocorticoid. If you were saying aldosterone that would be another story.

Furthermore caffeine is a supported ergogenic aid, this is not for debate the research supports an increase in performance with supplementation despite its effects on cortisol. Furthermore caffeine is a diuretic, and so are many stimulants....plugging holes in the idea of immediate water retention due to stims like high caffeine pre workouts.

Cortisols main effects in the body include but are not limited to:
- increased amino acid uptake in liver
- increased gluconeogenesis in liver
- protein synthesis in muscle as well as decrease amino acid uptake
- general catabolic effects exerted through primarily the aforementioned cecrease in MPS
- mobilization of serum lipids
- etc

In the setting of a workout, cortisol would increase muscle damage...this is beneficial in the setting of an ACUTE workout/stress situation. Problems occur when cortisol is chronically elevated.

Though you may make a point and state that decrease in MPS is bad, i would disagree. I want my muscle to be torn down during exercise. I want a decrease in MPS and amino acid uptake during my lift. AFTER my lift I want to reverse this process. I want a healthy amount of damage to my muscle, this is how I/we progress.

You have made some good points in this thread but you I would argue have flaws in your reasoning on certain issues.

Definitely. I'll dig later to find more relevant studies. I'm running on 3 hours of sleep and have report to turn in soon, so I don't have the time.

Ummmm...maybe you need some meth so that you can keep studying?

 

[shockrock3]

Awww yeah N,alpha-diethylphenylethylamine is making a comeback

 

[ManuR]

google fluffy cat and bench press

what's so hard to understand about it?

i like fluffy cats, even more so when they can BP
nah this is what i am refering to for example
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2257922/
there are much more studies.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Superhuman Radio has had two interviews in the recent past, on micro dosed LSD. They were very interesting.

 

[Jiigzz]

i like fluffy cats, even more so when they can BP
nah this is what i am refering to for example
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2257922/
there are much more studies.

Its really not a bad thing like is being made out to be

 

[Woody]

Call me crazy but... I still think I will take my chances on a supplement company's stimulated preworkout over what my local crack dealer has to offer.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Call me crazy but... I still think I will take my chances on a supplement company's stimulated preworkout over what my local crack dealer has to offer.

Tested and reliable**** company

Not all companies are created equal

 

[Jiigzz]

Call me crazy but... I still think I will take my chances on a supplement company's stimulated preworkout over what my local crack dealer has to offer.

But OL is the devil, and so you sir are a minion of evil.

#banStimulants #caffeineONLY #myokem4life

 

[cheftepesh1]

Tested and reliable**** company

Not all companies are created equal

This is the truth.

 

[redman24]

However to the original point I wanted to make....

Comparing adderall, dexedrine, or desoxyn to OTC, nonregulated, with sometimes no in-vivo human clincal trials is like comparing KSM-66 or LJ100(even though both have human clincal data) to test cypionate. They aren't even in the same league.

It's not fair or prudent to compare a pharma grade stimulant with known side effecst profile which has been studied extensively to some of the newer stems that for the most part lack the data or standardization in production.

Here is another one...its like trying to compare ground chicken to dry aged ribeye steak.

Now when your talking caffeine and alpha-gpc and how you prefer them to these newer agents, great. But seriously....its a no brainer why you prefer pharma speed vs Eria or DHMA. But lets be honest....that isnt very accessable legally and the others are.

i was saying that i find the stims used in preworkouts these days feel very dirty compared to LOW dose medical methamphetamine or dexedrine. im talking max. 10mg d-METHamphetamine, street users will use 100mg at once, sometimes more, some a gram or more per day.
its just that some years back the stims in pres were quitee pleasant but for me they feel dirtier and worse over time and feel like bad street drugs actually compared to the medical version of some street drugs in doses prescribed for clinical conditions.

using a full serving of one the current hardcore pres makes me feel horrible, just paranoid, heart racing, no endurance.
i cant wait till in some weeks time i will be using 400mg purenergy+200mg caffeine anhydrous (372mg caffeine+228mg pteropure), 1.5g arginocarn, 300mg alpha-gpc as the basis of my pre. also 1mg methylfolate and 1mg methylcobalamine. this will just feel comfortable while not killing endurance or causing paranoia, in fact it should increase endurance and cognition quite a bit and improve mood (methylfolate is too low in 70% of people with depression, making them unable to resond to reuptake inhibitors aka ssri ssnri dnri)

that itself would already beat most combinations, now adding things like creatinol-o-phosphate,l-carnitine fumarate, amentoflavone (for me it works great), creatine-pyruvate, orotic acid, ubiquinol, shilajit....

well you could add a million things or just a few. i think compounds that really increase strenght and compounds for mitochondrial energy are best. i prefer breaking prs every workout to getting a huge pump.

so all i can think of is c-o-p as for me it increases strength, not so much endurance, amento, maybe calcium-orotate to get calcium and orotic acid, i havent found the ratios yet (i mean how many percent is calcium and how many orotic acid by weight). ubiquinol+shilajit and creatine-pyruvate (only form of creatine i respond to.

i have a tendency to write too much, but for me its not hard to get all the ingredients as i get most from 2 formulas. in the end i have
372mg caffeine
228mg pteropure (from 400mg purenergy)
300mg alpha-gpc
1.5g arginocarn
1mg m-folate
1mg m-cobalamine

c-o-p
amento
calcium
orotic acid
creatine
pyruvic acid (neither creatine works for me, nor does pyruvate do much as far as i know but the combination as creatine-pyruvate works great)
ubiquinol
shilajit

i doubt any stimmed pre on the market will yield results comparable after 1 month use. especially since instead of taxing the cns this combination is incredibly healthy. i realize it would be near impossible to buy every compound alone but the basis is simple and cheap for me and a lot of things are add- ons which i may or may not take.

as strength is most important to me c-o-p and amento would be the two compunds i would not go without if i could only chose two. i think the basis with the huge amount of pteeropure from purenergy, the arginocarn and the active b vitamins will give plenty of endurance, especially mentally and energy that lasts for a long workout and is strong but not uncomfortable.
one may disagree but i dont think any pre on the market right now would be able to surpass this if you look at the results after 2-4 weeks. not one single workout, as stims will give some extra strenght but only for one workout, then you need to take them again to keep that strength.
this combination here will get better ever time you use it. that is what i am convinced of and if someone thinks he knows of a better combination which does not include buying 3 expensive formulas or 10 singlee ingrdients added to a stimmed pre combined with a pump pre but something that is in the range of affordability please let me know and tell me why you think so.

genuinely interested.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

COP and Amentoflavone have either very little data (COP, and it was injected into heart tissue IIRC, then there's the 1 or 2 Italian papers that no one can read, from almost 40 years ago), or data that suggests it does nothing (Amentoflavone using BCS and CACO-2 data). So as to avoid lengthy back and forth posts - are there any links to unbias RCTs showing benefit of either, when swallowed by athletes vs a placebo control?

 

[redman24]

as for microtraumata the optimal way of training for hypertrophy is proven and all systems are nonsense, yet people still believe in them.
the muscle conditions to the maximum weight used. if you do, at the most, 3 workouts in which you do just one single max rep of bench you have basically ****ed yourself in terms of growth because the only thing that will now cause traumata is heavier benching.
its because the muscle responds to mechanical tension by building a protective layer which can only be broken by load. no different angle, intensity techniques, volume, mtut, whatever does anything but increase glycogen in aas users.
the only effective part of ones training to build strucutral protein is the heaviest exercise. once you have benched 300 pounds just 2-3 times, you can not go back to benching 280, even if you do 10 sets and another 4 exercises with every intensity technique in the world. you are doing hardcore cardio. nothing traumatizes muscle tissue other than increased mechanical load. 100lbs dumbells on incline do nothing if you have benched 300 pounds before. this is your level of conditioning. hence why doing several exercises makes no sense, changing the weight and reps makes no sense, and most of all training a mucle less than every 48 hours makes no sense either. MPS is elevated for 36 hours or so, after that you waste growth potential. doms is irrelevant. recovery relates to the cns. muscles need about 9 hours to recover metabolically to perform at their best again. the necessary condition is to never ever to to muscle failure. once you increase work capacity muscles start to recover and grow while you train. some people have taken this principle so far that they did a cluster (a partial set with a weight above the level of conditioning) in their homegym every 10 min.
they trained every day all day. gains were like what you normally gain in a year but in 2 weeks.

it all sounds really strange but its a system and its the perfect system, called cluster-hst. the only flaw is people ****ing it up.
-full body workouts 3-12 times a week. only one compound movement per muscle (rows, and pullups are a different thing, but bench an incline bench target the same muscle)
-take a weight that is as heavy as the heaviest you are currently lifting. say you bench 280 for 10 reps. do as many sets of 5 reps as possible with 1-2 min. breaks. you manage 10 sets but probably not. once you have reached 10 sets up the weight by at least 10 pounds and do as many sets of 5 as possible. some may manage 5 and some may manage 8. try to keep the total reps above thirty but dont go over fifity (doing 100 reps is one factor why people failed with this system)
-you dont have to do sets of 5. you can do some of 7, lots of singles, a few sets of 3, it is irrelevant. the number is just a guideline to make it easy.
the reason why it doesnt matter is that when breaking your barrier of conditioning ever rep you do causes microtraumata. no need to push yourself to exhaustion when rep 1 does the same as rep 10. there is no difference mechanicall (metabolic pathway is coming).

you will be training more frequently, with much higher volume regarding effective repetitions (its easy to do 50 reps with your 5 rm once you have done it for a bit, doing 6 workouts weekly thats 300 reps. no oter system allows you to do 300 effective traumatizing reps per week). you will always have elevated MPS. your bmr will go crazy. you will gain strength like never before.

all you need is one good full body workout. you can do 2 alternating ones if the exercises are very different.

example 1: deadlift, dips (deep stretch, chest exercise), chin- or pullups
example 2: squats, bench, some kind of rows

if you chose alternating plans i suggest 6 workouts a week. if you combine them then eod should do.

weaknesses: arms should grow like mad on this. should they not then choose 1 exercise for biceps and one for triceps. the best are incline dumbell curls and incline triceps behin the head (no idea what its callled. the relevant thing is stretch. get as much stretch as possible util you can feel your muscles nearly ripping apart.

all other muscle groups should not need isolation exercises.

metabolic pathway. isos for muscles if you want. 1 set per muscle the opposite of the extreme stretch. limited range like concentration curl, 10 second positive, drop the weight (0 sec. negative), 10 sec positive. you may be able to do 3 reps with 20 pounds. no pro bb workout plan will cause the pain of cutting the blood flow. it is basically like tying up your muscle so no blood circulation takes place. after it will be flooded with blood and the pump surpasses anything experienced and is all that may be needed for the metabolic pathway as the sheer volume one does is impossible not to trigger metabolic responses...lol

reasons people fail: daily full body with 100 reps per day
doing 100 singles with their 2 rep max.
doing 100 reps with 150% of their 1rm doing negatives with a partner.
(muscle faliure. this is striclty prohibited and ruins everything but some may not understand this. you can train 500 reps a day witout failure and your cns will be fine. one attempt at a powerlifting pr failed and your ****ed. cns recovery is the limiting factor, muscles learn to reover while being trained, as shown by people who do a set ever 10 min., except for while sleeping. the results are insane and nobody ever felt burnt out)

to sum it up in one sentence: if your muscle is resistent to 300 pounds, how can 200 pounds have an effect even when you do 20 sets of chest with 5 intensity techniques? (the answer is obvious but i will repeat once more. mechanical tension is all that matters and once conditioned only more weight can break this conditioning, no system, nothing, just more weight. cluster hst allows this combined with volume, frequency and no cns burnout.

 

[redman24]

COP and Amentoflavone have either very little data (COP, and it was injected into heart tissue IIRC, then there's the 1 or 2 Italian papers that no one can read, from almost 40 years ago), or data that suggests it does nothing (Amentoflavone using BCS and CACO-2 data). So as to avoid lengthy back and forth posts - are there any links to unbias RCTs showing benefit of either, when swallowed by athletes vs a placebo control?

you know, my own supplementation i go by feel. i expect things to do nothing. creatine for me does not increase strength by a single rep ever in its normal form. c-o-p, the first time ingested i broke a record on an exercise i had been stuck for months (normally i break every pr every workout, but pullups around 120lbs or so became a very slow process). instead of 4 reps or failing pathetically on the 5th i did 5 nice reps. i just knew that it wasnt coincidence. also i got strenght everywhere which was beyond normal progression. but amento for me is insane. i dosed it up to 240mg though. within 3 workouts i went from 265lbs dual plate loaded shoulder press to 400 pounds. (thats in around a week at my training frequency) within a month or so i did 490 (those machines are about 60% of whats realistic weight for whatever reason)
also there are several dual plate loaded machines for back, like rowing and lat pulldown. i can just say my strength went up a lot. i cant give you numbers but on one machine i needed to tie about 450 pounds on it or so as the fully loaded machine i would do cardio with.
at the time i was actually on very low dose aas, and a low bodyweight for me so the sudden increase came as a real surprise.

i can't say they are the best compounds for everyone but for me nothing beats strength in comparison. forgetting amento preworkout would make me lose reps going from 8 to 5, while normally i would have managed 9 or 10.

i am quite well known on german forums so once i offered 5 people to try my own mix of preworkout ingredients. i spent 10 euros per serving plus shipping, so maybe 70 euros, justt so i could show them whats possible. the responses were absolutely insane. i gave some to a guy at my gym and he went all nuts over it and wanted to know everything, said he never had such strength, insane pump, euphoria, he cant ever train without it ...lol

so maybe not everyone responded to amento, i dont now. but ubiquinol+shilajit will beat any endurance supp on the market. people just dont try as they think its for old people and anti aging or something.

most other ingredients i mentioned are the best of the best there is, purenergy at 400mg, arginocarn, 1mg (1000mcg) methylfolate,
adding alpha-gpc and various other things (people are free to use pump supps but they really dont increase performance like mitochondrial energy increasing products).
creatine-pyruvate
calcium-orotate
(would add l-carnitine-fumarate for sure if there wasnt arginocarn but maybe stacking would work well. fumaric acid makes a huge difference to tartaric acd. for me plcar is okay, lc-fumarate is great. lclt is nothing and alcar or arginocarn are mostly good for a long term effect on the brain but some will get great focus and im sure there is also some endurance benefit. coupled with pterostilbene at 228mg and pyruvic acid and orotic acid there will be such an insane increase in mitochondrial energy, a first working set will feel like a warm up. i remember how crazy my training and shape was at tha time...)

i cant wait to get most of these things together as they make a huge difference for me, mor than just adding more gear as its a completely different approach to performance.

i was only posting what has worked best for me. i definitely dont want a company releasing a pre with all this.

to the companies: its all crap, dont use any of tha ****. nobody will buy it. leave it for idiots like me please

 

[Woody]

But OL is the devil, and so you sir are a minion of evil.

#banStimulants #caffeineONLY #myokem4life

Okay you caught me! I was only suggesting to stay away from cocaine and meth because drugs makes your soul taste foul and druggies really stink up Hell when they burn.

I would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for that meddling Jiigzz and his pesky dog!

 

[Jiigzz]

Okay you caught me! I was only suggesting to stay away from cocaine and meth because drugs makes your soul taste foul and druggies really stink up Hell when they burn.

I would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for that meddling Jiigzz and his pesky dog!

Reference. I see it.

 

[Jiigzz]

as for microtraumata the optimal way of training for hypertrophy is proven and all systems are nonsense, yet people still believe in them.
the muscle conditions to the maximum weight used. if you do, at the most, 3 workouts in which you do just one single max rep of bench you have basically ****ed yourself in terms of growth because the only thing that will now cause traumata is heavier benching.
its because the muscle responds to mechanical tension by building a protective layer which can only be broken by load. no different angle, intensity techniques, volume, mtut, whatever does anything but increase glycogen in aas users.
the only effective part of ones training to build strucutral protein is the heaviest exercise. once you have benched 300 pounds just 2-3 times, you can not go back to benching 280, even if you do 10 sets and another 4 exercises with every intensity technique in the world. you are doing hardcore cardio. nothing traumatizes muscle tissue other than increased mechanical load. 100lbs dumbells on incline do nothing if you have benched 300 pounds before. this is your level of conditioning. hence why doing several exercises makes no sense, changing the weight and reps makes no sense, and most of all training a mucle less than every 48 hours makes no sense either. MPS is elevated for 36 hours or so, after that you waste growth potential. doms is irrelevant. recovery relates to the cns. muscles need about 9 hours to recover metabolically to perform at their best again. the necessary condition is to never ever to to muscle failure. once you increase work capacity muscles start to recover and grow while you train. some people have taken this principle so far that they did a cluster (a partial set with a weight above the level of conditioning) in their homegym every 10 min.
they trained every day all day. gains were like what you normally gain in a year but in 2 weeks.

it all sounds really strange but its a system and its the perfect system, called cluster-hst. the only flaw is people ****ing it up.
-full body workouts 3-12 times a week. only one compound movement per muscle (rows, and pullups are a different thing, but bench an incline bench target the same muscle)
-take a weight that is as heavy as the heaviest you are currently lifting. say you bench 280 for 10 reps. do as many sets of 5 reps as possible with 1-2 min. breaks. you manage 10 sets but probably not. once you have reached 10 sets up the weight by at least 10 pounds and do as many sets of 5 as possible. some may manage 5 and some may manage 8. try to keep the total reps above thirty but dont go over fifity (doing 100 reps is one factor why people failed with this system)
-you dont have to do sets of 5. you can do some of 7, lots of singles, a few sets of 3, it is irrelevant. the number is just a guideline to make it easy.
the reason why it doesnt matter is that when breaking your barrier of conditioning ever rep you do causes microtraumata. no need to push yourself to exhaustion when rep 1 does the same as rep 10. there is no difference mechanicall (metabolic pathway is coming).

you will be training more frequently, with much higher volume regarding effective repetitions (its easy to do 50 reps with your 5 rm once you have done it for a bit, doing 6 workouts weekly thats 300 reps. no oter system allows you to do 300 effective traumatizing reps per week). you will always have elevated MPS. your bmr will go crazy. you will gain strength like never before.

all you need is one good full body workout. you can do 2 alternating ones if the exercises are very different.

example 1: deadlift, dips (deep stretch, chest exercise), chin- or pullups
example 2: squats, bench, some kind of rows

if you chose alternating plans i suggest 6 workouts a week. if you combine them then eod should do.

weaknesses: arms should grow like mad on this. should they not then choose 1 exercise for biceps and one for triceps. the best are incline dumbell curls and incline triceps behin the head (no idea what its callled. the relevant thing is stretch. get as much stretch as possible util you can feel your muscles nearly ripping apart.

all other muscle groups should not need isolation exercises.

metabolic pathway. isos for muscles if you want. 1 set per muscle the opposite of the extreme stretch. limited range like concentration curl, 10 second positive, drop the weight (0 sec. negative), 10 sec positive. you may be able to do 3 reps with 20 pounds. no pro bb workout plan will cause the pain of cutting the blood flow. it is basically like tying up your muscle so no blood circulation takes place. after it will be flooded with blood and the pump surpasses anything experienced and is all that may be needed for the metabolic pathway as the sheer volume one does is impossible not to trigger metabolic responses...lol

reasons people fail: daily full body with 100 reps per day
doing 100 singles with their 2 rep max.
doing 100 reps with 150% of their 1rm doing negatives with a partner.
(muscle faliure. this is striclty prohibited and ruins everything but some may not understand this. you can train 500 reps a day witout failure and your cns will be fine. one attempt at a powerlifting pr failed and your ****ed. cns recovery is the limiting factor, muscles learn to reover while being trained, as shown by people who do a set ever 10 min., except for while sleeping. the results are insane and nobody ever felt burnt out)

to sum it up in one sentence: if your muscle is resistent to 300 pounds, how can 200 pounds have an effect even when you do 20 sets of chest with 5 intensity techniques? (the answer is obvious but i will repeat once more. mechanical tension is all that matters and once conditioned only more weight can break this conditioning, no system, nothing, just more weight. cluster hst allows this combined with volume, frequency and no cns burnout.

You literally have NO idea what you're talking about. AT ALL. "Once you bench 300 for 2 reps you can never bench 280 even for 10 sets".. you're not really this dense are you?

It's funny that you make a thread trying to expose pseudoscience whilst propagating it yourself.

Just stop dude, and never program for anyone (even yourself) from this day on.

Moreover, this post is surely in the wrong thread.

 

[Jiigzz]

you know, my own supplementation i go by feel. i expect things to do nothing. creatine for me does not increase strength by a single rep ever in its normal form. c-o-p, the first time ingested i broke a record on an exercise i had been stuck for months (normally i break every pr every workout, but pullups around 120lbs or so became a very slow process). instead of 4 reps or failing pathetically on the 5th i did 5 nice reps. i just knew that it wasnt coincidence. also i got strenght everywhere which was beyond normal progression. but amento for me is insane. i dosed it up to 240mg though. within 3 workouts i went from 265lbs dual plate loaded shoulder press to 400 pounds. (thats in around a week at my training frequency) within a month or so i did 490 (those machines are about 60% of whats realistic weight for whatever reason)
also there are several dual plate loaded machines for back, like rowing and lat pulldown. i can just say my strength went up a lot. i cant give you numbers but on one machine i needed to tie about 450 pounds on it or so as the fully loaded machine i would do cardio with.
at the time i was actually on very low dose aas, and a low bodyweight for me so the sudden increase came as a real surprise.

i can't say they are the best compounds for everyone but for me nothing beats strength in comparison. forgetting amento preworkout would make me lose reps going from 8 to 5, while normally i would have managed 9 or 10.

i am quite well known on german forums so once i offered 5 people to try my own mix of preworkout ingredients. i spent 10 euros per serving plus shipping, so maybe 70 euros, justt so i could show them whats possible. the responses were absolutely insane. i gave some to a guy at my gym and he went all nuts over it and wanted to know everything, said he never had such strength, insane pump, euphoria, he cant ever train without it ...lol

so maybe not everyone responded to amento, i dont now. but ubiquinol+shilajit will beat any endurance supp on the market. people just dont try as they think its for old people and anti aging or something.

most other ingredients i mentioned are the best of the best there is, purenergy at 400mg, arginocarn, 1mg (1000mcg) methylfolate,
adding alpha-gpc and various other things (people are free to use pump supps but they really dont increase performance like mitochondrial energy increasing products).
creatine-pyruvate
calcium-orotate
(would add l-carnitine-fumarate for sure if there wasnt arginocarn but maybe stacking would work well. fumaric acid makes a huge difference to tartaric acd. for me plcar is okay, lc-fumarate is great. lclt is nothing and alcar or arginocarn are mostly good for a long term effect on the brain but some will get great focus and im sure there is also some endurance benefit. coupled with pterostilbene at 228mg and pyruvic acid and orotic acid there will be such an insane increase in mitochondrial energy, a first working set will feel like a warm up. i remember how crazy my training and shape was at tha time...)

i cant wait to get most of these things together as they make a huge difference for me, mor than just adding more gear as its a completely different approach to performance.

i was only posting what has worked best for me. i definitely dont want a company releasing a pre with all this.

to the companies: its all crap, dont use any of tha ****. nobody will buy it. leave it for idiots like me please

LOL

 

[redman24]

You literally have NO idea what you're talking about. AT ALL. "Once you bench 300 for 2 reps you can never bench 280 even for 10 sets".. you're not really this dense are you?

It's funny that you make a thread trying to expose pseudoscience whilst propagating it yourself.

Just stop dude, and never program for anyone (even yourself) from this day on.

Moreover, this post is surely in the wrong thread.

you realize conditioning to mechanical tension is proven? no? i said that once you have used the heaviest weight yet, a lower weight cannot cause traumata. this is also proven. read up on hst by brian haycock, forget deconditioning and the rep schemes, all that matters is to progress in mechanical tension. you cant cause traumata with a weight thats lower than what you used your last workout.

 

[redman24]

i do not dislike sns. the products are all nicely dosed with good ingredients. however they would much better fit into the health nutrition category. inhibit-e is a great health supp but it is worthless as an ai. granted so is triazole and erase pro. alphadex on the other hand is better than ariimidex and seems stronger than aromasin, both at max dosage.

 

[ManuR]

you realize conditioning to mechanical tension is proven? no? i said that once you have used the heaviest weight yet, a lower weight cannot cause traumata. this is also proven. read up on hst by brian haycock, forget deconditioning and the rep schemes, all that matters is to progress in mechanical tension. you cant cause traumata with a weight thats lower than what you used your last workout.

bullsh*t
you have so many varibles to induce muscle damage/hypertrophy

 

[muscleupcrohn]

you realize conditioning to mechanical tension is proven? no? i said that once you have used the heaviest weight yet, a lower weight cannot cause traumata. this is also proven. read up on hst by brian haycock, forget deconditioning and the rep schemes, all that matters is to progress in mechanical tension. you cant cause traumata with a weight thats lower than what you used your last workout.

What did I just read? Are you telling me that if I bench 300 today, that I can't cause "traumata" (interesting choice of words, but whatever) in subsequent workouts unless I use at least 300lbs? That is in direct contrast to literally every person who has ever lifted weights before. Be it powerlifters or bodybuilders, after maxing out, the subsequent workouts will use sub-maximal weights for more reps and/or more sets before an attempt at a new (heavier) max is attempted. Your logic seems to say that we have to increase the weight every single workout, not just from the last workout, but from the heaviest we have ever lifted. That's beyond asinine, and easily disproved by countless studies and anecdotal evidence.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

To further clarify the statements regarding the possiblity of causing "traumata" from sub-maximal weights, let us first actually phrase this in a reasonable (practical and understandable) way; is it possible to cause hypertrophy (which is the "traumata" we want from lifting weights) with sub-maximal weights? Clearly the answer is yes, as hypertrophy is actually best achieved with sub-maximal weights, time under tension etc. I would like to clarify to Redman, and anyone reading this, that muscle is not the same thing as freaking structural steel in regards to elastic deformation in response to sub-maximal loads. I can't believe I actually had to type that out, but here we are.

 

[redman24]

actually conditioning to mechanical tension is proven without doubt. MICROTRAUMATA ffs, at least thats the german terminology.
you can keep gaining after maxing out because your muscle deconditions and after a few weeks will respond to lower weights again. still, a weight is only effective at the most for 3 workouts after which you are basically standing still. if you managed to create an anabolic response every workout you would gain several pounds of muscle every month. hence why people who did cluster hst doing full body workouts all day every day at home with a set at least every 10 min. had gains of 2 inches on their arms in 2 weeks or 16 pounds of muscle mass in 6 weeks training 6 times a week but only for 1-2 hours.

how could i gain 5kg (11 pounds) while losing bf to competition level from 8-9 down to...honestly i dont know but i had thick blue veins all over abs and it was near impossible to grab skinfold, caliper gave a 3% reading, i say 6% but who knows in 2-3 months eating 5000 calories, getting stronger each workout, doing full body 5x per week, sometimes 2x per day?

i don't have good genes for strength oriented sports and hypertrophy was never of interest, only strength and losing all bodyfat to be found. others could have more extreme results. you realize also that MPS is only elevated for 36 hours really when it is already near nothing, so ideally one should train every muscle every day. if one can only do 3 workouts its better to do 3 in a row than to spread them over the week. training into microtraumata potentiated the anabolic response like crazy.

read up on hst and mechanical tension and the studies, just forget the deconditioning and set rep schemes.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

actually conditioning to mechanical tension is proven without doubt. MICROTRAUMATA ffs, at least thats the german terminology.
you can keep gaining after maxing out because your muscle deconditions and after a few weeks will respond to lower weights again. still, a weight is only effective at the most for 3 workouts after which you are basically standing still. if you managed to create an anabolic response every workout you would gain several pounds of muscle every month. hence why people who did cluster hst doing full body workouts all day every day at home with a set at least every 10 min. had gains of 2 inches on their arms in 2 weeks or 16 pounds of muscle mass in 6 weeks training 6 times a week but only for 1-2 hours.

how could i gain 5kg (11 pounds) while losing bf to competition level from 8-9 down to...honestly i dont know but i had thick blue veins all over abs and it was near impossible to grab skinfold, caliper gave a 3% reading, i say 6% but who knows in 2-3 months eating 5000 calories, getting stronger each workout, doing full body 5x per week, sometimes 2x per day?

i don't have good genes for strength oriented sports and hypertrophy was never of interest, only strength and losing all bodyfat to be found. others could have more extreme results. you realize also that MPS is only elevated for 36 hours really when it is already near nothing, so ideally one should train every muscle every day. if one can only do 3 workouts its better to do 3 in a row than to spread them over the week. training into microtraumata potentiated the anabolic response like crazy.

read up on hst and mechanical tension and the studies, just forget the deconditioning and set rep schemes.

I didn't say that your terminology was wrong, just that it was interesting. I rephrased it to "hypertrophy" for the sake of the general population being able to understand what we're talking about, as hypertrophy is indeed what we want when we workout. Furthermore, there's more than one way to skin a cat; there's more than one way to get bigger and stronger. Anyone claiming to have a monopoly on truth, or the "only" or even "definitive best" way to build strength/mass for everyone is full of sh**. Surely you know that weight (absolute weight, like 300lbs for example) is not the only factor/variable at play in terms of hypertrophy. Repetitions and time under tension also clearly play a role here. Sub-maximal loads can undoubtedly cause hypertrophy; as I said before, the muscles are not the same things as structural steel in regards to elastic deformation from the application of sub-maximal loads.

 

[ManuR]

actually conditioning to mechanical tension is proven without doubt. MICROTRAUMATA ffs, at least thats the german terminology.
you can keep gaining after maxing out because your muscle deconditions and after a few weeks will respond to lower weights again. still, a weight is only effective at the most for 3 workouts after which you are basically standing still. if you managed to create an anabolic response every workout you would gain several pounds of muscle every month. hence why people who did cluster hst doing full body workouts all day every day at home with a set at least every 10 min. had gains of 2 inches on their arms in 2 weeks or 16 pounds of muscle mass in 6 weeks training 6 times a week but only for 1-2 hours.

how could i gain 5kg (11 pounds) while losing bf to competition level from 8-9 down to...honestly i dont know but i had thick blue veins all over abs and it was near impossible to grab skinfold, caliper gave a 3% reading, i say 6% but who knows in 2-3 months eating 5000 calories, getting stronger each workout, doing full body 5x per week, sometimes 2x per day?

i don't have good genes for strength oriented sports and hypertrophy was never of interest, only strength and losing all bodyfat to be found. others could have more extreme results. you realize also that MPS is only elevated for 36 hours really when it is already near nothing, so ideally one should train every muscle every day. if one can only do 3 workouts its better to do 3 in a row than to spread them over the week. training into microtraumata potentiated the anabolic response like crazy.

read up on hst and mechanical tension and the studies, just forget the deconditioning and set rep schemes.

dude please, stop writing so much without giving any details.
you are know for running enormous amounts of ****, for example 300mg trest daily or **** like that. Everyone gets stronger and leaner with such an amount and adequate estro management

 

[muscleupcrohn]

dude please, stop writing so much without giving any details.
you are know for running enormous amounts of ****, for example 300mg trest daily or **** like that. Everyone gets stronger and leaner with such an amount and adequate estro management

Would anyone else like to see some pics/videos of him being stronger than Ronnie Coleman? Either way, it really has nothing to do with this conversation, as science is right or wrong by virtue of it's truth/accuracy, not the character/achievements of the person saying it, but I'd still like to see these feats of strength. Am I the only one?

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

I'd like to see this german study he is citing...

Honestly I havent made it through his posts yet so Im holding my comment until Im done reading

EDIT: made it through posts....Don't need to comment. Jiigzz got that covered.

 

[HIT4ME]

actually conditioning to mechanical tension is proven without doubt. MICROTRAUMATA ffs, at least thats the german terminology.
you can keep gaining after maxing out because your muscle deconditions and after a few weeks will respond to lower weights again. still, a weight is only effective at the most for 3 workouts after which you are basically standing still. if you managed to create an anabolic response every workout you would gain several pounds of muscle every month. hence why people who did cluster hst doing full body workouts all day every day at home with a set at least every 10 min. had gains of 2 inches on their arms in 2 weeks or 16 pounds of muscle mass in 6 weeks training 6 times a week but only for 1-2 hours.

how could i gain 5kg (11 pounds) while losing bf to competition level from 8-9 down to...honestly i dont know but i had thick blue veins all over abs and it was near impossible to grab skinfold, caliper gave a 3% reading, i say 6% but who knows in 2-3 months eating 5000 calories, getting stronger each workout, doing full body 5x per week, sometimes 2x per day?

i don't have good genes for strength oriented sports and hypertrophy was never of interest, only strength and losing all bodyfat to be found. others could have more extreme results. you realize also that MPS is only elevated for 36 hours really when it is already near nothing, so ideally one should train every muscle every day. if one can only do 3 workouts its better to do 3 in a row than to spread them over the week. training into microtraumata potentiated the anabolic response like crazy.

read up on hst and mechanical tension and the studies, just forget the deconditioning and set rep schemes.

I would put $10 down saying that not only has muscleupcrohn likely read up on HST, but he probably understands it far better than you, sorry.

You have comprehension and logic issues. Here's one issue with your theory:

"the muscle conditions to the maximum weight used. if you do, at the most, 3 workouts in which you do just one single max rep of bench you have basically ****ed yourself in terms of growth because the only thing that will now cause traumata is heavier benching.
its because the muscle responds to mechanical tension by building a protective layer which can only be broken by load. no different angle, intensity techniques, volume, mtut, whatever does anything but increase glycogen in aas users."

First, the muscle doesn't condition to any weight. It conditions to a stress. It has no idea if you are lifting 10 pounds or 300 pounds. And that fact leads to the second flaw in the statement - no "angle" will cause any difference? Well, obviously a lesser weight at a less advantageous angle will create a greater stress on the muscle...and thus require some adaptation regardless.

Also, you do realize that increased glycogen is not really the only impetus for growth, right? And why would it be different in AAS users vs natural users? I mean, its still a muscle and operates the same whether you are natural or not.

3rd, how did this even come up? You just start rambling about how everyone is wrong about training? Normally I am the guy trying to take the path less traveled and explain my ideas to people...so I applaud you for that, but you're just giving it a bad name now.

This is like the ultimate trolling thread:

Premise: Everyone else is using pseudoscience

Evidence: I don't pay attention to researchers, I listen to people with "Chronic Fatigue" and base my supplements on "feel". Oh, and I doctor shop until I find one that will listen to me, instead of paying attention to medical guidelines, and prescribe opioids.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

i was saying that i find the stims used in preworkouts these days feel very dirty compared to LOW dose medical methamphetamine or dexedrine. im talking max. 10mg d-METHamphetamine, street users will use 100mg at once, sometimes more, some a gram or more per day.
its just that some years back the stims in pres were quitee pleasant but for me they feel dirtier and worse over time and feel like bad street drugs actually compared to the medical version of some street drugs in doses prescribed for clinical conditions.

using a full serving of one the current hardcore pres makes me feel horrible, just paranoid, heart racing, no endurance.
i cant wait till in some weeks time i will be using 400mg purenergy+200mg caffeine anhydrous (372mg caffeine+228mg pteropure), 1.5g arginocarn, 300mg alpha-gpc as the basis of my pre. also 1mg methylfolate and 1mg methylcobalamine. this will just feel comfortable while not killing endurance or causing paranoia, in fact it should increase endurance and cognition quite a bit and improve mood (methylfolate is too low in 70% of people with depression, making them unable to resond to reuptake inhibitors aka ssri ssnri dnri)

that itself would already beat most combinations, now adding things like creatinol-o-phosphate,l-carnitine fumarate, amentoflavone (for me it works great), creatine-pyruvate, orotic acid, ubiquinol, shilajit....

well you could add a million things or just a few. i think compounds that really increase strenght and compounds for mitochondrial energy are best. i prefer breaking prs every workout to getting a huge pump.

so all i can think of is c-o-p as for me it increases strength, not so much endurance, amento, maybe calcium-orotate to get calcium and orotic acid, i havent found the ratios yet (i mean how many percent is calcium and how many orotic acid by weight). ubiquinol+shilajit and creatine-pyruvate (only form of creatine i respond to.

i have a tendency to write too much, but for me its not hard to get all the ingredients as i get most from 2 formulas. in the end i have
372mg caffeine
228mg pteropure (from 400mg purenergy)
300mg alpha-gpc
1.5g arginocarn
1mg m-folate
1mg m-cobalamine

c-o-p
amento
calcium
orotic acid
creatine
pyruvic acid (neither creatine works for me, nor does pyruvate do much as far as i know but the combination as creatine-pyruvate works great)
ubiquinol
shilajit

i doubt any stimmed pre on the market will yield results comparable after 1 month use. especially since instead of taxing the cns this combination is incredibly healthy. i realize it would be near impossible to buy every compound alone but the basis is simple and cheap for me and a lot of things are add- ons which i may or may not take.

as strength is most important to me c-o-p and amento would be the two compunds i would not go without if i could only chose two. i think the basis with the huge amount of pteeropure from purenergy, the arginocarn and the active b vitamins will give plenty of endurance, especially mentally and energy that lasts for a long workout and is strong but not uncomfortable.
one may disagree but i dont think any pre on the market right now would be able to surpass this if you look at the results after 2-4 weeks. not one single workout, as stims will give some extra strenght but only for one workout, then you need to take them again to keep that strength.
this combination here will get better ever time you use it. that is what i am convinced of and if someone thinks he knows of a better combination which does not include buying 3 expensive formulas or 10 singlee ingrdients added to a stimmed pre combined with a pump pre but something that is in the range of affordability please let me know and tell me why you think so.

genuinely interested.

I would still argue low doses of these things cant be compared to the OTC supplements. Low dose test is leagues better then high dose creatine.

If you have any of the pharma stims in your system this would be a horrendous thing to do. Furthermore now you are comparing upper ends of OTC dosing schemes to the lowest dose of a pharma drug.

At the same “low doses” of these stims I would argue you wouldn't feel any of this. But because they aren’t as potent you have to push the dose higher, the higher the dose the higher the incidence of side effects. Even OTC stims at high doses will produce very similar side effects to more potent stims.

Furthermore the OTC stims aren’t as researched, not as regulated, and not tested to the degree where you really can end up getting a “dirty stim rush” because at the end of the day you may not be taking a supplement that meets label claims.


The next argument you make is the benefit of non-stim ergogenic aids vs stims. Stims serve a purpose…to stimulate, non-stims serve various purposes that may factor into overall ergogenic progress. So I don’t think it’s fair to compare the progress of some of the non-stims you mentioned to the progress of the stims. Stims serve to motivate you to workout, therefore if your in the gym feeling extra motivated the rest of the progress depends on the workout, the diet, and rest. Non-stims can serve multiple purposes and will contribute in sometimes every way except motivation. So I wouldn't want to judge the taste of an orange based on how it doesn't taste like a banana. Likewise I wouldn't judge the “effectiveness” if stimulants to their overall ergogenic potential(example don't compare clen to anadrol for strength gains)

As far as the formula you shared:
372mg caffeine → that's a hefty dose for the purposes of this argument
228mg 28mg pteropure (from 400mg purenergy) → don't have much experience with it
300mg alpha-gpc → underdosed
1.5g arginocarn → I prefer GPLC for workouts, but im not oppose to arginocarn as a general health supplement
1mg m-folate → why?
1mg m-cobalamine -→Why?


c-o-p → I don't have a strong stance on this
amento → never got to play with this so not too keen
calcium → Ca preworkout….I have mixed feelings
orotic acid → sure
creatine → why not
pyruvic acid (neither creatine works for me, nor does pyruvate do much as far as i know but the combination as creatine-pyruvate works great)
ubiquinol → better in a health formula
shilajit -→ same but as CoQ10

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I would put $10 down saying that not only has muscleupcrohn likely read up on HST, but he probably understands it far better than you, sorry.

You have comprehension and logic issues. Here's one issue with your theory:

"the muscle conditions to the maximum weight used. if you do, at the most, 3 workouts in which you do just one single max rep of bench you have basically ****ed yourself in terms of growth because the only thing that will now cause traumata is heavier benching.
its because the muscle responds to mechanical tension by building a protective layer which can only be broken by load. no different angle, intensity techniques, volume, mtut, whatever does anything but increase glycogen in aas users."

First, the muscle doesn't condition to any weight. It conditions to a stress. It has no idea if you are lifting 10 pounds or 300 pounds. And that fact leads to the second flaw in the statement - no "angle" will cause any difference? Well, obviously a lesser weight at a less advantageous angle will create a greater stress on the muscle...and thus require some adaptation regardless.

Also, you do realize that increased glycogen is not really the only impetus for growth, right? And why would it be different in AAS users vs natural users? I mean, its still a muscle and operates the same whether you are natural or not.

3rd, how did this even come up? You just start rambling about how everyone is wrong about training? Normally I am the guy trying to take the path less traveled and explain my ideas to people...so I applaud you for that, but you're just giving it a bad name now.

This is like the ultimate trolling thread:

Premise: Everyone else is using pseudoscience

Evidence: I don't pay attention to researchers, I listen to people with "Chronic Fatigue" and base my supplements on "feel". Oh, and I doctor shop until I find one that will listen to me, instead of paying attention to medical guidelines, and prescribe opioids.

The whole premise is utter insanity. Using this logic, the best bet in terms of muscle growth is to do only one set of one exercise (since volume and angles apparently don’t matter). But we also have to increase the weight used each workout, above what we’ve ever done before. And apparently there’s a magic 3 workout period after which lower weights than your max will no longer elicit hypertrophy. So max out, then do lighter weights for 3 workouts, then max out again. Rinse and repeat. Forget multiple exercises/angles, volume, reps, time under tension. Clearly this makes no sense...

 

[Jiigzz]

you realize conditioning to mechanical tension is proven? no? i said that once you have used the heaviest weight yet, a lower weight cannot cause traumata. this is also proven. read up on hst by brian haycock, forget deconditioning and the rep schemes, all that matters is to progress in mechanical tension. you cant cause traumata with a weight thats lower than what you used your last workout.

You're in way over your head here buddy. Stop using the word proven to assert a stance you know nothing about. I feel like you secretly made this thread about yourself - you have more pseudoscience than a shop selling FAT water.

I've got some free time, and maybe others might benefit from what i'm about to write so i'll respond with actual evidence - something that your arguments seem to lack.

As a few people know, Brad Schoenfeld is considered one of the premier hypertrophy researchers, and has the most comprehensive review on the subject currently available. With that in mind, a lot of what I say here based on his research, or the research of his peers.

See this research paper here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15574075

Titled: Muscular adaptations to combinations of high- and low-intensity resistance exercises.

Before there is any dispute, intensity refers to a % of 1 rep max, and not perceived intensity. So this paper specifically addresses combining 1-2 rep maxes, with up to 12 reps.

Findings? Muscle CSA after this period also tended to be larger in the COMBINATION group than in the HYPERTROPHY OR STRENGTH groups separately. (p = 0.08).

Hmm, can't grow muscle on a combination because it's proven? Then why could they in this sample?

In this publication here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232099449_Varying_Neural_and_Hypertrophic_Influences_in_a_Strength_Program

they identify that both a strength training program with 1 or 2 rep maximums included helps maximise the hypertropic response, because an incomplete neuromuscular element may lead to incomplete hypertrophy across muscle fibers. We also know that volume accounts for a huge role in creating metabolic stress, which a strength/ powerlifting program has in spades.

Some of their views in this paper are outdated, but some still hold true.

Now for link spam: Effects of undualting periodisation on hypertrophy and strength vs linear progression.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Wayne_Phillips3/publication/297344418_A_comparison_of_linear_and_daily_undulating_periodized_programs_with_equated_volume_and_intensity_for_local_muscular_endurance/links/57adfd8d08ae0101f1726fab/A-comparison-of-linear-and-daily-undulating-periodized-programs-with-equated-volume-and-intensity-for-local-muscular-endurance.pdf

From Brad: BarBend: What’s the recommended amount of reps to facilitate hypertrophy?

Schoenfeld: We recently published a meta-analysis on the topic that clearly shows hypertrophy can be attained across a wide spectrum of rep ranges – as high as 30-RM per set. Provided that the volume load is equated, there does not seem to be much difference in whole muscle hypertrophy between loading zones.

Outcomes? DUP was better for strength outcomes, but similar for hypertrophy. Meaning? *gasp* you can combine 2-3RM with hypertrophy and STILL make gains.

And so on and so on.

TL;DR: You are wrong.

 

[Jiigzz]

i do not dislike sns. the products are all nicely dosed with good ingredients. however they would much better fit into the health nutrition category. inhibit-e is a great health supp but it is worthless as an ai. granted so is triazole and erase pro. alphadex on the other hand is better than ariimidex and seems stronger than aromasin, both at max dosage.

Irrelevant, but OK

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Excuse me...Mr. Jiigzz...

Keep logic and reason out of this thread. Thanks

 

[HIT4ME]

The whole premise is utter insanity. Using this logic, the best bet in terms of muscle growth is to do only one set of one exercise (since volume and angles apparently don’t matter). But we also have to increase the weight used each workout, above what we’ve ever done before. And apparently there’s a magic 3 workout period after which lower weights than your max will no longer elicit hypertrophy. So max out, then do lighter weights for 3 workouts, then max out again. Rinse and repeat. Forget multiple exercises/angles, volume, reps, time under tension. Clearly this makes no sense...

Haha - I AM the guy who will tell you that you can grow with 1 set of 1 exercise. I'm THAT guy. And I still think he is completely wrong. haha.

You're in way over your head here buddy. Stop using the word proven to assert a stance you know nothing about. I feel like you secretly made this thread about yourself - you have more pseudoscience than a shop selling FAT water.

I've got some free time, and maybe others might benefit from what i'm about to write so i'll respond with actual evidence - something that your arguments seem to lack.

As a few people know, Brad Schoenfeld is considered one of the premier hypertrophy researchers, and has the most comprehensive review on the subject currently available. With that in mind, a lot of what I say here based on his research, or the research of his peers.

See this research paper here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15574075

Titled: Muscular adaptations to combinations of high- and low-intensity resistance exercises.

Before there is any dispute, intensity refers to a % of 1 rep max, and not perceived intensity. So this paper specifically addresses combining 1-2 rep maxes, with up to 12 reps.

Findings? Muscle CSA after this period also tended to be larger in the COMBINATION group than in the HYPERTROPHY OR STRENGTH groups separately. (p = 0.08).

Hmm, can't grow muscle on a combination because it's proven? Then why could they in this sample?

In this publication here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232099449_Varying_Neural_and_Hypertrophic_Influences_in_a_Strength_Program

they identify that both a strength training program with 1 or 2 rep maximums included helps maximise the hypertropic response, because an incomplete neuromuscular element may lead to incomplete hypertrophy across muscle fibers. We also know that volume accounts for a huge role in creating metabolic stress, which a strength/ powerlifting program has in spades.

Some of their views in this paper are outdated, but some still hold true.

Now for link spam: Effects of undualting periodisation on hypertrophy and strength vs linear progression.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Wayne_Phillips3/publication/297344418_A_comparison_of_linear_and_daily_undulating_periodized_programs_with_equated_volume_and_intensity_for_local_muscular_endurance/links/57adfd8d08ae0101f1726fab/A-comparison-of-linear-and-daily-undulating-periodized-programs-with-equated-volume-and-intensity-for-local-muscular-endurance.pdf

From Brad: BarBend: What’s the recommended amount of reps to facilitate hypertrophy?

Schoenfeld: We recently published a meta-analysis on the topic that clearly shows hypertrophy can be attained across a wide spectrum of rep ranges – as high as 30-RM per set. Provided that the volume load is equated, there does not seem to be much difference in whole muscle hypertrophy between loading zones.

Outcomes? DUP was better for strength outcomes, but similar for hypertrophy. Meaning? *gasp* you can combine 2-3RM with hypertrophy and STILL make gains.

And so on and so on.

TL;DR: You are wrong.

There you go again. Using your foolish pseudoscience research. I have 7 guys at my gym who listen to me. What more evidence could you want? You just keep drinking the kool-aid.

*heavy sarcasm just in case it was missed*

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

i do not dislike sns. the products are all nicely dosed with good ingredients. however they would much better fit into the health nutrition category. inhibit-e is a great health supp but it is worthless as an ai. granted so is triazole and erase pro. alphadex on the other hand is better than ariimidex and seems stronger than aromasin, both at max dosage.

I hate SNS.....Hate them with the fiery passions of a thousand suns....I hate that I don't have more of their products in my stash :rasp:

On the other hand...alphadex better then arimidex and seems stronger than aromasin? Tell me this is a joke PLEASE.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Alphadex:

Inhibit-E:

 

[Woody]

i do not dislike sns. the products are all nicely dosed with good ingredients. however they would much better fit into the health nutrition category. inhibit-e is a great health supp but it is worthless as an ai. granted so is triazole and erase pro. alphadex on the other hand is better than ariimidex and seems stronger than aromasin, both at max dosage.

So... a supplement, Alphadex, is better than Arimidex, a pharmaceutical AI, and stronger than Aromasin, a pharmaceutical AI.
I literally can't even....

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

So... a supplement, Alphadex, is better than Arimidex, a pharmaceutical AI, and stronger than Aromasin, a pharmaceutical AI.
I literally can't even....

It goes something like this:

:redeemerwhore:

Red I was taking you seriously until that post.

 

[redman24]

you missed the point, used selective perception and took my statements out of context.
of yourse doing 2 reps of bench per week (just a stupid example) is not ideal. but doing 2 reps of bench with your 5 rep max for 300 reps a week combines extremely heavy load with high, no extreme volume. and the first and last rep are equal, in fact the last is less as one becomes slower which reduces tension. also muscle failure has no benefit but cns overload.
why would anyone miss out on the possibility of doing extreme volume with extreme weight while not taxing the cns very much? i rep to failure is worse than 1000 reps without.

of course you can grow doing 30 reps. but if you alternate 5 reps with 30 reps, the 30 reps are cardio. only if you progress on 30 reps continuously then it will be effective. the thing is, you will never get strong training in rep ranges above 8-12.

doing 6 weeks of cluster-hst and anyone can gain more strength than normally in a year or years. whats the point in looking good when your gf can beat the **** out of you? srs, it feels good to be stronger than the biggest guy in almost every gym. imagine a girl is molested on the train by a group of guys. now you can take one and just throw him 10 feet against the window or out of the window if possible...lol. i think muscle should also be functional.

 

[redman24]

It goes something like this:

:redeemerwhore:

Red I was taking you seriously until that post.

well, studies that are so much loved show acacetin only to be able to inhibit aromatase up to 63%. arimidex manages 50% at the max. dose. and alphadex is not only acacetin. also on just 250mg test/week i get gyno using 2mg real arimidex per day. yet using acacetin i can control gyno on 300mg oral trestolone per day. and alphadex is preventing it so well it feels as strong as 200mg TD formestane, which reversed gyno on trest and is close to 2.5mg letro for me. if i took arimidex i would already have tits...

 

[redman24]

why do people keep calling bioequivalent substances in amounts occuring in sometimes hundreds to thousands of kg of plants supplements? these compounds have pharmacologic activity and are sometimes much stronger than current pharmaceuticals. pterostilben is not a supplement. it occurs in nature but using the amount of 1000kg of blueberries obviously is different than using blueberry extract. its synthetic but bioequivalent.

in 100 years i doubt people will still use medication with side effects unless they never get it. any research into selective medication yet lacks funding or is somehow being prevented. the pharmaceutial industry does not want healthy patients.
imagine HIV drugs being replaced with a 20 dollar "supplement". the poor shareholders...

 

[muscleupcrohn]

you missed the point, used selective perception and took my statements out of context.
of yourse doing 2 reps of bench per week (just a stupid example) is not ideal. but doing 2 reps of bench with your 5 rep max for 300 reps a week combines extremely heavy load with high, no extreme volume. and the first and last rep are equal, in fact the last is less as one becomes slower which reduces tension. also muscle failure has no benefit but cns overload.
why would anyone miss out on the possibility of doing extreme volume with extreme weight while not taxing the cns very much? i rep to failure is worse than 1000 reps without.

of course you can grow doing 30 reps. but if you alternate 5 reps with 30 reps, the 30 reps are cardio. only if you progress on 30 reps continuously then it will be effective. the thing is, you will never get strong training in rep ranges above 8-12.

doing 6 weeks of cluster-hst and anyone can gain more strength than normally in a year or years. whats the point in looking good when your gf can beat the **** out of you? srs, it feels good to be stronger than the biggest guy in almost every gym. imagine a girl is molested on the train by a group of guys. now you can take one and just throw him 10 feet against the window or out of the window if possible...lol. i think muscle should also be functional.

I didn't use "selective perception," I took your absolute statement to its logical conclusion, which you admittedly may not have considered.

Furthermore, not everyone trains for strength primarily. Also, as someone with extensive experience in multiple disciplines of martial arts and combat, I would like to point out that "strength," in the form of a 1-RM on bench press is hardly an assurance of winning a fight. I would rather bench 300lbs and be well versed in stand-up and ground combat/martial arts than bench 400+lbs and have no experience here. Furthermore, no amount of strength of combat prowess will allow you do block/dodge bullets; even Bruce Lee, who I can assure you would make quick work of both you and I at the same time, said that he was no match for someone with a gun. Lifting weights with the deluded intention of throwing people across the room, especially a group of people, is silly. If you want to learn to fight, you surely should focus primarily on fighting, with weight training being a supplement to your martial arts practice. Also, in a fight, be it MMA/Jiu Jitsu/wrestling/etc, endurance is also very, very important, both cardiovascular endurance and muscular endurance; I'd argue that having solid mid-weight/rep strength would be more advantageous than just having a ton of 1-RM strength but no endurance.

Also, this conversation has gotten so far off the original topic that you couldn't see it with a telescope. We all have different reasons for lifting, who are you to say what mine should be, or what someone, anyone, besides yours should be?