question on Bulbine Natalensis

[obvious]

Trust me it was not easy goin' trying to type on my phone in a truck going 75 mph down the highway seemingly making sure we hit every pot hole possible.But my board rep felt certain issues had to be addressed sooner than later.LOL.

Thanks for chiming in and explaining things. As I'm sure is the same with many others - I'm very interested in this new APS product and can't wait to log it. Good luck with everything and get this stuff on the market!

 

[djbombsquad]

According to the super human radio taking more makes you produce less test so would having this stronger extraction be any better? I am not disregarding the plant they are using for toxins etc. Since they too are using stinging nettle I am sure we will feel something. The question is just taking this extraction alone, would it rase total test or shut it down? Like with the Phytoserm-347 if you take more than 2 caps in a 24 hour period you actually decrease test levels.

 

[more knowledge]

Sounds like you are selling "blood bulbine":aargh:

Lol.Blood bulbine that's good.I know as im reading it i have this picture of these poor guys out there in shackles at night working by the headlights of a bunch of pickup trucks!

 

[APS NUTRITION]

According to the super human radio taking more makes you produce less test so would having this stronger extraction be any better? I am not disregarding the plant they are using for toxins etc. Since they too are using stinging nettle I am sure we will feel something. The question is just taking this extraction alone, would it rase total test or shut it down? Like with the Phytoserm-347 if you take more than 2 caps in a 24 hour period you actually decrease test levels.

That was addressed in there.We (and he)are completely aware of the inverted "u" curve response that bulbine exhibits.It WILL be correctly dosed for testosterone elevation not decline.You must understand the conversion translation is not literal.Much like the formula for mg conversion from rats to humans (not literal either).You use the "body surface area" formula.You don't just take the same mgs and multiply by the human weight in kg,you have to use the body surface area formula to convert,it's not a literal translation.Same applies here(obviously diff formula)the conversion is not literal.Cmon',are you serious?

 

[mw1]

LOL.Sorry guys but we are on the road all weekend doing set ups.So while we are in the vehicle I have to do this on my phone so grammer and punctuation are not going to be a top priority until I get to a hotel room.I apologize.

Trust me it was not easy goin' trying to type on my phone in a truck going 75 mph down the highway seemingly making sure we hit every pot hole possible.But my board rep felt certain issues had to be addressed sooner than later.LOL.

Were you the driver or passenger while typing??
Thanks for the response ~I look forward to seeing some of your data

 

[djbombsquad]

Well I will be willing to give it a shot and compare it to phytoserm.

 

[southpaw23]

My two cents -- wait until APS releases literature in support of their product, then make a determination and/or comparisons to other bulbine products before bashing theirs.

Now in regards to these other companies bashing the "extracted" version of the plant, where is the science/studies/references/blood-work to support your products and or claims? Now here is where it gets tricky, because you''ll claim that there are blood tests supporting your product claims, yet they can only be found on your site(s) and none of them are independent in nature. You'll then make reference to one or two loggers getting blood work on their own, yet when asked where we can find the results of those blood tests, it appears you go on silent mode. The supp industry is competitive and to claim you've somehow managed to corner the market on science, while providing no independent blood work references of your own apart from rats and circus animals, it begins to sound like silly season.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

My two cents -- wait until APS releases literature in support of their product, then make a determination and/or comparisons to other bulbine products before bashing theirs.

Now in regards to these other companies bashing the "extracted" version of the plant, where is the science/studies/references/blood-work to support your products and or claims? Now here is where it gets tricky, because you''ll claim that there are blood tests supporting your product claims, yet they can only be found on your site(s) and none of them are independent in nature. You'll then make reference to one or two loggers getting blood work on their own, yet when asked where we can find the results of those blood tests, it appears you go on silent mode. The supp industry is competitive and to claim you've somehow managed to corner the market on science, while providing no independent blood work references of your own apart from rats and circus animals, it begins to sound like silly season.

^This. Althought to be fair it sounds as if APS's human data is in house as well. I'm still interested in seeing it though.

 

[djbombsquad]

In house? Hummm. I'm used to peer review medical journals but at least it is a start.

 

[APS NUTRITION]

^This. Althought to be fair it sounds as if APS's human data is in house as well. I'm still interested in seeing it though.

Sorry if I did not explain well.Our data is not in house it was done by a qualified chemist half way around the world for a pharmaceutical company researching a product for aids patients.The original work was not intended for Aps or the sports nutrition industry at all initially.That is why it is credible.We will be sharing bloodwork with you so that those of you that are interested can consider the results but even we would not expect all of you to form an opinion of our product based solely on "inhouse" bloodwork only or by some unqualified establishment hired by us to produce test results.We all know that we can get bloodwork to read however we want it to.I am not saying that is what anyone has done here but pointing out that that it is entirely and easily possible.
Our intention is not to try and convince other consumers that our product is better than another it's just to provide validation to our faithfull customers that already know our products work great and already know we are just trying to produce for you the most effective products we possibly can based on the available information and materials.That's it,no need for all the bickering.If you have taken mesomorph or creatine nitrate or any other Aps product you already know we are not the kind of company that just throws anything into a jar or cap.These are products made with quality and care and that's why they work so well.We are a little different our info is for the believers not the skeptics.If you are an I-force fan,buy tropinol and remain an I-force fan,that's great I like some of their products.You don't have to fight with us about our data we are not asking you to jump any fences here.
But for our faithfull and those undecided,we just want to show you the valid data and what lead us to believe this is the best material for the job.I'm flat out saying that the data suggests that it is the best material available for this application but until OUR blood tests verify that to us we can't claim that with absolute certainty.To fight based on personal opinion is rediculas,if anyone has independant data on a particular material post it up for everyone to consider.

 

[Rahl]

Let's just see what happens when some people start logging it. If we have anyone who has logged a prior bulbine product log this one that would be great. Not fo r a whose is better scenario but just to be able to say yay/nay it worked as well/better than product X.

Thanks for the add'l info APS. So far all of your products have been very solid so many people will be willing to give this one a shot too. Good luck with it!

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Sorry if I did not explain well.Our data is not in house it was done by a qualified chemist half way around the world for a pharmaceutical company researching a product for aids patients.The original work was not intended for Aps or the sports nutrition industry at all initially.That is why it is credible.We will be sharing bloodwork with you so that those of you that are interested can consider the results but even we would not expect all of you to form an opinion of our product based solely on "inhouse" bloodwork only or by some unqualified establishment hired by us to produce test results.We all know that we can get bloodwork to read however we want it to.I am not saying that is what anyone has done here but pointing out that that it is entirely and easily possible.
Our intention is not to try and convince other consumers that our product is better than another it's just to provide validation to our faithfull customers that already know our products work great and already know we are just trying to produce for you the most effective products we possibly can based on the available information and materials.That's it,no need for all the bickering.If you have taken mesomorph or creatine nitrate or any other Aps product you already know we are not the kind of company that just throws anything into a jar or cap.These are products made with quality and care and that's why they work so well.We are a little different our info is for the believers not the skeptics.If you are an I-force fan,buy tropinol and remain an I-force fan,that's great I like some of their products.You don't have to fight with us about our data we are not asking you to jump any fences here.
But for our faithfull and those undecided,we just want to show you the valid data and what lead us to believe this is the best material for the job.I'm flat out saying that the data suggests that it is the best material available for this application but until OUR blood tests verify that to us we can't claim that with absolute certainty.To fight based on personal opinion is rediculas,if anyone has independant data on a particular material post it up for everyone to consider.

Okay good to hear (regarding the data). I dont think anyone is saying or assuming one product is better or worse at this point. And actually I have used your creatine nitrate product and loved it, at the same time testotropin (version 1) was a less than positive experience for myself. As far as I'm aware the only current studies on bulbine natalensis are listed below. This is from a post I made on another forum.

I can't wait to see something published in humans though. Are you concerned that a pharma company will patent this though and make it prescription only? It sounds as if they are the ones funding this chemists work, correct?

PMID: 20645801

Not a very well known journal or cited often from my knowledge. The weird thing is that the higher dose used in the study did not result in an anabolic/androgenic effect. Whereas the smaller dose did. That makes me skeptical. I would have liked it more had it shown a positive dose/response curve.

PMID: 18710410

Another study where 25mg/kg and 50mg/kg were tested on rats. Definitely showed an increase in sexual activity as well as testosterone.

Here is a chart with a viagra comparison from the study:

And another showing test levels:

PMID: 19410284

Was reviewing the toxicology of bulbine...again showed some positives at 25 and 50mg/kg but not at 100mg/kg.

 

[thebigt]

my only question is when is testalensis going to be available-i have an app in to log it, and if picked can't wait to roll with it.


i have a good feeling about testalensis!

 

[nattydisaster]

Okay good to hear (regarding the data). I dont think anyone is saying or assuming one product is better or worse at this point. And actually I have used your creatine nitrate product and loved it, at the same time testotropin (version 1) was a less than positive experience for myself. As far as I'm aware the only current studies on bulbine natalensis are listed below. This is from a post I made on another forum.

I can't wait to see something published in humans though. Are you concerned that a pharma company will patent this though and make it prescription only? It sounds as if they are the ones funding this chemists work, correct?

You can't patent a naturally occurring ingredient


I like the sounds of the APS product...exciting stuff

 

[Royd The Noyd]

You can't patent a naturally occurring ingredient


I like the sounds of the APS product...exciting stuff

Do you think a pharma company would be cool with a small supplement company offering the same thing for a tenth the price? Do you think they would be cool with a supplement company using research they paid for to promote their product? Honest questions are honest.

 

[APS NUTRITION]

Do you think a pharma company would be cool with a small supplement company offering the same thing for a tenth the price? Do you think they would be cool with a supplement company using research they paid for to promote their product? Honest questions are honest.

Not only would they not be cool with it there would be certain litigation I'm sure.But as I explained on bb.com last week they opted against bulbine in favor of a cheaper synthetic product.That is the only reason we were able to get this material.Honestly we would not have spent hundreds of thousand of dollars to research bulbine to the extent they did,we are just the fortunate beneficiaries of the abandoned research and material.

 

[Milas]

This makes me even more interested in trying this out...

 

[thebigt]

This makes me even more interested in trying this out...

yup-in the words of george bush,

LET'S ROLL

 

[broons]

The more bulbine products on the market, the better for the consumer. Although I have tried both phtoserms-347 and Tropinol I was more than disappointed and would not purchase either again. Perhaps 3rd times the charm for a bulbine product?

Is there any chance the research done by this "well known" yet nameless chemist is on pubmed?

 

[VaughnTrue]

The more bulbine products on the market, the better for the consumer. Although I have tried both phtoserms-347 and Tropinol I was more than disappointed and would not purchase either again. Perhaps 3rd times the charm for a bulbine product?

Is there any chance the research done by this "well known" yet nameless chemist is on pubmed?

how have you had the time to use both? one came out in december, and one came out in january...


also, how did you dose both?(how many caps/day)

 

[ambulldog]

it is just a t-booster in the end. at least aps's "delivers" unlike iforce and ntbm's lol

 

[VaughnTrue]

it is just a t-booster in the end. at least aps's "delivers" unlike iforce and ntbm's lol

Now I'm just baffled.


How can a product deliver yet not even be available for purchase yet?

 

[ambulldog]

Now I'm just baffled.


How can a product deliver yet not even be available for purchase yet?

dude didnt you see the quotes around deliver? read aps thread something like first tbooster that actually delivers. it was sarcasm

 

[djbombsquad]

how have you had the time to use both? one came out in december, and one came out in january...


also, how did you dose both?(how many caps/day)

That is what I am confused about too. All of a suddon all these companys are claiming to have the herb got it cheeper from china too and yet it is only from Africa.

 

[MidwestBeast]

That is what I am confused about too. All of a suddon all these companys are claiming to have the herb got it cheeper from china too and yet it is only from Africa.

I believe that was cleared up when he said it was sarcasm.

 

[djbombsquad]

Oh okay. Cool.

 

[andrew732]

Usually I don't get into nonsense debacles of this sort, but you people who are complaining must have no life (no offense). At the end of the day, you have to realize these are NOT anabolics, they are natural supplements that help in the vitality department. What may work for one may not work for another. Secondly, I commend APS for making a step UP in the research and development of Bulbine N., as the owner put it, it has to start somewhere and become refined through innovation/research. You want to see how good it really is, do your own independent research and STOP COMPLAINING. You guys are worse than the Jersey Shore chicks...

 

[ambulldog]

Usually I don't get into nonsense debacles of this sort, but you people who are complaining must have no life (no offense). At the end of the day, you have to realize these are NOT anabolics, they are natural supplements that help in the vitality department. What may work for one may not work for another. Secondly, I commend APS for making a step UP in the research and development of Bulbine N., as the owner put it, it has to start somewhere and become refined through innovation/research. You want to see how good it really is, do your own independent research and STOP COMPLAINING. You guys are worse than the Jersey Shore chicks...

man look who came outta the woodwork... i gotta talk to you i got some stuff you may want

 

[thebigt]

Usually I don't get into nonsense debacles of this sort, but you people who are complaining must have no life (no offense). At the end of the day, you have to realize these are NOT anabolics, they are natural supplements that help in the vitality department. What may work for one may not work for another. Secondly, I commend APS for making a step UP in the research and development of Bulbine N., as the owner put it, it has to start somewhere and become refined through innovation/research. You want to see how good it really is, do your own independent research and STOP COMPLAINING. You guys are worse than the Jersey Shore chicks...

andrew-you are the man.:biggthumpup:

 

[andrew732]

Well I think more people would call the animal since I am not a civil socialite LOL

 

[EasyEJL]

Okay good to hear (regarding the data). I dont think anyone is saying or assuming one product is better or worse at this point. And actually I have used your creatine nitrate product and loved it, at the same time testotropin (version 1) was a less than positive experience for myself. As far as I'm aware the only current studies on bulbine natalensis are listed below. This is from a post I made on another forum.

I can't wait to see something published in humans though. Are you concerned that a pharma company will patent this though and make it prescription only? It sounds as if they are the ones funding this chemists work, correct?

your second chart is what has concerned me. The abrupt change of huge testosterone / lh increase to large decrease in going from 50-100mg makes you wonder. If the extract is different or the rat-human dose translation is off, you either end up with a less effective product, or one that causes the reverse effect of what you want.

 

[thebigt]

Well I think more people would call the animal since I am not a civil socialite LOL

glad you could leave the cave long enough to contribute.:biggthumpup:

 

[andrew732]

No prob, eating some almonds and fish as we speak, pun intended LOL

 

[thebigt]

No prob, eating some almonds and fish as we speak, pun intended LOL

multi-tasking, eh.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

your second chart is what has concerned me. The abrupt change of huge testosterone / lh increase to large decrease in going from 50-100mg makes you wonder. If the extract is different or the rat-human dose translation is off, you either end up with a less effective product, or one that causes the reverse effect of what you want.

Yes you could argue too, that this could be highly variable between individuals as well. So I bet we will see a lot of "non-responders" and potentially some with decreased test in the end.

 

[thebigt]

Yes you could argue too, that this could be highly variable between individuals as well. So I bet we will see a lot of "non-responders" and potentially some with decreased test in the end.

you didn't like the original testatropin? it was the 1st aps product i tried and i got some great results from it. so did everyone else according to the research i did on it before buying-it came recommended by some very knowledgeable people. the original testatropin was what spurred my interest in other aps products-very happy about that!!!! i haven't been disappointed in one single aps product yet, and from what i have seen and heard testalensis may just be the best of them all.:28:

 

[broons]

how have you had the time to use both? one came out in december, and one came out in january...


also, how did you dose both?(how many caps/day)

The phytoserms I began near the beginning of December. I started a thread here at the time. The tropinol I preordered and received around the first of the year and I have just finished it up recently.

Dosing for both products was 2 caps a day, being as I weigh 180 pounds.

 

[mw1]

The phytoserms I began near the beginning of December. I started a thread here at the time. The tropinol I preordered and received around the first of the year and I have just finished it up recently.

Dosing for both products was 2 caps a day, being as I weigh 180 pounds.

What was your exp with the two then?

 

[needtogetmuscle]

Basically if it isn't ProLensis there is no reason to take it. ProLensis is what was used in the Yakuba studies. A true 100:1 extract would be damn near impossible to dose correctly.

Exactly..


Now for the op saying I dont trust AR ( and works for the company putting out the new bulbine/fadoga product) I just have to say it makes you sound really retarded if on one hand you are saying " I would not trust AR" and then on the other hand your putting out a product that includes Two ingredients that AR pretty much pioneered lmao...

I mean I could see if you were saying " I dont like the guy" or " I think the guys a ****" But To say what you say and then put out a product using two ingredients he pretty much was the first to talk about and help bring to market is just silly.

AR was the first person to put Fadoga in a product with the myogenx product years ago. He did this through Protein factory with one of my other business partners. Now it was also AR with the makers of Prolensis that brought the bulbine to market first going through my company Ruthless.inc as the first company to put this out...


Bulbine/fadoga HMMMM I remember stating I would be coming out with this kind of a product soon. Wounder who will win this race. Good luck

 

[mw1]

Exactly..


Now for the op saying I dont trust AR ( and works for the company putting out the new bulbine/fadoga product) I just have to say it makes you sound really retarded if on one hand you are saying " I would not trust AR" and then on the other hand your putting out a product that includes Two ingredients that AR pretty much pioneered lmao...

I mean I could see if you were saying " I dont like the guy" or " I think the guys a ****" But To say what you say and then put out a product using two ingredients he pretty much was the first to talk about and help bring to market is just silly.

AR was the first person to put Fadoga in a product with the myogenx product years ago. He did this through Protein factory with one of my other business partners. Now it was also AR with the makers of Prolensis that brought the bulbine to market first going through my company Ruthless.inc as the first company to put this out...


Bulbine/fadoga HMMMM I remember stating I would be coming out with this kind of a product soon. Wounder who will win this race. Good luck

" I dont like the guy" ---" I think the guys a ****"...ok there i said it

Now I'm even more confused about his "involvement" with Bulbine

 

[needtogetmuscle]

Its not in a huge quantity. I also work for the company who is supplying ProLensis so maybe I can give a little back ground to help everyone be aware of what products to stay away from and which ones are ok or even likely ok.

As some of you may or may not know I write for a South African BBing magazine (the same one that AR writes for) and Im the official supp guru for Super Human Radio. What this means is that I have A LOT of connections in SA already and was able to email the researchers who did the Bulbine study right away and start sourcing the raw material.

We got samples pretty quickly and did our own blood work, which is the ONLY blood work done on Bulbine alone, in humans. The dosing we provide for ProLensis is based on our blood work results for our extract only. There is a definite dosing curve which AR talks about in his various blog posts. More is definitely not better. Actually its probably better to be a little on the low side then the high side.

After we confirmed the testing results we purchased ALL of the raw material available in early 2010. And by all I mean our supplier literally put workers in the fields and told them not to come out till they had gotten it all. By the time we got to June in 2010 we had decided that in order to keep a consistent supply we were going to go into business with our supplier and start share cropping with them in order to keep up with what we expected our needs were going to be. We didnt get more then 5kgs of finished ProLensis till Sept of 2010. It took that long from the day we got in touch with them to get enough material that we could cap up more then a few hundred caps at a time. IForce and RLS were the first ones to get ProLensis and between the two of them, they bought ALL the material we had for all of 2010.

You see with SA being in the southern hemisphere their seasons are different then ours and for their summer vacation they basically show up to work once a week for a couple hours. If you didnt get the material before they went on vaca you werent going to get any till their summer vaca was over (which was last week).

Now right before they left on vacation our total amount of raw material was over 1 ton. It was everything we could get at that point. No one else had any. I had tried contacting other suppliers hoping to get even more and they had none. You see Bulbine Natalensis (there are other Bulbine plants but the key is it being Natalensis) seems to grow in a specific region where there is enough moisture for these types of plants to grow. As you go more north and inland in Africa it doesnt grow. Anyway we had all that we could get and we had already sold all of it for 2010. they have just come back from vaca and we have just had a large portion of our 1+ton being crated up to be shipped over.

Im not saying that we have absolutely all of it and that no one can grow anymore but for 2010 (which would lead me to think that for at least the first few months of 2011) we had all we could get and we had the money to buy twice as much as we did. I would assume if there was some out there that those people would have wanted to sell it and we were buying.

Ive already gotten 2 price lists from China offering the material, got those samples and it did not match our material. In total we have tested about 6 different samples and none were the same as ours.

No one can use the ProLensis trademark without purchasing the raw through our company.

We think it probably is. For anyone to claim they are using something for a specific extract would be hard to believe from my point of view. I have every study done on Bulbine and I also have the original HPLC tests from the researchers. They did not extract for any specific compound so to claim otherwise without any actual scientific data to support that extract seems odd to me. We got blood work in humans on our extract so we know ProLensis works and we know what dose ProLensis works at. For everything else, I have no idea.

http://www.needtobuildmuscle.net/blog/2010/11/04/bulbine-natalensis-all-herbs-are-not-created-equal/
And I can attest to this...

One of the main reasons My self and Ruthless supplements was picked as the first company ever to come out with this Herb is because of the fact that were not a "huge company" . In fact My company NTBM was the company that was sought out to be the first and I came up with the Idea of bringing the product to my new company RLS which they did not know about but loved the Idea.

Point Being we were picked for a reason. Because our company has a great name, we are up and coming ,and most of all because we were mid size company. Not a huge company looking to buy thousands and thousands worth of the Herb which they just did not have. We fit the mold of the kind of company that was perfect for the amount of raws they had and we were willing to pay to be the first.

That is the facts short and simple. :grouphug:

 

[mw1]

What baffles me is why Sldg did not save this "exclusively" for a Driven Sports product??

 

[thebigt]

What baffles me is why Sldg did not save this "exclusively" for a Driven Sports product??

i might be mistaken, but i don't think he is sledge from ds???

 

[needtogetmuscle]

" I dont like the guy" ---" I think the guys a ****"...ok there i said it

Now I'm even more confused about his "involvement" with Bulbine

Ar makes nothing of the prolenses and has no stake in it. Other then Bragging rights and that is the way he likes it from what I know of AR these days. He has no interest in "braking into" the supplement industry in anyway, and his days of having stake or having anything to do with the profits of supplements are over from what I know. He's a reporter and writer by trade and that is what he wants to do most in his life..

At the same time Ar is friends with a lot of people and he likes to be involved with innovated things still. He still has a lot of interest in the industry and a lot of his friends own everything from supplement manufacturing companies to scientist who test herbs and such..

The time line on the story above coincides almost perfectly as to how things went with me and AR. AR contacted me about Apr or may of 2010 and was talking to me about this new Herb he was studying and doing testing on for some friends of his. Said there was not going to be a lot of this herb and the place doing the testing would be looking for a "Mid sized" good name company to be the company to bring it to market.

Over the years AR and I have been friends and although many people hate him for what ever reasons I have never had reasons to. He helped me get my First mod spot and start over on EF and we have been friends ever since.
So naturally this is why when Ar's friends started describing the kind of company they were looking for he tossed my name into the hate and the ball started rolling from there. At the time I was buying out Brutalalchemy and starting a new company Ruthless.com so I asked if it be ok if We brought the new herb/product out under this brand name... Little hesitate at first ( makers of prolnesis are very picky with who they give and what there proleniss goes into) they went for it. Contracts got drawn up and we ( ruthless.inc) had Test bottle being tested back in july of 2010 ( under the name Product x) being put out to the general public. All the test AR and the makers of prolensis did came back great and our "product x" testers one of whom was Andrew a well known member of this site was giving us great feed back. Another was radar a well known and respected long time member of ef and he was also very impressed.

The bottles we put out for testing were exactly what we were going to put out for a product. We even split the product up 1 cap twice a day with just the prolensis in it and the other 1 cap twice a day with the other ingredients in it Jeff stork aka quadsweep from elite and Rxmuscle was another one of our testers and through phone conversations with him he was also enjoying the product..

Before anyone had even dreamed of the product ( save maybe Iforce) we had already been there from the very start of it all. Doing studies and putting out test bottles as far back as July of last year.

All I know is there was a few HUGE deciding factors this herb was put out through NTBM/ruthless.inc first .. If there was billions of pounds of Good bulbine around. Enough for the makers of prolensis to make crap loads of it.. YOu think for a second a small mid sized company like NTBM/Ruthless.inc would have any chance in hell at getting to be the first company to come out with it?????? NO it happen for a reason. Because we fit the exact mold they needed at the time.

Dont think for a second other much larger companies were not biting at the bit for this. Carl Linor from super human radio and Anthony Roberts Both put in good words for me and my companies and that along with the fact that we were perfect for the job made it all come together the way it did.

For that I thank both of them as I always have for being good friends.

 

[needtogetmuscle]

damn it M1 guess I have to spread before I can hit you again.

 

[thebigt]

in my experience competion is good for the comsumer. lets hope all these company's competing for the bulbine dollar gives us some good products. i have read several reviews of both products now out, and i can't wait to give aps's new product a try.:biggthumpup:

 

[needtogetmuscle]

in my experience competion is good for the comsumer. lets hope all these company's competing for the bulbine dollar gives us some good products. i have read several reviews of both products now out, and i can't wait to give aps's new product a try.:biggthumpup:

I hardly even Know APS but from friends I have heard they are good peeps. I was talking about a bulbine/fadoga product weeks after I put out the phytoserm-347 product. I knew it was a great Idea from the start and I knew some one was going to jump on it lolol.. Should have kept my mouth shut about it till I was ready to put the product out. But now that the cat is fully out of the bag we have been planing this kind of product for a wile now. I announced it to my rep team and on my NTBM forums months back. Only reason its not out right now is because we will not use any other bulbine then prolensis and the makers of Prolensis have been have been a little back and forth with us about letting us have "more" of what little prolensis they have now in order to put it into this product.

But it looks like we may have come to a agreement and they will be sparing a bit of it for our new product. YAAAAAA


As for APS I wish them well and hope they have a great product. I'm not well known for talking a lot of trash. I've been caught doing it a few times in my many years but its not something that comes to mind for a lot of people when my name is brought up... I am just here to tell my side of things since it was one of my products brought up in the title of the thread.

Good wishes to everyone involved. And lets go Kill some Sh*t. :grouphug:

 

[needtogetmuscle]

it is just a t-booster in the end. at least aps's "delivers" unlike iforce and ntbm's lol

I am kind of wondering what you mean by this? What do you mean NTBM does not deliver ? We have nothing but great reviews on all of our products and we stand behind them with a 100% money back policy. Even after you have used a full bottle of our product if you are not happy we will give you a refund.

So regardless of this or that study, who has the best and what ever. When the rubber meets the rode we back our products to the very end... Will others be doing the same? Will they be extending refunds to every single user who uses a bottle "opens it" and runs the "entire bottle" and then asks for a refund after????? I am not saying they wont be I am just saying we do and I dont know if others will be.

 

[thebigt]

I hardly even Know APS but from friends I have heard they are good peeps. I was talking about a bulbine/fadoga product weeks after I put out the phytoserm-347 product. I knew it was a great Idea from the start and I knew some one was going to jump on it lolol.. Should have kept my mouth shut about it till I was ready to put the product out. But now that the cat is fully out of the bag we have been planing this kind of product for a wile now. I announced it to my rep team and on my NTBM forums months back. Only reason its not out right now is because we will not use any other bulbine then prolensis and the makers of Prolensis have been have been a little back and forth with us about letting us have "more" of what little prolensis they have now in order to put it into this product.

But it looks like we may have come to a agreement and they will be sparing a bit of it for our new product. YAAAAAA


As for APS I wish them well and hope they have a great product. I'm not well known for talking a lot of trash. I've been caught doing it a few times in my many years but its not something that comes to mind for a lot of people when my name is brought up... I am just here to tell my side of things since it was one of my products brought up in the title of the thread.

Good wishes to everyone involved. And lets go Kill some Sh*t. :grouphug:

it seems the aps product and the ntbm product will be similar but not the same, in my understanding. since ntbm will be using prolensis and aps a extract.

it seems the ntbm product is closer to the i-force product than the aps version, imo.

 

[needtogetmuscle]

Usually I don't get into nonsense debacles of this sort, but you people who are complaining must have no life (no offense). At the end of the day, you have to realize these are NOT anabolics, they are natural supplements that help in the vitality department. What may work for one may not work for another. Secondly, I commend APS for making a step UP in the research and development of Bulbine N., as the owner put it, it has to start somewhere and become refined through innovation/research. You want to see how good it really is, do your own independent research and STOP COMPLAINING. You guys are worse than the Jersey Shore chicks...

From Andrews logs he loved our Phytoserm-347 .Ran a great log on a few different forums. Thank you for the feed back my man. You rock.