Push for FDA ban if Caffeine Powder

[Quadzilla99]

Lmao. Good lord.

 

[jrkarp]

Lmao. Good lord.

I was referring to DASCA.

But if you're cool with a nanny state looking over your shoulder then I guess you're getting what you want.

 

[RecompMan]

such is the case with half the laws..... :/

It's like

"Why don't we ban liter bottles of liqour" I know many people who do that and **** man, that could possibly kill some

Not me though, I'm a beast, I need more then a liter

Haha but all Seriousness people are dumb

Remember the lawsuit on hot coffee and all this ridiculousness

I'm going to ban the use of chainsaws too because you can accidentally kill yourself with that, or running with a knife

 

[RecompMan]

Damn! 1/16 of a teaspoon has 200mg of caffeine in it! Just seems like an unnecessary product when you can buy 500 tabs of 200mg for $15. I don't want to eyeball 1/16 of a teaspoon. I feel for the parents of the kids, but the last thing in the world we need is the government getting involved. Can we please just do our own due diligence and not have political retards getting in our way. You get them involved in caffeine and my god creatine is going to be next.

Bulk powders are for those experimenting with their own pres and other fat nurners

I have bull powder of caffeine I use it when I am making and capping **** for EBF to test

 

[T-Bone]

Caffeine is drug. Powdered caffeine shouldn't be used by anyone except for in a lab setting. I could see anyone making a mistake with dosing it, confusing it with another powder while rushing out the door...So many possibilities exist for a mistake to be made. The comparisons to donuts and creatine in this thread are absolutely ridiculous. It's powder caffeine, who cares if it's banned. You can get tablets for next to nothing.

 

[braskibra]

Caffeine is drug. Powdered caffeine shouldn't be used by anyone except for in a lab setting. I could see anyone making a mistake with dosing it, confusing it with another powder while rushing out the door...So many possibilities exist for a mistake to be made. The comparisons to donuts and creatine in this thread are absolutely ridiculous. It's powder caffeine, who cares if it's banned. You can get tablets for next to nothing.

If its such an easy mistake why do the statistics point otherwise?

 

[T-Bone]

If its such an easy mistake why do the statistics point otherwise?

Not sure how long the actual powdered version has been widely available to the general public. I'm not sure statistics prove much anyhow.

 

[jrkarp]

Caffeine is drug. Powdered caffeine shouldn't be used by anyone except for in a lab setting. I could see anyone making a mistake with dosing it, confusing it with another powder while rushing out the door...So many possibilities exist for a mistake to be made. The comparisons to donuts and creatine in this thread are absolutely ridiculous. It's powder caffeine, who cares if it's banned. You can get tablets for next to nothing.

I understand your point, but I don't believe that it's the government's place to tell me that I can't have something because someone else might misuse it.

 

[T-Bone]

I understand your point, but I don't believe that it's the government's place to tell me that I can't have something because someone else might misuse it.

If it was caffeine in general I'd agree. Since it's the powdered form though I think it's actually a smart move.

 

[braskibra]

If it was caffeine in general I'd agree. Since it's the powdered form though I think it's actually a smart move.

i bet you also would like to ban beds without guard rails since they account for 400+ deaths per year

 

[HIT4ME]

I haven't read every response in this thread...but I think banning caffeine is ludicrous and will backfire. First, I think ALL chemicals and drugs should be legal. If you do something stupid, **** happens. Yes, tragic **** happens too. I'm not wishing it on anyone and I am sad for anyone who has tragic **** happen to them and sad for their families.

I have bulk caffeine powder and have no problem weighing out powders and reading labels. I have abused it. I have taken 600 mg at once (it actually feels really good to me, but DO NOT recommend it to others).

I also experiment with other bulk powders - some of which are very hard to source, at least for my non-chemist, non-supplement company abilities they are hard to source. This means that some of the powders I get, as hard as I might try, may be junk or more dangerous than what I am actually looking for.

When they ban caffeine powder, there will be legions of people who are still looking to use it in bulk supplement form, and now the powder will be unregulated, like poison. This does NOT strike me as a solution to the problem.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

i bet you also would like to ban beds without guard rails since they account for 400+ deaths per year

That's an absurd analogy (much like many of the others in this thread).

13 deaths is a lot from a dietary supplement. And this is being encouraged by the poison control centers within the United States. These are the people that deal with it everyday. You also must consider the number and seriousness of these problems. Death is bad, but kidney failures aren't so great either.

This isn't a ban on ALL caffeine. It's simply a request to remove bulk powdered caffeine from the market. Your freedom to use caffeine is not being taken away.

 

[braskibra]

That's an absurd analogy (much like many of the others in this thread).

13 deaths is a lot from a dietary supplement. And this is being encouraged by the poison control centers within the United States. These are the people that deal with it everyday. You also must consider the number and seriousness of these problems. Death is bad, but kidney failures aren't so great either.

This isn't a ban on ALL caffeine. It's simply a request to remove bulk powdered caffeine from the market. Your freedom to use caffeine is not being taken away.

Thanks captain obvious

call something absurd, then provide no reasoning. Its absurd because .... ... .... ....

You also stated that cigarettes should be legal because they cannot cause acute deaths, seemingly making it sound more acceptable that people die from cigarette use, despite the fact that deaths from smoking and deaths from bulk caffeine aren't even in the same bracket on a yearly basis.


13 deaths was including energy drinks, 5 of which were associated with monster... .... ...

Literally your argument is well people might use it incorrectly!!!!!!

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Perhaps there could be a "storage suggestion" on the container, sort of like you might find a "serving suggestion". For example, "Do not store in your household pantry or larder, as this is where most other innocuous consumables are stored and as such this product being placed in such a locale may unwittingly confuse the unwary."

Or something like that.

 

[Royd The Noyd]

Thanks captain obvious

call something absurd, then provide no reasoning. Its absurd because .... ... .... ....

You also stated that cigarettes should be legal because they cannot cause acute deaths, seemingly making it sound more acceptable that people die from cigarette use, despite the fact that deaths from smoking and deaths from bulk caffeine aren't even in the same bracket on a yearly basis.


13 deaths was including energy drinks, 5 of which were associated with monster... .... ...

Literally your argument is well people might use it incorrectly!!!!!!

I appreciate the insult.

Cigarettes are legal. Now a cigarette that contains enough tobacco to kill you from one smoke, that would be illegal (assuming it's even possible).

That's also a proper analogy in this scenario.

 

[braskibra]

I appreciate the insult.

Cigarettes are legal. Now a cigarette that contains enough tobacco to kill you from one smoke, that would be illegal (assuming it's even possible).

That's also a proper analogy in this scenario.

dont be so cheeks, it wasnt an insult cap

Again your arguing its ok cigarettes are legal because issues do not manifest themselves immediately.

"Cigarette smoking causes about one of every five deaths in the United States each year.1,6 Cigarette smoking is estimated to cause the following:1
More than 480,000 deaths annually (including deaths from secondhand smoke)
278,544 deaths annually among men (including deaths from secondhand smoke)
201,773 deaths annually among women (including deaths from secondhand smoke)"


Yay lets ban bulk caffeine thooooooo cuz it can kill you if YOU use it improperly. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of people die every year from smoking, many of whom breathe in second hand smoke.

 

[jamesm11]

There's a lot of ridiculous stuff in this thread. They are looking to ban the pure powder because it would be easy to overdose when 1/16 tsp = 200mg. Also, there is a viable option with the pills, which will factor into the case. Realistically there is no utility to the powder that the capsules cannot provide, or, if there is, it isn't greater than the potential harm this product poses (death is already proven).

Comparing it to alcohol, cigarettes, hot coffee, etc. is absurd and not a realistic legal argument. Also, watch the "Hot Coffee" documentary, chances are you dont know all the facts.

 

[BCseacow83]

I am against banning it in powder form. I also expect people to be able to sustain a thought in their heads.......I am often disappointed. Kids do stupid stuff, adults do stupid stuff. We have regulations up the wazoo for drugs and alcohol. Kids manage to kill themselves just fine despite our well meaning best intentions. I am tired of trying to save idiots.

 

[EatMoar]

That's an absurd analogy (much like many of the others in this thread).

13 deaths is a lot from a dietary supplement. And this is being encouraged by the poison control centers within the United States. These are the people that deal with it everyday. You also must consider the number and seriousness of these problems. Death is bad, but kidney failures aren't so great either.

This isn't a ban on ALL caffeine. It's simply a request to remove bulk powdered caffeine from the market. Your freedom to use caffeine is not being taken away.

Agreed. Ban caffeine powder but not caps/pills. Really easy to overdose if you mis-measure.

 

[jrkarp]

Agreed. Ban caffeine powder but not caps/pills. Really easy to overdose if you mis-measure.

And yet overdoses are extremely rare. So we should restrict choice for the entire country because a few people die of caffeine overdoses every year?

 

[Jiigzz]

And yet overdoses are extremely rare. So we should restrict choice for the entire country because a few people die of caffeine overdoses every year?

Its not just about ODing though is it. Its about medical resources being redirected from more important matters

 

[HIT4ME]

Its not just about ODing though is it. Its about medical resources being redirected from more important matters

This is the exact argument for why EVERY drug should be legal if cigarettes and alcohol are legal. And alcohol is probably a better example....it can mistakenly kill and does so every day, it can be intentionally used for suicide, ERs are swarmed with the after effects of its use at any given moment, etc.

Cigarettes and alcohol have a larger economic cost to society than all other drugs combined I would bet - yet they are legal. The laws just don't make any sense.

 

[meltedbarrel]

Government is not making billions of dollars off of bulk caffeine powder sales.

 

[HIT4ME]

Government is not making billions of dollars off of bulk caffeine powder sales.

....YET. haha.

 

[braskibra]

There's a lot of ridiculous stuff in this thread. They are looking to ban the pure powder because it would be easy to overdose when 1/16 tsp = 200mg. Also, there is a viable option with the pills, which will factor into the case. Realistically there is no utility to the powder that the capsules cannot provide, or, if there is, it isn't greater than the potential harm this product poses (death is already proven).

Comparing it to alcohol, cigarettes, hot coffee, etc. is absurd and not a realistic legal argument. Also, watch the "Hot Coffee" documentary, chances are you dont know all the facts.

Its called instructions, read them

Your contradicting yourself, well realistically there are other options!!!! Its so easy to overdose!!! The potential harm this product poses!!!


Brb cigarrettes kill hundreds of thousands of people each year, brb alcoholism costs millions to treat

brb its an absurd argument cuz like it wouldn't be a good legal argument ROFL

Your right cigarettes and alcohol pose a much greater risk than bulk caffeine ever has

 

[EatMoar]

BAN EVERYTHINGFF

 

[PhoenixMuscle]

If the bulk caffeine has specific instructions, it is the consumer's choice to be incompetent. If instructions aren't followed, it is the consumer's choice to be incompetent.

As others in this thread have stated, there is another option (caffeine pills) which are more dumbass proof, but for those who can follow instructions, by all means use the bulk powder. No need to ban it when there are more serious causes of death out there.

In the end, the reason why stuff like this can get so easily banned while cigarettes/alcohol always get a "free pass" is because of the all powerful $ the government makes off of cigs/alcohol. The system is broken beyond repair IMO.

 

[jrkarp]

Its not just about ODing though is it. Its about medical resources being redirected from more important matters

You mean ER resources? Are you serious?

 

[Jiigzz]

You mean ER resources? Are you serious?

Who is pushing this through? Their resources.

 

[Jiigzz]

Sign another online petition

 

[HIT4ME]

For all of those saying the "potential to overdose" is the reason to ban caffeine....what exactly IS the potential to overdose? From what I see you would have to take 50-100 servings of caffeine, totaling 10-20 grams of powder, in order to overdose if you are a healthy person. Even if it only takes you 5 grams - that's an absurd abuse of the product, equal to 25-50 doses (depending if you consider 100 or 200 mg to be the dose).

Try taking 20 times the amount of aspirin that you normally take. And if you think people don't do that "by mistake", popping a pill here and another there, and another an hour later for days on end.....then I won't be able to convince you.

 

[jamesm11]

Its called instructions, read them

Your contradicting yourself, well realistically there are other options!!!! Its so easy to overdose!!! The potential harm this product poses!!!


Brb cigarrettes kill hundreds of thousands of people each year, brb alcoholism costs millions to treat

brb its an absurd argument cuz like it wouldn't be a good legal argument ROFL

Your right cigarettes and alcohol pose a much greater risk than bulk caffeine ever has

I didn't contradict myself at all. Judging by your grammar and argument, it just went over your head. Cigarettes will never be banned because America has a long history of tobacco crops sustaining the country, it is an outlier. Alcohol must be 21+ to purchase, cigarettes 18+, caffeine powder has no restriction. Furthermore, the capsules are a safer alternative that are currently available.

It would be similar if acetaminophen was sold in bulk powder form, the potential risk of harm is far greater than the utility it provides. Tylenol is capsulated for a reason, it is dangerous is measured incorrectly. This is no different.

Even a child would realize that 10+ no-doz pills is too much, whereas the powder is harder to determine what is too much in a child's hands.

 

[BCseacow83]

I didn't contradict myself at all. Judging by your grammar and argument, it just went over your head. Cigarettes will never be banned because America has a long history of tobacco crops sustaining the country, it is an outlier. Alcohol must be 21+ to purchase, cigarettes 18+, caffeine powder has no restriction. Furthermore, the capsules are a safer alternative that are currently available.

It would be similar if acetaminophen was sold in bulk powder form, the potential risk of harm is far greater than the utility it provides. Tylenol is capsulated for a reason, it is dangerous is measured incorrectly. This is no different.

Even a child would realize that 10+ no-doz pills is too much, whereas the powder is harder to determine what is too much in a child's hands.

So government should save idiots from themselves? Is that really what we want? If stupid people kill themselves WHO CARES!!!!! Not I.

 

[mountainman33]

So government should save idiots from themselves? Is that really what we want? If stupid people kill themselves WHO CARES!!!!! Not I.

It's called natural selection.

 

[braskibra]

I didn't contradict myself at all. Judging by your grammar and argument, it just went over your head. Cigarettes will never be banned because America has a long history of tobacco crops sustaining the country, it is an outlier. Alcohol must be 21+ to purchase, cigarettes 18+, caffeine powder has no restriction. Furthermore, the capsules are a safer alternative that are currently available.

It would be similar if acetaminophen was sold in bulk powder form, the potential risk of harm is far greater than the utility it provides. Tylenol is capsulated for a reason, it is dangerous is measured incorrectly. This is no different.

Even a child would realize that 10+ no-doz pills is too much, whereas the powder is harder to determine what is too much in a child's hands.

lmao, remember that time you have to call out people for grammar because your argument has hit rock bottom.

No one likes the grammar police captain


Acetaminophen capped!!!!! Even a child can realize 10 is too much!!!!!!!! O wait, they cant>>>>>>>

"Overdosing is especially common in children, who may be given too much medicine or may accidentally ingest it."

"Data compiled by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has linked as many as 980 deaths in a year to drugs containing acetaminophen."


980.... .... ...

Numbers dont lie captain

 

[hardwork25]

lmao, remember that time you have to call out people for grammar because your argument has hit rock bottom. No one likes the grammar police captain Acetaminophen capped!!!!! Even a child can realize 10 is too much!!!!!!!! O wait, they cant>>>>>>> "Overdosing is especially common in children, who may be given too much medicine or may accidentally ingest it." "Data compiled by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has linked as many as 980 deaths in a year to drugs containing acetaminophen." 980.... .... ... Numbers dont lie captain

Well obviously acetaminophen accidentally causes more deaths, when its in almost every single household. How many households have bulk caffeine powder?

So there goes that....

 

[jamesm11]

lmao, remember that time you have to call out people for grammar because your argument has hit rock bottom.

No one likes the grammar police captain


Acetaminophen capped!!!!! Even a child can realize 10 is too much!!!!!!!! O wait, they cant>>>>>>>

"Overdosing is especially common in children, who may be given too much medicine or may accidentally ingest it."

"Data compiled by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has linked as many as 980 deaths in a year to drugs containing acetaminophen."


980.... .... ...

Numbers dont lie captain

What are the number of households that have bulk caffeine vs. tylenol? Incidence rate per use is the only useful number, which you failed to provide. You also didn't argue anything other than "o wait, they can't."

And, as I've repeatedly said, medications provide a specific use, caffeine powder doesn't. The caps provide a safer alternative for almost the same cost. That is how the courts will view this if and when there is a products liability suit.

 

[Jiigzz]

For all of those saying the "potential to overdose" is the reason to ban caffeine....what exactly IS the potential to overdose? From what I see you would have to take 50-100 servings of caffeine, totaling 10-20 grams of powder, in order to overdose if you are a healthy person. Even if it only takes you 5 grams - that's an absurd abuse of the product, equal to 25-50 doses (depending if you consider 100 or 200 mg to be the dose).

Try taking 20 times the amount of aspirin that you normally take. And if you think people don't do that "by mistake", popping a pill here and another there, and another an hour later for days on end.....then I won't be able to convince you.

why is it, do you think, that aspirin isnt sold in powder form? Pills require a more concious effort to OD on, but if you had powdered aspirin, I bet there would be a call for its removal.

5g of caffeine would be around a teaspoon depending on its density; that alone would be enough to cause serious discomfort. Many people fail to fathom that a typical dose is so small.

They are not banning caffeine, just powder.

Its really not a big deal

 

[braskibra]

Well obviously acetaminophen accidentally causes more deaths, when its in almost every single household. How many households have bulk caffeine powder?

So there goes that....

Exactly so banning it is not going to make an appreciable difference, more people die from energy drinks we going to ban them as well!!!!!

What are the number of households that have bulk caffeine vs. tylenol? Incidence rate per use is the only useful number, which you failed to provide. You also didn't argue anything other than "o wait, they can't."

And, as I've repeatedly said, medications provide a specific use, caffeine powder doesn't. The caps provide a safer alternative for almost the same cost. That is how the courts will view this if and when there is a products liability suit.

The caps have not shown statistically to be safer, neither has the liquid drinks, and neither has preworkout supplements
The number of caffeine induced deaths is so low that banning bulk form again, will not make an appreciable difference
Surely you cannot believe that incidence per rate is the only important statistic.

why is it, do you think, that aspirin isnt sold in powder form? Pills require a more concious effort to OD on, but if you had powdered aspirin, I bet there would be a call for its removal.

5g of caffeine would be around a teaspoon depending on its density; that alone would be enough to cause serious discomfort. Many people fail to fathom that a typical dose is so small.

They are not banning caffeine, just powder.

Its really not a big deal

Captain, we get it ,its not a ban on all caffeine

Makers of aspirin do so under much more stringent guidelines. I keep hearing the argument well pills are safer!!!! Firstly, do you trust supplement companies working under much less stringent guidelines to appropriately dose caffeine pills. Secondly, the statistics have not shown that caffeine pills are safer. just as many deaths have been linked to pills and energy drinks. It all comes down to misuse and carelessness.
Its just as easy to make the argument that people that buy things in bulk are more conscience about what goes in their body.


But letting supplement companies measure it for me is much safer, ROFL!!!!



"Thirty-one supplements met our inclusion criteria. Twenty products listed caffeine on the label, and 9 of these products' labels (45%) listed an accurate amount of caffeine (within 10% more or less than the amount listed on the label). Caffeine amounts listed on the label of 5 of the 20 products (25%) varied widely from chromatographically determined levels, with ranges from 27% to 113% of the labeled quantity. Of the 20 products, 6 (30%) listed caffeine as an ingredient without providing an amount on the label. All 6 of these products contained high amounts of caffeine, ranging from 210 to 310 mg per serving.

Eleven supplement labels listed an herbal ingredient that naturally includes caffeine but did not list “caffeine” on the label. Green tea leaf extract was listed on all 11 labels, with 3 labels also including a second caffeine-containing ingredient (black tea leaf [n = 1], white tea leaf extract [n = 1], and kola nut [n = 1]). Our analyses revealed that these products contained no to minimal amounts of caffeine (range, 0-3 mg of caffeine per serving)"

"Caffeine Content of Dietary Supplements Consumed on Military Bases FREE
Pieter A. Cohen, MD; Selasi Attipoe, MA; John Travis, BS; Mark Stevens, MD; Patricia Deuster, PhD, MPH
[+] Author Affiliations
JAMA Intern Med. 2013;173(7):592-594. doi:10.1001/jamainternmed.2013.3254."

 

[kisaj]

While I agree with your points, I have to wonder if you call people "captain" in real life when making a point to help solidify it. You sure seem to use it a bit.

I know, I am being a captain by pointing this out. lol

 

[braskibra]

While I agree with your points, I have to wonder if you call people "captain" in real life when making a point to help solidify it. You sure seem to use it a bit.

I know, I am being a captain by pointing this out. lol

hahahahahah i dont mind being called a captain, i dont get as cheeks as most people in here

 

[thebigt]

geez...didn't they ban dmaa? bet i can still get it!!!!


so i wonder if the dea will be the enforcement arm for this, i mean they have done such a terrific job with the war on drugs that nixon started in 1971...

 

[De__eB]

I can see the merits of both sides of this, on the one hand, bulk caffeine powder allows people to get a really long term supply for really cheap.

On the other hand, it is problematic for people who don't have an mg scale to accurately dose it.

I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to buy bulk caffeine powder, but I can certainly understand why we don't want dumb kids buying it.

Hard to find a happy medium.

 

[jrkarp]

I didn't contradict myself at all. Judging by your grammar and argument, it just went over your head. Cigarettes will never be banned because America has a long history of tobacco crops sustaining the country, it is an outlier. Alcohol must be 21+ to purchase, cigarettes 18+, caffeine powder has no restriction. Furthermore, the capsules are a safer alternative that are currently available.

It would be similar if acetaminophen was sold in bulk powder form, the potential risk of harm is far greater than the utility it provides. Tylenol is capsulated for a reason, it is dangerous is measured incorrectly. This is no different.

Even a child would realize that 10+ no-doz pills is too much, whereas the powder is harder to determine what is too much in a child's hands.

Acetaminophen is sold in caps because it's regulated as a drug. Federal law and regulation specify approved dosage forms.

Same for aspirin.

 

[jrkarp]

why is it, do you think, that aspirin isnt sold in powder form? Pills require a more concious effort to OD on, but if you had powdered aspirin, I bet there would be a call for its removal.

5g of caffeine would be around a teaspoon depending on its density; that alone would be enough to cause serious discomfort. Many people fail to fathom that a typical dose is so small.

They are not banning caffeine, just powder.

Its really not a big deal

So you'd be ok if they banned books as long as they allowed magazines? I mean, it's not as if they banned the written word entirely.

 

[thebigt]

I can see the merits of both sides of this, on the one hand, bulk caffeine powder allows people to get a really long term supply for really cheap.

On the other hand, it is problematic for people who don't have an mg scale to accurately dose it.

I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to buy bulk caffeine powder, but I can certainly understand why we don't want dumb kids buying it.

Hard to find a happy medium.

i have said it before, i will say it again....you cannot write laws that will protect stupid people from themselves. stupid people are always going to find ways to hurt themselves!!!

according to your logic guns, knives and sharp instruments should also be banned because of the risk of a stupid person doing something stupid!!!

 

[jrkarp]

I can see the merits of both sides of this, on the one hand, bulk caffeine powder allows people to get a really long term supply for really cheap.

On the other hand, it is problematic for people who don't have an mg scale to accurately dose it.

I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to buy bulk caffeine powder, but I can certainly understand why we don't want dumb kids buying it.

Hard to find a happy medium.

The happy medium is allowing people the opportunity to be responsible for themselves and their children.

 

[jamesm11]

Acetaminophen is sold in caps because it's regulated as a drug. Federal law and regulation specify approved dosage forms.

Same for aspirin.

You're skipping the step of why the sell them in those dosages, and why it's regulated. The reason is for safety and because small inaccuracies in dosage will cause harm. You state a conclusion without realizing how that came to be.

 

[jrkarp]

You're skipping the step of why the sell them in those dosages, and why it's regulated. The reason is for safety and because small inaccuracies in dosage will cause harm. You state a conclusion without realizing how that came to be.

Oh I know all that. I was simply pointing out that the comparison is a poor one. Incidentally, acetaminophen is more dangerous that caffeine, regardless of the form in which it is dosed.

I simply don't believe that in a free society, the appropriate response to a few isolated incidents is to make a new law banning things or restricting the whole populace. For example, there are literally tens of millions of "high capacity" magazines in the possession of millions of private citizens In the U.S. And yet some psycho uses a dozen or so when he shoots up a school and people want to punish millions for the bad actions of one. My own state forced me to give up thousands of dollars worth of legally acquired property in the wake of Sandy Hook.

Freedom is dangerous, and freedom demands personal responsibility. I believe that we are responsible for ourselves, and it is not the job of the government to protect us from ourselves - only from each other. I'm willing to accept the risk that more bad things will happen in a free society. A lot of people, clearly, are not.

 

[Jiigzz]

i have said it before, i will say it again....you cannot write laws that will protect stupid people from themselves. stupid people are always going to find ways to hurt themselves!!!

according to your logic guns, knives and sharp instruments should also be banned because of the risk of a stupid person doing something stupid!!!

You cannot protect stupid from stupid. Stupid will always be stupid

Oh I know all that. I was simply pointing out that the comparison is a poor one. Incidentally, acetaminophen is more dangerous that caffeine, regardless of the form in which it is dosed.

I simply don't believe that in a free society, the appropriate response to a few isolated incidents is to make a new law banning things or restricting the whole populace. For example, there are literally tens of millions of "high capacity" magazines in the possession of millions of private citizens In the U.S. And yet some psycho uses a dozen or so when he shoots up a school and people want to punish millions for the bad actions of one. My own state forced me to give up thousands of dollars worth of legally acquired property in the wake of Sandy Hook.

Freedom is dangerous, and freedom demands personal responsibility. I believe that we are responsible for ourselves, and it is not the job of the government to protect us from ourselves - only from each other. I'm willing to accept the risk that more bad things will happen in a free society. A lot of people, clearly, are not.

I agree with this.

Unfortunately govts do not see it your way. If you guys are complaining about this, come and visit me here in NZ or travel to Australia. Half the supplements you can buy OTC are very restricted here.