Pros and/or Cons of Intra-Workout Carbs

[Shin Sprints]

I got my True Nutrition mix of PeptoPro and HBCDs.

What type of intra-dosage is recommended? Would 17g PeptoPro with 38g HBCDs be okay?

I assume there is no need for any BC/EAAs with the PeptpPro.

 

[Swolbraham]

I got my True Nutrition mix of PeptoPro and HBCDs.

What type of intra-dosage is recommended? Would 17g PeptoPro with 38g HBCDs be okay?

I assume there is no need for any BC/EAAs with the PeptpPro.

depends on a myriad of things, training intensity, volume, weight, etc

that's a good start, and just adjust based on recovery

 

[Shin Sprints]

depends on a myriad of things, training intensity, volume, weight, etc

that's a good start, and just adjust based on recovery

Thanks. Intensity is quite high at the moment...daily workout is hitting 90 minutes nowadays. I have been on Follidrone for 6 weeks and I find that endurance is high.

Workout splits are...
Monday - Upper Body (Bench, Flyes, Military Press, Barbell Rows, Barbell Bicep Curls)
Tuesday - Lower Body (Squats)
Wednesday - Back (Various Rows and Pulls)
Thursday - Chest, Shoulders and Biceps (Bench, Flyes, Military Press, Plate Raises, Barbell Bicep Curls)
Friday - Lower Body and Triceps (Squats or Deadlifts, Weighted Dips)

I have never gone near volume like this until recently. No over training that I can notice.

 

[Swolbraham]

yeah then try what you pointed out, and if you notice you're not recovering as well just increase a bit! i'm doing 15g EAA, 10g PeptoPro, and 55g HBCD right now

 

[FireRescue]

depends on a myriad of things, training intensity, volume, weight, etc

that's a good start, and just adjust based on recovery

I agree. I would also start there and adjust up from there as needed. I think you might find that you need a bit more on a higher intensity days.

Make sure to mix it with and/or consume plenty of water with it as well.

 

[Swolbraham]

yeah i'm doing 30g HBCD / 5g PP / 1 scoop Amino IV in 28 oz shaker bottle, then bring the second half in a little tub and refill after finishing the first half. been going grrreat

 

[JRob23]

I prefer an intra workout mix of a few different things. I notice a big difference in muscle fullness, endurance and post recovery.

I like the upgraded second option in your op.

 

[Shin Sprints]

For the last few weeks I have been doing 30g Karbolyn, 1 scoop of AminoIV and 2 scoops of True Nutrition EAA.

Today was first time using PeptoPro mixed with HBCD. I probably slightly under dosed today so tomorrow onwards I will take 2 scoops along with 1 scoop Amino IV and see how I go.

I definitely think there is something to be said for intra carbs and aminos. Previously I trained fasted but my volume and intensity is much higher now so anything to help recover will be of benefit.

 

[Swolbraham]

nice bro, once you go carbs intra, wyou'll never go back!

 

[breezy11]

I got my peri-workout nutrition ideas from Breezy and it has helped tremendously. In fact, I would encourage that everybody view his log and follow along just to see how hardwork and diligence in diet, training and supplementation can have a strong impact on performance and outcomes.

Glad I could help man. Thanks for the kind words as well.

Make sure to mix it with and/or consume plenty of water with it as well.

Agreed. You want enough water to dilute the ingredients and allow for better digestion and assimilation of them. I'd recommend "sipping" the drink consistently throughout your workout as well (between sets).

 

[Nyrin]

You guys have me all excited about trying intra carbs now. I'm running ArA, though -- I wonder how far into my workout I need to be before carbing up isn't severely hindering ArA uptake. I know exercise clears glucose, but I still have to imagine that 30+ grams of sudden carbs would start some fat shuttling.

 

[Grayson]

You guys have me all excited about trying intra carbs now. I'm running ArA, though -- I wonder how far into my workout I need to be before carbing up isn't severely hindering ArA uptake. I know exercise clears glucose, but I still have to imagine that 30+ grams of sudden carbs would start some fat shuttling.

YMMV but any release of insulin might shuttle ara to adipose tisssue.

 

[kissdadookie]

yeah then try what you pointed out, and if you notice you're not recovering as well just increase a bit! i'm doing 15g EAA, 10g PeptoPro, and 55g HBCD right now

Dat dere is a good mix IMO.

You guys have me all excited about trying intra carbs now. I'm running ArA, though -- I wonder how far into my workout I need to be before carbing up isn't severely hindering ArA uptake. I know exercise clears glucose, but I still have to imagine that 30+ grams of sudden carbs would start some fat shuttling.

Don't think it really matters that much TBH. ArA I think has more affinity for muscle cells to begin with so kind of unlikely it will get much of it going into fat cells. Then there’s the fact that you are taking it preworkout so the workout to follow is going to make things preferentially/more likely get taken up by muscle cells.

IIRC, it's been demonstrated that the calories consumed during the peri-workout period are a lot less likely to get stored as fat.

 

[FireRescue]

Interestingly enough I was toying with the idea of mixing EAAs with Peptopro, but for now I am doing straight PP. The cost savings is about $.03 per gram of protein/EAA (so a $.30 saving if I replace 10g of protein from PP with 10g of EAAs) so not enough for me to keep an extra bag of something in the closet.

However, if there is a solid reason for me to replace some PP with EAAs I would be willing to jump on board with it

 

[mr.cooper69]

Dat dere is a good mix IMO.



Don't think it really matters that much TBH. ArA I think has more affinity for muscle cells to begin with so kind of unlikely it will get much of it going into fat cells. Then there’s the fact that you are taking it preworkout so the workout to follow is going to make things preferentially/more likely get taken up by muscle cells.

IIRC, it's been demonstrated that the calories consumed during the peri-workout period are a lot less likely to get stored as fat.

You're very confused about ArA.

#1 - The affinity of ArA for muscle vs fat depends on relative LPL activity and insulin levels
#2 - ArA isn't stored, it's deposited in the phospholipid membrane, so this point is moot.
#3- Preworkout is best because exercise suppresses insulin. However, exercise can't outdo a large carbload taken at that precise moment

 

[Nyrin]

You're very confused about ArA.

#1 - The affinity of ArA for muscle vs fat depends on relative LPL activity and insulin levels
#2 - ArA isn't stored, it's deposited in the phospholipid membrane, so this point is moot.
#3- Preworkout is best because exercise suppresses insulin. However, exercise can't outdo a large carbload taken at that precise moment

Thanks, Coop. Would you generally say that intra carb supplementation and ArA aren't a very optimal mix? That's been my impression. Guess I'll need to stick to something like MCTs if I want to play with dietary energy around workout time.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Thanks, Coop. Would you generally say that intra carb supplementation and ArA aren't a very optimal mix? That's been my impression. Guess I'll need to stick to something like MCTs if I want to play with dietary energy around workout time.

I think 30g of carbs would be fine if taken late in the workout and slowly, which is how it should be done anyway. But I question the utility of intraworkout carbs overall

 

[Chefdeez]

I think 30g of carbs would be fine if taken late in the workout and slowly, which is how it should be done anyway. But I question the utility of intraworkout carbs overall

Personally, I just don't see a use for intraworkout carbs as long as pre/post workout nutrition is in check. Never noticed a difference when I experimented with intra carbs. Everyone's different.

 

[RecompMan]

YMMV but any release of insulin might shuttle ara to adipose tisssue.

Us with forskolin. Problem solved

 

[RecompMan]

Personally, I just don't see a use for intraworkout carbs as long as pre/post workout nutrition is in check. Never noticed a difference when I experimented with intra carbs. Everyone's different.

Got to pick the best source for you

Isomaltulose would be best intra carb with ara.

 

[kissdadookie]

You're very confused about ArA.

#1 - The affinity of ArA for muscle vs fat depends on relative LPL activity and insulin levels
#2 - ArA isn't stored, it's deposited in the phospholipid membrane, so this point is moot.
#3- Preworkout is best because exercise suppresses insulin. However, exercise can't outdo a large carbload taken at that precise moment

#1 - I've gone through some old posts and it was pointed out that ArA going into fat cells regardless of insulin levels is actually not very easy to do. This appears to be a subject that had been discussed pretty in depth. ArA does not significantly get stored in adipose tissue as triglycerides nor does it meaningfully get taken up to a great extent in fat cells it would appear (going by the information in the Maximizing ArA thread, possibly the Will L. Thoughts on ArA thread). So I don't see how this changes regardless of LPL activity or insulin levels. It would appear that it has much more of an affinity towards getting taken up by muscle cells.

#2 - I stated stored with it being implied that folks understood I meant as being stored within cell membranes. If you go back to the Maximizing ArA thread (or it may have been the Will L. Thoughts on ArA thread, one of them), you were also using "storage" in a similar fashion.

#3 - I did point out that preworkout overcomes insulin. However, it's also been demonstrated that even with an increase in insulin, nutrients being shuttled to muscles appears to get preferential treatment when exercising, thus largely calories consumed peri-workout does not appear to increase fat storage as much when calories are a match but timing is different. Thus this would again suggest that ArA should preferentially get taken up into muscle cells when taken around workout time. As for suppressing insulin, one of the major points of taking intraworkout carbs is to actually continue the insulin spike so that you can drive more nutrients into working muscles during the workout. So I don't see how a large carb load periworkout is going to increase fat storage. Things do not appear to work that way. As for the calories taken in during peri workout appearing to not get stored as fat, that was something that Dr. Wilson mentioned a couple of times on various podcasts and interviews IIRC.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Brevity dude, brevity...

 

[Jiigzz]

Brevity dude, brevity...

I'll shorten it; you're wrong.

 

[mr.cooper69]

#1 - I've gone through some old posts and it was pointed out that ArA going into fat cells regardless of insulin levels is actually not very easy to do. This appears to be a subject that had been discussed pretty in depth. ArA does not significantly get stored in adipose tissue as triglycerides nor does it meaningfully get taken up to a great extent in fat cells it would appear (going by the information in the Maximizing ArA thread, possibly the Will L. Thoughts on ArA thread). So I don't see how this changes regardless of LPL activity or insulin levels. It would appear that it has much more of an affinity towards getting taken up by muscle cells.

#2 - I stated stored with it being implied that folks understood I meant as being stored within cell membranes. If you go back to the Maximizing ArA thread (or it may have been the Will L. Thoughts on ArA thread, one of them), you were also using "storage" in a similar fashion.

#3 - I did point out that preworkout overcomes insulin. However, it's also been demonstrated that even with an increase in insulin, nutrients being shuttled to muscles appears to get preferential treatment when exercising, thus largely calories consumed peri-workout does not appear to increase fat storage as much when calories are a match but timing is different. Thus this would again suggest that ArA should preferentially get taken up into muscle cells when taken around workout time. As for suppressing insulin, one of the major points of taking intraworkout carbs is to actually continue the insulin spike so that you can drive more nutrients into working muscles during the workout. So I don't see how a large carb load periworkout is going to increase fat storage. Things do not appear to work that way. As for the calories taken in during peri workout appearing to not get stored as fat, that was something that Dr. Wilson mentioned a couple of times on various podcasts and interviews IIRC.

#1 - Whoever said this, like llewelyn who was against the preworkout dosing protocol initially, is absolutely wrong. The ENTIRE ArA thread that you continually reference is based on the concept of fluctuating levels of LPL activity. It is in the very first post of the thread as detailed by neuron.

#2 - You just said "stored as fat." I did not say that ArA is stored as fat, aka a triglyceride. Very, very big difference.

#3- Man, I can't even get into this point because it's really far off. Read up on the physiology of endocrinology during exercise

Please respond with 1-2 sentences per point for future discussion or it won't be read

 

[mase1]

So carbs taken with peptopro should be sipped during the workout, I have always drank it down before I get out of my car at the gym? Will I notice a difference?

 

[kissdadookie]

#1 - Whoever said this, like llewelyn who was against the preworkout dosing protocol initially, is absolutely wrong. The ENTIRE ArA thread that you continually reference is based on the concept of fluctuating levels of LPL activity. It is in the very first post of the thread as detailed by neuron.

#2 - You just said "stored as fat." I did not say that ArA is stored as fat, aka a triglyceride. Very, very big difference.

#3- Man, I can't even get into this point because it's really far off. Read up on the physiology of endocrinology during exercise

Please respond with 1-2 sentences per point for future discussion or it won't be read

#1 - I actually looked it over, it was discussed in the Will L. Thoughts on ArA thread. It was also quoted from the Lipid 1997 he referenced along with Dr. P. The reference stated that there was no change in fat cell composition from the ingestion of high bolus doses of ArA.

#2 - Your post in the Will L. Thoughts on ArA (which just for reference, came much later after Neuron's Maximize ArA thread, so the Will L. thread proceeds it) actually made it sound like you were implying fat storage, as one can tell with the back and forth you had with Big Cat and Dr. P also concurred

#3 - Again, Dr. Wilson has stated on various occasions that the calories you consume peri-workout did not appear to easily or at all, store as body fat. There's also a relatively recent study where they were using VERY high doses of carbs periworkout and it had no negative impact on lipolysis. This would again suggest that there's a difference here even when you jack up the insulin. Muscles seem to get preferential treatment for nutrients absorption along with the carbs ingested being used as energy but​ having no impact on fat store and/or lipolysis.

So carbs taken with peptopro should be sipped during the workout, I have always drank it down before I get out of my car at the gym? Will I notice a difference?

I take a dose preworkout and then have a dose intraworkout. Accounting for total daily caloric intake, let's just say my performance notably improves (granted I have long workouts, they average around 2 hours and I time rest to about a minute between sets and exercises) and have been able to keep relatively lean-ish even at a good surplus (peri-workout I basically have consumed 65 grams of protein, 114 grams of carbs, 9 grams of fat, roughly 827 calories).

 

[kissdadookie]

Something I dug up for you mase1:

“ingestion of carbohydrate during resistance exercise may be [more potent in] inhibiting the catabolic hormone (cortisol), increasing the anabolic hormone (insulin) and creating a hormonal milieu for anabolism [than] whey protein." (Kazemzadeh. 2013)

Found it from here: http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2013/02/science-roundup-seconds-latest-data-on.html

 

[mr.cooper69]

#1 - I actually looked it over, it was discussed in the Will L. Thoughts on ArA thread. It was also quoted from the Lipid 1997 he referenced along with Dr. P. The reference stated that there was no change in fat cell composition from the ingestion of high bolus doses of ArA.

#2 - Your post in the Will L. Thoughts on ArA (which just for reference, came much later after Neuron's Maximize ArA thread, so the Will L. thread proceeds it) actually made it sound like you were implying fat storage, as one can tell with the back and forth you had with Big Cat and Dr. P also concurred

#3 - Again, Dr. Wilson has stated on various occasions that the calories you consume peri-workout did not appear to easily or at all, store as body fat. There's also a relatively recent study where they were using VERY high doses of carbs periworkout and it had no negative impact on lipolysis. This would again suggest that there's a difference here even when you jack up the insulin. Muscles seem to get preferential treatment for nutrients absorption along with the carbs ingested being used as energy but​ having no impact on fat store and/or lipolysis.

#1- I'm sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about on this one. You are welcome to link the paper, but the fate of fatty acids stored in chylomicrons is well understood to the point that it is common knowledge to anyone with even the most meager science background. LPL non-selectively hydrolyzes fatty acids in chylos, whether it be ArA or something else. Thus, you are likely either misinterpreting a conclusion or are misquoting a source.

#2 - Don't be dense. If I just said in this thread what happens to ArA, do you really think I went into another thread and said the opposite? i'm not going to argue semantics here. Point 1 at least has some content, but this point is degenerating.

#3- And the reason I am assuming you are misinterpreting data in point #1 is because of this. Kindly look up the difference between plasma lipids vs actual tissue adipose stores. Again, insulin acts non-selectively in inhibiting HSL, and again, this is common knowledge.

 

[kissdadookie]

#1- I'm sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about on this one. You are welcome to link the paper, but the fate of fatty acids stored in chylomicrons is well understood to the point that it is common knowledge to anyone with even the most meager science background. LPL non-selectively hydrolyzes fatty acids in chylos, whether it be ArA or something else. Thus, you are likely either misinterpreting a conclusion or are misquoting a source.

#2 - Don't be dense. If I just said in this thread what happens to ArA, do you really think I went into another thread and said the opposite? i'm not going to argue semantics here. Point 1 at least has some content, but this point is degenerating.

#3- And the reason I am assuming you are misinterpreting data in point #1 is because of this. Kindly look up the difference between plasma lipids vs actual tissue adipose stores. Again, insulin acts non-selectively in inhibiting HSL, and again, this is common knowledge.

Here's the thread: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&********web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=154364001&ei=YzYYVIXABtPFggSTnIJo&usg=AFQjCNEpqJ6IZlBK9cbrXIhrv6NHzM-smQ&bvm=bv.75097201,d.eXY

I'm not being dense at all, what is discussed in that thread speaks for itself. There's not much room in the posts on that thread for misinterpretation. That thread is also much newer than Neuron's original maximizing ArA thread so it's not as if the discussion predates Neuron's thread thus not having taken it into account.

Dr_P even chimed in with the following:

1.) Not that it really matters, but for the record, ArA is indeed among plasma free fatty acids (among others)
2.) it makes for not more than 2-3% of fatty acids in plasma triglycerides but between ~10-20% of blood cell membrane phospholipid fatty acids.
3.) its storage in adipose tissue triglycerides is negligable and that doesn't change even with high ArA supplementation
4) there is a change in plasma fatty acid composition (membrane phospholipids etc) but NOT of adipose tissue fatty acid composition due to high ArA supplementation.

Source: Lipids. 1997 Apr;32(4):427-33

So going by that, with a bolus dose of ArA, it's negligible the amount that will not end up hitting the target tissue (muscle cell membrane), plus it doesn't really alter adipose tissue fatty acid composition anyway.

Not arguing semantics, you were nitpicking at my use of wording, I just found it a bit hypocritical especially when what I stated was implied even if I didn't specifically state it as such, which granted is totally my fault for not wording things more specifically.

Lastly, let's talk about insulin. First thing, it would appear that ArA clears the bloodstream very quickly. Secondly, why suggest no carbs pre or intra due to the insulin when it's a known fact that taking aminos spikes insulin far more than carbs will. Third, let's say one wants to prevent the extended upregulation of insulin from the carbs, why would this even matter when ArA clears the blood so quickly in the first place? Fourth, again, why is there no warning against taking your aminos whilst there's this warning not to ingest the carbs? It's even been shown on a suppversity article that suggests one can actually become hypoglycemic when taking aminos because your insulin spikes and then drops quickly, thus taking in carbs will normalize that and give you a more sustained level blood sugar levels thus preventing a crash.

This simply doesn't make much sense when one looks at things together as a whole vs. isolating what happens to XYZ seen in isolation lab studies. In practice it doesn't appear to adversely affect ArA efficacy. Everything else is kind of just a bunch of minutiae that appears ok on paper but I'm REALLY not seeing it actually apply in practice.

It's really really really silly because on one hand, you have people going "oh, XYZ is only good for recovery, who cares" when in reality that could be used for acute benefits just like proper peri-workout nutrition (yet many still poo poo this just because it's not necessarily any more anabolic than adequate protein intake, it does have other benefits such as sustaining performance, plus the fact that it creates and maintains a bigger pump far more effectively than taking pump products, does that not suggest that at minimum, a whole lot of blood is getting pushed into them along with whatever nutrients they contain as well? what more acute effect does one need to be able to state if something is doing something or not?) then on the other hand there's the whole "stack ArA with XYZ for best results" when that hasn't done anything noticeable but sure sounds sound on paper.

 

[mr.cooper69]

Ok man, I tried. I may read your post at some point, but it won't be in the near future. Really something to try to work at. You can say more with less

 

[kissdadookie]

Ok man, I tried. I may read your post at some point, but it won't be in the near future. Really something to try to work at. You can say more with less

Fair enough

 

[Grayson]

@EBF mentioned isomaltulose, but what about dextrose or waxy maize in conjunction with ArA?

 

[kevinhy]

@EBF mentioned isomaltulose, but what about dextrose or waxy maize in conjunction with ArA?

I doubt either makes any difference at all in the GRAND SCHEME. I mean think about how small of a difference dosing carbs with ArA would make, if any. People around here get so caught up in this minutia its like theyre having a discussion on quantum mechanics instead of building muscle.

 

[breezy11]

Too much paralysis by analysis.

 

[kissdadookie]

I doubt either makes any difference at all in the GRAND SCHEME. I mean think about how small of a difference dosing carbs with ArA would make, if any. People around here get so caught up in this minutia its like theyre having a discussion on quantum mechanics instead of building muscle.

IMO, the benefit of using isomaltulose or something similar is the better sustained glucose levels, thus preventing a carbs crash in the middle of the workout (on top of it being a better handled in the gut carb source).

 

[Jiigzz]

Here's the thread: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&********web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.bodybuilding.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D154364001&ei=YzYYVIXABtPFggSTnIJo&usg=AFQjCNEpqJ6IZlBK9cbrXIhrv6NHzM-smQ&bvm=bv.75097201,d.eXY

I'm not being dense at all, what is discussed in that thread speaks for itself. There's not much room in the posts on that thread for misinterpretation. That thread is also much newer than Neuron's original maximizing ArA thread so it's not as if the discussion predates Neuron's thread thus not having taken it into account.

Dr_P even chimed in with the following:

1.) Not that it really matters, but for the record, ArA is indeed among plasma free fatty acids (among others)
2.) it makes for not more than 2-3% of fatty acids in plasma triglycerides but between ~10-20% of blood cell membrane phospholipid fatty acids.
3.) its storage in adipose tissue triglycerides is negligable and that doesn't change even with high ArA supplementation
4) there is a change in plasma fatty acid composition (membrane phospholipids etc) but NOT of adipose tissue fatty acid composition due to high ArA supplementation.

Source: Lipids. 1997 Apr;32(4):427-33

So going by that, with a bolus dose of ArA, it's negligible the amount that will not end up hitting the target tissue (muscle cell membrane), plus it doesn't really alter adipose tissue fatty acid composition anyway.

Not arguing semantics, you were nitpicking at my use of wording, I just found it a bit hypocritical especially when what I stated was implied even if I didn't specifically state it as such, which granted is totally my fault for not wording things more specifically.

Lastly, let's talk about insulin. First thing, it would appear that ArA clears the bloodstream very quickly. Secondly, why suggest no carbs pre or intra due to the insulin when it's a known fact that taking aminos spikes insulin far more than carbs will. Third, let's say one wants to prevent the extended upregulation of insulin from the carbs, why would this even matter when ArA clears the blood so quickly in the first place? Fourth, again, why is there no warning against taking your aminos whilst there's this warning not to ingest the carbs? It's even been shown on a suppversity article that suggests one can actually become hypoglycemic when taking aminos because your insulin spikes and then drops quickly, thus taking in carbs will normalize that and give you a more sustained level blood sugar levels thus preventing a crash.

This simply doesn't make much sense when one looks at things together as a whole vs. isolating what happens to XYZ seen in isolation lab studies. In practice it doesn't appear to adversely affect ArA efficacy. Everything else is kind of just a bunch of minutiae that appears ok on paper but I'm REALLY not seeing it actually apply in practice.

It's really really really silly because on one hand, you have people going "oh, XYZ is only good for recovery, who cares" when in reality that could be used for acute benefits just like proper peri-workout nutrition (yet many still poo poo this just because it's not necessarily any more anabolic than adequate protein intake, it does have other benefits such as sustaining performance, plus the fact that it creates and maintains a bigger pump far more effectively than taking pump products, does that not suggest that at minimum, a whole lot of blood is getting pushed into them along with whatever nutrients they contain as well? what more acute effect does one need to be able to state if something is doing something or not?) then on the other hand there's the whole "stack ArA with XYZ for best results" when that hasn't done anything noticeable but sure sounds sound on paper.

Look up the insulin response of aminos vs. Carbs and the type of response it is. Seems interesting

In order for something to be stored as fat it must become a triglyceride; I dont think the argument here is that Ara not taken peri workout will become this

Peri workout nutrition is more than just AMPK and mTOR balance. Recovery is huge. The only people who poo poo this are people who take things like IIFYM to the extreme and likely have NO idea what IIFYM actually is.

 

[kissdadookie]

Look up the insulin response of aminos vs. Carbs and the type of response it is. Seems interesting

In order for something to be stored as fat it must become a triglyceride; I dont think the argument here is that Ara not taken peri workout will become this

Peri workout nutrition is more than just AMPK and mTOR balance. Recovery is huge. The only people who poo poo this are people who take things like IIFYM to the extreme and likely have NO idea what IIFYM actually is.

IIRC, I think EAAs mainly combined with carbs basically gave the highest insulin response along with the carbs helping to sustain it?

 

[Jiigzz]

I doubt either makes any difference at all in the GRAND SCHEME. I mean think about how small of a difference dosing carbs with ArA would make, if any. People around here get so caught up in this minutia its like theyre having a discussion on quantum mechanics instead of building muscle.

While true, the issue is is that if the presence of carbs does shuttle the Ara away from skeletal muscle, then there would be almost no point in using it in the first place. So that wouldn't be a minor detail, but potentially make or break the results from that product. It would be like if I said to dose Amino IV with a high protein and leucine meal. What would be the point in doing that?

 

[kevinhy]

While true, the issue is is that if the presence of carbs does shuttle the Ara away from skeletal muscle, then there would be almost no point in using it in the first place. So that wouldn't be a minor detail, but potentially make or break the results from that product. It would be like if I said to dose Amino IV with a high protein and leucine meal. What would be the point in doing that?

Got ya, I suppose insulins action on FFAs could then hypothetically have a negative action on ArA. Interesting.

Was it dosed with meals in the studies?

 

[kissdadookie]

While true, the issue is is that if the presence of carbs does shuttle the Ara away from skeletal muscle, then there would be almost no point in using it in the first place. So that wouldn't be a minor detail, but potentially make or break the results from that product. It would be like if I said to dose Amino IV with a high protein and leucine meal. What would be the point in doing that?

Actually, taking freeform aminos on top of a high protein meal has demonstrated that it is acutely negative in that it causes protein wasting. So that goes beyond just wasting aminos/protein.

 

[kissdadookie]

Got ya, I suppose insulins action on FFAs could then hypothetically have a negative action on ArA. Interesting.

Was it dosed with meals in the studies?

Except it appears that the ArA leaves the bloodstream as FFAs in a matter of minutes if even that long?

 

[kevinhy]

Lol, I have no idea and I'm not sure we will ever get a definitive answer on this one. Perhaps dose it according to your own hypothesis in regards to its metabolism. I still dont think its going to have that much of a difference either way, but I like to keep things simple and to the point.

 

[kissdadookie]

Lol, I have no idea and I'm not sure we will ever get a definitive answer on this one. Perhaps dose it according to your own hypothesis in regards to its metabolism. I still dont think its going to have that much of a difference either way, but I like to keep things simple and to the point.

I don't think it really matters that much personally I find that the stuff works just fine with peri-workout nutrition and no carnitine or GMS They really would have to try different dosing protocols and then get muscle tissue biopsies + adipose tissue biopsies to see if it makes a difference I guess.

 

[Jiigzz]

Except it appears that the ArA leaves the bloodstream as FFAs in a matter of minutes if even that long?

We are free to speculate to what happens, however as it is a product that a company I rep for produces, it would be negligent of me to suggest a dosing protocol based on "it appears". For now i'll stick with neurons dosing guide just to be safe and ensure I am not steering people wrong.

Lol, I have no idea and I'm not sure we will ever get a definitive answer on this one. Perhaps dose it according to your own hypothesis in regards to its metabolism. I still dont think its going to have that much of a difference either way, but I like to keep things simple and to the point.

Agreed fully. So much time wasted on small details where it could be kept simple and you would still grow.

Actually, taking freeform aminos on top of a high protein meal has demonstrated that it is acutely negative in that it causes protein wasting. So that goes beyond just wasting aminos/protein.

Ah, well that would be silly then lol

 

[mr.cooper69]

Except it appears that the ArA leaves the bloodstream as FFAs in a matter of minutes if even that long?

Yes, and it also enters the bloodstream over the course of 30-90 minutes...

 

[NattyForLife]

So what is the consensus? Do you use intra carbs with ArA or not? Or does it matter?

 

[mr.cooper69]

So what is the consensus? Do you use intra carbs with ArA or not? Or does it matter?

At low doses, it won't matter. But to appreciably improve your workouts, you need higher doses of carbs. So I'm leaning towards no, no intraworkout carbs

 

[kissdadookie]

Yes, and it also enters the bloodstream over the course of 30-90 minutes...

Isn't the bulk of ArA typically taken up in red blood cell membranes along with muscle cell membranes?

Lipids. 1997 Apr;32(4):427-33 mentions that there's no change in adipose tissue fatty acid composition even with high ArA supplementation. That sounds like it also includes fat cell membranes.

 

[mr.cooper69]

That study:

A. Means very little without the full text. I don't know the methods used.
B. Says right in the abstract that plasma ArA levels are indeed quite altered...

 

[Distilled Water]

Food for thought.....

Kind of off subject but should be noted....

Isnt intra workout nutrition and IIFYM contradictory to each other?