Overtraining

[VersatileGG]

Good evening everyone. Has anyone here ever dealt with true overtraining? Or 'overtraining syndrome' as they call it? This is more geared towards natural bodybuilders who train intensely several times a week and EAT and SLEEP good.

Background: I've been natural bodybuilding for around 5-6 years (15-21) and have progressively gotten stronger. At age 21 I've hit some of the craziest numbers ever. (4 plate barbell row, 3 plate bench, 4-5plate squat, 5-6 plate rack pulls, 2 plate curls) at my peak.. these were all done for REPS!! I kept at around this high intensity with high volume for along time, progressing slowly even with bad sleep, however I hit a crutch and progressively began to get weaker. I know why am I training if I'm getting weaker, well simply because the gym is my happy place. I probably lost around 30% strength at this point...

Moreover, I've noticed something I've brushed off for a long time now. My sleep has been fragmented for probably a whole year or more now. I wake up 2-3 times a night and never seem to get in "deep sleep". I see in my face I look tired as their are bags. I even developed a form of anhedonia (not sure if this is related to overtraining). I don't feel adrenaline.. at all! It's very frustrating and depressing. Don't feel pleasure.

Moreover, my physique and progress has STALLED hard, which I attribute to the sleep as I eat a high quality organic diet.

I'm really trying to fix this problem so I guess my main questions here are:
Does this sound like overtraining syndrome?
What are symptoms you've had from it?
How can I quickly return to normal?!
Can I train or no training at all?

Also because I'm natural I thought mega dosing high quality natural T boosters would help (alternative to TRT) tongkat ali, black maca, cistanche, cordyceps but they haven't at all. Not sure if they are making matters worse...? Can I continue these as I recover?

Also I doubt it's sleep apnea as I don't snore or choke in my sleep. I just wake up suddenly.

 

[VersatileGG]

Accidentally posted twice. Moderator please delete this post, thank you

 

[Smont]

First, I don't think this only implies to naturals, I actually think it's much more likely a enhanced lifter will overtrain before a natural simply for the fact that on cycle you can lift heavier, longer and more intensely. Recovery ability doesn't improve as much as ppl think, I mean it does, but not a ton.

The numbers you listed for your lifts, your probably near maxed out in the strength department for a natural unless your just a gigantic human being, like 300lbs.

Could you be overtraining, possible. It's actually debatable if Overtraining is even a real thing if your diet and sleep is on point. At least muscular overtraining. CNS overtraining is more likely.

Rest is how you fix it. If you go by what they say overtraining syndrome is it supposedly requires 4-12 weeks of rest to fully resolve the problem. I don't believe that for a seccond.

CNS overtraining can be as little as 2-4 days of rest to recover from.

If I were you, I would deload for a week or 2 while being in a caloric surplus and make sure your well hydrated and try to get some extra sleep.

As far as keep taking test boosters, ya sure. They may improve your mood, energy and stuff like that, probably more so if your older. But how you said a alternative to trt, not even close. And going on trt isn't going to fix overtraining if your overtraining. There's literally millions of men on trt who are still fat and weak or they might work out and still not make progress. Trt is a fix for low testosterone, it's not a fix for poor gym performance unless low testosterone was the cause of your bad performance.

 

[Renew1]

Accidentally posted twice. Moderator please delete this post, thank you

Three times, actually.
In the future, just click that button once, no matter if you think it has posted or not. (Because it has).

 

[Jeremyk1]

I don’t actually know what to think about overtraining, there seems to be some debate. But generally, if you focus on recovery, you shouldn’t have much issue. Definitely try to improve sleep. Getting a good routine and regular schedule is the best thing, maybe try some supplements starting out to help get started. Get your diet sorted. High protein, plenty of carbs, and try to get nutritious foods for micronutrients. You could look into adaptogens, they can help with stress. Apex Alchemy Ursa Major is one you could check out too. I felt amazing on that stuff. I woke up earlier, but more because i felt like I was “done” sleeping. I was still more alert throughout the day and less fatigued. Most people talk about it for fat loss, but the strength and muscle fullness I got was spectacular. Phenomenal all around supplement.

 

[LeanEngineer]

Three times, actually.
In the future, just click that button once, no matter if you think it has posted or not. (Because it has).

General rule of thumb for me is I click once and open another browser to double check it was posted even if it doesn't look like it was from my current browser. That needs to be a pop message or something

 

[Jeremyk1]

General rule of thumb for me is I click once and open another browser to double check it was posted even if it doesn't look like it was from my current browser. That needs to be a pop message or something

For me, when it says it didn’t post, I just copy whatever I wrote, cancel and refresh. If it comes up, I’m good, if not, try again and just paste in the text.

 

[Renew1]

Agreed!

 

[VersatileGG]

First, I don't think this only implies to naturals, I actually think it's much more likely a enhanced lifter will overtrain before a natural simply for the fact that on cycle you can lift heavier, longer and more intensely. Recovery ability doesn't improve as much as ppl think, I mean it does, but not a ton.

The numbers you listed for your lifts, your probably near maxed out in the strength department for a natural unless your just a gigantic human being, like 300lbs.

Could you be overtraining, possible. It's actually debatable if Overtraining is even a real thing if your diet and sleep is on point. At least muscular overtraining. CNS overtraining is more likely.

Rest is how you fix it. If you go by what they say overtraining syndrome is it supposedly requires 4-12 weeks of rest to fully resolve the problem. I don't believe that for a seccond.

CNS overtraining can be as little as 2-4 days of rest to recover from.

If I were you, I would deload for a week or 2 while being in a caloric surplus and make sure your well hydrated and try to get some extra sleep.

As far as keep taking test boosters, ya sure. They may improve your mood, energy and stuff like that, probably more so if your older. But how you said a alternative to trt, not even close. And going on trt isn't going to fix overtraining if your overtraining. There's literally millions of men on trt who are still fat and weak or they might work out and still not make progress. Trt is a fix for low testosterone, it's not a fix for poor gym performance unless low testosterone was the cause of your bad performance.

So taking the test boosters continuously while deloading is better then to not?

 

[Smont]

So taking the test boosters continuously while deloading is better then to not?

How old are you, if your in your 20's or 30's and you don't have low testosterone and everything feels fine then no, a test booster probably isn't going to do much for you. If your 40+ and you have low energy then it might be more benificial. Just don't expect a test booster to work like trt or a steroid cycle and have reasonable expectations.

The question you're asking is not such a black and white question, there's so many variables that could change the answer to your question

 

[Smont]

If a 25 year old natural take a test booster, me being 37 and on testosterone was also taking a test booster, of 55-year-old man who's not on testosterone takes a test booster, we're all going to have very different results and how it affects us

 

[muscleman]

47 of age checking in, Athletic tennis player and more until last High School year then Saturday Night fever and dancing after drinking alcoholic bevereages with hopes of well brave or animal drive to go for mating.....
33 years of age starts strengthtraing and from 34 - 38 my most regular training and weight gaining and building a decent size of natural muscle.

But even only training 3 days a week. I didn´t train heavy mostle HST proggressive training and focus on taling perhaps one weel totally off strength training every couple of weeks or depending on personal reference.

Not at 47 heaving trained the most intense since age 38 I have managed to get even more intense mental foucs and getting even more sore and swole than previously but lifting lighter just having increased my focus with some help of Excelsior etc lol

But yes overtraining in my nerve system is much rougher on me now later in life and after having trianed very little, very few exceresizes I still got seriously sore and swole at the same time lol Well actually not very big but decent size and very happy about.

Rather than gaining muscles now I would to rather more energy over all physical energy mental energy and hopefuly transforn sone of that to spiritual energy

Tribuus extract powder that I bought in bulk still taste good and I feel good effects in libido and i feel it is a herb that is good for my health as well as libido- Ashwaganda as well has a spiritual feeling about, relaxing as well as tesosterone raising
None of these are gonna have anabolics effects for musclegrowth but tribulus enhances libido and when I was younger I would feel apprehensive for taking too much lol Ashwaganda I don´t know I took it for so many years just been taking breaks this year but starting back on it.

Ashwaganda is great overall healthy herb for various positive results as well as tribulus terrestris, I have almost grown to like the deep almost licorice reminding taste of terrestris,

Unsure if it really affects testosterone but maca ins energizing and has some minerals and alos heats libido.
I tale these kind of supplements not so regurarly, If I had more ses I most likely would some more of them lol

I tried Tongkat ali for the first time this year that in bulk from a place that sells bulk powder. Tasted kind of like licorice and definite would from this but never felt totally in sync with this herb. Gonna try it again and evakuate,,,

I am curious to try turkesterone also that in cheap bulk. Anybody tried that ? Did it work ou?
Otherwise I feel strong libido at my age and was happilly sursprised that physique got back to where it was 8 years ago and having to eat much less with slower metabolism in age.

But raing with high intensity using strong stims has buring my own CNS unfortuantely. But still looking to get back.

Anybody who has the tendency of rage train a bit like Hulk? Lol

 

[VersatileGG]

How old are you, if your in your 20's or 30's and you don't have low testosterone and everything feels fine then no, a test booster probably isn't going to do much for you. If your 40+ and you have low energy then it might be more benificial. Just don't expect a test booster to work like trt or a steroid cycle and have reasonable expectations.

The question you're asking is not such a black and white question, there's so many variables that could change the answer to your question

well I do have low energy and the test boosters have helped tremendously, they are expensive but well worth it as a natural lifter. The years of poor sleep have caused this fatigue and lethargy which im still trying to figure out what's causing the sleep problems. My theories are overdoing (caffeine/alpha gpc (hence the anhedonia, overdoing choline) or overtraining for some time. Cut out the alpha gpc going to see if my sleep improves. I believe sleep has been crushing my testosterone for awhile now. To answer your question (in my original post) I'm 21 years old and have been training 5-6 years natural. I have developed insane strength and volume accumulation over the years. My workouts are usually 2-3 hours long because my muscles can handle so much

 

[VersatileGG]

47 of age checking in, Athletic tennis player and more until last High School year then Saturday Night fever and dancing after drinking alcoholic bevereages with hopes of well brave or animal drive to go for mating.....
33 years of age starts strengthtraing and from 34 - 38 my most regular training and weight gaining and building a decent size of natural muscle.

But even only training 3 days a week. I didn´t train heavy mostle HST proggressive training and focus on taling perhaps one weel totally off strength training every couple of weeks or depending on personal reference.

Not at 47 heaving trained the most intense since age 38 I have managed to get even more intense mental foucs and getting even more sore and swole than previously but lifting lighter just having increased my focus with some help of Excelsior etc lol

But yes overtraining in my nerve system is much rougher on me now later in life and after having trianed very little, very few exceresizes I still got seriously sore and swole at the same time lol Well actually not very big but decent size and very happy about.

Rather than gaining muscles now I would to rather more energy over all physical energy mental energy and hopefuly transforn sone of that to spiritual energy

Tribuus extract powder that I bought in bulk still taste good and I feel good effects in libido and i feel it is a herb that is good for my health as well as libido- Ashwaganda as well has a spiritual feeling about, relaxing as well as tesosterone raising
None of these are gonna have anabolics effects for musclegrowth but tribulus enhances libido and when I was younger I would feel apprehensive for taking too much lol Ashwaganda I don´t know I took it for so many years just been taking breaks this year but starting back on it.

Ashwaganda is great overall healthy herb for various positive results as well as tribulus terrestris, I have almost grown to like the deep almost licorice reminding taste of terrestris,

Unsure if it really affects testosterone but maca ins energizing and has some minerals and alos heats libido.
I tale these kind of supplements not so regurarly, If I had more ses I most likely would some more of them lol

I tried Tongkat ali for the first time this year that in bulk from a place that sells bulk powder. Tasted kind of like licorice and definite would from this but never felt totally in sync with this herb. Gonna try it again and evakuate,,,

I am curious to try turkesterone also that in cheap bulk. Anybody tried that ? Did it work ou?
Otherwise I feel strong libido at my age and was happilly sursprised that physique got back to where it was 8 years ago and having to eat much less with slower metabolism in age.

But raing with high intensity using strong stims has buring my own CNS unfortuantely. But still looking to get back.

Anybody who has the tendency of rage train a bit like Hulk? Lol

Thanks for sharing. It's always good to hear naturals weight training journeys, since most decide to use gear after so many years. Those herbs you named I tried most of them, however ashwagandha KSM 66 in particular has some reputation for causing anhedonia and emotional numbness, apathy, which I'm still curious if it's causing that for me, have you experienced this from using this herb? Tongkat Ali is huge for me I've noticed my voice deepen significantly lol it's crazy, sources are super important for these herbs. My main problem is sleep interruptions I can't seem to sleep deep and soundly, have you experienced this from CNS fatigue or overtraining? Or is it just me? Once I nail in my sleep again, I hope to see drastic improvements, although im already maintaining a quite muscular physique!!

 

[VersatileGG]

I don’t actually know what to think about overtraining, there seems to be some debate. But generally, if you focus on recovery, you shouldn’t have much issue. Definitely try to improve sleep. Getting a good routine and regular schedule is the best thing, maybe try some supplements starting out to help get started. Get your diet sorted. High protein, plenty of carbs, and try to get nutritious foods for micronutrients. You could look into adaptogens, they can help with stress. Apex Alchemy Ursa Major is one you could check out too. I felt amazing on that stuff. I woke up earlier, but more because i felt like I was “done” sleeping. I was still more alert throughout the day and less fatigued. Most people talk about it for fat loss, but the strength and muscle fullness I got was spectacular. Phenomenal all around supplement.

The thing is I already dial everything in like a maniac. I, a nerd and enthusiast for gaining size literally have a cabinet of supplements to boost my performance and raise androgens and testosterone and I follow a high quality organic diet but still have this problem with sleep. I'm 21 years old so I believe following these healthy protocols is crucial for developing as an alpha top dog, haha. I can sleep for long hours, but I wake up often throughout the sleep and it's ruining my potential. Trying to dial this in and figure it out. Either from training or supplements...

 

[VersatileGG]

First, I don't think this only implies to naturals, I actually think it's much more likely a enhanced lifter will overtrain before a natural simply for the fact that on cycle you can lift heavier, longer and more intensely. Recovery ability doesn't improve as much as ppl think, I mean it does, but not a ton.

The numbers you listed for your lifts, your probably near maxed out in the strength department for a natural unless your just a gigantic human being, like 300lbs.

Could you be overtraining, possible. It's actually debatable if Overtraining is even a real thing if your diet and sleep is on point. At least muscular overtraining. CNS overtraining is more likely.

Rest is how you fix it. If you go by what they say overtraining syndrome is it supposedly requires 4-12 weeks of rest to fully resolve the problem. I don't believe that for a seccond.

CNS overtraining can be as little as 2-4 days of rest to recover from.

If I were you, I would deload for a week or 2 while being in a caloric surplus and make sure your well hydrated and try to get some extra sleep.

As far as keep taking test boosters, ya sure. They may improve your mood, energy and stuff like that, probably more so if your older. But how you said a alternative to trt, not even close. And going on trt isn't going to fix overtraining if your overtraining. There's literally millions of men on trt who are still fat and weak or they might work out and still not make progress. Trt is a fix for low testosterone, it's not a fix for poor gym performance unless low testosterone was the cause of your bad performance.

I said it applies to naturals more so because we don't have exogenous hormones supporting anabolism and optimal recovery from the workouts. We naturals rely on nutrition and supplements and sleep obviously (which I've been lacking). I don't believe I'm near maxed out but my sleep has been the thing that stopped my progress. I'm really dialed in with my sleep too (blackout curtains, no blue light past 10pm ETC) so something is really disrupting it and it's bothersome

 

[Foxx13]

When I was in my mid twenties I either over trained or over reached, I don’t know. Basically my lifts kept declining for a while until 80% was not doable. I actually could not sleep and was jittery at night, and tired all day. For me it was CNS fatigue. No amount of food or sleep was going to fix me in a day. I needed food sleep and deload time to tecover.

I would deload for 2-3 weeks, change up the routine, do some fun ****. Then have a ramp up plan.

Are you constantly lifting heavy and hard? That alone will take its toll over time.

Do you wave your program or undulate percentages?

Most people can’t stay at 90%+ for too long otherwise you stall out and then start to decline.

Overtraining or under-recovering…to me they are one in the same.

 

[Foxx13]

Let me also add that this is something I can still vividly remember almost 15 years later. That’s how much it affected me. I also had extreme brain fog and had a hard time doing things at work, focusing, and having conversations. I know it sounds extreme, but even today if I truly push to hard for say squats usually in high reps after not doing them for a while. I get a glimpse of that same feeling the next day, just very out of it and almost in a daze. Today it only lasts about a day or two if it happens at all back then it was for a much longer time period.

Today it tells me that I over did it and is a reminder that I need a transition period back to high reps. I can not just jump back to 4 sets of 12 squats after doing sets of 3-5 for 2-months.

 

[match]

47 of age checking in, Athletic tennis player and more until last High School year then Saturday Night fever and dancing after drinking alcoholic bevereages with hopes of well brave or animal drive to go for mating.....
33 years of age starts strengthtraing and from 34 - 38 my most regular training and weight gaining and building a decent size of natural muscle.

But even only training 3 days a week. I didn´t train heavy mostle HST proggressive training and focus on taling perhaps one weel totally off strength training every couple of weeks or depending on personal reference.

Not at 47 heaving trained the most intense since age 38 I have managed to get even more intense mental foucs and getting even more sore and swole than previously but lifting lighter just having increased my focus with some help of Excelsior etc lol

But yes overtraining in my nerve system is much rougher on me now later in life and after having trianed very little, very few exceresizes I still got seriously sore and swole at the same time lol Well actually not very big but decent size and very happy about.

Rather than gaining muscles now I would to rather more energy over all physical energy mental energy and hopefuly transforn sone of that to spiritual energy

Tribuus extract powder that I bought in bulk still taste good and I feel good effects in libido and i feel it is a herb that is good for my health as well as libido- Ashwaganda as well has a spiritual feeling about, relaxing as well as tesosterone raising
None of these are gonna have anabolics effects for musclegrowth but tribulus enhances libido and when I was younger I would feel apprehensive for taking too much lol Ashwaganda I don´t know I took it for so many years just been taking breaks this year but starting back on it.

Ashwaganda is great overall healthy herb for various positive results as well as tribulus terrestris, I have almost grown to like the deep almost licorice reminding taste of terrestris,

Unsure if it really affects testosterone but maca ins energizing and has some minerals and alos heats libido.
I tale these kind of supplements not so regurarly, If I had more ses I most likely would some more of them lol

I tried Tongkat ali for the first time this year that in bulk from a place that sells bulk powder. Tasted kind of like licorice and definite would from this but never felt totally in sync with this herb. Gonna try it again and evakuate,,,

I am curious to try turkesterone also that in cheap bulk. Anybody tried that ? Did it work ou?
Otherwise I feel strong libido at my age and was happilly sursprised that physique got back to where it was 8 years ago and having to eat much less with slower metabolism in age.

But raing with high intensity using strong stims has buring my own CNS unfortuantely. But still looking to get back.

Anybody who has the tendency of rage train a bit like Hulk? Lol

This is a really fun post to read if you imagine a drunken voice and really emphasize all the typos.

"I tale these kind of supplements not so regurarly, If I had more ses I most likely would some more of them lol"

"Anybody tried that ? Did it work ou?
Otherwise I feel strong libido at my age and was happilly sursprised that physique got back to where it was 8 years ago..."



I always love your posts muscleman!

 

[KvanH]

@VersatileGG have you ruled out sleep apnea? May want to do a Polysomnography (sleep study).

 

[Smont]

@VersatileGG have you ruled out sleep apnea? May want to do a Polysomnography (sleep study).

Pretty sure I got sleep apnea, average 4-5hours a night, get up frequently and bite .y tongue in my sleep on a regular basis. Sometimes even if I'm not off to take like a 5-minute nap, within that 5 minutes I'll bite my tongue.

 

[Smont]

Damn you talk to text....

 

[KvanH]

Pretty sure I got sleep apnea, average 4-5hours a night, get up frequently and bite .y tongue in my sleep on a regular basis. Sometimes even if I'm not off to take like a 5-minute nap, within that 5 minutes I'll bite my tongue.

I know for certain I have sleep apnea. I don't care to write all the signs and experiences, but last night was rough once again choking and gasping for air, while having nightmares. The dull headache is pretty much 24/7.

I had the sleep study done sleeping at home about a year ago or something, but it was difficult to sleep with all the meters around the body and didn't apparently show signs on that particular night, so didn't get a CPAP machine or anything else prescripted, although the Dr. said, that everything points to sleep apnea. But since the one night study did not, his "hands were tied". It has gotten increasingly worse and the plan is to have the study done again.

Sleep apnea of different magnitudes is actually very common and not just an obese people's problem. IIRC something like 40% of adult men suffer from some level of sleep apnea at least at some point in their life. Don't quote me on that %, but it's very common.

 

[Smont]

I know for certain I have sleep apnea. I don't care to write all the signs and experiences, but last night was rough once again choking and grasping for air, while having nightmares. The dull headache is pretty much 24/7.

I had the sleep study done sleeping at home about a year ago or something, but it was difficult to sleep with all the meters around the body and didn't apparently show signs on that particular night, so didn't get a CPAP machine or anything else prescripted, although the Dr. said, that everything points to sleep apnea. But since the one night study did not, his "hands were tied". It has gotten increasingly worse and the plan is to have the study done again.

Sleep apnea of different magnitudes is actually very common and not just an obese people's problem. IIRC something like 40% of adult men suffer from some level of sleep apnea at least at some point in their life. Don't quote me on that %, but it's very common.

Ya makes sense, need to get you a new Dr. I'm waiting on my new job insurance to kick in so I can go get my bloodwork, and aquire about a CPAP and telmasartan. If you find a good Dr they will help with these types of things usually, as far as my symptoms, I don't wake up gasping for air, that's one thing I've never had happen. But I go from being out cold to wide awake in the snap of a finger, wake up several times per night and I often wake up biting my tongue. Oddly enough my father has the same sleep patterns as me where we only sleep four to five hours a night and when we wake up we're wide awake instantly, and my mother bites her tongue in her sleep like I do even though she sleeps through the night most of the time, occasionally she bites her tongue in her sleep and it wakes her up. I just thought it was weird that I have a little bit of each of there bad sleep habits.

And I also noticed that even though I'm not a big dude,. When I'm dieting down and lean basically anything under 195 lb I don't have the tongue biting issue nearly as much. Once my body weight starts climbing into the 200s or it gets closer to 205-210 I bite my tongue much more frequently.

 

[KvanH]

Ya makes sense, need to get you a new Dr. I'm waiting on my new job insurance to kick in so I can go get my bloodwork, and aquire about a CPAP and telmasartan. If you find a good Dr they will help with these types of things usually, as far as my symptoms, I don't wake up gasping for air, that's one thing I've never had happen. But I go from being out cold to wide awake in the snap of a finger, wake up several times per night and I often wake up biting my tongue. Oddly enough my father has the same sleep patterns as me where we only sleep four to five hours a night and when we wake up we're wide awake instantly, and my mother bites her tongue in her sleep like I do even though she sleeps through the night most of the time, occasionally she bites her tongue in her sleep and it wakes her up. I just thought it was weird that I have a little bit of each of there bad sleep habits.

And I also noticed that even though I'm not a big dude,. When I'm dieting down and lean basically anything under 195 lb I don't have the tongue biting issue nearly as much. Once my body weight starts climbing into the 200s or it gets closer to 205-210 I bite my tongue much more frequently.

That's interesting about the tongue biting. But it could very well be an effect/symptom from sleep apnea, like you speculated.

Most of the times people don't realise they stop breathing during night and don't remember waking up for a brief moment, but it can happen dozens of times during night and you don't realise it. Or you wake up, but don't realise your brain woke you up, due to you not getting air to breathe for a moment. The gasping for air and being aware of the breaks in getting air happens with more of a serious condition. The point is you may suffer from breaks in breathing and waking up, even if you're not aware of it. So definitely worth to check it with your Dr. if you have any suspicion of sleep apnea, or to try the CPAP, to see if sleep improves. If you wake up with elevated heart rate or panicy/wired up feeling, that's one sign as well.

 

[RegisterJr]

Ya makes sense, need to get you a new Dr. I'm waiting on my new job insurance to kick in so I can go get my bloodwork, and aquire about a CPAP and telmasartan. If you find a good Dr they will help with these types of things usually, as far as my symptoms, I don't wake up gasping for air, that's one thing I've never had happen. But I go from being out cold to wide awake in the snap of a finger, wake up several times per night and I often wake up biting my tongue. Oddly enough my father has the same sleep patterns as me where we only sleep four to five hours a night and when we wake up we're wide awake instantly, and my mother bites her tongue in her sleep like I do even though she sleeps through the night most of the time, occasionally she bites her tongue in her sleep and it wakes her up. I just thought it was weird that I have a little bit of each of there bad sleep habits.

And I also noticed that even though I'm not a big dude,. When I'm dieting down and lean basically anything under 195 lb I don't have the tongue biting issue nearly as much. Once my body weight starts climbing into the 200s or it gets closer to 205-210 I bite my tongue much more frequently.

This was me, too. No gasping and rare snoring, but tongue biting and grinding, and when it’s really extreme, a swollen throat. The CPAP machine was the top life improvement change I can remember.

 

[muscleman]

This is a really fun post to read if you imagine a drunken voice and really emphasize all the typos.

"I tale these kind of supplements not so regurarly, If I had more ses I most likely would some more of them lol"

"Anybody tried that ? Did it work ou?
Otherwise I feel strong libido at my age and was happilly sursprised that physique got back to where it was 8 years ago..."



I always love your posts muscleman!

Lol well stims and overtraining etc has fried me and no sleep from stims in the worst on so many levels.
I must have written that last post way too many hours after tje peak of last Excelsior dose…….
Should have been sleeping!
And the serious typo errors I so is without reading glasses on my phone!

 

[muscleman]

well I do have low energy and the test boosters have helped tremendously, they are expensive but well worth it as a natural lifter. The years of poor sleep have caused this fatigue and lethargy which im still trying to figure out what's causing the sleep problems. My theories are overdoing (caffeine/alpha gpc (hence the anhedonia, overdoing choline) or overtraining for some time. Cut out the alpha gpc going to see if my sleep improves. I believe sleep has been crushing my testosterone for awhile now. To answer your question (in my original post) I'm 21 years old and have been training 5-6 years natural. I have developed insane strength and volume accumulation over the years. My workouts are usually 2-3 hours long because my muscles can handle so much

2 - 3 hrs do sound crazy to me.
As a teenagwr I could play tennis for 2 hrs but thats kind if a lot of breaks.,,
Just because your at your peak age you can manage.
That was the amazing for me now 9 years after my last peak I trained lower weights but maximum mind muscle connection and got insane pumps from basicallt pumping air…. Lol
And even seriously cutting down volume I still stay pumped.
And with age I even only needed eating half of the cloeies I uswd to stay big! Lol
But even training light and little volume those maximum contractions and intense mind Muscle connections combined with PWOs still fried my CN and it was much quicker to get exhausted many years later.
Unless you get proper rest and deload you are gonna be frying yourself slower or quicker., .
Amazing about your gains and hard work!
I am just a bit jelly about your age! If I only knew what I do now when I was 21!
Honestly though personal experience is the best teacher.
Try cutting down and I think yoy might just be surprised that you could get even better results with less training!

And never any anhedonia from ashwaganda. Been taking straight ashwaganda powder from ayurvedic medicine advice for mamy years. Relaxing adaptogenic and increased wood quickly and studies on increased test no way near chem test but anabolic herb and good herb to me

 

[muscleman]

Thanks for sharing. It's always good to hear naturals weight training journeys, since most decide to use gear after so many years. Those herbs you named I tried most of them, however ashwagandha KSM 66 in particular has some reputation for causing anhedonia and emotional numbness, apathy, which I'm still curious if it's causing that for me, have you experienced this from using this herb? Tongkat Ali is huge for me I've noticed my voice deepen significantly lol it's crazy, sources are super important for these herbs. My main problem is sleep interruptions I can't seem to sleep deep and soundly, have you experienced this from CNS fatigue or overtraining? Or is it just me? Once I nail in my sleep again, I hope to see drastic improvements, although im already maintaining a quite muscular physique!!

I took Tong Kali extract from pure bulk this summer. Not sure about quality but it was really cheap.
I did notice libido and I even got some nice pimples at 47! Lol Well in my teenages I had some acne but when testosterone lowered with age no pimples
But yeah test pimples from Tong Kat Ali lol
The straight pisdet tasted very strong though and because it was so cheap I often took like fourtimes tbe double dose or so… lol and actually felt a bit nauseous after that and got a little bit sick of flavour.
But hmm about 2 months since last workout now, did ten push ups and some yoga on the beach after ice cold swim last werk though …

 

[muscleman]

Scuse my spelling while I kiss the sky as Jimi Hendrix sings

 

[VersatileGG]

I must argue here, one thing I've noticed as a natural is overtraining has brought me the most size, that's why it backfires on me. how Am I supposed to progress when training less intense and volume I tried it and i shrink quick. The high intensity and volume has made me grow, period. It leaves me in a state of overtraining though, sometimes. Lower libido, drive and sleep problems. We'll see how tonight goes, I absolutely killed it today and feel great, but let's see how I feel the next day...

 

[VersatileGG]

I took Tong Kali extract from pure bulk this summer. Not sure about quality but it was really cheap.
I did notice libido and I even got some nice pimples at 47! Lol Well in my teenages I had some acne but when testosterone lowered with age no pimples
But yeah test pimples from Tong Kat Ali lol
The straight pisdet tasted very strong though and because it was so cheap I often took like fourtimes tbe double dose or so… lol and actually felt a bit nauseous after that and got a little bit sick of flavour.
But hmm about 2 months since last workout now, did ten push ups and some yoga on the beach after ice cold swim last werk though …

I've actually dropped tongkat ali I believe it lowers DHT, which is a suprise because I felt really androgenic from it

 

[VersatileGG]

For those saying it's sleep apnea. I can assure that it's not. I never wake up gasping for air or drowning with my own tongue. I just wake up, usually to piss at that point.

 

[VersatileGG]

I will do the sleep apnea test by lofta. Just to confirm. Fingers crossed

 

[VersatileGG]

I will do the sleep apnea test by lofta. Just to confirm. Fingers crossed

Has anybody used this test? Is it reliable?

 

[Jeremyk1]

I must argue here, one thing I've noticed as a natural is overtraining has brought me the most size, that's why it backfires on me. how Am I supposed to progress when training less intense and volume I tried it and i shrink quick. The high intensity and volume has made me grow, period. It leaves me in a state of overtraining though, sometimes. Lower libido, drive and sleep problems. We'll see how tonight goes, I absolutely killed it today and feel great, but let's see how I feel the next day...

You may need to spread out your workouts more. Instead of sticking to specific days of the week, take whatever routine you’re finding good results with and stretch it out across more days. Some people need more rest.

 

[KvanH]

I must argue here, one thing I've noticed as a natural is overtraining has brought me the most size, that's why it backfires on me. how Am I supposed to progress when training less intense and volume I tried it and i shrink quick. The high intensity and volume has made me grow, period. It leaves me in a state of overtraining though, sometimes. Lower libido, drive and sleep problems. We'll see how tonight goes, I absolutely killed it today and feel great, but let's see how I feel the next day...

Sounds more like strategic overreaching and you just need to fine tune it a little.

 

[KvanH]

For those saying it's sleep apnea. I can assure that it's not. I never wake up gasping for air or drowning with my own tongue. I just wake up, usually to piss at that point.

The only one you have to assure is you = ) But like I mentioned earlier, most of the times people don't realise the breaks in their breathing themselves. Waking up in the middle of the night to go to bathroom is actually listed as one of the common signs of sleep apnea. Could as well just be that you need to take a leak, of course.

I have never heard of that lofta testing.

 

[RegisterJr]

For those saying it's sleep apnea. I can assure that it's not. I never wake up gasping for air or drowning with my own tongue. I just wake up, usually to piss at that point.

Not all symptoms are noticeable by the sleeper, and often not by the bed partner. Mine was found using sleep testing with machines to monitor my heart rate and breathing. Only a couple of times did I have my own noticeable symptoms, and it took several missed diagnosis before going to a sleep doctor.

I’ve met a lot of people that are too good to sleep with a machine they’ve never tried. I’ve never met anyone who has slept with the machine and doesn’t swear by it, myself included.

I’d advise against eliminating things you are unsure of.

Never heard of that test.

 

[VersatileGG]

Hello everyone. I decided to take my first deload this week. I will be doing the sleep apnea one of these days too, but I'm pretty sure it's overtraining based on my symptoms. Low motivation, some anhedonia, low libido tiredness and my lifts and physique has gotten progressively worse. Don't ask me why I never deloaded, I didn't believe in this. It's absolutely disgusting

 

[VersatileGG]

I will keep you all posted! Hopefully I can find some motivation or some other hobby in the meantime. If it doesn't get better in a week, what do I do next?!
My biggest concern is nothing will get better from a week off

 

[VersatileGG]

My symptoms: Insomnia, Anhedonia (Depression), low libido, low motivation, bloated and softer physique?? Loss of strength, especially grip. Lower appetite and drive to do anything really. I don't know how this can affect my dopamine or mental so harshly it's insane. It's rarely talked about here and hope someone can shed some light.
Do you all know what could be causing the bloated softer physique?
Should I eat more calories on this deload?
Can I take preworkout supplements in this deload?
Thank you all

 

[KvanH]

It depends on the type of deload. Typical deload; you want to eat at maintenance level of calories and don't shy away from carbs. Work out wise you'd want to do about half the volume, that you've been doing and use the same weights, or slightly lighter.

But if you've created a high level of fatigue, which it does sound like, then one week most likely isn't sufficient. If you're actually 'over trained' and not just in a need of a typical deload, then recovery can take several weeks, even months in a drastic situation.

I understand it can be though to stay out of the gym, and seems like it definitely will be for you, so I would recommend 2 weeks of *total* break from working out and see how you feel and start gradually building back up from there.

Go on walks or hikes or stuff to that nature, but nothing too heavy in the 'recovery phase'.

 

[VersatileGG]

It depends on the type of deload. Typical deload; you want to eat at maintenance level of calories and don't shy away from carbs. Work out wise you'd want to do about half the volume, that you've been doing and use the same weights, or slightly lighter.

But if you've created a high level of fatigue, which it does sound like, then one week most likely isn't sufficient. If you're actually 'over trained' and not just in a need of a typical deload, then recovery can take several weeks, even months in a drastic situation.

I understand it can be though to stay out of the gym, and seems like it definitely will be for you, so I would recommend 2 weeks of *total* break from working out and see how you feel and start gradually building back up from there.

Go on walks or hikes or stuff to that nature, but nothing too heavy in the 'recovery phase'.

This is what scares me. Weeks... months?? How am I ever supposed to progress? Is the body completely destroyed or something? Should I get blood work?
Should I expect to lose any muscle during this deload?

 

[KvanH]

This is what scares me. Weeks... months?? How am I ever supposed to progress? Is the body completely destroyed or something? Should I get blood work?

Well blood work is never a bad idea, but I don't know which measurements would be the ones of most interest/value, other than hormonal levels and cortisol (which is a hormone by definiton as well).

But no, your body is not destroyed (most likely. We can't know for other possible underlying health issues, of course). But rest at ease - figuratively and literally, lol. There's some good evidence, that total breaks from working out can actually propel progress forward in the bigger picture. Our bodies always strive for homeostasis and can get used to the stimulus it receives, that's why we need to change up training in different ways, from time to time, and sometimes the best change in stimulus is to stop giving the stimulus induced when working out and when continuing to work out after the break, the body responds to stimulus better.

Anecdotally I've had a few cases, where an injury has forced me to not being able work out for some time, which has obviously been annoying and even sad at the moment. But it has turned out to be a blessing in disguise and when getting back to working out, I've made quick progress, due to muscle memory and a 'fresh' body, and rode the wave of momentum over and past my previous fitness level.

 

[KvanH]

And also, what really is a few weeks in a years long / a lifetime journey?

 

[RegisterJr]

Also keep in mind, a Deload isn’t complete bed rest. Maintenance calories with your protein intake maintained, and decreased training volume, isn’t going to result in a complete loss of strength and muscle. Your body will recuperate, and it’s possible you lose little-to-nothing at all.

 

[aaronuconn]

Also keep in mind, a Deload isn’t complete bed rest. Maintenance calories with your protein intake maintained, and decreased training volume, isn’t going to result in a complete loss of strength and muscle. Your body will recuperate, and it’s possible you lose little-to-nothing at all.

And, let’s also remember that you don’t need much volume to maintain

https://www.nutritiontactics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/1.-IG-2-1024x1024.png

Prevent muscle loss with minimal training?

How much training is needed to avoid loss of muscle mass gains? Gaining muscle mass is a slow process. However, muscle mass can be lost quickly during

www.nutritiontactics.com

 

[Renew1]

This is what scares me. Weeks... months?? How am I ever supposed to progress? Is the body completely destroyed or something? Should I get blood work?
Should I expect to lose any muscle during this deload?

Yes, if you haven't already gotten blood work, I highly recommend it.
I would definitely get hormones checked.... Test, Estro, .... I'd get cortisol checked. And there are other things I'm leaving out.
If you have the ability to get a Comprehensive test done, I highly recommend it.
I did that a number of years back, and although almost everything turned out to be in range (even very good), except Vitamin D was a little low......
That was great info to have. Because then I could formulate my next steps, based upon that information.

 

[LeanEngineer]

Yes, if you haven't already gotten blood work, I highly recommend it.
I would definitely get hormones checked.... Test, Estro, .... I'd get cortisol checked. And there are other things I'm leaving out.
If you have the ability to get a Comprehensive test done, I highly recommend it.
I did that a number of years back, and although almost everything turned out to be in range (even very good), except Vitamin D was a little low......
That was great info to have. Because then I could formulate my next steps, based upon that information.

Agreed. Once you have the data then you can make a quantitative decision!