Official Pink Magic Results Thread

[ProteinMurder]

Hmmm, Yes you are definitely not allowed to have any negative opinions on USP labs on AM. Problem is BB.com guys are just abnoxious morons, and its all just abuse and poor attempts at humour. Wish there was a happy median somewhere, honest reviews without abuse or teenage crap. I actually think PM is probably good. But there is not ONE bad thing said on here bout it, I mean come on......:ntome:

 

[votum]

FACT: The nutritional supplement industry is one of the most shady & corrupt industries in existence (i.e. the VAST majority of supplements do nothing & are overhyped).

FACT: Try as hard as you want, you won't find a single supplement on AM -- if they are a site sponsor and/or have active reps in the forums -- that has a preponderance of negative reviews.

AM is a great site for training/diet/PH/AAS info but if you want unbiased product reviews, I don't believe AM is the best place for that. My opinion is based purely on the relative absence of negative reviews on AM. The reality is that the majority of supplements should have negative reviews and very few supplements should have overwhelmingly positive reviews.

That's just the real world facts. There are a very few supplements out there that truly lead to better results. And even for those products that "work," the claims made by their manufacturers (huge, amazing, instant results) do not mesh with the reality (they will provide SLIGHTLY better results IF you are busting your ass in the gym and your diet is dialed in).

There's been many a time I've shaken my head at the glowing reviews I read on AM for products that I know don't do a damn thing.

Now I am by no means defending bb.com; I have spent comparatively very little time over there and haven't formed an opinion of the place.

I am very fishy about most supplements, and to be honest the amount that are covered on this site are a drop in the barrel. I feel much more comfortable purchasing something here that I can read tons of logs about vs purchasing something that looks good on paper on amazon or ebay ya know. I have yet to take a lot of stuff, mostly just a bunch of different pre-wos, and most of them are good. All were bought from reviews on here, the only one thing I caught was everyone said the flavor of ASGT was great, but it really isnt lol. I learned later they were comparing it to the first version, which was horrible I guess.

Meh, point I am trying to make is I think that <for the most part> the companies on here are legit. Some people push their stuff real hard, but there are a bunch of guys who are not affiliated with a company, Kleen, AG, TG, and several others who are respectable and trustworthy.

I am using the herbal natty stuff as a platform to jump into the PH/AAS dealio, because that stuff is definitely real.

 

[HereToStudy]

In what ways are people's opinions compromised?

I gave a recent review for Pink Magic and I liked it, along with recommended it. But how am I compromised? At the time I was not attached to any company, and now I am attached to a non-affiliated company.

Are there some people on here who want to kiss ass when they receive a free product? Yes, I am sure there are some. But in reality, you can usually tell who is presenting bull**** info, and who is presenting the real deal. As DW said, learn the style of various posters on here, and learn who you trust. Follow their logs.

I also am all for researching ingredients, I sure do it. But, I think we get alot of "pharmacology all stars" that appear to give their various opinions on how a study should be interpreted, even when they are not qualified in the least bit to interpret it themselves, let alone share their findings.

When it comes down to it, make your own choice. If someone saying the product works was enough for you, then get some Nitro Tech because Cutler is a big dude. If someone saying a product doesnt work is enough for the public, then NitroTech would be out of business. Unfortunately, it doesn't all work like that. Read some logs, research for yourself, then decide if you want to take the product. If you do, and only if you do, then share your feedback on it. This will give an informed opinion to others and maybe a little feedback for the company.

I said it before (I think even in this thread), but Kudos to USP, Pink is a pretty good product.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Great post!

And MulletSoldier's "burning hatred" response is exactly what I would expect.

If you want the truth on USP supplements, this is simply not the board for you. That doesn't mean that their supplements are garbage, or that every single opinion on here is compromised... but this is simply the wrong board for unbiased opinion on that particular subject.

"...to create entire threads dedicated to the topic of unnecessary supplementation, your burning hatred toward Pink Magic, and all other such topics of unrest."

Now, did it appear as if I singled out "burning hatred toward Pink Magic" in any way to emphasize it, and/or appear as if I am dramatizing the issue? Or rather, did it appear that I was dryly including the phrase to denote how each of those topics - Pink Magic, unnecessary supplementation, etc - simply detract from the topic at hand? Please.

The point of my post, ironically enough, was to elicit more of the "unbiased" commentary you claim is impossible at the expense of non-sequitors about the nature and character of logging in general. Or in more meager terms: this is a results thread, pure and simple. It was a request to keep it that way.

 

[diezel]

I'm on my second bottle of pink magic and am loving it. This month I'm starting to bulk. I'm about 2 weeks in and 5lbs up. All my major lifts are up as well. I've also noticed increased vascularity in my biceps and shoulders. This is hands down the strongest natural product I've ever used. I really look forward to going to the gym each day.

 

[tuberman]

edit:

 

[LAGear]

DW explained it when he said you find posters that time and again have been reliable in what they say, then you follow their logs, reviews, etc. The people I most respect have very good things to say about PM, and my experience has been the same.

Unfortunately, no matter how "reliable" someone may come across the problem remains. Are there any "reliable" posters/loggers/reviewers who write both negative and positive reviews? WHO ARE THEY???

The problem is that most supplements are crap. They just don't do anything, or they don't do anything of value. But review after review on AM gives glowing praises to every board sponsored product.

When I find a reviewer who thinks most supplements are garbage and gives the occasional positive review, then I'll consider that guy reliable. But as it stands there isn't even one regular logger/reviewer who posts the occasional negative review.

I'm not calling out anyone in particular here. I'm just stating that there is a disconnect on AM between reality and the reviews. Some of you have been around here too long to see it. But I challenge you to think critically for a moment and ask yourself how it's possible that there isn't a single board sponsored product that gets consistently negative reviews. Even a GREAT product will not work for some people but miraculously every time a product is reviewed, it works.

And I assure you that every board sponsor makes at least one crappy, worthless product that doesn't do a damn thing. But you'd never know it on AM.

Thats because the posters on the other forums dont take a product, but do review it based on their buds anti PM web studies..

That's just nuts. You are implying that if you use any product you'll automatically see that it works and you'll write a positive review. And by the same token the only way you can have a negative review of a supplement is if you write it without using the supplement.

One could much more credibly say the opposite is true. That if you use a supplement you're more likely to realize that it doesn't do a darn thing. But if you write a review without actually using the product you might believe the marketing propaganda and write a review that reflects the manufacturer's claims.

For the record, I do not believe that AM actually censors reviews (but they might). I just think the culture on AM is to blow hot air up the board sponsors' proverbial asses.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

I disagree with the lack of negative posts comment. I have researched many products here on AM and have made decision between two products based on reviews that for the most part have worked out in my favor.

Difference here is a negative review is more cordial and constructive...on bb.com people will out right be immature and condescending. Its actually harder for me to find an accurate review on bb.com then it is here. At bb.com certain supplements they love and rep continuously i have found to be highly ineffective while the ones promoted here have given me the gains i desired.

Yes you see an overwhelming postive opinion here on AM about pink magic b/c users are the ones commenting on it and those who took it like it. IF you look through bb.com the logs are very positive! BUt those who do not take it are forming radical opinions against it. I myself took pink magic and while it was not the best supplement ive ever taken, i cannot out right say it sucks b@lls and will kill you from poisoning. I did not achieve the gains other achieved but it obviously increased my recovery time and decreased the amount of body fat i had. Others recieved much better gains on the beta run but i cannot say it did nothing for me. Also my libido was very very high while running pink magic.


And i do believe there is an overwhelming number of people on bb.com that have an opinion on a product without having taken it.


Also i differ in opinion in that that i do not consider an individual reliable just cause he hates most supplements...i find him reliable based on WHAT supplements he likes. Also if he bashes a supplement...why is he bashing it? IS he comparing it to hormonals? Is he buying into the mob mentality? Is he an overall intense athlete that truly relies on diet and training?


DW is a perfect example...i tell you everything DW has told me that has helped me. His recommendations are always beneficial, and he is a very very experienced athlete. He s an individual you would not consider reliable b/c he throws out more positive reviews then negative ones...yet that man probably through experience and age knows what to take by now and will rarely take something that wont give him results.

 

[DreamWeaver]

I disagree with the lack of negative posts comment. I have researched many products here on AM and have made decision between two products based on reviews that for the most part have worked out in my favor.

Difference here is a negative review is more cordial and constructive...on bb.com people will out right be immature and condescending. Its actually harder for me to find an accurate review on bb.com then it is here. At bb.com certain supplements they love and rep continuously i have found to be highly ineffective while the ones promoted here have given me the gains i desired.

Yes you see an overwhelming postive opinion here on AM about pink magic b/c users are the ones commenting on it and those who took it like it. IF you look through bb.com the logs are very positive! BUt those who do not take it are forming radical opinions against it. I myself took pink magic and while it was not the best supplement ive ever taken, i cannot out right say it sucks b@lls and will kill you from poisoning. I did not achieve the gains other achieved but it obviously increased my recovery time and decreased the amount of body fat i had. Others recieved much better gains on the beta run but i cannot say it did nothing for me. Also my libido was very very high while running pink magic.


And i do believe there is an overwhelming number of people on bb.com that have an opinion on a product without having taken it.


Also i differ in opinion in that that i do not consider an individual reliable just cause he hates most supplements...i find him reliable based on WHAT supplements he likes. Also if he bashes a supplement...why is he bashing it? IS he comparing it to hormonals? Is he buying into the mob mentality? Is he an overall intense athlete that truly relies on diet and training?


DW is a perfect example...i tell you everything DW has told me that has helped me. His recommendations are always beneficial, and he is a very very experienced athlete. He s an individual you would not consider reliable b/c he throws out more positive reviews then negative ones...yet that man probably through experience and age knows what to take by now and will rarely take something that wont give him results.

First of all thank you... it's feels good to have the respect of your peers.. and you hit the nail right on the head. Most of my experiences have been positive because I have learned what to stay away from and only trust certain companies. Good companies keep coming out with good products. It's true most supps are crap, I payed my dues and now I'm reaping the benefits. The one thing I have learned and you can put this in the bank. "Do not trust people who have a tendancy to be negative", constructive is ok, negative is a tell tale sign. I believe LAGear is being contructive with his critisism so I'm not talking about him. Go over to bodybuilding.com and see what I'm talking about. There are a few hear that you will always see going out of their way to degrade a product, their word is not worth spit. It's funny these people don't know how transparent they are.

I do see what LAGear is talking about "If you can't say No what's your Yes worth". I do believe there is some of that going on here at AM, I also contend that we have created such a good environment that a lot of the products people are taking are actually working for them.

 

[ryan6f7]

Im heading into my 3rd week on a 6 week run of Pink Magic and i am deffinatley impressed. I am in a bulking phase right now and am very pleased with the product thus far. My muscles are deffinatley harder and fuller, my strength has also increased nicely and it gives a pretty good pump that seems to last for quite awhile. For example 2 weeks ago i could hit the 105 dbs for 8 on the flat bench, last night i got the 110's for 8 and the 115's for five wich is personal best for me. Ive gone up in weight from 325 to 330 after being stalled at 325 for awhile ( im 6'7"). Strength in all lifts is progressing nicely also ive noticed i can push out a few extra reps were previously i would fail, it's like something kicks in out of nowhere and gives you more steam at the end of the set. Is it worth 59$? Sure if you can afford it. Im looking forward to the third week when this stuff apparently really kicks in.

 

[ProteinMurder]

6 foot 7 and 330.....:bigeyes:

 

[Dizmal]

That poor toilet...

 

[ryan6f7]

poor poor toilet indeed lol

 

[AK32408]

Im heading into my 3rd week on a 6 week run of Pink Magic and i am deffinatley impressed. I am in a bulking phase right now and am very pleased with the product thus far. My muscles are deffinatley harder and fuller, my strength has also increased nicely and it gives a pretty good pump that seems to last for quite awhile. For example 2 weeks ago i could hit the 105 dbs for 8 on the flat bench, last night i got the 110's for 8 and the 115's for five wich is personal best for me. Ive gone up in weight from 325 to 330 after being stalled at 325 for awhile ( im 6'7"). Strength in all lifts is progressing nicely also ive noticed i can push out a few extra reps were previously i would fail, it's like something kicks in out of nowhere and gives you more steam at the end of the set. Is it worth 59$? Sure if you can afford it. Im looking forward to the third week when this stuff apparently really kicks in.

You're a monster !

 

[Whacked]

Natadrol verses Pink?
Thoughts?

 

[WilteredFire]

Natadrol verses Pink?
Thoughts?

Theres a seperate thread for this in the supplement section. Maybe you can find alot more useful info relating to your question in there bud

 

[tuberman]

I do see what LAGear is talking about "If you can't say No what's your Yes worth". I do believe there is some of that going on here at AM, I also contend that we have created such a good environment that a lot of the products people are taking are actually working for them.

DW,

AM is different from the other forums, and so are many of the companies here. And there's a unfairness to grouping all supplement companies together. There is the traditional companies that do ads in various magazines and use people like Jay or Dorian or some other mister verse contender to sell product. Those products are mediocre at best with most being almost worthless.

AM companies mostly use a different marketing stategy. I call it the Evangelistic marketing style, and I think that's good. Why is it good? Well the companies here depend on the typical customer to spread the word about their products. People like you DW. This stratagy only works if the product actually does have something good to great about it. Therefore many of the products (not all of course, there are misfires) on AM are much better than the traditional mag ad products.

This is why I hang out on AM and not BB.com, who is still heavily wired to the traditional companies. This is fact was so obvious to me that I had to think about it for a while to remember that AM was the first step in my selection process because of what they represent and the companies they keep. Companies such as UPS Labs, Primordial Performance, and at least a dozen others here are cutting edge IMHO.

 

[DreamWeaver]

DW,

AM is different from the other forums, and so are many of the companies here. And there's a unfairness to grouping all supplement companies together. There is the traditional companies that do ads in various magazines and use people like Jay or Dorian or some other mister verse contender to sell product. Those products are mediocre at best with most being almost worthless.

AM companies mostly use a different marketing stategy. I call it the Evangelistic marketing style, and I think that's good. Why is it good? Well the companies here depend on the typical customer to spread the word about their products. People like you DW. This stratagy only works if the product actually does have something good to great about it. Therefore many of the products (not all of course, there are misfires) on AM are much better than the traditional mag ad products.

This is why I hang out on AM and not BB.com, who is still heavily wired to the traditional companies. This is fact was so obvious to me that I had to think about it for a while to remember that AM was the first step in my selection process because of what they represent and the companies they keep. Companies such as UPS Labs, Primordial Performance, and at least a dozen others here are cutting edge IMHO.

Yah some good points here, companies like ours have to rely on the customer getting some results, for our sales. It's a much more honest approach. It's not perfect but it's much better.

 

[tuberman]

Yah some good points here, companies like ours have to rely on the customer getting some results, for our sales. It's a much more honest approach. It's not perfect but it's much better.

Yep DW, this is a comparison. There are a number of flaws in the "Evangelistic marketing system" too. But it's vastly better than the traditional ad system. I'm not going to spend a lot of time attacking what works often, when there's so many things that don't work at all.

But Evangelistic marketing is threatened with several breaking points that will limit companies using it. Size is one. When a company breaks out into larger venues how to keep their integrity?

 

[joeymutz]

If you want real unbiased reviews on products mindandmuscle.net Is probably the best place to go. I hear good things about OEP, not many people said it didn't work. Super cissuss got good reviews also. one of the guys over there was chosen to log pink magic and he said he had zero results and the guys over there know there **** and have been around for awhile. My stand is that usplabs does have some great products but the ones that are hyped the most don't seem to do what they claim. I have personal experience with this. I never tried pink magic and probably never will, I've tried pretty much everything else though and powerfull and super cisuss did work for me . If i want something natural to get me stronger and put on a few lbs I would go with DTHC or DTP both made by get diesel. If i were to buy cisuss I would choose usplabs version as it worked well for me.

I may try pink magic for the libido increase when i come off cycle. That won't be for a couple months though as i have a **** load of anavar on its way and plenty of Trasdermal test to last me till the end of my cycle.

 

[WilteredFire]

If you want real unbiased reviews on products mindandmuscle.net Is probably the best place to go. I hear good things about OEP, not many people said it didn't work. Super cissuss got good reviews also. one of the guys over there was chosen to log pink magic and he said he had zero results and the guys over there know there **** and have been around for awhile. My stand is that usplabs does have some great products but the ones that are hyped the most don't seem to do what they claim. I have personal experience with this. I never tried pink magic and probably never will, I've tried pretty much everything else though and powerfull and super cisuss did work for me . If i want something natural to get me stronger and put on a few lbs I would go with DTHC or DTP both made by get diesel. If i were to buy cisuss I would choose usplabs version as it worked well for me.

I may try pink magic for the libido increase when i come off cycle. That won't be for a couple months though as i have a **** load of anavar on its way and plenty of Trasdermal test to last me till the end of my cycle.

x 2 that MnM guys do really know their stuff. A very clever bunch indeed

 

[DreamWeaver]

If you want real unbiased reviews on products mindandmuscle.net Is probably the best place to go. I hear good things about OEP, not many people said it didn't work. Super cissuss got good reviews also. one of the guys over there was chosen to log pink magic and he said he had zero results and the guys over there know there **** and have been around for awhile. My stand is that usplabs does have some great products but the ones that are hyped the most don't seem to do what they claim. I have personal experience with this. I never tried pink magic and probably never will, I've tried pretty much everything else though and powerfull and super cisuss did work for me . If i want something natural to get me stronger and put on a few lbs I would go with DTHC or DTP both made by get diesel. If i were to buy cisuss I would choose usplabs version as it worked well for me.

I may try pink magic for the libido increase when i come off cycle. That won't be for a couple months though as i have a **** load of anavar on its way and plenty of Trasdermal test to last me till the end of my cycle.

Yah I know PM beta works, it was very obvious to me. I do believe that different people get different results from different products. I don't get a lot out of powerfull, some good sleep...

I get nothing from DTHC a little agression at first then nothing... so that's where we differ, no big deal that's why you always have to try something before you know how you will react.

 

[joeymutz]

yupe, i spent a lot of money over the past few yrs on all types of innovative stuff. Now i don't need to pin, i put a lotion on for 6 months out of the year, pop some orals through out the 6 months and then come off for 6 months. I've learned if you use AAS correctly and don't abuse it you can get great gains slowly but you keep them and your body gets used to carrying more weight on your frame over time. I've spent a lot less tis past year then every year before. I'm glad Eric and Seth are around because they know what there doing and always give great advice. check you pm box.

 

[Rike]

SHAA -Wing!

yupe, i spent a lot of money over the past few yrs on all types of innovative stuff. Now i don't need to pin, i put a lotion on for 6 months out of the year, pop some orals through out the 6 months and then come off for 6 months. I've learned if you use AAS correctly and don't abuse it you can get great gains slowly but you keep them and your body gets used to carrying more weight on your frame over time. I've spent a lot less tis past year then every year before. I'm glad Eric and Seth are around because they know what there doing and always give great advice. check you pm box.

All I read was blah blah blah - and I mean no offense. I could not take my eyes off your avatar.

 

[LAGear]

AM is different from the other forums, and so are many of the companies here. And there's a unfairness to grouping all supplement companies together. There is the traditional companies that do ads in various magazines and use people like Jay or Dorian or some other mister verse contender to sell product. Those products are mediocre at best with most being almost worthless.

USP Labs is no different. They are among the worst offenders and make claims as ridiculous as any "traditional" supplement company out there. They claim Powerfull can increase HGH by over 200% and their owner Jacob is a self-proclaimed AM forum troll. He's bragged about his trolling is good marketing because it gets people interested in the products. For that reason alone I'll never buy another USP product. Besides, the owner of a company (I am one myself) should have better things to do.

But USP labs isn't alone, every supplement company out there knowingly overstates the efficacy of their products. Every. Single. One.

AM companies mostly use a different marketing stategy. I call it the Evangelistic marketing style, and I think that's good. Why is it good? Well the companies here depend on the typical customer to spread the word about their products. People like you DW. This stratagy only works if the product actually does have something good to great about it. Therefore many of the products (not all of course, there are misfires) on AM are much better than the traditional mag ad products.

You just correlated product efficacy with marketing strategy.



In any case, the point I made was that the lack of negative reviews on AM should lead one to think very critically before believing the positive reviews. And when a specific reviewer NEVER concludes that a product is "not recommended" then you have to call that person's judgment into question.

There just simply aren't that many products that truly work and it doesn't matter what company's name is on the label. And no matter how well you understand your body & supplements, you're going to run into products that don't work for you.

People can argue with me or try to contort arguments to justify the "evangelical" culture here. But we all know what I'm saying is 100% true (the reps I've received seem to back that up). And I have no bones to pick with anyone or any company. In fact, I've got lots of help and great advice here on AM. But I have absolutely no faith in the product reviews or logs. And this isn't only because they're all positive but because I've taken the bait more times than I'd like to admit and bought board-sponsored supplements that didn't do a damn thing for me despite the glowing reviews. That was when I was still new to the site and didn't realize what was going on but I know first hand that some of the highly touted supplements do squat (or at least don't produce the advertised results).

 

[ProteinMurder]

USP Labs is no different. They are among the worst offenders and make claims as ridiculous as any "traditional" supplement company out there. They claim Powerfull can increase HGH by over 200% and their owner Jacob is a self-proclaimed AM forum troll. He's bragged about his trolling is good marketing because it gets people interested in the products. For that reason alone I'll never buy another USP product. Besides, the owner of a company (I am one myself) should have better things to do.

But USP labs isn't alone, every supplement company out there knowingly overstates the efficacy of their products. Every. Single. One.

You just correlated product efficacy with marketing strategy.



In any case, the point I made was that the lack of negative reviews on AM should lead one to think very critically before believing the positive reviews. And when a specific reviewer NEVER concludes that a product is "not recommended" then you have to call that person's judgment into question.

There just simply aren't that many products that truly work and it doesn't matter what company's name is on the label. And no matter how well you understand your body & supplements, you're going to run into products that don't work for you.

People can argue with me or try to contort arguments to justify the "evangelical" culture here. But we all know what I'm saying is 100% true (the reps I've received seem to back that up). And I have no bones to pick with anyone or any company. In fact, I've got lots of help and great advice here on AM. But I have absolutely no faith in the product reviews or logs. And this isn't only because they're all positive but because I've taken the bait more times than I'd like to admit and bought board-sponsored supplements that didn't do a damn thing for me despite the glowing reviews. That was when I was still new to the site and didn't realize what was going on but I know first hand that some of the highly touted supplements do squat (or at least don't produce the advertised results).

You make so many great points that cannot be argued. They will try, but you are EXACTLY right. straight on the button. Just alot wont back you cause they cant be bothered with alot of reps long winded, university sounding responses filled with words most on here need to google. You are dead right. everything you said. And all without being abusive. Kudos.

 

[DreamWeaver]

Like I said better but not perfect... I know how to get the info I need and I am happy with my purchases.

 

[joeymutz]

All I read was blah blah blah - and I mean no offense. I could not take my eyes off your avatar.

Yeah i wish that was my wife. i'd eat a mile of her **** just to see where it came out of.

 

[tuberman]

Like I said better but not perfect... I know how to get the info I need and I am happy with my purchases.

My selection processs works well for me also, disappointments have gotten rarer the last three years. Some of my disappointments are not because of the products not working, but because of unexpected sides. I'm referring to products here that effect growth in size and strength. Perhaps some should double check to see if you really have created an effective system for your selections. It's called doing your homework.

And if steriods/prohormones work for you, that is your selection, and I have no problem with that.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

SO in short LA, correct me if im wrong:

1) LA you feel AM is unreliable b/c people dont bash supplements

2) If a company hypes a product they are obviously part of the problem in todays supplement industry

3) There are few supplements that actually work and they are are to find being that people on various forums hype ineffective profucts


Is that more or less what you are trying to get across?

 

[The_Reverend]

You make so many great points that cannot be argued. They will try, but you are EXACTLY right. straight on the button. Just alot wont back you cause they cant be bothered with alot of reps long winded, university sounding responses filled with words most on here need to google. You are dead right. everything you said. And all without being abusive. Kudos.

I always say that as long as you ignore most of the reps on this board, you can get some pretty honest answers. Of course you also need to be cautious of people giving reviews on products they got for free from the company. How often do you see a review say the product sucks when it was obtained free of charge? Rarely, if ever.

 

[LAGear]

SO in short LA, correct me if im wrong:

1) LA you feel AM is unreliable b/c people dont bash supplements

2) If a company hypes a product they are obviously part of the problem in todays supplement industry

3) There are few supplements that actually work and they are are to find being that people on various forums hype ineffective profucts


Is that more or less what you are trying to get across?

1) No way. "Bashing" is not necessary. But trust me, there are plenty of board-sponsored products that don't do a damn thing. Fact. However, you won't read about that on AM. AM reviews are unreliable because they are ALWAYS positive regardless of how effective or ineffective the product is. You don't have to bash products to be reliable, just tell the truth.

2) Supplement companies have to hype their products because even the best supplements will produce very modest results and only for the people who have their diet & training dialed in. For everyone else even the best supplements won't help. I understand they have to overstate the results but wish they wouldn't do it so much.

My point is that the AM sponsors are not immune from over-hyping the hell out of their products and probably do it much more than "traditional" supplement companies.

Traditional supplement companies are restricted to getting their point across on a product label or a one-page ad. The supplement companies on AM post HUGE marketing manifestos with entire threads designed to hype a product. Some people are under the impression that board sponsors are more honest about the effectiveness of their products and that's just not the case.

For the most part I don't hold this against them except when a company like USP makes ABSURD claims like boosting HGH production over 200% after just one dose.

3) I agree with this. I think those of us who have been at this a while have a good grasp of what really works and what doesn't. But someone new to the game will have a hell of a time figuring it out and waste a lot of time & money in the process. A buddy of mine recently bought No-Xplode & Cellmass because of the reviews he read online. I wanted to punch him in the nose. Rookie move.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

1) No way. "Bashing" is not necessary. But trust me, there are plenty of board-sponsored products that don't do a damn thing. Fact. However, you won't read about that on AM. AM reviews are unreliable because they are ALWAYS positive regardless of how effective or ineffective the product is. You don't have to bash products to be reliable, just tell the truth.

2) Supplement companies have to hype their products because even the best supplements will produce very modest results and only for the people who have their diet & training dialed in. For everyone else even the best supplements won't help. I understand they have to overstate the results but wish they wouldn't do it so much.

My point is that the AM sponsors are not immune from over-hyping the hell out of their products and probably do it much more than "traditional" supplement companies.

Traditional supplement companies are restricted to getting their point across on a product label or a one-page ad. The supplement companies on AM post HUGE marketing manifestos with entire threads designed to hype a product. Some people are under the impression that board sponsors are more honest about the effectiveness of their products and that's just not the case.

For the most part I don't hold this against them except when a company like USP makes ABSURD claims like boosting HGH production over 200% after just one dose.

3) I agree with this. I think those of us who have been at this a while have a good grasp of what really works and what doesn't. But someone new to the game will have a hell of a time figuring it out and waste a lot of time & money in the process. A buddy of mine recently bought No-Xplode & Cellmass because of the reviews he read online. I wanted to punch him in the nose. Rookie move.

Dont for a second think im trying to criticize you, i really want to understand your point of view so that i can partake in this discussion.


Now being that u have explained yourself a bit better i would like to share that i do think there are A LOT of supplements that are quite effective. Now when put into relaltion to the number of supplements there are in the market, you point of view gains a its validity.

For example....

Creatine and its various forms, luecine, whey, bcaa's, eaa's, citrulline malate, various forms of ALA, kre-alkylin, resveratrol, divanil, fenugreek, coleus forskolin, caffeine, 1,3 dimeth, mucuna puriens, green tea extracts(more so for its antioxidant benefits), etc etc etc are all effective in their own right but not one of them will make you adonis overnight.

all of these are effective suppelements that helps put the icing on the cake, but you first must bake the cake and construct teh cake before the icing is even put on. Now.... are there a million different supplements with various combinations of these things? Yes and do all yeild similar results? No... so you have a valid point in stating that even though there are supplements that work they are often lost in a sea of ineffective overhyped supplements.

Also what do i consider effective? That is the kicker. I do not expect my supplementation to do much. I expect my diet, rest and my routine to do about 85-90%% of the work. Therefore if I take a supplement that really just adds just a little bit extra to my overall gains...then i consider it effective. Now mind you remember i am a natural athlete so i dont dabble into the more hardcore supplementation that really can add supraphysiological in a given amount of time. I simply use supplements that will maximize my natural potential.

But more importantly i also think there is an EPIDEMIC in how people today view supplements. I have spoken to more people who think that supplements are the key to success. I have seen how people put more of an emphasis on what they are taking rather then what routine they are doing or what they are putting into their mouth.

I dont blame the supplement companies for hyping their products...they are doing what needs to be done to make money. I DO however blame those individuals who think taking a pill or a powder will give you the same gains as years and years of sacrifice and discipline. Its just not possible. But peopel are impatient and want to have phenomenal strength and physique with minimal effort. This is the problem in my opinion.


I also blame the experienced athletes who are not honest about their supplementation and blame massive gains on natural products....im sorry...no pro bodybuilder added 15-20lbs of lean muscle in 10 weeks using muscletech. I really do find it a problem that people will with hold what truly works for them in an effort to stay ahead of the curve while the younger generation listens to the lies of not only the companies but the athletes who sell their souls for the almighty dollar bill.




And as far as your opinion about AM, well i mean i only disagree with you because i have found a number of mentors that have aided me in my progression as an athlete here on AM. I am biased b/c i have truly relished here and have grown as a man and a lifter within my time here. Yes there may be some shameless brown nosing...but i honestly dont mind it so much in comparison with the good this forum has done for me.

 

[LAGear]

There are a lot of supplements that are good for you and good for your health; I think you've included some of those in your list. I was specifically referring to supplements that can be linked to better training results. There are very few of those and my list isn't nearly as long as yours.

One thing you mention is combo supplements. I won't touch them unless they tell me exactly how much of each component I am getting. If it's a proprietary blend then it's absolutely worthless to me because there could be trace amounts of some of the ingredients. The company will deny this of course, but we've already established that supplement companies are primarily in the marketing business and their claims are not to be trusted. If you won't tell me what's in the product then I can't trust it. Period. Besides, it's usually cheaper to buy what I want in bulk and use exactly as much as I need.

Unlike the vast majority of supplement users (as you said there is an epidemic) you understand that even the best supplement is only going to give you minimal benefit and you aren't going to get that benefit unless you're doing everything else (diet & training) right. Most people who use workout supplements aren't anywhere close to having their diet & training dialed in to a degree where they will see any benefit from supplements. Most people using supplements are just pissing their money away.

However, unlike you, I almost completely blame the supplement companies for this "silver bullet" epidemic. People have these ridiculous beliefs about workout supplements because of the marketing. If the supplement companies told people that their products are worthless unless you bust your ass in the gym and watch your diet like a hawk that is what people would expect. And by the same token sales would plummet.

People want to believe there is a silver bullet and the supplement companies peddle their wares as such. We'd all love a silver bullet but some of us are sophisticated enough to know there is no such thing and there will never be such a thing. But you shouldn't bash less knowledgeable/less experienced people because they take the bait.

I lump the athletes in with the supplement companies. They are part of the same machine. The athletes spread whatever message the supplement companies pay them to spread. If steroids were legal you can bet the athletes would be promoting steroids instead of products that they know don't work (assuming equal pay).

As for my opinion of AM, it is generally high. Like you, I've received lots of good advice about supplements, training, nutrition, etc. And I've tried to help people as well. The only bone I have to pick with AM is with respect to supplement reviews and logs. They simply can't be trusted. DW said it best: "If you can't say No what's your Yes worth?"

I appreciate the intelligent discussion on this subject. This could have easily deteriorated into an ugly flame war but I think it's been a rather constructive exchange of thoughts.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

There are a lot of supplements that are good for you and good for your health; I think you've included some of those in your list. I was specifically referring to supplements that can be linked to better training results. There are very few of those and my list isn't nearly as long as yours.

One thing you mention is combo supplements. I won't touch them unless they tell me exactly how much of each component I am getting. If it's a proprietary blend then it's absolutely worthless to me because there could be trace amounts of some of the ingredients. The company will deny this of course, but we've already established that supplement companies are primarily in the marketing business and their claims are not to be trusted. If you won't tell me what's in the product then I can't trust it. Period. Besides, it's usually cheaper to buy what I want in bulk and use exactly as much as I need.

Unlike the vast majority of supplement users (as you said there is an epidemic) you understand that even the best supplement is only going to give you minimal benefit and you aren't going to get that benefit unless you're doing everything else (diet & training) right. Most people who use workout supplements aren't anywhere close to having their diet & training dialed in to a degree where they will see any benefit from supplements. Most people using supplements are just pissing their money away.

However, unlike you, I almost completely blame the supplement companies for this "silver bullet" epidemic. People have these ridiculous beliefs about workout supplements because of the marketing. If the supplement companies told people that their products are worthless unless you bust your ass in the gym and watch your diet like a hawk that is what people would expect. And by the same token sales would plummet.

People want to believe there is a silver bullet and the supplement companies peddle their wares as such. We'd all love a silver bullet but some of us are sophisticated enough to know there is no such thing and there will never be such a thing. But you shouldn't bash less knowledgeable/less experienced people because they take the bait.

I lump the athletes in with the supplement companies. They are part of the same machine. The athletes spread whatever message the supplement companies pay them to spread. If steroids were legal you can bet the athletes would be promoting steroids instead of products that they know don't work (assuming equal pay).

As for my opinion of AM, it is generally high. Like you, I've received lots of good advice about supplements, training, nutrition, etc. And I've tried to help people as well. The only bone I have to pick with AM is with respect to supplement reviews and logs. They simply can't be trusted. DW said it best: "If you can't say No what's your Yes worth?"

I appreciate the intelligent discussion on this subject. This could have easily deteriorated into an ugly flame war but I think it's been a rather constructive exchange of thoughts.

I think you summarized this eloquently. We both have a very similar opinion and we have two different point of views in which we express our similar opinions. This has been a very constructive conversation and i am happy we came to a very mature and logical agreement.

Your point of view hold validity i cannot deny. But with time i feel that as more conversations like this are had we can slowly weed out what doesnt work and help educate those who are ignorant to become intelligent and discerning athletes.

:bigok:

 

[Mulletsoldier]

For the most part I don't hold this against them except when a company like USP makes ABSURD claims like boosting HGH production over 200% after just one dose.

Post L-DOPA Values

In comparison, both PRL and GH were altered significantly in the young and old subjects following L-DOPA (fig 2). Plasma PRL decreased by 12% in the young (p < 0.001) and by 10% in the elderly (p < 0.001). Plasma GH increased by 221% in the young (p < 0.004) and by 167% in the old (p < 0.003). The post L-DOPA levels of plasma PRL and GH were similar in young and old subjects.

Dopaminergic regulation of gonadotropin and thyrotropin hormone secretion is altered with age. Horm Res. 1991;36(1-2):41-6.

Greenspan SL, Sparrow D, Rowe JW.

Results

With the administration of levodopa, maximal growth-hormone levels of greater than 5 ng/ml were noted between 60 and 120 minutes after its administration in 21 of 24 subjects tested (Figure 2).

Provocative Tests of Growth-Hormone Release: A Comparison of Results with Seven Stimuli. Annals of Internal Medicine. April 1, 1974; 80 (4) 464-469.

TU LIN, JOSEPH R. TUCCI.

Each of these tests - which, at least in the young, actually elicited a plasma-to-peak GH response of more than 200% - were conducted using 500mg of L-DOPA. To that end, the Mucuna pruriens in PowerFULL is standardized to 50% L-DOPA, allotting a sufficient amount of L-DOPA per three capsule serving to match the clinical parameters noted here. Of course, this is to say nothing of the literature displaying that Mucuna pruriens monotherapy, in contrast to levodopa/carbidopa combination therapy, has significantly larger AUC and peak concentrations, as well as a significantly lessened onset and latency to peak times - which viably allows one to suggest that Mucuna pruriens is superior to its synthetic counterpart with respect to the pituitary release of GH. (Particularly considering the above single-dose challenges did not employ a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor at all.) That is probably a debate for another day, though.

In reality, the only absurdity here is that you dismiss compounds you know little about. While I respect your right to voice your subjective opinion on the general efficacy of dietary supplements, I also feel confident in fulfilling my obligation to objectively correct you in instances where you are ignorant to the data. So, I thought this post was necessary to square your comments away, and put them in proper context.

Continue on.

 

[LAGear]

In reality, the only absurdity here is that you dismiss compounds you know little about. While I respect your right to voice your subjective opinion on the general efficacy of dietary supplements, I also feel confident in fulfilling my obligation to objectively correct you in instances where you are ignorant to the data. So, I thought this post was necessary to square your comments away, and put them in proper context.

Continue on.

You and I both know that Powerfull does not increase HGH by over 200% after one dose for people who are weight training. If Powerfull actually worked the way it is marketed -- the way USP wants people to believe it works -- every single weight lifter would be using it and seeing dramatic results.

Unfortunately, the most commonly reported effect of using Powerfull is sound sleep.

Show me multiple studies where weight trained individuals had 200% increase in HGH which led to significant muscle gains, fat loss, etc. If Powerfull did what it claimed it would be considered the miracle/wonder drug of the weight training world and beyond. And it would probably be banned by every sports sanctioning body there is.

Regardless of the study USP relies on, its marketing is downright misleading. USP is egregious in their puffery but they are hardly alone. I don't think I'd be wrong in saying that every single supplement company misapplies studies in an effort to hawk their products. In the vast majority of cases people who buy the products do not see the scientificlaly-assured results.

You can cite all the studies you want. I've been around the block too many times to take the bait but lucky for USP plenty of others will. Plain and simple, Powerfull does not produce the results one would expect from an instant 200% increase in HGH. I'm talking real world here, not scientific gibberish.

Continue on.

 

[Blacktail]

You and I both know that Powerfull does not increase HGH by over 200% after one dose for people who are weight training. If Powerfull actually worked the way it is marketed -- the way USP wants people to believe it works -- every single weight lifter would be using it and seeing dramatic results.

Unfortunately, the most commonly reported effect of using Powerfull is sound sleep.

Show me multiple studies where weight trained individuals had 200% increase in HGH which led to significant muscle gains, fat loss, etc. If Powerfull did what it claimed it would be considered the miracle/wonder drug of the weight training world and beyond. And it would probably be banned by every sports sanctioning body there is.

Regardless of the study USP relies on, its marketing is downright misleading. USP is egregious in their puffery but they are hardly alone. I don't think I'd be wrong in saying that every single supplement company misapplies studies in an effort to hawk their products. In the vast majority of cases people who buy the products do not see the scientificlaly-assured results.

You can cite all the studies you want. I've been around the block too many times to take the bait but lucky for USP plenty of others will. Plain and simple, Powerfull does not produce the results one would expect from an instant 200% increase in HGH. I'm talking real world here, not scientific gibberish.

Continue on.

You do not know what HGH does. Why talk like you do?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

You and I both know that Powerfull does not increase HGH by over 200% after one dose for people who are weight training. If Powerfull actually worked the way it is marketed -- the way USP wants people to believe it works -- every single weight lifter would be using it and seeing dramatic results.

Your point is not well made.

Given that both the Greenspan and Tucci studies were conducted in healthy models, and elicited increases in growth hormone production from the classic pharmacological pathway of the catecholamine-modulated hypothalamic-pituitary axis, there is absolutely no reason to suspect it would not. Your caveat depends upon the stimuli of weight training miraculously introducing some pathological impediment to this pathway that it quite frankly does not. Further, the available clinical literature on both levodopa and Mucuna pruriens suggests their pharmacological action is dose, but not weight dependent, which again largely discredits your premise with regard to weight-trained individuals.

Unfortunately, the most commonly reported effect of using Powerfull is sound sleep.

This is not only an entirely subjective opinion, but is apropos of nothing. It requires and deserves no further response.

Show me multiple studies where weight trained individuals had 200% increase in HGH which led to significant muscle gains, fat loss, etc. If Powerfull did what it claimed it would be considered the miracle/wonder drug of the weight training world and beyond. And it would probably be banned by every sports sanctioning body there is.

It is blatantly clear you largely fail to understand the patent and accepted physiological pathways behind hypothalamic-pituitary growth hormone secretion.

Again, while you continue to rely on "weight-training" as a caveat which is intended to dismiss all literature conducted in alternate states, there is nothing in the available data to suggest that the major agents involved in endogenous, somatoropic growth hormone synthesis and release (stimulation of the neurosecretory nuclei by the central catecholamines to release somatocrinin and the reception of somatocrinin by the somatotrophs and subsequent production of growth hormone) are altered by resistance training to the point where non-resistance trained models would produce statistically insignificant results. Your struggles to make a relevant point are further compounded by the fact that various clinical data administering levels of exogenous growth hormone which are dose-equivalent to the increases in endogenous synthesis after L-DOPA treatment, suggest significant alterations in the FFW:FW ratio (fat free weight to fat weight).

While the comment "it was not tested in weight-trained individuals!" is a tactic used so frequently it is worn thin, those who make it perpetually fail to understand where it is and is not a clinically-relevant parameter which merits analytic consideration. In this instance, it is not.

Regardless of the study USP relies on, its marketing is downright misleading. USP is egregious in their puffery but they are hardly alone. I don't think I'd be wrong in saying that every single supplement company misapplies studies in an effort to hawk their products. In the vast majority of cases people who buy the products do not see the scientificlaly-assured results.

Given that you have continually displayed that your comments are either clouded by ignorance or bias-driven, it is not sufficient to take them on face value alone any longer. As a result, it may be beneficial for this discussion to examine the "misleading" promotional literature you continually refer to. Taken from usplabsdirect.com/powerfull

Growth Hormone is an anabolic hormone which stimulates protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. These anabolic actions are at least as powerful as that of testosterone, although it works through a different pathway.

Consequently, the effects of testosterone and GH are at least additive and potentially synergistic. Growth Hormone causes a decrease in glucose utilization in adipose or fat tissue, while also stimulating lipolysis (fat burning). In skeletal muscle, GH stimulates glucose and amino acid uptake.

As a result of the above effects, Growth hormone promotes an overall anabolic effect upon skeletal muscle, while also promoting a catabolic effect upon adipose tissue; Growth Hormone has potent effects upon body fat distribution [4] .

Key Ingredients In PowerFULL™...

These studies were on a compound, heavily expressed in the key ingredient in PowerFULL...

Power
In a study by Lin and Tucci the average HGH level increased from approximately 3 ng/ml to a peak of approximately 12 ng/ml over a 60 minute time period after oral administration of one of the active constituents of PowerFull. In this same study, some individuals experienced an even larger rise, with a peak HGH level of over 30 ng/ml.* [1]

In a completely different study performed by Greenspan et al., one ingredient in PowerFull was shown to increase plasma HGH levels by 221% over a 60 minute time period after oral administration in normal men.**[2]

This is THIRD PARTY research…

In addition, the ingredients have shown to be non-toxic, as seen in studies conducted in animals .[3]

The qualifications on the bottom of this page go on to describe the precise conditions which give rise to such increases in growth hormone, which I hesitate to deem misleading in anyway. Obviously, your misconceptions as to the promotion of PowerFULL as a whole require no further elaboration.

You can cite all the studies you want. I've been around the block too many times to take the bait but lucky for USP plenty of others will. Plain and simple, Powerfull does not produce the results one would expect from an instant 200% increase in HGH. I'm talking real world here, not scientific gibberish.

If this one individual is you, I am quite sure this comment holds true: but only because you have openly displayed your expectations and operational knowledge of both exogenous growth hormone administration, and endogenous growth hormone enhancement, to be entirely lacking.

Continue on.

I am not entirely sure this is advice you care to take for yourself.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

Powerfull is so silly it makes me want to punch babies. GH is by its very natural a highly pulsatile hormone, I don't think you're going to boost overall production much by these compounds compared to injection of exogenous GH. You can get the GH to release because, well, tons of **** does:

http://ergo-log.com/gelatinegh.html
http://ergo-log.com/proteinbreakfast.html

Why, look at that! A carb free protein shake in a fasted state INCREASES GH OUTPUT BY 1000%! Someone call Muscletech's ad department!

Secondly, carbs interfere with the GH spiking process. There are plenty of strategies that are more advisable than taking a GH supplement to maximize the GH response. However, we should keep in mind that a lot of times it is going to be simpler to just do a program we know works, eat a ton, and get good sleep. Almost anything involving GH that isn't injected is too small an effect to notice.

 

[strategicmove]

Powerfull is so silly it makes me want to punch babies. GH is by its very natural a highly pulsatile hormone, I don't think you're going to boost overall production much by these compounds compared to injection of exogenous GH. You can get the GH to release because, well, tons of **** does:

http://ergo-log.com/gelatinegh.html
http://ergo-log.com/proteinbreakfast.html

Why, look at that! A carb free protein shake in a fasted state INCREASES GH OUTPUT BY 1000%! Someone call Muscletech's ad department!

Secondly, carbs interfere with the GH spiking process. There are plenty of strategies that are more advisable than taking a GH supplement to maximize the GH response. However, we should keep in mind that a lot of times it is going to be simpler to just do a program we know works, eat a ton, and get good sleep. Almost anything involving GH that isn't injected is too small an effect to notice.

The fact that endogenous growth hormone is released in a pulsatile manner was not controversial. Suggesting, however, that this pulsatile manner of secretion precludes an acute release of the hormone, is simply a mix-up of the concepts of an acute response and a chronic response. Given the appropriate stimulus pr stimuli, acute GH release can be significant. Without the existence of a pathological condition, however, a chronic secretion of growth hormone is inhibited by a variety of regulatory mechanisms that constitute a part of the metabolic control system. As you know, growth hormone induces two main classes of effects, the direct effects and the indirect effects. Direct effects are triggered when GH binds to its receptor on target cells, producing conformational changes and receptor activation that ultimately lead to activation of metabolic processes, such as macronutrient metabolism. The indirect effects are modulated by the predominantly hepatic hormone, insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1), that is released in reaction to growth hormone secretion. IGF-1 then regulates growth-related effects, including protein synthesis, bone and tissue growth. So, the pulsatile nature of GH secretion ensures that these metabolic processes do not get out of control. It does not mean that the secretion cannot be profound. More precisely, the pulsatile nature of GH release is the outcome of the interplay between GH-stimulatory factors (GHRH, ghrelin, beta-adrenergic inhibitors, dopaminergic and serotoninergic agonists, and alpha-adrenergic stimulators such as amino acids, hypoglycaemia, stress, and exercise) and GH-inhibitory factors (somatostatin, beta-adrenergic agonists, dopaminergic, serotoninergic, and alpha-adrenergic antagonists, as well as the negative feedback mechanism involving IGF-1 and growth-hormone itself). So, PowerFULL as a dopaminergic agonist can induce significantly increased endogenous GH output, while the pulsatile nature of GH release ensures robust metabolic regulation.

 

[LAGear]

And now we've gone off the frickin' deep end.

USP promotes a 200% increase in HGH after one dose in an effort to bait people into thinking they are going to see massive gains. They support it with a study that means nothing to a weight lifter.

If anyone thinks USP's marketing claims about HGH production aren't intended to deceive people into thinking they're going to see radical gains well then you are either in denial or have an intellectual deficiency.

I don't give a rat's ass about the study. What matters is that nobody is going to see the kind of results USP suggests you will get by using Powerfull. You can disagree and argue that point all you want. But you'll be wrong and I'm not going to engage in any more debate about this because it's a waste of everyone's time and enables the marketing people to push their agenda.

 

[HereToStudy]

 

[strategicmove]

And now we've gone off the frickin' deep end.

USP promotes a 200% increase in HGH after one dose in an effort to bait people into thinking they are going to see massive gains. They support it with a study that means nothing to a weight lifter.

If anyone thinks USP's marketing claims about HGH production aren't intended to deceive people into thinking they're going to see radical gains well then you are either in denial or have an intellectual deficiency.

I don't give a rat's ass about the study. What matters is that nobody is going to see the kind of results USP suggests you will get by using Powerfull. You can disagree and argue that point all you want. But you'll be wrong and I'm not going to engage in any more debate about this because it's a waste of everyone's time and enables the marketing people to push their agenda.

You initially gave the impression USPLabs conjured the 200% figure from the air, and so you requested for a supporting study. Mulletsoldier provided the study in an excellent post. All in a sudden the study became irrelevant from your point of view, even though it is a legitimate and relevant study. Most would agree with you that there is nothing more to debate here, as your original demand for a proof, in terms of the study, has been more than met.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

And now we've gone off the frickin' deep end.

USP promotes a 200% increase in HGH after one dose in an effort to bait people into thinking they are going to see massive gains. They support it with a study that means nothing to a weight lifter.

If anyone thinks USP's marketing claims about HGH production aren't intended to deceive people into thinking they're going to see radical gains well then you are either in denial or have an intellectual deficiency.

I don't give a rat's ass about the study. What matters is that nobody is going to see the kind of results USP suggests you will get by using Powerfull. You can disagree and argue that point all you want. But you'll be wrong and I'm not going to engage in any more debate about this because it's a waste of everyone's time and enables the marketing people to push their agenda.

Honestly, any further comment from you on this topic is irrelevant at best: you have shown yourself to be unfamiliar with not only the pharmacology behind these ingredients, but in an ironic twist, unfamiliar with the marketing you have spent several posts nattering on about. My suggestion to you would be to cut your losses and move on.

 

[LAGear]

You initially gave the impression USPLabs conjured the 200% figure from the air, and so you requested for a supporting study. Mulletsoldier provided the study in an excellent post. All in a sudden the study became irrelevant from your point of view, even though it is a legitimate and relevant study. Most would agree with you that there is nothing more to debate here, as your original demand for a proof, in terms of the study, has been more than met.

I never asked for a study. I know USP has a study to support their claim. But like every other supplement company they are trying to use the result to deceive people into thinking the use of Powerfull will result in massive gains. The study is irrelevant here, it's a technicality. What is relevant is USP's intent to mislead. If you don't see that I can't make you see it.

And no, you can't say it's the consumer's fault for jumping to the wrong conclusion about the claims because USP is **COUNTING** on the average consumer's lack of sophistication to draw faulty conclusions. This is supplement marketing 101. It has nothing to do with biology or pharmacology. Again, if you can't see that I can't make you see it.

I can't believe we're discussing the verity of supplement company marketing claims. LOL I'm sorry if I seem to be picking on USP. All the supplement companies do it. It's just that USP's claims about Powerfull, to me, are just about the most deceptive in the industry. Does anyone really think that USP's intentions are pure and that they are being totally truthful and they genuinely hope that consumers understand that this supplement won't do much beyond give them sound sleep? I hope not...

 

[HereToStudy]

Are you trying to say that clinical trials prove nothing?

Also what is unpure about USP's marketing? They refrence everything. They explained everything you can throw at them. Rather then throwing in the towel, like you should have awhile ago, you seem to be dead set on "winning" this discussion. You went from USPs Product Don't work to USP to USP is overhyped, to not believing in studies (WTF?!?), to all supplements as a whole only sell because people are idiots.

If you don't want to believe the pharmacology, then don't buy the products. But battering on and on when you clearly have no idea what you are discussing is leading to alot of headaches, and quite frankly, wasted bandwidth.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I never asked for a study. I know USP has a study to support their claim. But like every other supplement company they are trying to use the result to deceive people into thinking the use of Powerfull will result in massive gains. The study is irrelevant here, it's a technicality. What is relevant is USP's intent to mislead. If you don't see that I can't make you see it.

And no, you can't say it's the consumer's fault for jumping to the wrong conclusion about the claims because USP is **COUNTING** on the average consumer's lack of sophistication to draw faulty conclusions. This is supplement marketing 101. It has nothing to do with biology or pharmacology. Again, if you can't see that I can't make you see it.

I can't believe we're discussing the verity of supplement company marketing claims. LOL I'm sorry if I seem to be picking on USP. All the supplement companies do it. It's just that USP's claims about Powerfull, to me, are just about the most deceptive in the industry. Does anyone really think that USP's intentions are pure and that they are being totally truthful and they genuinely hope that consumers understand that this supplement won't do much beyond give them sound sleep? I hope not...

To most people reading this thread, two things ought to be plainly evident at this point. The first, you are either unwilling or unable to discuss the actual pharmacological merits of the product, and resort instead to puerile bellyaching about the "marketing, man." The second, that you are painfully and ironically unaware of what you continue to blather on about.

Again, these two things considered, it is obvious that we cannot simply take for granted your ability to carry on a dialogue thoroughly guided by the topic of your unrest. So, with that being said, I want you to gander at the below quote, for the second time, and clearly and concisely explain your abject disgust with it:

Growth Hormone is an anabolic hormone which stimulates protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. These anabolic actions are at least as powerful as that of testosterone, although it works through a different pathway.

Consequently, the effects of testosterone and GH are at least additive and potentially synergistic. Growth Hormone causes a decrease in glucose utilization in adipose or fat tissue, while also stimulating lipolysis (fat burning). In skeletal muscle, GH stimulates glucose and amino acid uptake.

As a result of the above effects, Growth hormone promotes an overall anabolic effect upon skeletal muscle, while also promoting a catabolic effect upon adipose tissue; Growth Hormone has potent effects upon body fat distribution [4].

Obviously, as your prattle is based equally on promotion and pharmacology, I would naturally expect your concerns about these complaints to follow suit. Keep in mind, this is taken directly from our website, and all of our print marketing regarding this product follows suit.

 

[strategicmove]

I never asked for a study. I know USP has a study to support their claim. But like every other supplement company they are trying to use the result to deceive people into thinking the use of Powerfull will result in massive gains. The study is irrelevant here, it's a technicality. What is relevant is USP's intent to mislead. If you don't see that I can't make you see it. .

I know a few other posters before me have commented on your post, but I would like to add a few things, considering that you responded to my earlier post:

Most (potential) users of a product, PowerFULL or any other, would insist that a supplement manufacturer provides at least a study to support its product claims. You admitted USPLabs produced a study to support its claim regarding pronounced endogenous growth-hormone secretion post-PowerFULL supplementation, but are insisting USPLabs claims are purposely deceitful! How can a clinically correct product claim regarding the effects of a certain compound in the product, based on independent (third-party) research, also be deceitful at the same time? Please resolve this contradiction for me! USPLabs' product claims can only be intentionally deceitful or misleading, if those claims lack any theoretical and clinical support. Most would agree that that is not the case in this instance, as both theoretical and clinical justifications have been provided.

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And no, you can't say it's the consumer's fault for jumping to the wrong conclusion about the claims because USP is **COUNTING** on the average consumer's lack of sophistication to draw faulty conclusions. This is supplement marketing 101. It has nothing to do with biology or pharmacology. Again, if you can't see that I can't make you see it. .

With all due respect, you appear to be the one drawing the wrong conclusions here. I challenge your postulate that the average consumer is as ignorant as you are painting him/her to be. USPLabs is counting on the average consumer understanding how PowerFULL works. It is only when they understand it, that they can challenge your unfounded attacks. Furthermore, "supplement marketing 101", as you put it, is about highlighting the key selling points of a product in a manner that conveys a reason to buy. It has nothing to do with deceit and intentional misleading of consumers. That would be unethical, immoral, and criminal, and not "supplement marketing 101"! Finally, this is certainly all about biology, pharmacology, endocrinology, and so on. If these foundations are lacking in any supplement concept, one might as well be selling stardust!

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I can't believe we're discussing the verity of supplement company marketing claims. LOL I'm sorry if I seem to be picking on USP. All the supplement companies do it. It's just that USP's claims about Powerfull, to me, are just about the most deceptive in the industry. Does anyone really think that USP's intentions are pure and that they are being totally truthful and they genuinely hope that consumers understand that this supplement won't do much beyond give them sound sleep? I hope not...

Why don't you expose the faulty science behind PowerFULL. And, by the way, why do you think users report truncated post-exercise recovery time and deep recuperative sleep while on PowerFULL? Is this a coincidence, or has enhanced endogenous growth hormone secretion anything to do with these results?

 

[antknee]

i wasnt really impressed with PM- i was VERY impressed with Prime and was breaking PR's very quickly on it..all PM did was make me sweat alot more. i have two buddys running it now and they are noticing the same type of thing.
prime- ill run again, no question..
pm- tried it, didnt like, wont buy again.

just some honest 2 cents worth..