Modified CKD for normal people

[SuppKnight]

Half-tinos :lol: I never heard that before.

Eating surplus is actually a good thing. I have to go cook dinner but a quick rundown. In sub maintenance calories the body will shift its metabolism to slow down to prevent loss of weight. When you carb load you reverse this process.

This is the same reason why people calorie cycle as well. Your body will switch its metabolism more eagerly to overeating than under eating, fat is an evolutionary salvation tool to the body so when it can pull in fat it will.

You are one of the lucky ones. Same with me, I can easily eat low on this diet and during carb ups I can eat my fill. It's a gift really.

So you're saying that my approach is ok, right? As long as I eat my fill on carb-ups, my metabolism won't slow down so much on Keto days, yes?

 

[ThomasRivera]

So you're saying that my approach is ok, right? As long as I eat my fill on carb-ups, my metabolism won't slow down so much on Keto days, yes?

Keto diets don't dip too low on calories. Just because its easy to eat 1k calories doesn't mean you should. You can calorie cycle on low carb days. Say 2000 calories a day every day for 5 days and your maitenance is 2500, so for 1 pound of net weight loss a week.

Day 1:1700
Day 2:1500
Day 3:2900
day 4:2200
Day 5:1700

Something like that, you keep a grand total of 10000 calories but you reverse the metabolic shift that occurs from low calories.

 

[SuppKnight]

Keto diets don't dip too low on calories. Just because its easy to eat 1k calories doesn't mean you should. You can calorie cycle on low carb days. Say 2000 calories a day every day for 5 days and your maitenance is 2500, so for 1 pound of net weight loss a week.

Day 1:1700
Day 2:1500
Day 3:2900
day 4:2200
Day 5:1700

Something like that, you keep a grand total of 10000 calories but you reverse the metabolic shift that occurs from low calories.

But when does this metabolic shift ocurr? I was under the impression that it takes at least 3 days. So couldn't I eat 1000 below maintenance for 3 days, maintenance for a day, 1000 below maintenance for 1 day, and then start the carb-up? Something like: (Maintenance 2700)

M: 1700
T: 1700
W: 1700
Th: 2700
F: 1700
Sa-Su: Carb-up

I just find it extremely hard to eat more than 1700 on Keto days.

 

[SuppKnight]

I'm starting to shed faster now, I'll post updated pics on friday before carb-up.

I guess this CKD takes a minimum of 2 weeks to start showing the results.

 

[cjszip]

I'm starting to shed faster now, I'll post updated pics on friday before carb-up.

I guess this CKD takes a minimum of 2 weeks to start showing the results.

Most diets do take about 2-3 weeks to "take effect". Ketogenic diets especially, as they take varying amounts of time between individuals to reach a certain point of depletion before one begins to see the net result of cyclical-type diet.

Keep up the good work, brother. It should continue to improve as your body begins to become more effective at each phase of the cycle.

 

[SuppKnight]

Most diets do take about 2-3 weeks to "take effect". Ketogenic diets especially, as they take varying amounts of time between individuals to reach a certain point of depletion before one begins to see the net result of cyclical-type diet.

Keep up the good work, brother. It should continue to improve as your body begins to become more effective at each phase of the cycle.

Thanks for the tip.

By the way, I have been eating some sugar-alcohol sweets every once in a while, and they have not disrupted my Ketosis at all (I have been testing with Ketostix 30 minutes and 1 hour after eating the sweets). If that's the case, can I continue enjoying these sweets sometimes?

 

[cjszip]

Thanks for the tip.

By the way, I have been eating some sugar-alcohol sweets every once in a while, and they have not disrupted my Ketosis at all (I have been testing with Ketostix 30 minutes and 1 hour after eating the sweets). If that's the case, can I continue enjoying these sweets sometimes?

In moderation, they should be absolutely fine. If overdone, they will shift you out of ketosis, but that's only because sugar-alcohol does affect glucose metabolism, slightly. So your big concern isn't ketosis, it's an over abundance of total kcal. In your case, you'll be fine.

"...Other nutritive sweeteners include the sugar alcohols such as mannitol, sorbitol, isomalt, and xylitol. Popular in sugar-free gums, mints, and diabetic candies, sugar alcohols are less sweet than sucrose. Foods with sugar alcohols have health benefits that foods made with sugars do not have, such as reduced glycemic response and decreased risk of dental caries (cavities). Also, because sugar alcohols are absorbed slowly and incompletely from the intestine, they provide less energy than sugar, usually 2 to 3 kcal of energy per gram. However, because they are not completely absorbed from the intestine, they can attract water into the large intestine and cause diarrhea."

-Taken from one of my text books, The Science of Nutrition. Written by Janice L. Thompson, Melinda M. Manore, and Linda A. Vaughan. Pub. by Pearson, Benjamin Cummings.

EDIT: I also have a sweet tooth, and I've been known to stock a few sugar-free Jello's along with some fat free redi-whip (5 calories per serving). A little goes a long way. Just be careful.

 

[ThomasRivera]

I'm starting to shed faster now, I'll post updated pics on friday before carb-up.

I guess this CKD takes a minimum of 2 weeks to start showing the results.

This diet takes up to 3 weeks to hit the point where it will be the most efficient. It has to do with the body and how it needs to change. Up to the three week point your body will shift towards using primarily free fatty acids for an energy source.

 

[SuppKnight]

This diet takes up to 3 weeks to hit the point where it will be the most efficient. It has to do with the body and how it needs to change. Up to the three week point your body will shift towards using primarily free fatty acids for an energy source.

Well, that is good news then, since I've lost 5.8 lbs in two weeks and lost 1 to 1.5 mm measured by caliper (about 1%-2% BF). If the 3rd week mark is the sweet spot, I should be able to lose fat even faster, which would make this diet the most effective I've ever done for losing fat maintaining lean mass.

One question though: I'm seeing a lot of loose skin in my mid-section, as opposed to the plump effect before. I'd rather have the loose skin, but is there any way to minimize this while dieting? Or is the only solution to continue losing fat to the point where the skin is close to the muscle?

 

[ShakesAllDay]

One question though: I'm seeing a lot of loose skin in my mid-section, as opposed to the plump effect before. I'd rather have the loose skin, but is there any way to minimize this while dieting? Or is the only solution to continue losing fat to the point where the skin is close to the muscle?

I know exactly what you are talking about. The 'hard' fat, turns into 'saggy' fat. LOL Yeah, you just have to keep losin'. Eventually that saggy stuff will go away.

 

[SuppKnight]

I finished my carb-up yesterday night. That was my second carb-up, so the third week of the diet starts now.

Observations:

1. I ate a much cleaner menu for this second carb-up, yet glycogen super-compensation once again was lower than my expectations. I went from 187 lbs prior to carb-up, to 190 post carb-up.

Question: Does super-comp result in smaller weight gains for individuals with less muscle mass (bodybuilding beginners)? If so, that might account for my small gains.

2. Nausea is terrible in the mornings, but especially so the morning after a carb-up. I could not bear to look at the bun-less hotdogs and cheese I was about to eat.

And yet, I could have eaten some Rice Krispies with milk. Is this the brain's way of telling you it prefers carbs as fuel?

 

[SuppKnight]

By the way, anything I should be using to supplement the CKD for optimal muscle gains while losing fat? I'm losing weight quite quickly and I think some could be muscle.

Anything other than protein shakes that assist in muscle development? Would Creatine or something else work?

 

[ThomasRivera]

I finished my carb-up yesterday night. That was my second carb-up, so the third week of the diet starts now.

Observations:

1. I ate a much cleaner menu for this second carb-up, yet glycogen super-compensation once again was lower than my expectations. I went from 187 lbs prior to carb-up, to 190 post carb-up.

Question: Does super-comp result in smaller weight gains for individuals with less muscle mass (bodybuilding beginners)? If so, that might account for my small gains.

2. Nausea is terrible in the mornings, but especially so the morning after a carb-up. I could not bear to look at the bun-less hotdogs and cheese I was about to eat.

And yet, I could have eaten some Rice Krispies with milk. Is this the brain's way of telling you it prefers carbs as fuel?

1. Yes, glycogen recomposition differs depending on lean mass and experience. The more muscle you have and the further you are along in your body building trek, the more you will compensate. 3 pounds isn't a bad gain. Every gram of glycogen holds roughly 2.5-3 grams of water depending on what source you read. So even at 3 grams of water thats around 450 grams, which is average to be honest and means you are getting full glycogen storage. A regular person holds around 500 grams of glycogen I believe.

As you continue to train and advance that number will raise. As you continue the body will increase the size of its energy sinks (amount of glycogen you can store) and how efficient it is at using glycogen.

2. Your only on your third week, your body hasn't even gone into the deepest part of the ketogenic cycle. With that in mind, your brain still will have cravings for things it was used to. The nausea will subside and everything gets easier after the first month.

 

[cjszip]

As you continue the body will increase the size of its energy sinks (amount of glycogen you can store) and how efficient it is at using glycogen.

Please, elaborate on energy sinks.

 

[ThomasRivera]

By training you increase the amount of glycotic enzymes that the body produces, HIIT increases them as well. You increase the potential to turn carbohydrates into glycogen, how efficiently you store it and how much you can.

 

[cjszip]

By training you increase the amount of glycotic enzymes that the body produces, HIIT increases them as well. You increase the potential to turn carbohydrates into glycogen, how efficiently you store it and how much you can.

Excellent.. You essentially increase the contractile muscle fiber ribosome, upregulate glycotic enzymes, and increase the storing-threshold of ATP (which is upregulated in proportion to one's level of training advancement)?

 

[crzybowhntr]

fiber

 

[dbsb]

Have you tried ketostix?

 

[SuppKnight]

Have you tried ketostix?

I have; they're pretty good.

 

[SuppKnight]

Ok, I guess it's time for a pic bonanza, since I'm almost done with the first 3 weeks of this CKD.

First is a picture at my heaviest (215 lbs of pure, unadulterated fat)

Second, a picture of me 3 months ago during a regular, low calorie diet. I went down to 187 lbs at the time, but as you can see, there is no muscle, and still a lot of fat. Most importantly, I couldn't keep up with the diet and rebounded to 195 lbs.

Finally, a picture of me yesterday. The amazing element of the CKD is that in this final picture I weight 185 lbs, just 2 lbs more than in the middle pic. Yet clearly one can see that not only did I not lose muscle on the CKD, I may have even gained some. Yes, there is still a lot of fat in the abdominal area, and I have no chest to speak of, but one thing at a time, lol.

Anyways, I'll continue updating this thread regularly. I hope to maintain this diet for a total of 3 months at least.

 

[cjszip]

Outstanding progress. It's great to see others accomplishing their goals.

 

[SuppKnight]

Outstanding progress. It's great to see others accomplishing their goals.

Thank you; and it's great to have others give words of encouragement, that's what's helping me accomplish my goal.

 

[SuppKnight]

By the way, I started my 3rd carb-up today.

I switched up my routine a little today. I consumed 75g of carbs 2 hours before my depletion workout, and had the best workout of my entire life, no exaggeration.

I always do 11 total exercises during my depletion work-out, and today I was able to raise either the number of sets, the number of reps or the intensity in 8 of those 11 exercises; it felt fantastic!

Right after the work-out, I prepared a shake composed of 2 small bananas, 1 small apple, 2 cups of non-fat milk, and 60g of protein powder, and right now I'm feeling amazing.

I'll let you guys know later how the rest of my carb-up went.

 

[AMTorres]

Sounds like you're doin good supp! It feels like forever since I've done my CKD, but it's only been 2 weeks, just have alot goin on out here. Just wanted to let you know I'm back and watching from below (hell a.k.a. Iraq) haha!

 

[cjszip]

I'm still keeping an eye out suppknight. I'm starting a 6 week recomp tomorrow w/ epi pulsed and looking forward to it. I won't log anything on it or even post anything at all about it- I have very limited time. But I'll let you know how it goes, and in the event it goes way better than I'm anticipating, I'll send you the math.

 

[SuppKnight]

It's been basically 4 weeks since I started this CKD. Here's an update:

That's total weight loss. I went from 192.4 lbs to 183.8 lbs during these 4 weeks. I haven't seen or felt much, if any, muscle loss, but since I am a beginner lifter, muscle loss wasn't expected.

It should get harder from here on out, but I feel this has been a good start.

 

[SuppKnight]

Sounds like you're doin good supp! It feels like forever since I've done my CKD, but it's only been 2 weeks, just have alot goin on out here. Just wanted to let you know I'm back and watching from below (hell a.k.a. Iraq) haha!

Nice to hear from you, and glad you're safe. It's going great for me so far. I hope you get to do this diet again soon.

 

[SuppKnight]

I'm still keeping an eye out suppknight. I'm starting a 6 week recomp tomorrow w/ epi pulsed and looking forward to it. I won't log anything on it or even post anything at all about it- I have very limited time. But I'll let you know how it goes, and in the event it goes way better than I'm anticipating, I'll send you the math.

Nice, let me know how it works for you.

 

[AMTorres]

Nice to hear from you, and glad you're safe. It's going great for me so far. I hope you get to do this diet again soon.

Thx bro, I'm going to start it in May or early June, hopefully I will have a beach bod by the time I get back to SD late May, just been lifting and running when I can here. Keep up the good work!

 

[SuppKnight]

Hey all.

This diet keeps working out great for me, but now that I'm starting to lose a lot of fat and see muscles I started to notice how small my chest looks compared to the rest of my body. I've only been doing push-ups for chest so far and want to start other chest exercises.

Here's a rundown of the exercises I do. If you can, please tell me what exercises to drop to accomodate the new ones (for time management reasons):

a.Push-ups (3 of 22, 18, 10)
b.Dumbell Raise (2 sets of 10: 70 lbs)
c.Dumbell-Bench Press (2 of 10: 70 lbs)
d.Front Raise (2 sets of 8: 25 lbs)
e.Lateral Raise (2 sets of 8: 20 lbs)
f.Tricep Extensions (2 sets of 10: 20 lbs)
g.Bicep Curls (3 sets of 10: 25 lbs)
h.Bent-over Rows (2 sets of 10: 35 lbs)
i.Shrugs (3 sets of 10: 70 lbs)
j.Hammer Curls (2 sets-10: 25 lbs)
k.Crunches (30, 30, 20)


I want to add Incline and Decline Bench Press and Chest Flys.

 

[cjszip]

If you'd like to keep the pushups, I suggest changing the DB bench press to incline DB press. This will help build up the appearance of a higher chest.

 

[SuppKnight]

If you'd like to keep the pushups, I suggest changing the DB bench press to incline DB press. This will help build up the appearance of a higher chest.

I wanted to keep the push-ups (since they work the core also) and the DB bench press, and add incline and decline bench press.

That's 2 extra exercises, so I thought about stopping the tricep extensions, since all the chest work uses triceps as well, and maybe stop 1 of the 3 shoulder exercises (either front raise, lateral raise or dumbell raise). Which of the 3 shoulder exercises would be overkill, in your opinion?

 

[SuppKnight]

These are my most recent pics, taken about an hour ago. I was at 184.8 lbs this morning, the morning after my latest carb-up. I was at 181.8 the day of my depletion workout.

 

[cjszip]

I wanted to keep the push-ups (since they work the core also) and the DB bench press, and add incline and decline bench press.

That's 2 extra exercises, so I thought about stopping the tricep extensions, since all the chest work uses triceps as well, and maybe stop 1 of the 3 shoulder exercises (either front raise, lateral raise or dumbell raise). Which of the 3 shoulder exercises would be overkill, in your opinion?

Without a doubt, I'd say that front raises are overkill. For now, you're getting enough if you're doing military presses, DB military presses, and/or incline DB/BB presses.

I personally like to do a small amount of arm training (4 sets per week.) You can keep it or drop it- the overall impact won't be monumental.

 

[SuppKnight]

Without a doubt, I'd say that front raises are overkill. For now, you're getting enough if you're doing military presses, DB military presses, and/or incline DB/BB presses.

I personally like to do a small amount of arm training (4 sets per week.) You can keep it or drop it- the overall impact won't be monumental.

Thanks. By the way, looking at my most recent pics, other than the chest (I've just recently started working on it) and the stomach (still about 15 lbs of fat to go) how is the rest of my body shaping up? Is it an OK proportion or should I be working something differently?

 

[AMTorres]

Lookin good bro! Can't wait to join you one again on the CKD!

 

[cjszip]

Thanks. By the way, looking at my most recent pics, other than the chest (I've just recently started working on it) and the stomach (still about 15 lbs of fat to go) how is the rest of my body shaping up? Is it an OK proportion or should I be working something differently?

Looks good. You're proportional and you're really starting to lean up. Keep up the good work.

 

[SuppKnight]

WEIGHT LOSS PLATEAU:

I've hit quite a wall. After 4 weeks of rapid fat loss, it's been now two weeks of the same, lose 4 lbs during the week, gain 3.8 during the carb-up, for a net loss of 0.2 lbs per week.

This is prepoterous. I'm eating 500-800 calories below maintenance and exercising 3 days a week.

I do notice my chest getting a little bigger and some other muscles as well. Could it be simply muscle mass increasing? If so, is that really possible at 500-800 cals below maintenance? I don't think so.

What else could it be and how can I kickstart the weight loss again?

 

[ThomasRivera]

WEIGHT LOSS PLATEAU:

I've hit quite a wall. After 4 weeks of rapid fat loss, it's been now two weeks of the same, lose 4 lbs during the week, gain 3.8 during the carb-up, for a net loss of 0.2 lbs per week.

This is prepoterous. I'm eating 500-800 calories below maintenance and exercising 3 days a week.

I do notice my chest getting a little bigger and some other muscles as well. Could it be simply muscle mass increasing? If so, is that really possible at 500-800 cals below maintenance? I don't think so.

What else could it be and how can I kickstart the weight loss again?

Yes it is very possible. Not only is it possible it happens.

The carb load creates a very anabolic environment in the body and muscle growth is a result. CKD diets are very effective fat burning diets but they are more towards recomposition.

You can cycle calorie intake during the week.

 

[SuppKnight]

Yes it is very possible. Not only is it possible it happens.

The carb load creates a very anabolic environment in the body and muscle growth is a result. CKD diets are very effective fat burning diets but they are more towards recomposition.

You can cycle calorie intake during the week.

I see, but that's really mind-blowing for me. :shock: I was always under the (apparently wrong) impression that it was impossible to gain muscle unless one was at least eating 250 calories over maintenance.

I believe what you are saying (so far you have proven quite helpful), but could you elaborate on how the body, working with less calories than it needs for maintenance, still be able to spend energy towards muscle growth?

 

[ThomasRivera]

Sure. It's a combination between the low carb week being very protein sparing and muscle sparing, the suggested raise in test levels because of the diet and the carb load. The carb load causes a raise in test, insulin and gh all at once along with boosting back the metabolism up.

 

[SuppKnight]

Sure. It's a combination between the low carb week being very protein sparing and muscle sparing, the suggested raise in test levels because of the diet and the carb load. The carb load causes a raise in test, insulin and gh all at once along with boosting back the metabolism up.

Ok, I think I get it. So basically your body only assists in muscle growth during the carb-up, but since it kick starts anabolism by raising all key elements at once, it is as effective as feeding on carbs regularly. Plus, with the high consumption of protein during the week, you don't lose the weekend gains even on a restricted calorie diet. Am I right? If so, that is great, but it poses another, equally important question:

Why such a big difference between my first 4 weeks on a CKD (burning a lot of fat, losing a lot of weight, but not gaining muscle) and these past 2 weeks (losing nominal weight, almost no change in BF%, but gaining quite a bit of muscle)? The only difference I can think of is that in the past two weeks, my carb-up was a little longer than usual (maybe 12 hours longer). Can that alone account for the changes? Or can there be another factor? (body getting used to the diet, diet now working at its peak, etc.)

 

[AMTorres]

Hey bro, I uploaded some pics of the gym that I work out in here in Iraq, it's at the shitty base I went to. I figured you'd be interested in seeing it, here's the link to my post...

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/company-promotions/114543-muscle-pharm-wants-2.html

 

[ThomasRivera]

Ok, I think I get it. So basically your body only assists in muscle growth during the carb-up, but since it kick starts anabolism by raising all key elements at once, it is as effective as feeding on carbs regularly. Plus, with the high consumption of protein during the week, you don't lose the weekend gains even on a restricted calorie diet. Am I right? If so, that is great, but it poses another, equally important question:

Why such a big difference between my first 4 weeks on a CKD (burning a lot of fat, losing a lot of weight, but not gaining muscle) and these past 2 weeks (losing nominal weight, almost no change in BF%, but gaining quite a bit of muscle)? The only difference I can think of is that in the past two weeks, my carb-up was a little longer than usual (maybe 12 hours longer). Can that alone account for the changes? Or can there be another factor? (body getting used to the diet, diet now working at its peak, etc.)

The fat consumption and ketone production spare protein use during the week. Because the glucose requirements of the body drop so much during a keto style diet the amount of protein that would regularly be broken down to provide that glucose in the event of a lack of ingested glucose is also low.

The diet is now working at its peak. USually at the three week point the brain will require the lowest amount of glucose to operate, this is also the point in which the body will be using maximal amounts of FFA's to fuel itself. The body actually will use ketones at first then switch over to using FFA's exclusively as the brain uses ketones.

 

[SuppKnight]

Sorry for not updating in a while. I felt it was time to take a 5 day break from the CKD and I did just that, starting last Wednesday and ending yesterday.

I gained about 6 lbs (mainly water, I know) and I feel very refreshed; ready to start another month and a half. I feel in order to keep this diet working properly, one should take a break every month and a half.

Anyways, I'm back on track and will keep you updated.

 

[redemption79]

Subbed.

Great progress Supp. I am considering a similar diet in a couple months and will be following along.

Keep up the hard work!


- P.S. Although not on a keto diet, I'm currently eating under maintenance, losing 1-2 lbs/week, and adding measurable size and strength. I had a considerable amount of time off due to injury, so I'm getting some noobie style gains, but gaining muscle in a calorie deficit is very possible.
Just because there isn't an over-abundance of nourishment for your muscles doesn't mean they cant continue to be nourished.

 

[maurice02]

is there too much weight you can lose at once? I mean if you keep your protein and fat high, can you hypothetically still lose too much weight by doing too much cardio or anything along those lines?

I understand the first two weeks it can be normal to lose like 8 or 10 pounds (most of which is water I assume) but after that, is losing 4 pounds a week bad?

 

[SuppKnight]

Here's my most recent pics:

 

[cjszip]

The more of your progress pictures I see, the more I think our genetics are probably similar. You started out right around the same as I did. Keep up the great work- it's worth it.

 

[SuppKnight]

The more of your progress pictures I see, the more I think our genetics are probably similar. You started out right around the same as I did. Keep up the great work- it's worth it.

Similar in what way? Could you elaborate some more? Also, could you maybe PM me some of your before and after pics to take a look at your progress? Thanks in advance.