Liver damage from oral AAS greatly exggerated

[MrKleen73]

Thats what he said not what you said so yes were talking about tren and any other compound. I have never ran var at 700/week and not tren either. I did however run var at 350 and tren at 300/week and I can clearly see a difference. I'm not sure what you're talking to me about honestly. Anyways ,alright you said it now too.

Ah yes I went back and found where he said that... looking at the ratios/ where oxandrolone seems to be in a range, 24:322-630 compared to Tren which is 500:500 on paper they are estimated to be near equivalent in anabolism, but bioavailability of Tren is going to be higher Mg per Mg due to being injected. That will effect the overall outcome as well. With them being in a similar range anabolic wise, the injection delivery route is more than likely going to supply more mg to the system because some or the oral will be destroyed during the pass through the liver.

My response was to your specific comparison of Var to nandrolone in one of your responses. Tren is a beast of a different nature.

 

[solidsnake]

I understand that bro, I wasn’t talking about you anyway, there’s an old battle on here about var, that’s what I was referring to about trying to lighten things up. I’ve had many private conversations with mike Arnold and I totally respect his opinions tbh. I never thought for one minute you were talking about Arnie as in swarzenegger, it was more of the case of aas and cardiovascular health I was referring to

 

[MrKleen73]

I understand that bro, I wasn’t talking about you anyway, there’s an old battle on here about var, that’s what I was referring to about trying to lighten things up. I’ve had many private conversations with mike Arnold and I totally respect his opinions tbh. I never thought for one minute you were talking about Arnie as in swarzenegger, it was more of the case of aas and cardiovascular health I was referring to

Yeah, opinions can get a little heated but if things can be kept civil quite often a lot of information gets dropped in the process. So I like to discuss things, but once it turns into condescension or name calling things stop being very productive.

Didn't "The Oak" have some sort of heart surgery 10 or so years ago too? Some sort of procedure, I don't think that this is the first time he was hospitalized for his heart.

I know I had a buddy of mine that ran a good amount of gear, and then jumped on HGH for about a year. He had an enlarged heart and go water in the sack around the heart. He lost over 100lbs and was told he had about 10 years tops if he wasn't able to get a transplant... Definitely PED associated stuff there.

 

[solidsnake]

Yeah, opinions can get a little heated but if things can be kept civil quite often a lot of information gets dropped in the process. So I like to discuss things, but once it turns into condescension or name calling things stop being very productive.

Didn't "The Oak" have some sort of heart surgery 10 or so years ago too? Some sort of procedure, I don't think that this is the first time he was hospitalized for his heart.

I know I had a buddy of mine that ran a good amount of gear, and then jumped on HGH for about a year. He had an enlarged heart and go water in the sack around the heart. He lost over 100lbs and was told he had about 10 years tops if he wasn't able to get a transplant... Definitely PED associated stuff there.

Yeah in 97 he had something done but he said it was congenital and nothing to do with steroids. I suppose if you live by the sword you have to be prepared to die by the sword, sad news about your buddy bro

 

[Chados]

Ah yes I went back and found where he said that... looking at the ratios/ where oxandrolone seems to be in a range, 24:322-630 compared to Tren which is 500:500 on paper they are estimated to be near equivalent in anabolism, but bioavailability of Tren is going to be higher Mg per Mg due to being injected. That will effect the overall outcome as well. With them being in a similar range anabolic wise, the injection delivery route is more than likely going to supply more mg to the system because some or the oral will be destroyed during the pass through the liver.

My response was to your specific comparison of Var to nandrolone in one of your responses. Tren is a beast of a different nature.

I don't know if I quoted nandrolone specifically but i kinda did compare it to all aas. I don't dislike var but to me it's a weaker winstrol. I prefer var nowadays due to winstrol being quite hard to keep that dry look and also being more toxic and hard on joints. The ratios doesn't seem resonable at all to me in any of the compounds to be honest and I think that's where the truth is. Is tren 5 times as powerful as test? Perhaps. Does it give 5 times the gains? Not to me it doesn't, and maybe that's cause we all have some limit to how much muscles we can put on during a certain time, else everyone would run 1gr of test 1gr of tren etc. I just find it curious that ive never personally heard anyone else than spurfy claiming its the strongest aas out there and as far as I remember he never even used test. It's all good, I always try to keep it civil but it's a forum and we do have discussions due to learning or teaching.

 

[MrKleen73]

Yeah in 97 he had something done but he said it was congenital and nothing to do with steroids. I suppose if you live by the sword you have to be prepared to die by the sword, sad news about your buddy bro

Thanks we lost touch about 6 years ago and he wasn't expecting to get a transplant any time soon, and it had been about 7 years at that point. Apparently when you do it to yourself they put you further back on the priority replacement list. I can only assume he more than likely passed away by now if he did not get a new heart.

 

[FRITZBLITZZ]

I don't know if I quoted nandrolone specifically but i kinda did compare it to all aas. I don't dislike var but to me it's a weaker winstrol. I prefer var nowadays due to winstrol being quite hard to keep that dry look and also being more toxic and hard on joints. The ratios doesn't seem resonable at all to me in any of the compounds to be honest and I think that's where the truth is. Is tren 5 times as powerful as test? Perhaps. Does it give 5 times the gains? Not to me it doesn't, and maybe that's cause we all have some limit to how much muscles we can put on during a certain time, else everyone would run 1gr of test 1gr of tren etc. I just find it curious that ive never personally heard anyone else than spurfy claiming its the strongest aas out there and as far as I remember he never even used test. It's all good, I always try to keep it civil but it's a forum and we do have discussions due to learning or teaching.

I agree as for the anabolic/androgenic rating chart. I think it is way off on some things. I would like to know how they came up with these numbers. Anyways there should be an updated version that takes into account affinity to the andro receptor, nitrogen retention, half life ect. It would be very very useful if you could reference a detailed chart and design your cycles based on all the variations in every single compound. IE Sust is king for nitro retention and muscle gain out of all Test MG for MG if you run it for long enough but you wouldn't use it as a Test base for an 8 week oral cycle

 

[MrKleen73]

I don't know if I quoted nandrolone specifically but i kinda did compare it to all aas. I don't dislike var but to me it's a weaker winstrol. I prefer var nowadays due to winstrol being quite hard to keep that dry look and also being more toxic and hard on joints. The ratios doesn't seem resonable at all to me in any of the compounds to be honest and I think that's where the truth is. Is tren 5 times as powerful as test? Perhaps. Does it give 5 times the gains? Not to me it doesn't, and maybe that's cause we all have some limit to how much muscles we can put on during a certain time, else everyone would run 1gr of test 1gr of tren etc. I just find it curious that ive never personally heard anyone else than spurfy claiming its the strongest aas out there and as far as I remember he never even used test. It's all good, I always try to keep it civil but it's a forum and we do have discussions due to learning or teaching.

Yeah, I would put var in that damn near perfect "for me" category. The mildness is one of the huge factors for me. That and it is quite anabolic mg per mg regardless of ratios. For me anyway I get more out of it than Testoserone or Nandrolone when compared mg to mg. It, and TBol are my favorite orals for physique based goals. For me Var and Winny are nose to nose for results, but my joints improve on Var and get worse on winny. I think it is awesome at the end of a cycle when SHBG is high and needs to be bound up. However if focusing on strength I steer clear of winny altogether.

Lots of different factors go into how much a person will grow off of gear. AR sensitivities vary, myostatin levels, GH levels, acidity levels, digestive issues, a lot of factors many people don't even consider. It is a very individual thing.

When it comes to gear, I just try to go off getting the most for the least amount of risk and that brings Var into the picture as a top end pick for me personally. For me and future oral cycles if I do them they will likely be limited to Var, Tbol, or DBol if going for strength gains.

 

[MrKleen73]

I agree as for the anabolic/androgenic rating chart. I think it is way off on some things. I would like to know how they came up with these numbers. Anyways there should be an updated version that takes into account affinity to the andro receptor, nitrogen retention, half life ect. It would be very very useful if you could reference a detailed chart and design your cycles based on all the variations in every single compound. IE Sust is king for nitro retention and muscle gain out of all Test MG for MG if you run it for long enough but you wouldn't use it as a Test base for an 8 week oral cycle

That would be ideal but no one will ever update that for our use. It was done with one of the nonskeletal muscles in the rat, I forgot which one but they measure androgens through how it effected the sexual characteristics, might have been a measurement around the gonads, or maybe prostate if a rat has one... I can't remember now it has been so long since I read how it was set up. For the anabolic part they used how much the muscle grew. Again though the muscle was not a skeletal muscle, or weight bearing muscle and does not accrue new mass in exactly the same way as skeletal muscle. So things can be off there.

I think the ratios are really just going to give you more of an idea of what you are getting into, than what is best for the application since that was not what it was intended for. If you are going with a higher androgenic compound you can expect that you might have more complications along the way. They tend to be harder on the cardiovascular system. They will also more than likely be superior for fat loss and increasing strength. As long as the anabolic is not just very low then you are probably going to see some descent growth.

 

[FRITZBLITZZ]

That would be ideal but no one will ever update that for our use. It was done with one of the nonskeletal muscles in the rat, I forgot which one but they measure androgens through how it effected the sexual characteristics, might have been a measurement around the gonads, or maybe prostate if a rat has one... I can't remember now it has been so long since I read how it was set up. For the anabolic part they used how much the muscle grew. Again though the muscle was not a skeletal muscle, or weight bearing muscle and does not accrue new mass in exactly the same way as skeletal muscle. So things can be off there.

I think the ratios are really just going to give you more of an idea of what you are getting into, than what is best for the application since that was not what it was intended for. If you are going with a higher androgenic compound you can expect that you might have more complications along the way. They tend to be harder on the cardiovascular system. They will also more than likely be superior for fat loss and increasing strength. As long as the anabolic is not just very low then you are probably going to see some descent growth.

Yah I realize the basics of it but just imagine if you could really get an idea of exactly the potency of every compound you put in your body rather than going off your own experience or someone elses cuz we all know that each individual responds diff to each compound and their genetics play a huge part in what gains they get off X compound vs Y compound and also the MGs needed to achieve those results. If youre like me and try to use the least amount of gear to get the desired result, then a detailed chart of what does what and how long it needs to be ran ect. would be nice cuz even experienced AAS users like myself still just go off of past experience+others results+research of compound= how much and how long you use it. Honestly that is as accurate as baking a cake with an estimated amount of flour,eggs, milk and baking it for an estimated time without checking it.

 

[MrKleen73]

Yah I realize the basics of it but just imagine if you could really get an idea of exactly the potency of every compound you put in your body rather than going off your own experience or someone elses cuz we all know that each individual responds diff to each compound and their genetics play a huge part in what gains they get off X compound vs Y compound and also the MGs needed to achieve those results. If youre like me and try to use the least amount of gear to get the desired result, then a detailed chart of what does what and how long it needs to be ran ect. would be nice cuz even experienced AAS users like myself still just go off of past experience+others results+research of compound= how much and how long you use it. Honestly that is as accurate as baking a cake with an estimated amount of flour,eggs, milk and baking it for an estimated time without checking it.

Yeah it is pretty haphazard but even if they had it lined out like that they would need it to be done that way for specific types of gainers and all of that goodness. Just like with a recipe, if you cook a cake on a mountain top you need to adjust time or heat... If you like it more moist you add extra butter.

I think with the "system" we have in place now we have just a generic box cake, you know you can pick the flavor, and you know if you follow the directions you are going to come out with a decent cake regardless. However if we had what you are talking about we could make the cake closer to our idea of perfect, massaging specific aspects much better. It would be awesome, but there is not any money in researching that, and no lobbiest lobbying to get it done so it is just not lucrative to anyone in a legitimate business and unfortunately that means no profit, no interest in them doing it. BOO!!!!

But it sure would be cool!

 

[2kvette]

Yeah, opinions can get a little heated but if things can be kept civil quite often a lot of information gets dropped in the process. So I like to discuss things, but once it turns into condescension or name calling things stop being very productive.

Didn't "The Oak" have some sort of heart surgery 10 or so years ago too? Some sort of procedure, I don't think that this is the first time he was hospitalized for his heart.

I know I had a buddy of mine that ran a good amount of gear, and then jumped on HGH for about a year. He had an enlarged heart and go water in the sack around the heart. He lost over 100lbs and was told he had about 10 years tops if he wasn't able to get a transplant... Definitely PED associated stuff there.

HGH makes the organs and bones grow drastically more than the muscles.

 

[Chados]

Yeah, I would put var in that damn near perfect "for me" category. The mildness is one of the huge factors for me. That and it is quite anabolic mg per mg regardless of ratios. For me anyway I get more out of it than Testoserone or Nandrolone when compared mg to mg. It, and TBol are my favorite orals for physique based goals. For me Var and Winny are nose to nose for results, but my joints improve on Var and get worse on winny. I think it is awesome at the end of a cycle when SHBG is high and needs to be bound up. However if focusing on strength I steer clear of winny altogether.

Lots of different factors go into how much a person will grow off of gear. AR sensitivities vary, myostatin levels, GH levels, acidity levels, digestive issues, a lot of factors many people don't even consider. It is a very individual thing.

When it comes to gear, I just try to go off getting the most for the least amount of risk and that brings Var into the picture as a top end pick for me personally. For me and future oral cycles if I do them they will likely be limited to Var, Tbol, or DBol if going for strength gains.

Yeah I almost wanna stay away from orals all together. Things like primo are being used more and same with masteron if I want that winny / var cycle look. I almost don't go for bulk cycles but more recomp nowadays.

 

[Cgkone]

Did I say tren man... stop trying to pull other things in to make your point. It is seriously frustrating and misleading to others reading. Tren has a ridiculously high androgenic and anabolic effect... What the heck does that have to do with Var, or Var being compared to nandrolone which is what you were saying in the first place. Tren is far from mild.

Not much competes with Tren and definitely not anything that would ever be considered mild on your system like Var. As far as winstrol goes, it has almost exactly the same effects regarding sexual characteristics, growth, and what not as Var, just has worse sides like being horrible for your connective tissue... quite the opposite of Var. Sorry but unless female 25mg of Winny isn't going to show a lot of growth, and NOTHING over what you would get from Var.

As far as androgenic/anabolic ratios, they are certainly not perfect, and are not based in measuring skeletal muscle so there is definitely room for adjusting but the reality is that most do not run Anavar as high as they do testosterone or nandrolone when bulking nor do they often eat in as big of a surplus while on it. If they did they would be surprised at the gains. Have you ever run Var @ 100 a day to compare with a 700mg test or nandrolone a week run while focusing on mass gains specifically? Now 700mg tren a week forget about it, yeah that would beat Var for sure, but that isn't the same thing as comparing it to nandrolone.

To be honest I thought spurfy said var was better than ALL drugs for bulding muscle.
I need to go re-read the thread.

 

[Nac]

To be honest I thought spurfy said var was better than ALL drugs for bulding muscle.
I need to go re-read the thread.

Thats correct, he did.

 

[Cgkone]

Kleen
All do respect the dude your saying is spot on said Anavar smokes all other AAS.

 

[Spurfy]

To be honest I thought spurfy said var was better than ALL drugs for bulding muscle.
I need to go re-read the thread.

I stand by this statement. On a mg/mg basis, oxandrolone is the most anabolic of all the AAS. The problem is that most oxandrolone users' dosages fall well-short of an anabolically equivalent dose of an alternate AAS.

So if Tren is 5X that of T, and Oxandrolone is (on average) 6X that of T (while being only 3% less bio-available), then doses of oxandrolone need to be about 17% lower than those of Tren to reach anabolic equivalency.

Couple this with:

1. The fact that, apparently, a very large amount of what is sold as oxandrolone is either not oxandrolone or highly underdosed

and

2. Total weight gain on cycle is almost never precisely quantified as to what exactly is water, muscle, fat and glycogen

and

3. AAS users mistakenly think oxandrolone is a "finishing" drug and run it for short periods of time at the end of a cycle

and

4. Oxandrolone users run it during the daytime, which creates problems in AR/GR cross-talk -- causing loss of appetite, fatigue, etc, which directly sabotages efforts at muscle building. (Of course you're going to build more muscle on tren if you're eating more calories than on an equipotent dose of Var)

So we end up with people horribly overestimating the muscle building effects of tren, using oxandrolone improperly (should be run for entire cycle and taken as a single dose in the evening, around 6:00 PM, *not in the morning*), using bunk/under-dosed product, and then seeing "only" 5-10 lbs in weight gain with oxandrolone vs. 20 or more with tren, and then this misconception persists about oxandrolone being "weak" especially when compared to trenbolone.

Take two guys, put one on 500 mg/week Tren (and nothing else) and the other on 500 mg/week oxandrolone (and nothing else). All other things being equal, the guy on Var will build more muscle as measured via muscle biopsy, not "Brah, I weigh 220 now. Dem gainzzzz!"

Oxandrolone appears to be unique among AAS in that it actually stimulates the growth of new myocytes, an effect shared with rHGH, and not just hypertrophy of existing cells. This is why oxandrolone produces lean, "dense" gains -- total muscle *size* changes less than with tren or T, but actual muscle *mass* gains are greater due to a denser packing of myocytes.

Oxandrolone also shifts cross-talk between AR/GR in a manner that is highly favorable to anabolism in muscle tissue with simultaneous catabolism of adipose tissue. This means that total fat loss must be taken into consideration when looking at weight gained during a var cycle as well.

Pharmacology and the scientific method don't care about your experience with one versus the other, what you think, how you feel, or that one thing "should be" a particular way -- oxandrolone is still the most powerful anabolic drug available right now, and whether this fact is believed or not changes nothing.

 

[solidsnake]

Spurfy I seem to remember you posting something about the synergy between var caffeine and creatine. Can you remind us all about that?

 

[Spurfy]

Spurfy I seem to remember you posting something about the synergy between var caffeine and creatine. Can you remind us all about that?

Oxandrolone with creatine and caffeine has to do with the complex interrelationship between cAMP and ATP, which is really too high level to adequately discuss here.

Needless to say, these three compounds get along very well.

 

[Nac]

2. Total weight gain on cycle is almost never precisely quantified as to what exactly is water, muscle, fat and glycogen

...

All other things being equal, the guy on Var will build more muscle as measured via muscle biopsy, not "Brah, I weigh 220 now. Dem gainzzzz!"

Great post but these, these...I love you

 

[2kvette]

Oxandrolone with creatine and caffeine has to do with the complex interrelationship between cAMP and ATP, which is really too high level to adequately discuss here.

Needless to say, these three compounds get along very well.

Whatt??? I thought it was p450 inhibition???? Caffeine free's adenosine up for cAMP/ATP, i get that, but as far as I read it was just p450 inhibition by caffeine that increases oxandrolones serum levels.

 

[Spurfy]

Whatt??? I thought it was p450 inhibition???? Caffeine free's adenosine up for cAMP/ATP, i get that, but as far as I read it was just p450 inhibition by caffeine that increases oxandrolones serum levels.

Oxandrolone is metabolized almost entirely in the kidneys -- P450 in this instance is gastric/liver-specific and contributes little or nothing to oxandrolone's metabolism. And oxandrolone is 97% orally bioavailable anyway, that right there tells you the (first-pass) P450 pathway contributes, at most, 3% to its metabolism.

The simplest explanation I will give right now is that, basically, creatine is able to increase oxandrolone's ability to induce the growth of new myocytes, and caffeine's role in affecting ATP/cAMP helps speed this process along.

 

[Polly1]

Images after 6 weeks of osta in the next post

 

[Polly1]

 

[Polly1]

 

[Polly1]

Now imagine what 4-6 weeks of dbol,winny or drol will do to the liver!

 

[Spurfy]

Now imagine what 4-6 weeks of dbol,winny or drol will do to the liver!

Polly needs to stick to things that don't involve trying to understand or discuss concepts of toxicology.

You can't compare some piece of garbage research chemical (Ostarine) sold by non-FDA licensed companies, contaminated with who-knows-what, with drugs that have had decades of human and safety testing and have been shown over and over to be reasonably safe to use.

Eat some crackers and chill.

 

[Cgkone]

Polly needs to stick to things that don't involve trying to understand or discuss concepts of toxicology.

You can't compare some piece of garbage research chemical (Ostarine) sold by non-FDA licensed companies, contaminated with who-knows-what, with drugs that have had decades of human and safety testing and have been shown over and over to be reasonably safe to use.

Eat some crackers and chill.

Yeah because the government knows what's best
Hahaha
Spurfy needs to stick to things he knows best
Online gaming
Your moms panties
And balls in your mouth bro.
That's right brah you keep nutts all up in your mouth punk.

Your a fake a fraud and a part time broad.
Nobody thinks your smart.
We all think your a *****.
Because that's what you are.
You and anavar can go suck a fat one

 

[Polly1]

Polly needs to stick to things that don't involve trying to understand or discuss concepts of toxicology.

You can't compare some piece of garbage research chemical (Ostarine) sold by non-FDA licensed companies, contaminated with who-knows-what, with drugs that have had decades of human and safety testing and have been shown over and over to be reasonably safe to use.

Eat some crackers and chill.

Are you saying that 20mg ostarine is way more toxic than 50mg-100mg winny,drol or dbol?

 

[Spurfy]

Are you saying that 20mg ostarine is way more toxic than 50mg-100mg winny,drol or dbol?

I'm saying that your lab tests are worthless for determining anything but how hard *your* liver has to work to break down Ostarine. No other extrapolations can be drawn, especially given your N=1 population.

 

[Spurfy]

Nobody thinks your smart.

It's "you're", not "your."

"Your" is a possessive pronoun, denoting ownership of something, while "you're" is a contraction of the words "you" and "are."

You should have learned this distinction in the third grade and I'm (it means the same as, "I am") truly sorry that the American educational system has clearly failed you so horribly.

 

[Polly1]

Im geting new bloods and a scan of the liver next week,will post pics again.

 

[Cgkone]

It's "you're", not "your" -- you should have learned this in third grade.

I'm (it means the same as, "I am") truly sorry that the American educational system has failed you so horribly.

Damn you got me....you can write better.
You know who else liked English in 3rd grade......the chicks.

 

[Spurfy]

Im geting new bloods and a scan of the liver next week,will post pics again.

Still meaningless data. Interesting, but meaningless nevertheless.

 

[Cgkone]

It's "you're", not "your."

"Your" is a possessive pronoun, denoting ownership of something, while "you're" is a contraction of the words "you" and "are."

You should have learned this distinction in the third grade and I'm (it means the same as, "I am") truly sorry that the American educational system has clearly failed you so horribly.

That makes sense about the anavar..
You low dose that stuff so your clit don't get bigger.
I understand now......CHICK!!

 

[Spurfy]

Damn you got me....you can write better.
You know who else liked English in 3rd grade......the chicks.

I find it odd and disconcerting that you immediately think of eight-year old girls when someone corrects your spelling...

 

[Cgkone]

I find it odd and disconcerting that you immediately think of eight-year old girls when someone corrects your spelling...

Because men don't care how other men spell only chicks do that

 

[Spurfy]

Because men don't care how other men spell only chicks do that

So you consider eight-year old girls, "chicks?"

 

[Cgkone]

So you consider eight-year old girls "chicks?"

I consider you a chick

 

[Cgkone]

Still meaningless data. Interesting, but meaningless nevertheless.

How is it meaningless?

 

[Spurfy]

How is it meaningless?

N=1 with multiple confounds is always statistically meaningless.

 

[Cgkone]

N=1 with multiple confounds is always statistically meaningless.

It may say something different from your point.
So therefore its ALLWAYS meaningless.

 

[Cgkone]

But I will be trying LGD at 30mg ED
I think I will try VAR a t high dose too.
Just to see if I get anything out of it

 

[wrugg08]

But I will be trying LGD at 30mg ED
I think I will try VAR a t high dose too.
Just to see if I get anything out of it

I ran legit lgd at 25mg every day for 30 days and grew like I was on superdrol. Packed on lean muscle like it was my job. Only sides it had, tanked my good hdl. Find a good source of GW which will balance the side effects of the lgd

 

[2kvette]

N=1 with multiple confounds is always statistically meaningless.

I was just calculating some stuff from the oxandrolone study. Some NNT and NNH, but no ADR's reported so no NNH. Also, I know there is no cyp metabolism on first pass, second pass im not sure, but some odd blood esterase blood activity on the lactone. It appears to be excreted as about 1/3 unchanged drug. Idk about conjugates or gluccoronides.

 

[Spurfy]

I was just calculating some stuff from the oxandrolone study. Some NNT and NNH, but no ADR's reported so no NNH. Also, I know there is no cyp metabolism on first pass, second pass im not sure, but some odd blood esterase blood activity on the lactone. It appears to be excreted as about 1/3 unchanged drug. Idk about conjugates or gluccoronides.

Interesting. There may be something to the caffeine/oxandrolone metabolism hypothesis after all...

I found very little on the specific pharmacokinetics of oxandrolone, so I've had to just make my best educated guess.

 

[Renew1]

I have noticed a very synergistic effect between steroids (including Anavar) and caffeine, and had just always assumed it to be only a very strong preworkout effect. Very interesting.
Laboratório de Análises de Dopagem, IDP, Lisboa, Portugal. B. Salema, J. Ruivo, X. de la Torre, M. Sekera, L. Horta. Oxandrolone excretion: effect of caffeine dosing. Published: www.adop.pt.

 

[justhere4comm]

I knew it. Coffee is anabolic and Anavar just enhances that... Makes a giant pot of coffee.

:afro:

 

[210LBS]

I have noticed a very synergistic effect between steroids (including Anavar) and caffeine, and had just always assumed it to be only a very strong preworkout effect. Very interesting.
Laboratório de Análises de Dopagem, IDP, Lisboa, Portugal. B. Salema, J. Ruivo, X. de la Torre, M. Sekera, L. Horta. Oxandrolone excretion: effect of caffeine dosing. Published: www.adop.pt.

You can go that route if you have no BP issues and you keep a close eye on your BP. Obviously the kind of AAS and amount of caffeine we are talking about makes a difference.

 

[Renew1]

You can go that route if you have no BP issues and you keep a close eye on your BP. Obviously the kind of AAS and amount of caffeine we are talking about makes a difference.

Absolutely. I know that can be an issue for different people, and different circumstances. For instance, for me....I have to be careful with sweat. I'm a profuse sweater anyway, so.... ingesting a good bit of caffeine, maybe stuck out on a job in the tropical heat.....I have to be very careful not to get dehydrated. It can sometimes be a challenge to chug enough fluid to stay ahead of the curve.