Liver values were much better a month later but still high. Probably 2-3 months to be completely in range. I don’t experiment with long or high dosed methyls now and haven’t had values anywhere near that for 2 years since.
Nothing wrong with being cautious.
I could only imagine what my peeps values have been since taking 10g of Tylenol daily. Probably just as bad or worse. Let me do some research..
Any support
Were you taking any liver support at all at the time?
That is pretty good considering that SERMS are also liver toxic. Not to the same degree as a methylated steriod but prescription SERMs are also liver toxic.
Tylonal is sooo liver toxic it there was push to make it prescription only. Of course this would kill all the Tylonal, Nitequill and every other company that includes accedomenaphin so all those companies lobbied against this action. But my limited knowledge of long term use of both Tylonal and Dbol, I think you could take 50mg of Dbol 5on 2off and be better off than 100mg Tylonal with same dosing and I would argue that if anyone disagrees.
I think one of the problems is that people are actually scared of "short" cycles, so people will run hdrol @ 150mgs for 10-12 weeks, or msten @ 30 or 40mgs for 8-10 weeks because if the cycle is too "short" they won't get the gains they wanted or they won't be able to keep any of the gains in PCT. I always thought a "short" cycle was like 2 or 3 weeks... like SD, M1T, boladrol, etc. But apparently a lot of people think 5, 6, and 7 weeks is a short cycle and not worth the time. Call me a pu$$y... I'll stick to 4-6 weeks.
Man srs Im totally on board for the "shorter" cycles for myself, too. Id much rather run NPP for 8wks than deca for 16+. And yeah "short/long" is obviously merely relative.
It's true. Some people really like to test the length limit of oral cycles. To each their own though. But I swear there was a thread maybe a few months back where someone said they wanted to start cruising on either Msten or DMZ. Usually I shrug a lot of it off as trolling, but you never know....
And just to be clear these (18+) individuals were on 20mg of var daily for over a year, correct?
Imagine 10 GRAMS of Tylenol daily + heavy whiskey abuse 3-7 days a week. For years on end. That’s probably the equivalent to 250mg DBOL a day or maybe way more than that. The liver is tough
I am aware of that. I knew exactly what I was doing. You guys know I’m not new to this and I always recommend moderation and due caution. I knew I was pushing the limits but I wanted to see what a high dose of a reportedly mild methyl would do in terms of damage and results. Obviously the damage was significant and the gains were nothing spectacular. I started at 80 mg for 2 weeks and increased 20 mg every 2 weeks until 120 mg then rode it out at that dose. I was on a full dose of Arimacare Pro, 750 mg TUDCA, and a bunch of additional solo stuff like Spirulina and coq10.
When people know what they're doing, and decide to push it anyway...that's totally their choice.
Agreed. That’s why I rarely talk about that experiment. But thats specifically what this thread is about and the general tone is that toxicity of orals is overrated. Here’s proof that if you don’t do everything right you can do some serious damage to your health.
No no, under 18 were never on more than 10 split twice a day. The ones under 50kg We’re on 5mg split twice a day. Over 18 I’ve seen it written up to 25mg a day for men. I’ve seen winstrol and anadrol written too. Deca as well.
Forgot to add, clinical trials show it is very safe up to two years continued with no break. No liver problems. This is in children btw. I have heard of it being taken for five years straight.
Yes and no, what you posted really goes along with the point of the thread actually. Look at your horribly high levels off of an abusive dose. Just that looks scary but then you said your liver values were almost fully recovered a month later even with SERMS being liver toxic as well. So you were still challenging the liver and it almost fully recovered in 30 days. Goes to show that what PA is stating is likely fact. Also apparently even at those levels you were not bad enough to be jaundice or anything. I think the key there is the TUDCA keeping the bile ducts open, or maybe you could have. Not sure what levels typically are when someone is jaundice.
I don’t recall if I said that I was fully recovered after PCT, but it was an error if I did. I was much improved but still well out of range. Here it is:
No you had just said almost fully recovered, and considering where you came from I would agree. Relatively speaking dropping 300 points out of 400 is almost fully recovered even though not nearly in range. Still though 3-4 months to a full recovery isn't bad and I doubt that it took that long for the enzymes considering they dropped 300 in a month dropping another 60-75 shouldn't take too much longer, but the cholesterol would more than likely take that long to correct. Even more reason for people to take reasonable breaks between cycles.
Keep in mind that I freaked out when I saw the post Cycle results and went overboard on a ton more Support supps and cleaned up my diet a lot. Lol
Completely agree.
Exxxxactly
Your total bilirubin only ever got to 1.7 and after PCT was down to 0.4 - jaundice typically occurs around 3.0.
I'm betting you used tamoxifen during your PCT. Tamoxifen is liver toxic.
And this was a very heavy cycle
Nope. Clomid. 50/50/25/25/12.5/12.5
Not really, in regards to compounds. A single(supposedly mild) methylated oral stacked with 3 non-methyls. Dosage and duration of the methyl were definitely excessive though. I’d like to see bloodwork on something like these quad stacked methylated blend ph’s at full dose for 6-8 weeks with adequate cycle support.
I’ve had bloods from other single methyl cycles where liver values and cholesterol levels stayed in range or were barely elevated. Those were cycles at more reasonable dosages and duration. I just figured this particular example fit the theme of this thread the best. I think a key takeaway should be that without bloodwork you really have no idea how much damage you are doing. Going by “feel” is deceptive.
What do you usually feel? What are the noticible side effects?
This is true, elevated transaminases can mean the liver is just making more protein or is damaged. CRP, IL-1,IL-6,TNF-a, albumin, and globulins are needed to differentiate this. Like the burn kids, they experience liver stress, and markers go up on oxandrolone but so do the albumin. So the increase in ALT and AST they experience is a result of improved liver function from oxandrolone upregulating their serum protein production, as the control groups have increases as well but experiencing plummeting serum proteins.
What makes you say the dose and duration were excessive?
And the strange part is that in studies it increased, not decreased testosterone. I find this hard to believe though, perhaps it was because most patients were young children. Dunno
Finally, a peer!
That's because it has virtually no androgenic activity. It's almost purely anabolic. This is why they can give it to little girls who are burn victims without any virilization. Only at high doses (over 10-20 mg/day) does it begin to significantly function as a suppressive androgen at the level of the hypothalamus. Still, as a DHT-derivative it elevates free testosterone while antagonizing E2, as all DHT-based compounds do. This alone causes increased hypothalamic GNRH release. This is also why compounds like Proviron are not suppressive except at very high doses and actually increase fertility.
I can’t agree enough
No it doesn't. One because even if this is true (the ratios) it's not tested on humans and/or it doesn't bind to the receptors as other steroids. Second , anabolic ratio is by no means as strong as androgenic when it comes to muscle building. You can give me any anavar out there wether it's pharmacy or underground and I swear on everything I own that i won't build the same amount of muscles.
Serious question: Do you actually think you know what you're talking about?
Yes because compared to you ive used tren. If I remember correctly you haven't even used test. I'm not gonna argue with you but you're talking about a compound like you wanna sell it. Use it and be happy but stop with the false information so people start spending a ton of money realizing they are on the weakest aas created for man. It's a good product , it's safe etc but it's not a 20 lbs gainer.
I think your plan not to argue with me is a smart one.
