I'm pretty sure most doctors do encourage/advise their patients to exercise and eat well, but some people just won't do it, or won't stick to it. What should a doctor do in that situation? Not prescribe the medication to their patient until they promise to exercise and eat well? I agree that there are many times when doctors are too quick to prescribe medications in certain situations though.
The issue is, you cannot force a change upon someone. You have a duty of care to that person, and with that it means doing what you can to make life as easy as possible for them. To not exercise duty of care means negligence. Take this scenario: a type II diabetic sees a physician, the physician does not write a script, but instead instructs them to exercise AND get their nutrition in check. The patient attempts this for a few weeks but then falls into the same habits and as a result, loses a limb and goes blind. They evaluate the doctors treatment and see that he failed to provide a duty of care, resulting in the patients injury.
Agreed.
Except Kratom is banned in plenty of places around the world - even in those with very good public health care programs. I pay $5 for any prescription medication and $15 per Dr visit, so this $$ strategy doesn't pan out in their favour by restricting these items that cost the govt money (they subsidize medical care).
You're really grasping for straws with this..
adding further to this-
More people die from prescription medication because more people use prescription medication and because prescription medication covers ALL prescription medications vs 2 street drugs. If you say i'm grasping at straws, I have no idea what that is. I don't think anyone is arguing that prescription medication is safe to use, all come with associated risks and potential abuse potential depending on the drug, but the fact remains that we know more about them because of the processes they must go through before approval, and the studies that must take place after full scale release.
Kratom was never illegal in the US that I'm aware of, until a few states started to regulate it recently. It's been sold on the net since the 90's though, and I've never seen any stories of fatal acute toxicity. Have you? Please post links if so, but spare me any hard luck stories involving multi-drug abusing 35 year old addicts still living at their mom's house. (they'll find a way to clock out using anything at some point, and no telling which of their suicidal habits contributed most to their demise)
Duh.
It needed an NDI and was never granted one. Without one, it is not legal to sell as a dietary ingredient. People used 'loopholes' to continue to sell it, but that doesn't make it legal.Kratom was never illegal in the US that I'm aware of, until a few states started to regulate it recently. It's been sold on the net since the 90's though, and I've never seen any stories of fatal acute toxicity. Have you? Please post links if so, but spare me any hard luck stories involving multi-drug abusing 35 year old addicts still living at their mom's house. (they'll find a way to clock out using anything at some point, and no telling which of their suicidal habits contributed most to their demise)
Anyway, it's just another obscure botanical that's probably been used by man and animal for centuries. In fact, it's likely been growing on this planet since before humanoids could build a fire. It's obviously "passed the test" of time and needs no NDA because it's not a drug much less a 'designer drug'. It's an endogenous life form, and can't be lawfully owned or realistically legislated by any corp.
But if it's becoming a problem somehow, statutes can be passed of course, to regulate it's commercial availability and salvage market share for the top dawg. Just like Smith said, that's the bottom line and the bottom line never changes. The greed of small time retailers gets trumped when they underestimate the greed of rich/well connected pharm CEOs, because money talks and you don't call the shots unless you're on top already.
Still waiting for ONE example of someone dying from Kratom (and only Kratom). Still waiting to hear from you on that ONE addict that has SUCH a problem, he's committing crimes to support his habit. Still waiting to hear from ONE ER Dr. who's so swamped with "Kratom overdoses", he won't know what to do next.
Kratom is no more addictive than coffee? Where is your evidence to support that - moreover, where is your evidence to support the supposition that a coffee addiction is as, or more harmful than Kratom addiction given Kratoms dependancy AND potential toxicity issues? The amount of coffee needed to induce issue is multitudes lower than that of Kratom.
Lmao
Kratom was never illegal in the US that I'm aware of, until a few states started to regulate it recently. It's been sold on the net since the 90's though, and I've never seen any stories of fatal acute toxicity. Have you? Please post links if so, but spare me any hard luck stories involving multi-drug abusing 35 year old addicts still living at their mom's house. (they'll find a way to clock out using anything at some point, and no telling which of their suicidal habits contributed most to their demise)
Anyway, it's just another obscure botanical that's probably been used by man and animal for centuries. In fact, it's likely been growing on this planet since before humanoids could build a fire. It's obviously "passed the test" of time and needs no NDA because it's not a drug much less a 'designer drug'. It's an endogenous life form, and can't be lawfully owned or realistically legislated by any corp.
But if it's becoming a problem somehow, statutes can be passed of course, to regulate it's commercial availability and salvage market share for the top dawg. Just like Smith said, that's the bottom line and the bottom line never changes. The greed of small time retailers gets trumped when they underestimate the greed of rich/well connected pharm CEOs, because money talks and you don't call the shots unless you're on top already.
It was always legal to buy and sell, at least in the US. Even using your NDI argument it would be quite legal so long as it was not marketed with the intent of supplemental use. Nevertheless, as I already pointed out, it's self-affirmed GRAS status speaks for itself (unless you've found all those death reports I asked you to compile) because it's been sold in the "marketplace", used, and reported on by consumers since long before '94. That's probably why they finally just scheduled it (basically as a king's X loophole around their own law) to get rid of it for now while they come up with a better long-term justification.
I thought you were a cop. When did you switch to pre-law? lol
I don't sell Kratom so I don't need an NDI. I also don't need an NDI to have the common sense to see people in SE Asia have been using it safely for hundreds of years. Apparently, that escapes your small mind.
The issue, from what I've read across multiple FDA outlets, is that the FDA is not seeing it as GRAS but rather as a brand new ingredient. As such, it has to get an NDI which would prove through clinical trials it is safe and does not pose a threat to consumers.
Mixelflick, chill. You are obviously emotionally bound to this argument and have a vested interest if you are calling people stupid over them not agreeing. Whatever anyone on this board thinks will make no difference in the laws the govt puts in place and getting emotional clouds objective thinking.
Interesting.
Here is the thing - I'm not responsible for it needing an NDI, and apparently it does need one. You can argue black and blue but the FDA has stated it needs one. It is classified as an NDI, and as such requires an NDI. It might have had a record of use in SE Asia, but US law requires it needed to be marketed as a dietary ingredient within the US before 1994 to be excluded as an NDI. Again, I am not personally responsible for scheduling Kratom or requiring an NDI for it.
Your completely wrong about GHB having no medical value...
I will look into it...but I would bet all of those things are already better accomplished by other drugs. Just like how people say marijuana is good for pain management but it really is not, as the studies suggest it does little for actual pain, may cause a lack of concentration on pain, and is much less effective than alternatives. So, no medicinal value may be the wrong term.
hey pal. Run your mouth like this once more and you're gone. Am I clear?
What I don't understand is how SNS gets away with selling Phenibut XT, but I guess you got a NDI on that huh?
In fact I'd wager it's far easier to OD on Phenibut than Kratom, and if either of the two should require an NDI, well... it ain't Kratom. But that's neither here nor there.
You say it doesn't fly in court, but one can run an on-line search and find 100s of RC companies that testify otherwise. Selling unregulated chemicals is completely legal. That's what "unregulated" means. If an RC company clearly indicates 'not for human consumption' on the label then they have displayed no intent to defraud or market as food. There's nothing illegal about that and that's not a loophole as you say, it's just another chemical and your house is probably filled with chemicals already. Go look under the sink, or in your laundry room, there are shelves full of chemicals, are there not? That's modern life.
The legality of phenibut has no bearing on this discussion of Kratom and bringing this in to question does not strengthen the argument on Kratom, either.What I don't understand is how SNS gets away with selling Phenibut XT, but I guess you got a NDI on that huh?
Don't get me wrong, Phenibut should be legal to sell (at least without intent) but it doesn't exactly grow on trees you know!
What concerns me is that here you are with the rest of the SNS boyz, jumping in on the free bum rush against some obscure botanical life form, but you're either being insincere or you just don't know any better. I honestly don't care either way because that's your business, friend, but I'd be more careful throwing stones in a glass house. Ya never know when you'll be on the wrong end of that karmic boomerang.
The bottom line is that no company can hope to survive if the industry doesn't stand together on stuff like this.
https://www.dea.gov/pubs/pressrel/pr072204.html
In short, if it is controlled then even this disclaimer won't fly.
Source: http://www.steroidlaw.com/2005/04/chemicals-for-research-purposes-only/
1,4-B isn't scheduled. Do some more research. I'm fairly confident you could find it on-line right now if you like, but it can't be sold with intent for consumption. If you knew more about the chem industry you'd understand that huge amounts of 1,4 and 1,3 are used in all kinds of stuff. I don't see those ever being scheduled, it's not industrially practical, but they can crack down on sham advertising. You can put a chemical in a bottle and sell it as is with no intent, labeled with 'not for consumption', but if you flavor a household clearer then hell yeah an argument can be made it's a sham application! Flavors are meant to be tasted. These links aren't even pertinent to this discussion, and had the flavors not been added they'd probably still be selling it.
Except, when they do that and then have sales reps on bodybuilding forums, their intent is made clear.
Like I said, I'm not talking about shams and scams, but the way you're clinging to these inapplicable examples is starting to implicate you have ulterior motives. Nevertheless, as I reminded another one of your reps, SNS would probably be wise to avoid throwing any NDI stones. Bad karma, bro.
I don't think it should be schedule 1.
Who's throwing NDI stones? We are simply explaining the other side of the coin which apparently warrants abuse from other members of the forum. The NDI card is what the FDA is using/ used (although the DEA has the power to grant something schedule one under emergency powers), but yet somehow we are to blame for saying it needs one? We are relaying information readily available on the internet. If they say it needed an NDI, then it is what it is.
Agreed. I use it daily. I personally haven't had withdrawals from it. But it is pretty addicting. Not as much as most others but its still there.
have you actually stopped using it to experience withdrawal?
Yeah. I'll stop for a few days at a time. I used to take opiates so I know what withdrawals feel like. Never had them from kratom and I take 15-30g a day on average.
Same here.
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