Is is possible to make prostan an injectible?

[poopypants]

wow when i asked for Dr D to come over here and have a looksy i wasnt expecing to have an all out chemistry lesson! this is awesome though and its always better when we have 2 chemists (klaus) discussing a compound and its possibilities. all this talk has made me even more excited. so am i correct in under sanding that a chem wharehouse would be sending a prostan ace version and is that the exact same compound found in the current prostan? or would there be required alterations to make it into of of the discussed variables (oral, IM, transD). well this is awesome and i wish i had a little more chemistry knowledge and the means to perform some of these tests. im currently waitng thogh for my bottle of prostan and will be expieramenting with the fina method to strip the fillers and see what kind of yeild i recieve (if any is lost in the process). i was gonna run an expeiramental trans with it afterwards and see if it was effective whatsover but i may hold off until we find out if absorbtion and metabolization would even be effective via transdermal. am i wrong in thinking that the absorbtion transdermally is dependant on the added transderm ingredients? meaning that it just has a problem metabolizing? is this cause something happend through the ingestion route that changes the compound into an active form? sorry if i dont sound like i know what im talking about cause i dont im only guessing/speculating.

 

[poopypants]

nice thanks for the feed back, and ill def keep in mind the added water for when i strip the fillers. i also read a homebrew version (in the homebrew or transderm section cant remember but it was titled making transderm from 4-AD caps) which told a different method used to strip the fillers, now im pretty sure i allready know the answer but im wondering what would be the prefered methoed between the 2? ill look up the other and post it too.

 

[poopypants]

here it is

I desolved my capped 4ad in acetone (e.g. most nail polish removers) then I filtered it through coffee filters which got rid of all the fillers and crap that was capped with it. The acetone acts as a solvent desolving the 4ad or something along those lines. I then left the filtered acetone to evaporate, I also speeded up this prosess by lightly heating it. I emphasise lightly as acetone is flamable. You should be left with crystals which is your pure 4ad. I added this to a nor transdermal and bang I was good to go. I also had a nice high end product, I used about 2g of 4ad in caps and got about 1.5-1.8g of 4ad. It could of been more if I didnt spill a little here and there lol.

i would think the more refined fina method would prob be better but for the sake of cost would it be worth it to try it in this manner? or is it better off just using the fina?

 

[DR.D]

Klaus is correct. A ketal can be hydrolyzed in human metabolism. He was using the term acetal which was throwing me off. I would like to see a longer acting ester of this though. The acetate may not be very soluble, and this compound is weak enough that large amounts of oil would need to be injected daily if that's the case.

 

[jonny21]

Klaus is correct. A ketal can be hydrolyzed in human metabolism. He was using the term acetal which was throwing me off. I would like to see a longer acting ester of this though. The acetate may not be very soluble, and this compound is weak enough that large amounts of oil would need to be injected daily if that's the case.

Honestly though Dr. D & Klaus, do you think the possible increased potency merits the amount of effort involved?
I guess I am too simple minded but I would figure just sucking down some grapefruit juice an hour before and taking the prostanazol orally with some oil would give similar results.
Grapefruit juice usually helps with drugs that have low oral bioavailability.
Now if you are talking attaching long esters to make it possible to inject EOD or so, that's a different story

 

[Grunt76]

I'm with jonny21. I just think prostanozol is underdosed and that paying through the nose for 60 caps when 10 caps a day is a doable dosage is absolutely insane. For those of us who like to stay legal, that is. I'm just trying to figure out what to order when I get my half-pound of prostanozol powder. Which I guess I have even though this discussion is very interesting from a theoretical point of view. For me, that is. JMO.

 

[Grunt76]

Short. I think I'mma try pinning this stuff as is. You're kinda saying a bottle of 60 x 25mg = 1500mg would last ~4 weeks. That's GREAT 'cause 50mg ED orally don't do squat.

EDIT: 12 chinese chemists will shortly receive a request for quote on this. If this gives no results, well, then, I'll just have to scrounge every supplement store for the stuff in bottles and convert it myself. :blink:

 

[DR.D]

"... Some time ago, they abandoned ketal and assumed acetal to include any diether of geminal diols. Later though, they reinstated ketal, but made it a subclass of acetal ..."

Klaus,
Your making me feel old! I think I remember that now, but I'm not sure!! (lol) If I have time next month, I may prep a hex or prop ester of this, just for kicks. It's like everyone has said though, the stuff is weak. I like the hardness it gives, but it may be too weak to be worth pursuing. However, if the oral BA is only 15% as you have guessed, it may be more potent that I has originally assumed by IM route. The lymphatic absorbtion with oral delivery of the ether makes me wonder if that number is higher though.

 

[Grunt76]

Hm... One chem house is asking wether or not I will need more than 10kg a month.

I dunno, that's 300,000 mg ED. Pretty high. I'll reply "no" I guess.

 

[scipio]

why can't I see the third page.

An inj prost with ester (like cyp) would be awesome.

 

[jonny21]

why can't I see the third page.

An inj prost with ester (like cyp) would be awesome.

This is the third page

 

[keninishna]

Can you do the same to the hormone in finigenx? That would be cool legal alternative to injectable tren. Estra-4,9-diene-3,17-dione I'm assuming the dione part would have to go and be replaced by an acetate or a cypionate?

 

[Magickk]

LMFAO!! I can't believe you fuckin noobs are in here talking about SNORTING PROSTANOZOL!!!!!! :toofunny: Get out of the gym and into the fucking chair bro's! You've got some psychological **** goin on if you're serious thinking about snorting prostanozol... hahhahaaha

 

[Grunt76]

Aren't you the guy who has to exercise restraint to not go out and throw people's cars around?

 

[Magickk]

Aren't you the guy who has to exercise restraint to not go out and throw people's cars around?

:ntome:

 

[Magickk]

WOW GUYS!!! Check this out!!! I just got back from the gym and look at these results!!!!

Pre-Gym
Waist.....34"
Arms......16.5"
Chest.....47"
Quads....21"
Calves....15"
BF%......13%

Bench....275x4
Squat....405x4
Dead.....450x4

Post-Gym
Waist.....32"
Arms......18"
Chest.....51.5"
Quads....24"
Calves....17"
BF%......8%

Bench....315x4
Squat....495x4
Dead.....575x4

The secret you ask??! I PLUGGED 75MG OF PROSTANOZOL!!! That's right folks!!! Stick 3 prostanozol pills in your butt and you, too, can experience the ultimate in this wonderful world of steroid bioavailability!!!

Check out my progress in 1 day!!!

Before

After

WOW!!!!! My muscles are super hard and I rule!!! I walked outside of the gym, and I was so super-pumped that a semi truck hit me while going at 60mph and I just fucking stood there stone cold, then I popped a massive boner from the test boost and the semi disappeared!!! WOW!

 

[Grunt76]

You should SNORT it, it's even better, I SWEAR.

 

[Grunt76]

While being on the topic of "alternative administration routes"...

If I remember correctly, intranasal absorption will not be high unless a carrier is used (such as a cyclodextrin). Even with a carrier, the nasal cavity can only absorb so much at a time. When foreign particles enter the cavity, mucous is secreted to remove the particles. Sneezing, red eyes, and a runny nose typically follow. This will further lower absportion. Blood levels of steroids administered in this manner will rise and drop sharpy over a short period of time (~1.5 hours). The whole idea of injection is to cause constant blood levels of the hormone. Therefore, snorting is not very effective.

How would you guesstimate its bioavailability when administrated nasally VS orally? Is there a way to guesstimate this, Klaus? The pinning idea seems just great although much more suited to an ester.

A fina kit is required any which way, so that's obviously step 1.

 

[Grunt76]

FOUND A SUPPLIER!!!

Prostanozol = 3500 $ per kg
Prostanozol 17b-ester = 4000 $ per kg

Let's gang up and order a kg for the bunch of us, then have them split it in a bunch of 50g, 100g separate shipments.

 

[E-Swift25]

What exactly is 17b ester? At any rate, why don't someone with time and cash buy it and resell it at a reasonable price. I don't know if I trust myself to convert powder to injectibles.

 

[Grunt76]

It's soooo easy man. It goes something like:

1. Put the powder and oil inside a vial
2. Filter this mixture with a whatman filter and syringe
3. Inject the newly-filtered mixture into an empty, sealed vial
4. Bake at... 225°F? For 45 minutes or so. Bake twice if you prefer.
5. Cool down
6. Pin it dude

A 6-year-old can do this.

 

[Magickk]

If someone will buy me the powder I will convert it, inject it, and keep a log of my progress if I can get some educated guidance / opinions

 

[E-Swift25]

That's mighty big of you. lol

 

[poopypants]

you can count me in for 50g or $175 bro

 

[bigpetefox]

17b ester? Sounds like it's methylated, which would make it Winstrol.. :think:

 

[Grunt76]

Well it's Prostanozol acetate, or propionate, etc. The 17b is only for the chemist to know exactly where to put the ester. It has no methyl.

I might be wrong, but looking at this image kindly provided by Klaus, there is only an attachment at the 17b position. How the heck do they count the carbons anyways? Well they must know what they are doing, right?

Wisntrol has a 17a (Methyl, even though those lines don't say methyl to me) and a 17b (OH). Prostanozol has something at the 17b position and nothing where Winstrol has a methyl.

How the heck they can put 1 or 2 links at the 17th carbon without upsetting the whole structure is beyond me, so my understanding of this drawing is obviously very limited.

Klaus, can you give me an introductory course in reading this diagram? I know the basics = C = 4 valence or whatever they are called, O=2, etc...

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11778&d=1133121185

 

[bigpetefox]

Ah, that diagram makes more sense now that I see it.. :thumbsup:

 

[Grunt76]

Well good for you man, 'cause I'm quite baffled by it. How can the 17th carbon have either a methyl and something else, or just the something else? Carbons have 4 ... (links?) I forget what they are called... So what happens when there is just the whatever at 17a and nothing at 17b? I see no double bond...

 

[bigpetefox]

Well good for you man, 'cause I'm quite baffled by it. How can the 17th carbon have either a methyl and something else, or just the something else? Carbons have 4 ... (links?) I forget what they are called... So what happens when there is just the whatever at 17a and nothing at 17b? I see no double bond...

Someone else who knows chemistry alittle more than I (hobby chemist) could explain what the actual bonds are (acetyl groups?).. It is possible for there to be "something" there, yet it has no chemical action.. The 17th position is alpha and beta, I'm not sure if during synthesis the methylation goes from one to the other, but it does seem interesting as to how some are 17b and others are 17a alkylated..

 

[Grunt76]

Nice rant, Pete. They should make a Half-Life movie. Or not.

 

[Magickk]

Well good for you man, 'cause I'm quite baffled by it. How can the 17th carbon have either a methyl and something else, or just the something else? Carbons have 4 ... (links?) I forget what they are called... So what happens when there is just the whatever at 17a and nothing at 17b? I see no double bond...

I don't understand chemical structures that are drawn out like the one there, I prefer specific atoms and lines to denote the bonds... Which is what the "links" you were referring to are called, bonds.

 

[jmh80]

Grunt,
Carbon can have 4 bonds.
The 17th carbon on Winstrol has a Ch3 (methyl) group along with an alchohol group (OH) and with 2 bonds to the neighboring carbons on the ring structure. The 17th carbon on Prostanozol has 2 bonds to carbons, a bond to a hydrogen atom (merely H, not H2) and the bond to the oxygen molecule (an ether linkage).

An ether is represented as C-O-C.

The A and B are alpha and beta respectively. They represent the position in space (3-D structure). One represents pointing 45 degrees up from the plane of the ring structure and the other pointing down from the plane. I forget which is which.

Any other questions?

 

[jmh80]

Oh, and Klaus drew the stuctures as most chemists do. He omitted all the hydrogen bonds.

 

[DR.D]

Estra-4,9-diene-3,17-dione is one of those rare cases where a 17 ketone still has appreciable activity. You could convert it to the alcohol by reduction and then form an ester, or you could directly alkylate this ketone with a Me or Et attachment.

 

[poopypants]

From Vida's book, I am only aware of one steroid with appreciable activity as a 17-keto derivative. I didn't know diendione was also somewhat active. Can you provide some documentation on this? If such is the case, oral consumption would be just fine.

i know how documentation would be nice for the sake of science but if this is finigenX being discussed here then i think that the results from users speak for themselves in terms of availability. sorry if im mistaken.

 

[Grunt76]

:box: Klaus you are my star. I could not thank you enough for that guide! It kicks ass!:thumbsup:

Now I understand something of that crazy steroid chemistry!!! :woohoo:

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Klaus again." Oh well... Later then...

 

[Grunt76]

Finigenx works because of the so-called "liposomal delivery system", which, well, uses liposomes to deliver the good stuff. Whatever that means.

 

[Grunt76]

Admins should put that .pdf of Klaus's in the stickies somewhere for when the discussions get technical.

 

[Grunt76]

You're too modest man. Most of us aren't looking to become chemists, but would really like to have some general idea what's being talked about when it gets chemical. Your guide is just perfect.

Now, after reading it and all that, I realize that a prostanozol ester isn't doable. Why? Because it's an injectable stanozolol, no more, no less. The prostanozol can be argued, with long odds, as being a different structure. Not with any ester though. You get me.

 

[Grunt76]

Stanazolol is illegal. The prostanozol acetate is stanozolol, unmethylated, with an ester. "Injectable Winny" as it has been called, is certainly illegal. IOW, importing that powder would be wrong.

Prostanozol, OTOH, aka "[3,2-c]pyrazole-5alpha-etioallocholane-17beta tetrahydropyranol" is legally sold in 25mg capsules, so I don't see why I couldn't import a few kilos of it. In my country, which isn't the USA, but that's another story since the laws are similar anyways.

The distinction is everything to do with legislation and nothing to do with what we might prefer...

 

[Grunt76]

Well if you can make up a name like the pyrazole-5alpha-etioallocholane, etc, then perhaps they might let it through. I'll give myself the trouble of checking with them only with such a name. "ANDRO" is like a big red light to them I guess.

I kinda wonder if the prostanozol-ester or whatever it would be called has ever been done, tried, etc. I sure am willing to be the first.

Hey here's an idea for you: come up with a super-simple way to join two legal halves of a steroid molecule in a kit, with reagents, and let people make their own gear. A+B = test. A+C = Nandrolone. A+D = Trenbolone. That'd be cute.

 

[poopypants]

:box:
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Klaus again." Oh well... Later then...

i second that thanks for all the info klaus :thumbsup:

 

[bigpetefox]

Hey here's an idea for you: come up with a super-simple way to join two legal halves of a steroid molecule in a kit, with reagents, and let people make their own gear. A+B = test. A+C = Nandrolone. A+D = Trenbolone. That'd be cute.

If you do a search in this forum, I believe someone made a thread about how to convert 1-test base into any hormone you want..

I think it was either Skye or Spidey who did the thread, two chemically-inclined psychos..

 

[Grunt76]

If you do a search in this forum, I believe someone made a thread about how to convert 1-test base into any hormone you want..

I think it was either Skye or Spidey who did the thread, two chemically-inclined psychos..

Gotta love this site!!!! :head:

Hmmmm... What to do now that 1-test is banned though... :blink: I got into this too late I guess. Now. Here's what's left to do:

Get a kit, refine the prostanozol to powder. Make an injectable with that, and try it. If it's good like that, just order that from this or some other supplier. Hey it might be OK both orally and injected. That would be just PERFECT.

 

[bigpetefox]

Yup, the original is over at superiormuscle.. One of them posted some of the info over here, too..

 

[Magickk]

I would recommend against oral administration. The amount of active material that would actually make it through the liver would be very dissapointing. Injection, however, could be very promising.

This is prostan you're talking about?

 

[DR.D]

Klaus is correct. Prostan is an ether, but an ester version would be just as legal. Only the 17-methyl version (Winni) is illegal, without a prescription, but an ethyl version might be interesting.

 

[jmh80]

Klaus,
I love your statement about confusion.

As a chemical engineer, I am trying my best to become an expert in confusion and obfuscation.

 

[DR.D]

Klause,

I totally agree about ET. To be honest, we were considering it for awhile, but couldn't find a lab to cook it, even with the obvious, easiest synthseis schemes. Too bad, because it would be as you suggested: very potent, yet far more liver friendly than MT. 17a-Ethyl,17b-THP-estra-4,9,11-triene-3-one sounds a bit extravagant though! I don't think the ether would be needed to insure legality.

I know Winstrol is too weak to make an ethyl analog at first glance, but since it acts as an anti-progestin and the ethyl sub would promote progestinic activity, it may totally change the intrinsic effectiveness of a pyrazole derivative. Just thought it sounded interesting. I never stop contemplating such compounds!

 

[jmh80]

Claus, :icon_lol:

I'll be your guinea pig if you wanna find someone to make the estrogen derivative.