Another Hockey Thread...Ovechkin v Crosby

[tribaltek]

I'll take both! Er... wait, my team *has* both. Lucky me :wave2:

I'd definitely take Henrik over Datsyuk, though.

 

[Rodja]

I'll take both! Er... wait, my team *has* both. Lucky me :wave2:

I'm obligated to hate you now since you're a Wings fan...

 

[tribaltek]

No problem, man. I understand

But hey... I'm in Detroit. At least I have SOMETHING good, ya know?

And your team is... the Stars?

 

[Rodja]

No problem, man. I understand

But hey... I'm in Detroit. At least I have SOMETHING good, ya know?

And your team is... the Stars?

Hell, no. I hate them, too. I am an Avs fan, hence my man-love for Foppa. It's going to a be a long 3 years.

 

[tribaltek]

I am an Avs fan

Avs, eh? Good deal. Lots of good games between us! I miss the old rivalry.

 

[Rodja]

Hockey hasn't been the same for me since St Patrick retired and I really miss those days. Sadly, only a handful of people n both teams still play (Sakic, Foote, Osgood, Lidstrom, and most of the Grind Line)

 

[tribaltek]

Very true. I always hope for some sort of new rivalry with Detroit and whoever... but nothing seems to stick. Chicago is looking pretty upset right now, and they're really young, so hopefully that can brew up... but nothing else has been like Wings-Avs.

 

[Rodja]

Very true. I always hope for some sort of new rivalry with Detroit and whoever... but nothing seems to stick. Chicago is looking pretty upset right now, and they're really young, so hopefully that can brew up... but nothing else has been like Wings-Avs.

All it takes is one incident to cause a nasty rivalry. That being said, neither team has the real snarl to have anything close.

 

[tribaltek]

One incident... or maybe one more brutal check to Marty Havlat

I'm surprised the guy can skate at this point (well, assuming he actually plays the next game).

 

[Mulletsoldier]

One incident... or maybe one more brutal check to Marty Havlat

I'm surprised the guy can skate at this point (well, assuming he actually plays the next game).

It appears as if my team [Pens] and your team [Wings] are on a collision course for the first Finals rematch since '84 [IIRC]. Except, obviously, with a drastically different result!:thanks:

 

[tribaltek]

It will be a good series, Mullet. And it's nice to see a rematch in the cup finals.

I think it's going to be a better series than last season, but I believe in my team, and I'm looking forward to us being the first team to repeat as Stanley Cup Champions since... well... the Red Wings :wave2:

 

[Mulletsoldier]

It will be a good series, Mullet. And it's nice to see a rematch in the cup finals.

I think it's going to be a better series than last season, but I believe in my team, and I'm looking forward to us being the first team to repeat as Stanley Cup Champions since... well... the Red Wings :wave2:

Nice, hah! I was waiting to see how you'd respond to that!

I feel it depends primarily on the play of our back-end - in other words, if they cannot navigate past the suffocating Detroit neutral-zone trap, and enter the O-Zone, then we will have no success. To that end, the health of Gonchar will play a large part here, as Letang has not shown success in navigating between the blues.

This being said, Detroit simply cannot contain Crosby and Malkin. It is nearly impossible to sustain momentum when the best player in the world is on one shift, and an individual not too far behind is on the very next shift: the fact that Malkin is playing his best hockey at a time when he disappeared last year is also indicative of a Pens win!

Finally, history is on our side: the last two teams to rematch in the Cup Final were the Islanders and the Oilers, with a young Oilers team losing the first year only to dismantle the Islanders the next year!

 

[Rodja]

I was reading an blog by Buccigross over at ESPN and it got me thinking about this question: if the Wings repeat, is Osgood a HoFer?

Objectively, when you look at the numbers, it's a push (he'll have over 400 wins and a 2.47 GAA), but he would have 4 cups.

Personally, I say not at all because I don't think of him when I am asked the elite goalies of the past 15 years.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I was reading an blog by Buccigross over at ESPN and it got me thinking about this question: if the Wings repeat, is Osgood a HoFer?

Objectively, when you look at the numbers, it's a push (he'll have over 400 wins and a 2.47 GAA), but he would have 4 cups.

Personally, I say not at all because I don't think of him when I am asked the elite goalies of the past 15 years.

He is quite the enigma, for precisely the sentiment contained in your last sentiment. The fact is this: any above-average goalie could have won cups with those Detroit teams; preview their defensive statistics from their cup years to verify this! In fact, Ty Conklin, a less-than-average goalie [see: his years in Edmonton] carried Detroit to the second seed in a tough Western Conference this year!

If you truly want to judge Osgood, take a gander at his PK statistics from this playoffs: an .889 save percentage and a phenomenal amount of goals against. Detroit wins in spite of, and not because of, Osgood.

By the way, he is from my birthplace of Medicine Hat, a place I lived for the middle fifteen years of my life; even people there do not feel he is a good goalie! P.S., Trevor Linden was also from Medicine Hat.

 

[Rodja]

He is quite the enigma, for precisely the sentiment contained in your last sentiment. The fact is this: any above-average goalie could have won cups with those Detroit teams; preview their defensive statistics from their cup years to verify this! In fact, Ty Conklin, a less-than-average goalie [see: his years in Edmonton] carried Detroit to the second seed in a tough Western Conference this year!

If you truly want to judge Osgood, take a gander at his PK statistics from this playoffs: an .889 save percentage and a phenomenal amount of goals against. Detroit wins in spite of, and not because of, Osgood.

By the way, he is from my birthplace of Medicine Hat, a place I lived for the middle fifteen years of my life; even people there do not feel he is a good goalie! P.S., Trevor Linden was also from Medicine Hat.

His overall playoff GAA is 2.11. He was amazing last year in the playoffs and, IMO, should have won the Conn Smythe.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

His overall playoff GAA is 2.11. He was amazing last year in the playoffs and, IMO, should have won the Conn Smythe.

Yes, but GAA is not an individual stat, it is a team statistic: it depends upon the defensive play of an entire team, which was more or less the thrust of my argument above.

The point about the PK was to illuminate that, individually, he is a slightly above-average goalie. While 5-on-5 GAA is in fact a team statistic, short-handed save percentage and GAA is far more indicative of an individual goalie's play; in that regard, Osgood has faired poorly this year and last!

To say he was amazing last year, in my opinion, is a slight stretch as well.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Detroit's penalty-kill is plodding at a meager 71% this year, with a goal allowed in twelve consecutive games at one point.

 

[tribaltek]

I will concede that Detroit's defense this year has been awful - penalty kill included.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I will concede that Detroit's defense this year has been awful - penalty kill included.

5-on-5 they have been fine, but the penalty kill: whoa!

Seriously though, their PK has been simply atrocious this playoff season; with Pittsburgh clicking at over 30% [IIRC] over the 'Canes/Pens series, D-Town could be in trouble.

 

[tribaltek]

We shall see, Mullet. We shall see. First we just need both of our teams to close things out

 

[Mulletsoldier]

We shall see, Mullet. We shall see. First we just need both of our teams to close things out

You are certainly right, Tribal; I have probably jinxed us both, hah!

Friendly wager if our teams make it to the cup, though? An NP gift certificate, perhaps?

 

[tribaltek]

You are certainly right, Tribal; I have probably jinxed us both, hah!

A Canes vs Hawks series just doesn't seem as entertaining :dunno:

Friendly wager if our teams make it to the cup, though? An NP gift certificate, perhaps?

Absolutely! I am one broke mo-fo right now, so how about the $25 one? http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/nutraplanet/gift-certificate-25.html

 

[Mulletsoldier]

A Canes vs Hawks series just doesn't seem as entertaining :dunno:



Absolutely! I am one broke mo-fo right now, so how about the $25 one? http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/nutraplanet/gift-certificate-25.html

Sounds good!

 

[tribaltek]

Deal!

I sent you a PM btw (after I saw that your sig said use email for questions, of course).

 

[tribaltek]

 

[tribaltek]

And the Penguins sweep (the conference finals).

 

[tribaltek]

Are you shining up that NP gift certificate for me yet, Mullet?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Are you shining up that NP gift certificate for me yet, Mullet?

Not quite yet, tribal. It has been a home series thus far, so I wouldn't get your hopes up for a win on Tuesday.

 

[tribaltek]

It had indeed. I'll openly admit Detroit has looked sub-par (especially defensively) while in Pitts. I think getting Datsyuk back was a huge boost. While I would rather us parade the cup around home ice, I'll take a game 6 win as well. But I wouldn't doubt this going 7 games (as a lot of series have in this years playoffs).

 

[Mulletsoldier]

It had indeed. I'll openly admit Detroit has looked sub-par (especially defensively) while in Pitts. I think getting Datsyuk back was a huge boost. While I would rather us parade the cup around home ice, I'll take a game 6 win as well. But I wouldn't doubt this going 7 games (as a lot of series have in this years playoffs).

I feel a game seven is likely, given the way each team has dominated in their buildings. Obviously, this means that in order to win the Cup Pittsburgh needs to do something it has only done once in these past two Cup Finals: win a game in Detroit.

 

[tribaltek]

Seven games is good for the NHL, TV, revenues, etc... but I can't say it's good for my blood pressure

Neither team has looked like itself while playing away, but playoffs are unpredictable, so you never know what might happen.

While I did believe Pitts was going to lose Saturday before the puck even dropped, I didn't think they were going to self-destruct in the fashion they did. I was quite happy to see the box score...

Malkin - 6 PIM, 1 SOG
Crosby - 1 SOG, -2 rating

I think game 6 is going to be a good one!!!

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I thought the script of this series was going to follow the one written by the Penguins in their series against Washington - and so, I thought they were going to win last night. The psychological boost of getting Datsyuk back was obviously large, and then another defender to put on Malkin. Obviously, though, momentum means jack shit in this series, as Detroit responded beautifully from being dominated two straight games in Pittsburgh. As I said, being a home series it really now comes down to either team needing a road win to close out the series.

 

[tribaltek]

As Mike Babcock has said multiple times this playoff year "I don't buy into momentum". I really think he's right.

Having Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both Selke caliber forwards) gives Babcock the option to roll Z with Crosby and Datsyuk with Malkin, or if Bylsma decides Crosby and Malkin need to be out together most the game (which I suspect), we can go with Z and Datsyuk on the same line.

Either way, don't expect as much free play for your two stars Tuesday night. While I don't think they'll be relegated to 2 combined shots like they were last night, I don't believe they're going to combine for 4 points again like they did games 3 and 4.

Lets do it again fellas!

 

[AZMIDLYF]

Best of three series with two games in Detroit....I'll take the Wings!

 

[Mulletsoldier]

As Mike Babcock has said multiple times this playoff year "I don't buy into momentum". I really think he's right.

Having Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both Selke caliber forwards) gives Babcock the option to roll Z with Crosby and Datsyuk with Malkin, or if Bylsma decides Crosby and Malkin need to be out together most the game (which I suspect), we can go with Z and Datsyuk on the same line.

Which is unlikely, as Babcock publicly stated that the frenzy to line-match with Bylsma ruined chemistry between the other lines, and resulted in poor play on Zetterberg's behalf. Babcock will most likely stick Henrik on Crosby, but not as patently as he had the previous four games [showed again in Game 5]. The only match-up he seems keen on sticking with is Lidstrom/Rafalski on Crosby's line.

Either way, don't expect as much free play for your two stars Tuesday night. While I don't think they'll be relegated to 2 combined shots like they were last night, I don't believe they're going to combine for 4 points again like they did games 3 and 4.

Lets do it again fellas!

We will see. Crosby and Malkin's play in this series, when it has been poor, is more a function of self-destructing rather than sound defensive play, as Malkin was the leading point-getter in the series irrespective of whom was defending him, and Crosby was generating a lot of chances - free ice or not, the great ones find a way to get it done. I think you are over-estimating the defensive play of Detroit in game five, and underestimating the Penguins' team meltdown. Crosby and Malkin will be fine.

Now, if both Malkin and Crosby show up, and Staal's line dominates down-low again, you may as well trade that picture of Draper [Franzen?] in above for a nice black-and-gold clad one. Detroit simply cannot hang with Pittsburgh's center-core, and that showed in game four. Again, though: that's why they play.

 

[tribaltek]

That's Draper holding the cup, big guy

Your arguments hold value, but as you stated, that's why they play. We can talk all we want about what "should" happen, but that doesn't translate to a cup (or else Detroit would have taken a cup in '96 when they had 62 regular season wins).

My prediction (using last years photos) -

 

[tribaltek]

Best of three series with two games in Detroit....I'll take the Wings!

Uhh... if you made this statement Friday it would have been true :sleeping:

It's 3-2, Wings lead, with one game at each arena remaining. :wave2:

 

[Mulletsoldier]

That's Draper holding the cup, big guy

Your arguments hold value, but as you stated, that's why they play. We can talk all we want about what "should" happen, but that doesn't translate to a cup (or else Detroit would have taken a cup in '96 when they had 62 regular season wins).

My prediction (using last years photos) -

Thanks for the clarification, champ.

 

[tribaltek]

Does anyone else find it interesting that the finals started off with 3 games in 4 nights, but now we have a two day layoff? While the time off can (hopefully) only help the Wings further recover from their injuries, I think I got spoiled by the sheer amount of hockey in a limited time frame.

What the hell am I going to watch next week when hockey is over? :dunno:

 

[tribaltek]

I got a question for you, Mullet.

Five times (and not since 2003) the Conn Smyth trophy has been awarded to a member of the losing team in the Stanley Cup Finals. Assuming Pitts loses, do you think Malkin should be awarded the trophy?

He currently has 14 goals, 21 assists, 3 game winners, and 99 SOG. Nobody on the Wings roster has stats close to that.

If a Red Wing is to take the trophy, I think the only way it would be fair (to Pitts) is to give it to Osgood (15-6, 2.00 GAA, .927 SV, 2 SO).

Your thoughts?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I got a question for you, Mullet.

Five times (and not since 2003) the Conn Smyth trophy has been awarded to a member of the losing team in the Stanley Cup Finals. Assuming Pitts loses, do you think Malkin should be awarded the trophy?

He currently has 14 goals, 21 assists, 3 game winners, and 99 SOG. Nobody on the Wings roster has stats close to that.

If a Red Wing is to take the trophy, I think the only way it would be fair (to Pitts) is to give it to Osgood (15-6, 2.00 GAA, .927 SV, 2 SO).

Your thoughts?

Well, it depends on how you consider the Conn Smythe to be awarded - that is, as the "playoff MVP" or the "finals MVP". With 31 points and 15 goals, Crosby's scoresheet looks incredibly similar, and he has been far more consistent throughout the playoffs; a better "all around player", so to speak. If Crosby were to pick it up through the next two games, and Pittsburgh wins, he should by rights garner the trophy. The collective memory in the sports world is short and only tangible: Crosby has played better in all aspects throughout this run.

Even with that being said, though, Malkin has not done enough to deserve the award on a hypothetically losing team: his performance has not been awe-inspiring like a Giggy several years ago v., NJ; and I would say the same for Sid.

While you and I could tandem goalie for the Wings and win the William Jennings trophy, I agree the CS would go to Osgoode in the event of a Wings win.

 

[tribaltek]

I haven't seen much of Pitts besides the finals, so I'll take your word on Crosby's performance throughout the entire playoffs. I knew he had similar stats, but if anything, hockey is a sport that does not reflect the entire game on a box score.

While you and I could tandem goalie for the Wings and win the William Jennings trophy

In any other season I might agree with you, but we've been extremely porous this year. We (Detroit) wondered all year if we would even make it this far because of our defense this season. It has not been good. Luckily we ended up scoring a lot of goals, otherwise our record would have been much worse.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I haven't seen much of Pitts besides the finals, so I'll take your word on Crosby's performance throughout the entire playoffs. I knew he had similar stats, but if anything, hockey is a sport that does not reflect the entire game on a box score.

Let me tell you, tribal: Sid has been unbelievable. He has scored the opening or go-ahead goal more times for his team than any other in the playoffs; he has been stellar on face-offs [up until now]; incredible defensively, and; most importantly, he has led this team. The fact that, in a head-to-head duel, he out-scored Ovechkin while playing a more dominating and defensively sound game after not being nominated for the Hart is fantastic in-and-of-itself.

In any other season I might agree with you, but we've been extremely porous this year. We (Detroit) wondered all year if we would even make it this far because of our defense this season. It has not been good. Luckily we ended up scoring a lot of goals, otherwise our record would have been much worse.

I suppose that is true: Detroit has been letting in a ton of goals, compared with previous years. That being said, Ty Conklin still ran up a fantastic record with Detroit, and he is, by rights, a terrible goalie [ran out of Edmonton, for example]. While most of the greatest goalies ever had fantastic defenses [Brodeur in NJ; Dryden in Montreal] Detroit's particular style of play means any schmuck can win there, and win big.

 

[tribaltek]

Sounds like I should have caught more of the Pitts-Wash series. I did catch pieces of two games. I didn't realize Crosby had stepped up his defensive game as much as you state. From everything I always read about him, he's a one-dimensional player (offense only). He can move the puck very well, and he holds the puck as well as anyone in the game (even during those 360's into the offensive zone).

I wish Crosby and Malkin a great future in the NHL. I think they'll be great together for quite some time (assuming Malkin doesn't jump ship for a huge paycheck). I think Sid will forever be a Penguin. He was the face of the franchise as soon as he put on that first sweater.

30 hours until game time!

 

[Mulletsoldier]

No, Sid is incredibly multi-dimensional. He is one of the only superstars who will block a shot in the defensive zone, chip the puck in to the offensive zone, dig at it from the half-boards and then manage to still make a pretty offensive play. He is physical, an amazing passer, great leader, can play a grind-and-dig game, great backhand, and can be a prolific scorer! I feel the Wash-Pit series displayed why, above Malkin and OV, Sid is the best player in the game: he does it all, literally. To be truthful, I would place Datsyuk over Ovechkin anyway, but that is me!

 

[tribaltek]

I would take Datsyuk over Ovie as well (especially an uninjured Datsyuk).

I'll keep a close eye on Crosby. My favorite players have always been all-around players, doing all of the things you described above. I've been lucky to see this with Yzerman, Datsyuk and Zetterberg on a consistent basis. Man I miss watching Yzerman

Yahoo! Sports just posted an article on why Malkin should win the Conn Smythe - http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Making-the-case-for-Evgeni-Malkin-as-playoff-MVP;_ylt=AkGouJXfxGMOc.TbJJ_lfZN7vLYF?urn=nhl,168669

 

[Mulletsoldier]

For one, Malkin's no defensive powerhouse, and despite scoring all those points, he's only a plus-2 after 22 games. He also doesn't kill penalties and hasn't been getting the most difficult opposition as teams focus on Crosby.

He's also tied with Joni Pitkanen(notes) and Joe Corvo(notes) for having been on the ice for the most 5-on-5 goals against of any player, and has a GA/60 of 3.35, second highest on the Pens. Crosby's, in comparison, is just 2.22, while Zetterberg is at 1.39.

Here is what I meant! Crosby, FTW.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Crosby is unequivocally better all-around. Put it this way: Crosby is effective even when he does not score; if Malkin does not score, he is nonexistent.

 

[tribaltek]

Definitely see why you prefer Crosby over Malkin with all of that said. If you kill penalties, you're always a better player in my book.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Definitely. As I said, you can watch Crosby play and say, "Man, he had a great game!", even when he does not score. IMO, this was the case in game one! Malkin, on the other hand, either scores or he does not score, and that is his game. This is why Crosby always > Malkin.