‘Another one bites the dust’

[Rad83]

Longtime fave pump supp of many!!

Pes high volume, has removed the gram of agmatine and the ferulic acid!

Just saw the new formula on amazon…

 

[DaveMcNaul]

I don't like the new label.
So basic.

 

[sns8778]

It was likely to decrease product cost/increase margins and also because Agmatine can be problematic in some EU countries.

I hadn't looked at the formula in a long time before seeing this post.

 

[Rad83]

It was likely to decrease product cost/increase margins and also because Agmatine can be problematic in some EU countries.

I hadn't looked at the formula in a long time before seeing this post.

My thoughts as well….cheaping out !

 

[sns8778]

My thoughts as well….cheaping out !

I know it sucks but on a certain level I do understand - because every time you cross certain price points, sales drop dramatically.

I have a very in depth discussion going about the way this works in another thread right now - where I went into a lot of detail about a particular product formulation process and the role finished price plays and asked people's opinions on if they'd like to see great product for 39.99 or absolute best there could possibly be at 49.99 to 59.99.

I'm using this years Tell Us What You Want thread as a product request and update thread, but also as a chat thread and industry insight type of thing where I'm explaining things to people that like to learn about it bc I had several people ask if I would do that.

Here's a link for anyone interested:

Tell Us What You Would Like to see From SNS, CEL, Muscle Addiction, & XPG (2024 Edition) - AnabolicMinds.com

I hope that everyone had a wonderful holiday and that their New Years is off to a great start. Each year, I do a thread asking for suggestions as to what products that people would like to see from us, as well as what ingredients they’re interested in or would like to see included in formulas...

anabolicminds.com

 

[N2ofusion]

Yeah, what a crock of BS.

I don’t mind cheap products when they’re marketed as such. But they’re just banking on the name here.

 

[sns8778]

Yeah, what a crock of BS.

I don’t mind cheap products when they’re marketed as such. But they’re just banking on the name here.

I think PES is in a no win situation - and I can understand people being upset though.

Starting as a company with a smaller more loyal following and growing, they have people that still expect great products like they had at one time - but as they have grown, so has their advertising budget and they've got to keep margins tight to afford the ads and to compete with the more marketing based brands.

I'm not justifying or making excuses for them - I haven't used anything by them in probably 10 years besides their protein and when I tried that, I don't like it bc it hurts my stomach. Just trying to offer insight into the why side based on the industry now.

 

[Rad83]

Yeah, what a crock of BS.

I don’t mind cheap products when they’re marketed as such. But they’re just banking on the name here.

….this is a big F U to the loyal customers that have supported this formula over many years. The photo in their ad even says “new look, same product” They really think people aren’t gonna notice the change?

You’d think they’d take the glycerol out, because all the idiots on Amazon review it negatively when it’s slightly clumped/rocked…

The price is the same, for the cheaper product. Weak.

 

[sns8778]

….this is a big F U to the loyal customers that have supported this formula over many years. The photo in their ad even says “new look, same product” They really think people aren’t gonna notice the change?

You’d think they’d take the glycerol out, because all the idiots on Amazon review it negatively when it’s slightly clumped/rocked…

The price is the same, for the cheaper product. Weak.

Yeah, that is definitely wrong on their part if that's the case.

I didn't look at it on Amazon so I haven't seen any of what you're referring to about them saying its the same product.

I'm surprised to that they didn't remove the Glycerol bc of clumping. Being that its in a prop blend, I wonder if they decreased the dosage of it because the way its listed they could just increase the Taurine and take the Glycerol down to 1 mg. if they wanted to.

The price being the same for less being in it is what I meant about them trying to increase margins - that's been a common trend with companies over the last few years - trying to maintain price points by removing ingredients. I can understand that when ingredient prices increase, like especially back during Covid, but it seems to happen all the time now.

It's been a running joke here with @BCseacow83 (who works in the industry) joking with me when we updated Epi-Plex and Cycle Assist by adding to the formulas and making them better, that I was doing it wrong bc everyone's new and improved versions of everything now days is mostly removing ingredients and selling it for the same or higher price - like you're pointing out that PES is doing.

 

[jgraves31]

….this is a big F U to the loyal customers that have supported this formula over many years. The photo in their ad even says “new look, same product” They really think people aren’t gonna notice the change?

You’d think they’d take the glycerol out, because all the idiots on Amazon review it negatively when it’s slightly clumped/rocked…

The price is the same, for the cheaper product. Weak.

PES went a similar route with their “reformulation” of Alphamine a few years ago. Very disappointing.

 

[Rad83]

PES went a similar route with their “reformulation” of Alphamine a few years ago. Very disappointing.

Ah that reminds me, they had a product many people loved (I can’t remember the name and never tried it) maybe it was alphamine, but I’m picturing a capsule product.

*edit…I think it was something with Anacyclus P

 

[sns8778]

Ah that reminds me, they had a product many people loved (I can’t remember the name and never tried it) maybe it was alphamine, but I’m picturing a capsule product.

I think Alphamine had both a capsule and powder version but I can't remember for 100% sure.

I remember them changing the original AnaBeta that everyone loved and that was a capsule product.

I want to clarify too that I'm definitely not defending them - I don't use anything by them and don't know anyone there anymore, so I don't care one way or the other about them. I just sometimes try to explain the industry reasons why certain decisions get made, but never trying to defend, just explain.

 

[Rad83]

^ yeah anabeta that’s the name I’m picturing

 

[N2ofusion]

It’s just a complete lack of support to customers that want “hardcore” products. They’ve weakened everything! Even the hated Muscletech can offer Hydroxycut Hardcore with a lot of yohimbine and have it available in Food Lion, Walmart, etc. There’s literally nothing in Alphamine caps.

 

[DaveMcNaul]

the best things in life are temporary...

 

[TheMrMuscle]

Here in Sweden our version has never had Agmatine as it is, like @sns8778 said illegal. So we got an extra gram of L-Citrulline instead. But ferulic acid is in ours, ill have to see if we get a reformulated EU version as well.

 

[BigGame84]

PES Enhanced was a very good pre workout when that first came out.

 

[BJT]

PES Enhanced was a very good pre workout when that first came out.

Loved the little tubs which you could easily take anywhere, too.

 

[Anabolic66]

I have some Super Swole powder on the way. Looking FWD to it.
Found it on another site since Steve is out of stock. Looks like an awesome formula, (as always).

Also, Pepti-Plex and Anabolic Effect are on the way...

 

[sns8778]

I have some Super Swole powder on the way. Looking FWD to it.
Found it on another site since Steve is out of stock. Looks like an awesome formula, (as always).

Also, Pepti-Plex and Anabolic Effect are on the way...

I'm surprised you were able to find some. That would be the original version with GlycerPump in it, which we had to discontinue bc of clumping unfortunately. We hope to have the new version of the powder out soon - which will be very similar to the capsule version that people love with just a few changeups.

If the tub you found to order is terribly clumped, you can dump the contents in a blender and then back in the tub and put in the refrigerator and that will help keep it from clumping back up. That's a trick for most clumped powders.

Anabolic Effect & Pepti-Plex is an awesome stack - I look forward to hearing your feedback.

 

[Anabolic66]

I'm surprised you were able to find some. That would be the original version with GlycerPump in it, which we had to discontinue bc of clumping unfortunately. We hope to have the new version of the powder out soon - which will be very similar to the capsule version that people love with just a few changeups.

If the tub you found to order is terribly clumped, you can dump the contents in a blender and then back in the tub and put in the refrigerator and that will help keep it from clumping back up. That's a trick for most clumped powders.

Anabolic Effect & Pepti-Plex is an awesome stack - I look forward to hearing your feedback.

Yeah, in the past I dumped it in the coffee grinder or silver-bullet, always fixes things up...

 

[Quadzilla99]

Longtime fave pump supp of many!!

Pes high volume, has removed the gram of agmatine and the ferulic acid!

Just saw the new formula on amazon…

I remember when Mr.Cooper69 was designing supplements for them and posting knowledge here and on bb.com. ahhh, the good ol days...

 

[Quadzilla99]

Ah that reminds me, they had a product many people loved (I can’t remember the name and never tried it) maybe it was alphamine, but I’m picturing a capsule product.

*edit…I think it was something with Anacyclus P

Norcodrene?

 

[Rad83]

Norcodrene?

The one I was thinking of was AnaBeta Elite.

What was in Norcodrene?

I can’t stand a sellout. HV was a fine product
as is. Many times I bought it for $24-$30.

I imagine enough folks will vote with their wallets and pes will get the message

 

[sns8778]

The one I was thinking of was AnaBeta Elite.

What was in Norcodrene?

I can’t stand a sellout. HV was a fine product
as is. Many times I bought it for $24-$30.

I imagine enough folks will vote with their wallets and pes will get the message

The original PES Norcodrene had Higenamine in it, so they didn't have a choice about changing that one. If I remember correctly, they changed it well before the FDA made the statement on Higenamine, but I think they probably saw it coming - and Higenamine was already problematic in a lot of international markets and that's been a big focus for PES for years.

 

[BCseacow83]

I'm surprised you were able to find some. That would be the original version with GlycerPump in it, which we had to discontinue bc of clumping unfortunately. We hope to have the new version of the powder out soon - which will be very similar to the capsule version that people love with just a few changeups.

If the tub you found to order is terribly clumped, you can dump the contents in a blender and then back in the tub and put in the refrigerator and that will help keep it from clumping back up. That's a trick for most clumped powders.

Anabolic Effect & Pepti-Plex is an awesome stack - I look forward to hearing your feedback.

I had to toss about $500.00 retail price worth of pre's that I forgot I had at home. THE ONLY ONE that was still powder and not a brick was Super-Swole. I'm not sure if the rest of the jugs worked as dessicants for the super-swole but they were all clumped at best, bricked at worst. There was even a "wet spot" like a drop of water in the BOTTOM of one of the jars(transparent so you can see it, WTF?)

I am NOT complaining as the Super-swole is the only one I can use, I'm happy! The rest were all insane stim based stuff from apolon and god labs or something like that.

 

[BCseacow83]

I lit a candle for PES at a small memorial service I held years ago...........................................

I personally don't understand these moves. They had brand recognition with places like this and people like us, useless, IMO, for targeting the mainstream so why not start a new brand seeing as how you will have to spend that money on promotion anyways? May as well keep the OG brand as is, use the profit to fund the "lifestyle" nonsense. Also have fun with thae ZERO product loyalty that most consumers in that market show. That's the "whats new" crowd, no thanks. Trying to compete on price with products that likely don't even have 50% of what they claim on the label on a platform that gives zero f*cks about is is not a race worth running IMO. Then again I kinda suck at business so theres that. lol

 

[Resolve10]

I lit a candle for PES at a small memorial service I held years ago...........................................

I personally don't understand these moves. They had brand recognition with places like this and people like us, useless, IMO, for targeting the mainstream so why not start a new brand seeing as how you will have to spend that money on promotion anyways? May as well keep the OG brand as is, use the profit to fund the "lifestyle" nonsense. Also have fun with thae ZERO product loyalty that most consumers in that market show. That's the "whats new" crowd, no thanks. Trying to compete on price with products that likely don't even have 50% of what they claim on the label on a platform that gives zero f*cks about is is not a race worth running IMO. Then again I kinda suck at business so theres that. lol

I mean I think the thing is a lot of people over estimate how "loyal" and how big the market for some of these more "advanced" brands there really is. Combine that with just how businesses and that whole culture currently is in the world the ultimate goal is to make profits. You'll see it in all sorts of fields. If a company wants to continue to grow they are going to have to increase their audience and as you increase your audience you have to widen the net, which often means less targeted precise products and more broad that can capture that larger audience. And that is only one aspect of how the brand may change as it tries to grow.

It sucks, but it has also been so many years of them moving this direction idk why anyone even keeps beating the dead horse or is surprised. Maybe if people who seem to want "hardcore" stuff supported these brands more and weren't just as quick to be blinded by marketing by brands who release crappy products behind fancy words trying to be "advanced" who barely understand regulations and quality control more of these brands would be less likely to "move on" to bigger audiences.

 

[BCseacow83]

I mean I think the thing is a lot of people over estimate how "loyal" and how big the market for some of these more "advanced" brands there really is. Combine that with just how businesses and that whole culture currently is in the world the ultimate goal is to make profits. You'll see it in all sorts of fields. If a company wants to continue to grow they are going to have to increase their audience and as you increase your audience you have to widen the net, which often means less targeted precise products and more broad that can capture that larger audience. And that is only one aspect of how the brand may change as it tries to grow.

It sucks, but it has also been so many years of them moving this direction idk why anyone even keeps beating the dead horse or is surprised. Maybe if people who seem to want "hardcore" stuff supported these brands more and weren't just as quick to be blinded by marketing by brands who release crappy products behind fancy words trying to be "advanced" who barely understand regulations and quality control more of these brands would be less likely to "move on" to bigger audiences.

I can't speak for others but I have been pretty loyal to the brands I use but there is only so many caps/tabs/powders a guy can consume. My point is if there was enough support for their products to sustain them in their original incarnation I see no reason to completely pivot. Expand offerings? Sure, that makes sense. But to take your best selling most popular offerings(of which very little of the public knows about) and to completely neuter them is asinine. To this day 99.99% of people have NO IDEA what alphamine is or was, good thing they completely ruined it. To stop caring at all about the customer base that got you started is a lousy way to do business IMO/IME. You CAN cater to a new wider audience and still maintain some OG offerings for those that got you there.

PES just happens to be the company in this discussion but this goes for many companies. Heck look at the DISASTERS that were Pepsi Clear and New Coke. Also each time you see a PES like pivot it makes you LESS LIKELY to support "hardcore" brands as what's the point if they repeatedly prove they don't really give a ****. Making profit does not have to equal not giving a ****. I refuse to believe it can't be done the right way.

Also in their case, PES, they gave some ABSOLUTE BS answers, remember how arimistane was "about to be banned............" ya.

 

[Rad83]

@BCseacow83 Excellent reply to that Kamala-esque word salad! Lmfao

 

[BCseacow83]

I'll leave it at this:

You can be Parrilla Don Julio,
You can be Firedoor,
You can be El Capricho
or
you can be Outback Steakhouse..............................................................................

I know which one I would rather be.......................

 

[LeanEngineer]

I have some Super Swole powder on the way. Looking FWD to it.
Found it on another site since Steve is out of stock. Looks like an awesome formula, (as always).

Also, Pepti-Plex and Anabolic Effect are on the way...

We're out of stock as well at Strong Supplement Shop but I can see why places are out of stock. Awesome pump pre workout!

 

[Resolve10]

I can't speak for others but I have been pretty loyal to the brands I use but there is only so many caps/tabs/powders a guy can consume. My point is if there was enough support for their products to sustain them in their original incarnation I see no reason to completely pivot. Expand offerings? Sure, that makes sense. But to take your best selling most popular offerings(of which very little of the public knows about) and to completely neuter them is asinine. To this day 99.99% of people have NO IDEA what alphamine is or was, good thing they completely ruined it. To stop caring at all about the customer base that got you started is a lousy way to do business IMO/IME. You CAN cater to a new wider audience and still maintain some OG offerings for those that got you there.

PES just happens to be the company in this discussion but this goes for many companies. Heck look at the DISASTERS that were Pepsi Clear and New Coke. Also each time you see a PES like pivot it makes you LESS LIKELY to support "hardcore" brands as what's the point if they repeatedly prove they don't really give a ****. Making profit does not have to equal not giving a ****. I refuse to believe it can't be done the right way.

Also in their case, PES, they gave some ABSOLUTE BS answers, remember how arimistane was "about to be banned............" ya.

I understand. I posted something last night, but it kind of veered off so deleted it. Just wanted to say I think we are in agreement, I probably just differ in how far I put a gap between what I would prefer for companies to do and what I think the market tends to actually lead to. Don't want you to think I was arguing against you or anything, I personally value your takes on a lot of things.

 

[BCseacow83]

I understand. I posted something last night, but it kind of veered off so deleted it. Just wanted to say I think we are in agreement, I probably just differ in how far I put a gap between what I would prefer for companies to do and what I think the market tends to actually lead to. Don't want you to think I was arguing against you or anything, I personally value your takes on a lot of things.

No worries, never took anything towards me or even thought we disagree at all actually. After being around for so long you just get tired of seeing the MuscleTechs, EAS's, PES's, Alpha Lions, Biotest, Primevil Labs, Gasparis, and many others make their nut on the hardcore and then toss us out the window.

Not to suck up to @sns8778 but CEL made their rep on hardcore and it makes COMPLETE sense to pivot when legislation comes down the pike, of course, but they still make as hardcore of products as the DSHEA will allow.

Long-term hooking the mass market crowd with the dog and pony show they seem to keep rewarding has it's place but then having more hardcore offerings would allow a company to approach that same customer base with a "Hey you love our protein and "baby" pre-workout, when you are ready to "step it up" we offer these "next level" supplements reserved for only the most serious of trainers..............blah blah blah lol. Imagine those customers shock when they tried a PROPERLY dosed product for the first time Mind=Blown.

 

[sns8778]

I understand. I posted something last night, but it kind of veered off so deleted it. Just wanted to say I think we are in agreement, I probably just differ in how far I put a gap between what I would prefer for companies to do and what I think the market tends to actually lead to. Don't want you to think I was arguing against you or anything, I personally value your takes on a lot of things.

I understood where you were coming from - I understand where everyone is coming from - why PES has done the things that they've done and also why customers are upset about it.

That was kind of what I was trying to do myself earlier in the thread was explain their reasoning but not attempting to justify their reasoning because consumers have every right to be bummed out about it, especially ones that have been long time supporters.

I get told all the time - by retailers and other company owners - that I have too many products and that I listen to customers too much and cater too much to smaller customer groups and should make changes to focus on the broader market. I don't do that because that's not me, but for someone like PES whose goal is to grow into a massive company, I do understand.

PES has to do what they feel is best for their company and their own vision and goals.

Customers, especially longtime supporters of the brand, have every right to be bummed or upset with them over it.

I'll give a good non-industry example. I love hats and used to be a big fan of the brand Boston Scally. When they started, they were very high quality, customer focused, and did a good job of making loyal customers feel like they were part of something. As they've grown, the quality has went down, sizing is inconsistent, and the customer service has went to absolute hell - in short, they went from being a high quality hat company that cared about its customers to a marketing company that happens to sell hats and doesn't give a crap about longtime or loyal customers. They simply don't care about the customers that helped make them successful because they sell so much now that they don't care if they lose customers bc their marketing spend will bring in a bunch for every one lost and the likely reduction in quality has probably increased their margin bigtime I would think. From a business side, I understand their decisions - but from a former loyal customer perspective, it was a real bummer to see a brand I used to really like go that direction.

 

[Anabolic66]

I had to toss about $500.00 retail price worth of pre's that I forgot I had at home. THE ONLY ONE that was still powder and not a brick was Super-Swole. I'm not sure if the rest of the jugs worked as dessicants for the super-swole but they were all clumped at best, bricked at worst. There was even a "wet spot" like a drop of water in the BOTTOM of one of the jars(transparent so you can see it, WTF?)

I am NOT complaining as the Super-swole is the only one I can use, I'm happy! The rest were all insane stim based stuff from apolon and god labs or something like that.

Mine came in today. It was basically like 5-6 clumps.
I stuck it all in teh Ninja Bullet (Minus the Silica pack of course) and it looks great now, fine powder.
Stuck it in the fridge, so good to go... Hopefully no 2nd silica pack hidden in a clump, could be a new ingredient...

 

[sns8778]

Mine came in today. It was basically like 5-6 clumps.
I stuck it all in teh Ninja Bullet (Minus the Silica pack of course) and it looks great now, fine powder.
Stuck it in the fridge, so good to go... Hopefully no 2nd silica pack hidden in a clump, could be a new ingredient...

If I remember correctly, there was only one silica pack.

But hey, silicon dioxide is actually silica, one of the most popular hair, skin, and nails ingredients in the country

 

[BCseacow83]

I understood where you were coming from - I understand where everyone is coming from - why PES has done the things that they've done and also why customers are upset about it.

That was kind of what I was trying to do myself earlier in the thread was explain their reasoning but not attempting to justify their reasoning because consumers have every right to be bummed out about it, especially ones that have been long time supporters.

I get told all the time - by retailers and other company owners - that I have too many products and that I listen to customers too much and cater too much to smaller customer groups and should make changes to focus on the broader market. I don't do that because that's not me, but for someone like PES whose goal is to grow into a massive company, I do understand.

PES has to do what they feel is best for their company and their own vision and goals.

Customers, especially longtime supporters of the brand, have every right to be bummed or upset with them over it.

I'll give a good non-industry example. I love hats and used to be a big fan of the brand Boston Scally. When they started, they were very high quality, customer focused, and did a good job of making loyal customers feel like they were part of something. As they've grown, the quality has went down, sizing is inconsistent, and the customer service has went to absolute hell - in short, they went from being a high quality hat company that cared about its customers to a marketing company that happens to sell hats and doesn't give a crap about longtime or loyal customers. They simply don't care about the customers that helped make them successful because they sell so much now that they don't care if they lose customers bc their marketing spend will bring in a bunch for every one lost and the likely reduction in quality has probably increased their margin bigtime I would think. From a business side, I understand their decisions - but from a former loyal customer perspective, it was a real bummer to see a brand I used to really like go that direction.

That would be my overall issue, with all companies, treating customers like bic disposable razors at best and the wrapper on a plastic straw at worst.

In my alternate version of reality marketing would be nothing more than: this is what we have, it is good, take it or leave it. From that point on the product/service survives on MERIT/QUALITY/EFFECTIVENESS ALONE!!! Call it the "Ron Swanson" approach:

 

[slimsaw00]

I haven’t read every single post in here but it seems like (as someone else above mentioned), a company starts off in a particular light and then changes more into a lifestyle brand. PES only seems to be in the market for women. I know that’s not the case but I got tired of their IG always being women, and lifestyle. I feel like there may only be a couple brands aimed at men, building muscle and strength. Business wise a bigger audience makes sense but I lose interest. Just random thoughts.

 

[DBoss]

I will say that there have been few companies that went to a lifestyle brand but overtime u don't see their products anymore...latest being pes .I would see alot of their products everywhere from gnc to vitamin shoppe n smaller chains n now only thing I see is 3 different flavors of their protein...I always wonder if they did this to make more money why are they disappearing then? You would think they be bigger .

 

[sns8778]

I will say that there have been few companies that went to a lifestyle brand but overtime u don't see their products anymore...latest being pes .I would see alot of their products everywhere from gnc to vitamin shoppe n smaller chains n now only thing I see is 3 different flavors of their protein...I always wonder if they did this to make more money why are they disappearing then? You would think they be bigger .

I can answer your question - I'm in no way justifying the decisions that brands make, I can only offer industry insight as to why they make them.

The industry has changed dramatically - and a lot of that change hasn't been in positive ways.

How/where you saw brands used to be a good indicator as to how popular a brand was or how well they are doing, but that has changed a lot over the years.

Now days, the main focus of many brands is on direct to consumer sales, sales on Amazon, and sales in international markets.

In a lot of cases, even if it appears that a brand isn't doing well because you don't see them in smaller brick and mortars, they're likely doing better than ever, just through different channels.

As a lot of brands grow, they stop selling to smaller brick and mortars. It used to be that they would sell to distributors, who would then sell to the brick and mortars, but one of the major distributors to brick and mortars has had a lot of issues and its caused many brands to no longer sell to them. So that may be one reason you don't see some brands in smaller shops the way that you used to.

Direct to consumer marketing is the way a lot of brands go now because the profits are higher and with the higher profits, they can afford more advertising.

Also, many brands focus almost solely on Amazon now. It's sad, but there are Amazon brands that non-Amazon customers have never heard of that will probably do more volume in two weeks than a lot of great brands will do in a full year.

In PES's case, you see that their focus has been on all 3 of the things I mentioned - direct sales, Amazon, and international - and in doing so, their yearly sales and their profit margins are likely at the highest they've ever been.

Again, I want to emphasize that I'm not condoning anything, just answering your question.

As a customer, its always sad to see a brand you support in any industry go a direction that is opposite of why you supported them to begin with.

 

[DBoss]

I can answer your question - I'm in no way justifying the decisions that brands make, I can only offer industry insight as to why they make them.

The industry has changed dramatically - and a lot of that change hasn't been in positive ways.

How/where you saw brands used to be a good indicator as to how popular a brand was or how well they are doing, but that has changed a lot over the years.

Now days, the main focus of many brands is on direct to consumer sales, sales on Amazon, and sales in international markets.

In a lot of cases, even if it appears that a brand isn't doing well because you don't see them in smaller brick and mortars, they're likely doing better than ever, just through different channels.

As a lot of brands grow, they stop selling to smaller brick and mortars. It used to be that they would sell to distributors, who would then sell to the brick and mortars, but one of the major distributors to brick and mortars has had a lot of issues and its caused many brands to no longer sell to them. So that may be one reason you don't see some brands in smaller shops the way that you used to.

Direct to consumer marketing is the way a lot of brands go now because the profits are higher and with the higher profits, they can afford more advertising.

Also, many brands focus almost solely on Amazon now. It's sad, but there are Amazon brands that non-Amazon customers have never heard of that will probably do more volume in two weeks than a lot of great brands will do in a full year.

In PES's case, you see that their focus has been on all 3 of the things I mentioned - direct sales, Amazon, and international - and in doing so, their yearly sales and their profit margins are likely at the highest they've ever been.

Again, I want to emphasize that I'm not condoning anything, just answering your question.

As a customer, its always sad to see a brand you support in any industry go a direction that is opposite of why you supported them to begin with.

I appreciate ur in depth answer very well written and insightful.