Andromass

[Eric Potratz]

Agreed. Just because they are not methylated they can have terrible effects on HDL and LDL

300-500mg/week of test shows a mild/moderate reduction of HDL. So the effect of 428mg/week in related androgens wont be much different -- and it will be significantly less damaging than methylated orals.

 

[abformulations]

300-500mg/week of test shows a mild/moderate reduction of HDL. So the effect of 428mg/week in related androgens wont be much different -- and it will be significantly less damaging than methylated orals.

Eric i know u probably answered this already but i have a bottle of andromass and androlean. now can i run the andromass at full dose for 6weeks and adrolean on recommended dose for one bottle to last the 6weeks? i read that u dont have to go the full dose of andromass if stacking it but im curious. I want full effect especially for the price we paid. thanx

 

[Eric Potratz]

so then there will be actual reoccuring blood test done over a 12 hr time frame to get real numbers of what is in the blood from pre dosed levels?

Wouldn't you rather see bio-equivalency tests? Because we will have that verification within the next 8 weeks -- which will be a lot more relevant than bio-availability.

cause calculations based off of other studies are still guestimates.

Guestimates are made without substantial facts or evidence. A calculation is based on known facts.

I hope actual data from these compounds will be in the detailed subscription.

even with 100% absorbtion, conversion has to happen and it has to stay at the parent hormone for it to exert it's effects.

it's going to vary person to person. im sure bioavailability will be good with these.

pre dosing blood work compared to 1hr after administration, 2hr's after administration, 3hrs ect... will show users that the claims made are true.

but of course, this is asking too much, and would cause the product to be expensive. I dont really expect this from pp, im just saying, this would be the only way to come close to validating the claims of how much reaches the blood stream.

even then though, it's still a guestimate, d/t the whole conversion varying person to person.

Again, we really just need to take a sample and analyze for bio-equivalence and the injectable equivalence claims will be backed up.

It will be expensive but so was everything else with this project.

-Eric

 

[Eric Potratz]

But have these specific esterified versions ever been tested in people? Rats and humans can differ greatly pertaining to a steroid's in vivo characteristics. Don't you think it's a little rash to be releasing them before any human tests are done?

I'm only asking from a consumer standpoint

Totally understandable.

Yes, steroidal esters have been tested in multiple human and animal environments. Their behavior, safety and pharmacokinetics are well classified -- including enanthate esters which we are using with the AndroSeries products. This is probably the most popular and well characterized ester available.

-Eric

 

[Eric Potratz]

Eric i know u probably answered this already but i have a bottle of andromass and androlean. now can i run the andromass at full dose for 6weeks and adrolean on recommended dose for one bottle to last the 6weeks? i read that u dont have to go the full dose of andromass if stacking it but im curious. I want full effect especially for the price we paid. thanx

You could do 4 softgels per day of each product. That would be a good effective dose.

-Eric

 

[Bry17]

Totally understandable.

Yes, steroidal esters have been tested in multiple human and animal environments. Their behavior, safety and pharmacokinetics are well classified -- including enanthate esters which we are using with the AndroSeries products. This is probably the most popular and well characterized ester available.

-Eric

Pardon me for a second, but that doesn't answer my question. I know esters are widely studied and reported in different organisms but have these esterified compounds ever been tested in humans?

Thankyou for taking the time to answer these

 

[abformulations]

You could do 4 softgels per day of each product. That would be a good effective dose.

-Eric

OK thanx...so one bottle of each at 4 softgels perday would last 6weeks..And that would be 2 in the am and the other 6hours after (preworkout)?

 

[jbryand101b]

300-500mg/week of test shows a mild/moderate reduction of HDL. So the effect of 428mg/week in related androgens wont be much different -- and it will be significantly less damaging than methylated orals.

this is right. but, we aren't talking about just testosterone, we are also talking about 5a reduced boldenone, aka 1-testosterone.

I'm not sure about the cardiovascular effects of supraphysiological dosages administered to men & if they are more positive than negative, or visa versa.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Pardon me for a second, but that doesn't answer my question. I know esters are widely studied and reported in different organisms but have these esterified compounds ever been tested in humans?

Thankyou for taking the time to answer these

Yes -

Steroids in plasma and urine after i.m. injection of dehydroepiandrosterone-enanthate.
Menzel P, Oertel GW.
Arzneimittelforschung. 1971 Jul;21(7):1034-7. German. No abstract available.

Therapy of psoriasis with dehydroepiandrosterone-enanthate. II. Intramuscular depot application of 300 mg weekly (author's transl).
Holzmann H, Morsches B, Krapp R, Hoede N, Oertel GW.
Arch Dermatol Forsch. 1973;247(1):23-8. German. No abstract available.

Dehydroepiandrosterone enanthate and estradiol valerate for the treatment of menopause.
Grio R, Piacentino R, Rustichelli S, Marchino GL, Zaccheo F, Macchioni S.
Minerva Ginecol. 1986 Apr;38(4):317-9. Italian. No abstract available.

Administration of dehydroepiandrosterone enanthate to oophorectomized women--effects on sex hormones and lipid metabolism.
Mattson LA, Cullberg G, Tangkeo P, Zador G, Samsioe G.
Maturitas. 1980 Dec;2(4):301-9.

Effects of 7-keto dehydroepiandrosterone on voluntary ethanol intake in male rats.
Worrel ME, Gurkovskaya OV, Leonard ST, Lewis PB, Winsauer PJ.
Alcohol. 2010 Nov 3. [Epub ahead of print]

A randomized, double blind, placebo controlled study of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy overweight adults.
Kalman et al.
Curr Ther Res; 2000;67(7):435-442

A randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial to evaluate the thermogenic and body composition effects of 3-aceyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone clinical study final report
Kalman et a.
Curr Ther Res 200;67(7):435-442



Regarding 1-DHEA and 4-DHEA esterified varieties we are going to see the same effects as any steroidial ester seem above (or testosterone enanthate) -- they will all behave the same once they reach the blood stream.

Is there an effect you are particularly interested in?

-Eric

 

[Eric Potratz]

OK thanx...so one bottle of each at 4 softgels perday would last 6weeks..And that would be 2 in the am and the other 6hours after (preworkout)?

Yes. Two of each, twice daily.

-Eric

 

[abformulations]

Thanx eric. IK answering the same question over and over could get a little annoying lol...

 

[Eric Potratz]

this is right. but, we aren't talking about just testosterone, we are also talking about 5a reduced boldenone, aka 1-testosterone.

I'm not sure about the cardiovascular effects of supraphysiological dosages administered to men & if they are more positive than negative, or visa versa.

Effects on HDL gets worse as the dose goes higher. We dont see much difference with the 5a-reduced DHT, so I wouldnt expect lipids to be effected much differently by 1-testosterone. Besides, this was never reported to be a problem with regular 1-test until methyl-1-testosterone was released -- and that had serious issues.

-Eric

 

[Bry17]

Yes -

Steroids in plasma and urine after i.m. injection of dehydroepiandrosterone-enanthate.
Menzel P, Oertel GW.
Arzneimittelforschung. 1971 Jul;21(7):1034-7. German. No abstract available.

Therapy of psoriasis with dehydroepiandrosterone-enanthate. II. Intramuscular depot application of 300 mg weekly (author's transl).
Holzmann H, Morsches B, Krapp R, Hoede N, Oertel GW.
Arch Dermatol Forsch. 1973;247(1):23-8. German. No abstract available.

Dehydroepiandrosterone enanthate and estradiol valerate for the treatment of menopause.
Grio R, Piacentino R, Rustichelli S, Marchino GL, Zaccheo F, Macchioni S.
Minerva Ginecol. 1986 Apr;38(4):317-9. Italian. No abstract available.

Administration of dehydroepiandrosterone enanthate to oophorectomized women--effects on sex hormones and lipid metabolism.
Mattson LA, Cullberg G, Tangkeo P, Zador G, Samsioe G.
Maturitas. 1980 Dec;2(4):301-9.

Effects of 7-keto dehydroepiandrosterone on voluntary ethanol intake in male rats.
Worrel ME, Gurkovskaya OV, Leonard ST, Lewis PB, Winsauer PJ.
Alcohol. 2010 Nov 3. [Epub ahead of print]

A randomized, double blind, placebo controlled study of 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone in healthy overweight adults.
Kalman et al.
Curr Ther Res; 2000;67(7):435-442

A randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial to evaluate the thermogenic and body composition effects of 3-aceyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone clinical study final report
Kalman et a.
Curr Ther Res 200;67(7):435-442



Regarding 1-DHEA and 4-DHEA esterified varieties we are going to see the same effects as any steroidial ester seem above (or testosterone enanthate) -- they will all behave the same once they reach the blood stream.

Is there an effect you are particularly interested in?

-Eric

All of these are of straight dhea enanthate and 7-keto acetate

There are three left. 5,1, and 4 dhea enanthate. And these three variations have not been tested in humans as of yet correct? Only their unesterified versions?

 

[Eric Potratz]

All of these are of straight dhea enanthate and 7-keto acetate

There are three left. 5,1, and 4 dhea enanthate. And these three variations have not been tested in humans as of yet correct? Only their unesterified versions?

Correct, we are the first to bring these to market. At this point its we've only done the in-house testing, but this didn't involve measuring biceps or bodyweight like everyone wants to hear about -- we just examined the gastrointestinal effects.

-Eric

 

[Bry17]

Correct, we are the first to bring these to market. At this point its we've only done the in-house testing, but this didn't involve measuring biceps or bodyweight like everyone wants to hear about -- we just examined the gastrointestinal effects.

-Eric

Ok, thankyou.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Wait... actually Lleywellyn did esterified 1-testosterone and 4-ad in his ethergels... and that product worked pretty dang well.

 

[Bry17]

Wait... actually Lleywellyn did esterified 1-testosterone and 4-ad in his ethergels... and that product worked pretty dang well.

Are you talking about actual 1-test and 4-ad enanthate? Cause that's not of the same potency as a dhea derivative that has to convert twice...(one would assume anyway..) But then, this andromass is about delivery so maybe it can

 

[Eric Potratz]

Are you talking about actual 1-test and 4-ad enanthate? Cause that's not of the same potency as a dhea derivative that has to convert twice...(one would assume anyway..) But then, this andromass is about delivery so maybe it can

Yeah 1-test and 4-AD where more potent steroids, but we are delivery such a high dose of the DHEA isomers in AndroMass it will convert and people can easily reap similar or even better gains.

Just point out the fact that another company had done ester in oil before...

 

[nattydisaster]

300-500mg/week of test shows a mild/moderate reduction of HDL. So the effect of 428mg/week in related androgens wont be much different -- and it will be significantly less damaging than methylated orals.

600mg testosterone shows a much greater drop in HDL than compared to 600mg Nandrolone, which shows none. Thus it shows the parent steroid is the culprit of how HDL is effected

Yet nandrolone kills the blood vessel lining 11x more than testosterone

There is so much to consider before you can call a steroid safe, especially on the heart.

Im not saying the androseries are going to destroy HDL, but to say that they will not effect HDL without having actually tested it is a little misleading.

My example is to show that the androgenicity of a steroid is not the determinant of its effects on HDL

All of the questions in this thread should not be looked at as people going after Primordial Performance. They should be viewed as Primordial Performance's way to prove everyone how great their line is and how much research they have put into it. Questions are a good thing for a new line...as long as you have answers

 

[rulk22]

Yeah 1-test and 4-AD where more potent steroids, but we are delivery such a high dose of the DHEA isomers in AndroMass it will convert and people can easily reap similar or even better gains.

Just point out the fact that another company had done ester in oil before...

1Tu by Nutrex was my fav ph of all time and I regret not trying/stacking it with 4-AD. Andromass just may be my favorite once I try it.

 

[Eric Potratz]

600mg testosterone shows a much greater drop in HDL than compared to 600mg Nandrolone, which shows none. Thus it shows the parent steroid is the culprit of how HDL is effected

Yet nandrolone kills the blood vessel lining 11x more than testosterone

I have to see this reference...

There is so much to consider before you can call a steroid safe, especially on the heart.

Im not saying the androseries are going to destroy HDL, but to say that they will not effect HDL without having actually tested it is a little misleading.

My example is to show that the androgenicity of a steroid is not the determinant of its effects on HDL

All of the questions in this thread should not be looked at as people going after Primordial Performance. They should be viewed as Primordial Performance's way to prove everyone how great their line is and how much research they have put into it. Questions are a good thing for a new line...as long as you have answers

We say that AndroMass has 'minimal effect' on lipid levels, because relative to methylated steroids it is very minimal.

-Eric

 

[nattydisaster]

I have to see this reference...

-Eric

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17267145 I had that bookmarked, so there is that one. The other two I can find when I have time. They have been discussed before on here and other boards

 

[oufinny]

I have to see this reference...




We say that AndroMass has 'minimal effect' on lipid levels, because relative to methylated steroids it is very minimal.

-Eric

And if I don't want to buy your Toco-8 to run with it, what is an acceptable cycle support protocol that will provide adequate protection? Are we looking at solely taking support for cholestrol levels or do you recommend more such as those for BP? This I believe has not been adequately explained as not everyone will run Toco-8 as you recommend on your site.

 

[nattydisaster]

And if I don't want to buy your Toco-8 to run with it, what is an acceptable cycle support protocol that will provide adequate protection? Are we looking at solely taking support for cholestrol levels or do you recommend more such as those for BP? This I believe has not been adequately explained as not everyone will run Toco-8 as you recommend on your site.

Nothing beats time released niacin for raising HDL. You can buy it at Wal-Mart. 500mg before bed is a good dose.

It is available both as Rx and OTC. Usually doctors will prescribe the Rx before starting people on something like Lipitor.

I also take 600-1200mg NAC before bed

 

[nattydisaster]

After browsing one of the studies Eric posted, it appears that the compounds probably will not have drastic effects on HDL. So that is a relief. Thats always my biggest concern with prohormones.

They won't effect the liver

In my opinion I would just take 500mg TR Niacin before bed to combat possible effects on HDL. Great studies on Niacin and HDL

Now let's hope they are as anabolic as predicted!

I just wanted to give my opinion after looking into the studies. Lets get some logs up now

 

[nattydisaster]

I would also give a full week for these to build up in the body and start producing physiological effects based on another study I browsed

 

[jherman08]

Big fan of Turinabol-LV. Bit skeptical on these new products though. I see these being top sellers at GNC though :thumbsup:

 

[kingdong]

People thought they new what creating ethyl ester would do in the body too...

 

[rochabp]

i def wanna see how the logs go.

 

[jherman08]

i def wanna see how the logs go.

I would like to see someone who has experience running 500mg of test a week give this a go and compare.

 

[rulk22]

Just about everyone who is not running any of these is waiting for the logs to begin. If I can get my hands on the Androlean, this is most likely what ill run 1st, but man O man, I think im goin to love Andromass the most.

 

[Terencec]

Logs

All this talk about how to dose and so forth and safety issues is useless.
Best to wait for the logs, if it doesn't work everything is mute.

 

[JoHNnyNuTZ]

I plan on doing a detailed log of my Andromass/Androlean run. It wont be until around july though. We shall see

 

[Eric Potratz]

Big fan of Turinabol-LV. Bit skeptical on these new products though. I see these being top sellers at GNC though :thumbsup:

Ha! You will never see these in GNC!

 

[oufinny]

Ha! You will never see these in GNC!

Thank god for that...

 

[HereToStudy]

Ha! You will never see these in GNC!

God I ****ing love working for this company.

 

[Bry17]

Ha! You will never see these in GNC!

That's what they all say

 

[delreno]

In house testing was done on the delivery system to check for interactions with the gastrointestinal track but there is really no value in putting a few guys on the product to test the "effects". We have 80 years of scientific research on these steroids at our finger tips -- we know exactly how they are going to effect the body.

Besides, would it really mater to you if I said I put on 17lbs with AndroMass? The proof is in the pudding. You can see the action of steroids in history, and you will see it in about 8 weeks.

If you guys have concerns about side-effects, I can probably produce half a dozen references for every safety claim we make. Just ask for it. I can provide.

-Eric

this doesn't make any sense.If you were testing interactions with the gastrointestinal system why not take pre and after weight and other type of measurements,the way i see it if the study was done on the gastro sytem why not track other thing that are so easily monitored (ie) weight, strength ect,ect...im sorry this just does not add uprivateeye:rivateeye:
delreno

 

[Ev52]

this doesn't make any sense.If you were testing interactions with the gastrointestinal system why not take pre and after weight and other type of measurements,the way i see it if the study was done on the gastro sytem why not track other thing that are so easily monitored (ie) weight, strength ect,ect...im sorry this just does not add uprivateeye:rivateeye:
delreno

Testing the gastrointestinal system does not have to be done by guys popping pills. Humans were probably not involved.

 

[eatingisfun]

I plan on doing a detailed log of my Andromass/Androlean run. It wont be until around july though. We shall see

I hope someone will run bloods

 

[kingdong]

So has one human on this thread popped their first pill yet?

 

[HereToStudy]

So has one human on this thread popped their first pill yet?

The product has not been released yet.

 

[ryansm]

There will be plenty of logs coming out...

 

[Eric Potratz]

this doesn't make any sense.If you were testing interactions with the gastrointestinal system why not take pre and after weight and other type of measurements,the way i see it if the study was done on the gastro sytem why not track other thing that are so easily monitored (ie) weight, strength ect,ect...im sorry this just does not add uprivateeye:rivateeye:
delreno

Its just not something thats lucrative or cost effective for us to test. Plenty of double blind, placebo controlled studies have been done on lean mass and skeletal muscle gains with very sophisticated MRI techniques -- not something that would makes sense for us to duplicate. There is no question these steroids are going to build muscle.

Even more valuable than us making claims on our "in-house" testers will be the real users providing feedback in the very near future.

-Eric

 

[stankyleg]

The price on this stuff is insane. Real test is a fraction of the price. And we know it works

 

[BigBlackGuy]

Real test is a fraction of the price. And we know it works

We already know that, but thanks for the feedback :sigh1:

 

[swollen87]

hahahahahahaha @ dhea

 

[stankyleg]

hahahahahahaha @ dhea

I like Dermacrine, but I cant fathom that DHEA can be put into a form that gives gains like 500mg of TE

 

[Terencec]

Theory

Yes they can quote as many science medical references they want, everything is still theory. I have my money ready to go, but I am going to air a little on the side of prudence. When these logs come back with actual information such as I gained 10+ pounds of muscle I am going to be the first to order. Anything less for an expensive pro-hormone is going to be a fail.

 

[delreno]

Its just not something thats lucrative or cost effective for us to test. Plenty of double blind, placebo controlled studies have been done on lean mass and skeletal muscle gains with very sophisticated MRI techniques -- not something that would makes sense for us to duplicate. There is no question these steroids are going to build muscle.

Even more valuable than us making claims on our "in-house" testers will be the real users providing feedback in the very near future.

-Eric

ok fair inuff,now eric lets look at it this way for instance,.were talking about the deliver system (LV) is said to deliver things (ie)hormones better into the human system than say via the old method(transdermal). if we have a product like dermacrine and look at the current logs of people that have ran dermacrine transdermal vs the LV form you will note that there is a modest amount of good feed back from the dermal formula were as you have less positive feed back from the same people using the LV formula..make sense ?Im not trying to rain on your androseries party but these are valid veiw points that need to be adressed for the consumer.
delreno