1ifeblood Breaks On Through to the Other Side!

1ifeblood

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I still haven't found anything that says nolvadex effects breast tissue, just that it stops estro from binding to breast tissue receptors in order to halt growth. Which in and of itself is a positive effect for prevention measures, but if you've already got growth occurring I don't see by what mechanism it's able to reduce the tissue.
 

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Yep, nolva not necessarily the best SERM out there. Haven't used torem for gyno specifically but it's good stuff too.
We don't have to agree on everything, but one thing I know we agree on is that this log is gonna be fun in a real ghey kind of way.
is not about agreeing/disagreeing stance on everything bro - the conversation itself is stimulating, I enjoy conversing with you (and usually learn something in the process)
you are a knowledgeable dude -- as long as the topic is not hgh
:biglaugh:

Oh, Hey Snags..?
HAI there iowa! :wavey:
 
1ifeblood

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is not about agreeing/disagreeing stance on everything bro - the conversation itself is stimulating, I enjoy conversing with you (and usually learn something in the process)
you are a knowledgeable dude -- as long as the topic is not hgh
:biglaugh:

HAI! :wavey:
Just wanted to point out I got your 6000th post! \m/ . , . \m/
 
1ifeblood

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Do AIs really crush estro altogether? Surely some atomization still occurs at low doses. I found this study that shows a decrease of E2 at 48% using .5mg of arimidex daily. Which I would think with T levels increased and some aromatization still occurring, that would still allow plenty of estro activity. Which would explain why some guys can still get gyno on AIs.
 
1ifeblood

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Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.

Authors

Mauras N,*et al.*Show all

Journal

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7.

Affiliation

Nemours Research Programs at the Nemours Children's Clinic, Jacksonville, Florida 32207, USA. [email protected]

Comment in

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Apr;86(4):1836-8.

Abstract

We have shown that testosterone (T) deficiency per se is associated with marked catabolic effects on protein, calcium metabolism, and body composition in men independent of changes in GH or insulin-like growth factor I production. It is not clear,,however, whether estrogens have a major role in whole body anabolism in males. We investigated the metabolic effects of selective estrogen suppression in the male using a potent aromatase inhibitor, Arimidex (Anastrozole). First, a dose-response study of 12 males (mean age, 16.1 +/- 0.3 yr) was conducted, and blood withdrawn at baseline and after 10 days of oral Arimidex given as two different doses (either 0.5 or 1 mg) in random order with a 14-day washout in between. A sensitive estradiol (E2) assay showed an approximately 50% decrease in E2 concentrations with either of the two doses; hence, a 1-mg dose was selected for other studies. Subsequently, eight males (aged 15-22 yr; four adults and four late pubertal) had isotopic infusions of [(13)C]leucine and (42)Ca/(44)Ca, indirect calorimetry, dual energy x-ray absorptiometry, isokinetic dynamometry, and growth factors measurements performed before and after 10 weeks of daily doses of Arimidex. Contrary to the effects of T withdrawal, there were no significant changes in body composition (body mass index, fat mass, and fat-free mass) after estrogen suppression or in rates of protein synthesis or degradation; carbohydrate, lipid, or protein oxidation; muscle strength; calcium kinetics; or bone growth factors concentrations. However, E2 concentrations decreased 48% (P = 0.006), with no significant change in mean and peak GH concentrations, but with an 18% decrease in plasma insulin-like growth factor I concentrations. There was a 58% increase in serum T (P = 0.0001), sex hormone-binding globulin did not change, whereas LH and FSH concentrations increased (P < 0.02, both). Serum bone markers, osteocalcin and bone alkaline phosphatase concentrations, and rates of bone calcium deposition and resorption did not change. In conclusion, these data suggest that in the male 1) estrogens do not contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; 2) estrogen is a main regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis; and 3) this level of aromatase inhibition does not negatively impact either kinetically measured rates of bone calcium turnover or indirect markers of bone calcium turnover, at least in the short term. Further studies will provide valuable information on whether timed aromatase inhibition can be useful in increasing the height potential of pubertal boys with profound growth retardation without the confounding negative effects of gonadal androgen suppression.
 
iparatroop

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is not about agreeing/disagreeing stance on everything bro - the conversation itself is stimulating, I enjoy conversing with you (and usually learn something in the process)
you are a knowledgeable dude -- as long as the topic is not hgh
:biglaugh:
Learning is fun. I know it's not all about agreeing. We can all learn something, hopefully, in our quests to become better.
Thanks for the compliment. You, yourself, are pretty well versed and many of us can learn from you.
As far as HGH, that shizz is EXPENSIVE, and that is about all I need to know until I hit the lotto.
 
1ifeblood

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Learning is fun. I know it's not all about agreeing. We can all learn something, hopefully, in our quests to become better.
Thanks for the compliment. You, yourself, are pretty well versed and many of us can learn from you.
As far as HGH, that shizz is EXPENSIVE, and that is about all I need to know until I hit the lotto.
And I've got a LOT to learn! Which is why I'm glad I've got you guys here to help me through it. Now is my thinking on the right track or am I completely missing something?
 
Montego1

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Low doses won't crush your levels on a cycle but each ai will effect you differently. Letro being the strongest in my experience. Low dose ai off cycle could possibly get them a bit too low but you need blood work to see how YOU react. With 1800 t levels I was at 30 estro using .25 mg adex twice a week. I didn't expect my t level to be that high or another .25mg would have been added. Keep in recommended dose while dballing though.
 
Montego1

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If not slightly higher
 
1ifeblood

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Low doses won't crush your levels on a cycle but each ai will effect you differently. Letro being the strongest in my experience. Low dose ai off cycle could possibly get them a bit too low but you need blood work to see how YOU react. With 1800 t levels I was at 30 estro using .25 mg adex twice a week. I didn't expect my t level to be that high or another .25mg would have been added. Keep in recommended dose while dballing though.
Isn't that right where you want to be? 25-50 is considered a good range to be isn't it? I was planning on .25mg/day while on dbol then dropping back to eod.
 
Montego1

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Isn't that right where you want to be? 25-50 is considered a good range to be isn't it? I was planning on .25mg/day while on dbol then dropping back to eod.
Anything higher then 30 isn't good for me. I like the low 20 range. That dose while Bolling should be safe.

Anabolics, AIs and the such are HIGHLY individualized. Better know your body well. And I wish I had seen your layout earlier. Straight test is what I would have suggested.
 
Montego1

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Lean bulking I would have said just test at 500 for 14 weeks. Especially for a first. This is a first right?
 
1ifeblood

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Montego1

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Well. I'll be honest. Your don't know how you will react to just the test. So say your start getting gyno symptoms. ... is it the test or the dbol? Is it too much test with not enough ai? Or is the dbol pushing you over? To much dbol? See what I'm saying? Just test would put 15 on you at least. Save extras for hard gains down the road.
 
1ifeblood

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Anything higher then 30 isn't good for me. I like the low 20 range. That dose while Bolling should be safe.

Anabolics, AIs and the such are HIGHLY individualized. Better know your body well. And I wish I had seen your layout earlier. Straight test is what I would have suggested.
I actually am very aware of how my mind and body is reacting. I've had a lot of experience with mood and mental experimentation so I'm confident with my awareness in that aspect. Since symptoms of unbalanced hormone levels carry a distinct affect on these aspects, I feel comfortable with my ability to spot something being off. And the fact that I have a plethora (yes I said plethora) of knowledgeable minds backing me up, this is set up to be one kickass first cycle! :-D
 
Montego1

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Just keeping it real. Everyone on here can tell you this and that and you will be fine if you do this but in the end it's all guessing cause they can't know how your body will react. Just looking out for you homie.
 
Montego1

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I actually am very aware of how my mind and body is reacting. I've had a lot of experience with mood and mental experimentation so I'm confident with my awareness in that aspect. Since symptoms of unbalanced hormone levels carry a distinct affect on these aspects, I feel comfortable with my ability to spot something being off. And the fact that I have a plethora (yes I said plethora) of knowledgeable minds backing me up, this is set up to be one kickass first cycle! :-D
But you don't know how one of these things will effect you. Just be careful lol
 
1ifeblood

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Well. I'll be honest. Your don't know how you will react to just the test. So say your start getting gyno symptoms. ... is it the test or the dbol? Is it too much test with not enough ai? Or is the dbol pushing you over? To much dbol? See what I'm saying? Just test would put 15 on you at least. Save extras for hard gains down the road.
I see what you're saying bro and appreciate the concern! I guess I figured that Dbol has such a short active life that I can manage it quickly and effectively. If I was trying to do the cycle reactively instead of proactively (only using AI/SERM if I start to get sides) then I would definitely do them individually to assess my reaction to them. But after reading through so many first cycle logs I just felt like I would have a clear understanding of how the Dbol is affecting me (because it kicks in so quickly) as opposed to how the Test is affecting me (since the dbol will be out of my system by the time it's really kicked in). Now I know my thinking is plagued with noobism so I could be WAY off and of course I'll defer to the concensus of those wiser than me. But at least tell me if I'm in the general vicinity.
 
Montego1

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I see what you're saying bro and appreciate the concern! I guess I figured that Dbol has such a short active life that I can manage it quickly and effectively. If I was trying to do the cycle reactively instead of proactively (only using AI/SERM if I start to get sides) then I would definitely do them individually to assess my reaction to them. But after reading through so many first cycle logs I just felt like I would have a clear understanding of how the Dbol is affecting me (because it kicks in so quickly) as opposed to how the Test is affecting me (since the dbol will be out of my system by the time it's really kicked in). Now I know my thinking is plagued with noobism so I could be WAY off and of course I'll defer to the concensus of those wiser than me. But at least tell me if I'm in the general vicinity.
Basicly yes you are correct :)
 
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Good lord this has turned into anything but a log!! The guys done some work and gotten some input now lets let him make the desicion and grow! Monte is right- its your body bro and you can read all the studies in the world but they wont tell you how lifeblood will react.

You can get an idea and understand what the drugs/hormones do in your body- but only YOU can tell by your experience the effectiveness of before mentioned compounds.

Now start pinning logging and doin work. If you have any questions come back and we will help you out!
 
1ifeblood

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Good lord this has turned into anything but a log!! The guys done some work and gotten some input now lets let him make the desicion and grow! Monte is right- its your body bro and you can read all the studies in the world but they wont tell you how lifeblood will react.

You can get an idea and understand what the drugs/hormones do in your body- but only YOU can tell by your experience the effectiveness of before mentioned compounds.

Now start pinning logging and doin work. If you have any questions come back and we will help you out!
I can't really do much atm since we're still playing the waiting game and I can't start until September anyway because the wife and I are going out for our 1 year anniversary. Since there's no way in H-E-double-hockey-sticks that I'm gonna drink on dbol, I'll have to wait until afterwards to start. So by all means let's discuss cool stuff about roids until then!
 
MrKleen73

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For learning more about how you react, straight test is the way to go. If you just want to grow moreso than the learning experience the DBol is gonna be fine too. Either way as a cycle it will be effective but for drawing any conclusion for a baseline you are already dealing with 2 variables neither of which do you have prior experience with.

I do agree with Monte that 500 for 14 weeks on your first run would be more than enough to add good size and teach you about your levels. On the same note you have a good group of supporters here so you will be "safe" as in you have some people who can help you get out of a pickle but it will all be guesswork based on what works for them and what studies say worked in a controlled environment.

As far as the way that the SERMS work on the breast tissue they were designed to do this for treating breast cancer. Blocking the estrogen receptor is effectively the same as lowering or eradicating the E levels to the tissue that is blocked. If you starve the breast tissue of Estrogen it will shrink, however in most cases it will not go away it just becomes smaller until stimulated by enough E to make it swell or begin to grow again.

That being said... Some people do say if you keep it starved of estrogen long enough the cells will die off, and I can not speak to that other than to say as far as I know it is anecdotal in nature. However many things in the bodybuilding realm are anecdotal in nature and are extremely repeatable by body builders everywhere. Simply because science has not done a study to prove it is possible under certain circumstances does not mean that it is not. The length of time it may take and uncomfortable nature of that situation makes it something many will not attempt. I have heard that some breast tissue necrosis can take place via 4-6 weeks of eradication of E but the people who mentioned this to me explained it is a miserable experience.
 
1ifeblood

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For learning more about how you react, straight test is the way to go. If you just want to grow moreso than the learning experience the DBol is gonna be fine too. Either way as a cycle it will be effective but for drawing any conclusion for a baseline you are already dealing with 2 variables neither of which do you have prior experience with.

I do agree with Monte that 500 for 14 weeks on your first run would be more than enough to add good size and teach you about your levels. On the same note you have a good group of supporters here so you will be "safe" as in you have some people who can help you get out of a pickle but it will all be guesswork based on what works for them and what studies say worked in a controlled environment.

As far as the way that the SERMS work on the breast tissue they were designed to do this for treating breast cancer. Blocking the estrogen receptor is effectively the same as lowering or eradicating the E levels to the tissue that is blocked. If you starve the breast tissue of Estrogen it will shrink, however in most cases it will not go away it just becomes smaller until stimulated by enough E to make it swell or begin to grow again.

That being said... Some people do say if you keep it starved of estrogen long enough the cells will die off, and I can not speak to that other than to say as far as I know it is anecdotal in nature. However many things in the bodybuilding realm are anecdotal in nature and are extremely repeatable by body builders everywhere. Simply because science has not done a study to prove it is possible under certain circumstances does not mean that it is not. The length of time it may take and uncomfortable nature of that situation makes it something many will not attempt. I have heard that some breast tissue necrosis can take place via 4-6 weeks of eradication of E but the people who mentioned this to me explained it is a miserable experience.
Glad I read this before I unsubbed. Lol. Last thing I want to read is a bioscience or personal preference debate with no real purpose! Kleen for king!
 
1ifeblood

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For learning more about how you react, straight test is the way to go. If you just want to grow moreso than the learning experience the DBol is gonna be fine too. Either way as a cycle it will be effective but for drawing any conclusion for a baseline you are already dealing with 2 variables neither of which do you have prior experience with.

I do agree with Monte that 500 for 14 weeks on your first run would be more than enough to add good size and teach you about your levels. On the same note you have a good group of supporters here so you will be "safe" as in you have some people who can help you get out of a pickle but it will all be guesswork based on what works for them and what studies say worked in a controlled environment.

As far as the way that the SERMS work on the breast tissue they were designed to do this for treating breast cancer. Blocking the estrogen receptor is effectively the same as lowering or eradicating the E levels to the tissue that is blocked. If you starve the breast tissue of Estrogen it will shrink, however in most cases it will not go away it just becomes smaller until stimulated by enough E to make it swell or begin to grow again.

That being said... Some people do say if you keep it starved of estrogen long enough the cells will die off, and I can not speak to that other than to say as far as I know it is anecdotal in nature. However many things in the bodybuilding realm are anecdotal in nature and are extremely repeatable by body builders everywhere. Simply because science has not done a study to prove it is possible under certain circumstances does not mean that it is not. The length of time it may take and uncomfortable nature of that situation makes it something many will not attempt. I have heard that some breast tissue necrosis can take place via 4-6 weeks of eradication of E but the people who mentioned this to me explained it is a miserable experience.
Everything you just said... makes a lot of sense!
 
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Everything you just said... makes a lot of sense!
Big thumbs up. Kleen is a wealth of knowledge with both science and experience under his belt.

He has been a mentor to me over the years.
 
1ifeblood

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Glad I read this before I unsubbed. Lol. Last thing I want to read is a bioscience or personal preference debate with no real purpose! Kleen for king!
You can't quit me.
 
1ifeblood

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Sooo when do the log updates start? :)
 
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MrKleen73

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Glad I read this before I unsubbed. Lol. Last thing I want to read is a bioscience or personal preference debate with no real purpose! Kleen for king!
Do I get a bullet proof limo? That would be so cool! :)
Everything you just said... makes a lot of sense!
Glad to hear it. Sometimes the thoughts come out in a big jumble.
Big thumbs up. Kleen is a wealth of knowledge with both science and experience under his belt.

He has been a mentor to me over the years.
Thanks that is a big compliment coming from you!

Shît 1ife you know I love you like a fat kid loves cake!
Oooh... that's like a LOT, right?
Pretty much the only thing a fat kid loves more than cake is...

CAKE AND ICE CREAM!
 
1ifeblood

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Silly boys and your gyno... Lets get to the gains here!
Believe me, I WANT TO! I'm so freakin' anxious to get on it I have to remind myself every morning that I've still got a couple weeks to go. I've been hitting PRs in the gym just from THINKING about it!
 
1ifeblood

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Do I get a bullet proof limo? That would be so cool! :)

Glad to hear it. Sometimes the thoughts come out in a big jumble.

Thanks that is a big compliment coming from you!

Pretty much the only thing a fat kid loves more than cake is...

CAKE AND ICE CREAM!
Lol! So fuh king hilarious!
 
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Believe me, I WANT TO! I'm so freakin' anxious to get on it I have to remind myself every morning that I've still got a couple weeks to go. I've been hitting PRs in the gym just from THINKING about it!
Oh that amazing feeling you get right before the first cycle! I rode that high all through my cycle. You will kill this shiz!
 
MrKleen73

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I don't remember saying sexy and chiseled... ;)
Hey so that is what you call "Harmless Flirting" don't even expect any special attention from me tonight Mister... WAIT WUT?
 

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