DMA Does DMZ Demigod Style (unsponsored)

[MrKleen73]

hey abe, how would running dermacrine and trest be for a more all-around base? am I correct in hearing that dermacrine has anti-estrogeninc properties?

I wouldn't run the two together get a Stano type product instead to run with TR3ST or run Dermacrine with some... Dermacrine will bloat you up pretty bad just like TR3ST and the AI in it is very very mild and won't do much to keep estro down.

I find it would hit all the bases the two together, and dermacrine has a built in AI so it does have anti-e capabilities, but trest is fairly strong so form could be a better option

sounds good. thanks! how high of a dose should I go with the dermatrest? if i got one bottle, i could run 75 through the whole cycle, but I know some people run much much higher. just don't want to overshoot, as it can be really expensive.

If just a test base 50 should be enough if not more than enough.

Yeah, I'm lucky my wife is going through a lull in the sack too. She goes up and down, but when it's on fire it's on fire for weeks. I just feel like I could care less right now. Everything still works good though, but no intensity. Getting my rocks off in the gym though, WHEW!!

Eh well if everything is working then now worries especially if she is in a down period.

 

[Dma378]

Yeah, it's just incentive to get bigger and irresistible to her!!!

 

[HardEarned]

nice BB shoulder press numbers!!!

 

[Dma378]

nice BB shoulder press numbers!!!

Thanks man!!

 

[Dma378]

So it's Day 12 and the scale hasn't budged a pound. Was up 1 yesterday, but back to 187 today. I have upped my calories from 2700 to 3100. I am noticeably harder and more dense though. So there is definitely a recomp affect taking place. I have lost almost all jiggle of the belly I may have had left, and what was 2 or 3 veins in the lower abs is now 6 or 8 pronounced ones. Not to mention the strength, aggression and pumps. I just didn't get that initial 4-5 pound glycogen retention weight gain. Not that that's a bad thing. Going to keep calories here for now, but cut out the little bit of cardio I am doing. I walk my dogs every night for about 20 minutes, so that will be the extent of it. This is a bowl, not a plate, so you can't see the depth. 767 calorie dinner.

I'll skip the workout details today. It was a killer Chest and Triceps though. The highlight was weighted dips with 90lbs. x 6, 6, 5, 4. Two plates hurts the hips a little, but the ego is boosted. Drop sets HS Press, Standing Skullcrushers, Close Grip Bench, DB Pullovers, Single Arm Cable Extensions, Tricep Rope drop sets, and Leg Raises.

Rest tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be sore somewhere. Oh yeah, the recovery is in full affect as well. Can't seem to get sore.

 

[tommurph]

Wow, 90lb dips, amazing! I have trouble with dips and hand placement on the bar. It seems I can't get the right angle for there to be no pain in my hands. Great work man!

 

[zcol94]

So it's Day 12 and the scale hasn't budged a pound. Was up 1 yesterday, but back to 187 today. I have upped my calories from 2700 to 3100. I am noticeably harder and more dense though. So there is definitely a recomp affect taking place. I have lost almost all jiggle of the belly I may have had left, and what was 2 or 3 veins in the lower abs is now 6 or 8 pronounced ones. Not to mention the strength, aggression and pumps. I just didn't get that initial 4-5 pound glycogen retention weight gain. Not that that's a bad thing. Going to keep calories here for now, but cut out the little bit of cardio I am doing. I walk my dogs every night for about 20 minutes, so that will be the extent of it. This is a bowl, not a plate, so you can't see the depth. 767 calorie dinner. <img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=108881"/> I'll skip the workout details today. It was a killer Chest and Triceps though. The highlight was weighted dips with 90lbs. x 6, 6, 5, 4. Two plates hurts the hips a little, but the ego is boosted. Drop sets HS Press, Standing Skullcrushers, Close Grip Bench, DB Pullovers, Single Arm Cable Extensions, Tricep Rope drop sets, and Leg Raises. Rest tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be sore somewhere. Oh yeah, the recovery is in full affect as well. Can't seem to get sore.

are you dosing your elim1nate daily?

 

[Dma378]

Wow, 90lb dips, amazing! I have trouble with dips and hand placement on the bar. It seems I can't get the right angle for there to be no pain in my hands. Great work man!

I've always been good at dips. I have a bad wrist myself, but turned that direction doesn't bother me. It's actually the straight hand position like on Bench Press that it hurts the worst. I think that's why I can be so strong on dips, but my bench lags.

 

[Dma378]

are you dosing your elim1nate daily?

I was until a couple days ago. 50mg/day. The last 2 days I have not. I am going to keep it as an as needed thing instead of part of the daily regiment. Don't think the DMZ will cause much concern, only the Dermacrine once I bump it up.

 

[zcol94]

The eliminate could be part of the reason you haven't gained weight.. The water weight lost from the arimistane could have countered the weight gained from glycogen retention

 

[Dma378]

The eliminate could be part of the reason you haven't gained weight.. The water weight lost from the arimistane could have countered the weight gained from glycogen retention

My thoughts as well. We'll see what happens in the next week or so.

 

[zcol94]

I'll definitely be watching, this is the cycle I'm planning to do in a couple months but I can't decide if I want to go with dermacrine or dermatrest

 

[BigRed1974]

Nice job on the dips and eats!!
I have decided to go the dermacrine route for my DMZ cycle.

 

[Dma378]

Nice job on the dips and eats!!
I have decided to go the dermacrine route for my DMZ cycle.

Thanks man. It's easy to eat like this when the kids aren't home for dinner. Night before was chili-dogs and tater tots!! Which is one of our faves, but more like 1100 calories.

 

[Abe Lincoln]

Sounds like good eating to me! I do enjoy cutting, but bulking and getting bigger isn't too bad either

 

[MrKleen73]

Hey man same body weight and obviously leaner sounds like winning to me!!! You wanna see temporary weight gain do a carb up and watch everything fill up like you expected. It won't hurt and could actually help with metabolism.

 

[Dma378]

Hey man same body weight and obviously leaner sounds like winning to me!!! You wanna see temporary weight gain do a carb up and watch everything fill up like you expected. It won't hurt and could actually help with metabolism.

Funny you said that. I ate 2 English muffins and a bowl of oatmeal AFTER dinner. Overshot my calories, but got a ton of extra carbs in. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Abe Lincoln]

Hell even though I'm cutting carbs is my highest macro, for grueling workouts and strength training it is ideal, plus it is great at conserving muscle maybe more so than protein, IMO

 

[Swolbraham]

As my coach once told me, "I've never met a carb I didn't like"

 

[MrKleen73]

Hell even though I'm cutting carbs is my highest macro, for grueling workouts and strength training it is ideal, plus it is great at conserving muscle maybe more so than protein, IMO

Carbs are absolutely more muscle sparing than protein or fat. Many just have a hard time controlling them during a cut. However keto is the fastest way to burn fat and you won't lose muscle that way either if done correctly. Not really a lot of wrong ways to go about it so much as a lot of preferences.

 

[Abe Lincoln]

So far I haven't had any issues controlling y carb intake, I have done keto in the past and it was very effective, but I felt like I didn't have all the potential strength I could have. I will end up using it down the road at the end of my cut.

 

[NattyForLife]

Carbs are absolutely more muscle sparing than protein or fat. Many just have a hard time controlling them during a cut. However keto is the fastest way to burn fat and you won't lose muscle that way either if done correctly. Not really a lot of wrong ways to go about it so much as a lot of preferences.

Keto for natty people= a big no no!

 

[Abe Lincoln]

Lol why so Natty?

 

[MrKleen73]

So far I haven't had any issues controlling y carb intake, I have done keto in the past and it was very effective, but I felt like I didn't have all the potential strength I could have. I will end up using it down the road at the end of my cut.

Yes if you are controlling them and having great results you will feel stronger and perform better. Keto isn't about performance it is about aesthetics and health recovery. So many markers improve with a period of keto plus it is great right before going into a bulk to maximize insulin sensitivity.

 

[MrKleen73]

Keto for natty people= a big no no!

I don't agree with that statement but would be curious to hear why you think so. Also why you think there is a difference other than the well known super physiological recovery levels on anabolics as to keto being a bad or good thing for one or the other.

 

[NattyForLife]

Lol why so Natty?

Because, as you just said that carbs are very muscle sparing, so take away carbs and there you have it!

 

[Abe Lincoln]

Health recovery? Yeah I think a two week period of keto at the end of my cut will be pretty effective... The science behind keto is pretty solid, so I will need to do some research on it again

 

[NattyForLife]

Health recovery? Yeah I think a two week period of keto at the end of my cut will be pretty effective... The science behind keto is pretty solid, so I will need to do some research on it again

Not saying that keto doesnt work! It works amazinf actually! Just saying for someone not using PEDs, keto can be more muscle wasting then regular diet!

 

[Abe Lincoln]

I think it depends on what type of keto you do CKD is the more effective I think as it is just carb cycling

 

[MrKleen73]

Considering everyone I know increases protein drastically on keto I don't see how that really becomes a factor and have plenty experience in the matter. You remove the carbs you replace them with extra protein and higher fat. The extra protein is there for several reasons one of which being avoidance of muscle breakdown due to plenty protein in the system at all times, another is to increase TEF or thermic effect of food, and the third is to increase satiety. Also with adequate calories (IE so long as the body does not think it is actually starving) it will not break down muscle for energy. Especially when there is fat present to use as it is a MUCH more efficient source of energy. It is far easier to convert into energy, requires less calories to digest than protein and provides 3 times the energy per gram when you consider the high TEF of protein. That is a simple dietary adjustment and not a reason to say keto is not good for natural lifters. So long as not starving oneself the only time one needs to worry about protein being catabolized is if they allow cortisol to get out of control.

 

[MrKleen73]

No tone intended if it reads like that by the way just conversation.

 

[Abe Lincoln]

And BPS has a great cortisol manager called Elimistane! Haha

Yeah I have used keto before and to say the least I was bone dry. 8%bf. Not so sure on using it for long periods of time, rather have performance most of the time and later on get the full aesthetic look.

 

[MrKleen73]

The real reason that carbs are protein sparing is that they produce a larger insulin response. Insulin shuts down or blunts catabolism fast however when not starving most of the catabolism is fat being broken down for energy. Glucagon and Insulin are opposing hormones. Glucagon is catabolic, but it preserves muscle mass and creates a catabolic environment to fat specifically. When the balance tips to insulin which is anabolic as hell then catabolism is halted or blunted this includes fat burning. Since Glucagon preferentially tears down fat for energy while preserving muscle tissue this means you are slowing down the burning of fat but not really effecting the break down of muscle as it is minimal at best. Unless starving... Additional protein in the diet is more than enough to void out any catabolic effect that may trickle over to the muscle. However don't expect to grow much or for that matter recomp on keto as a natural. Save it for when you are full on cutting or trying to increase insulin sensitivity.

 

[NattyForLife]

Considering everyone I know increases protein drastically on keto I don't see how that really becomes a factor and have plenty experience in the matter. You remove the carbs you replace them with extra protein and higher fat. The extra protein is there for several reasons one of which being avoidance of muscle breakdown due to plenty protein in the system at all times, another is to increase TEF or thermic effect of food, and the third is to increase satiety. Also with adequate calories (IE so long as the body does not think it is actually starving) it will not break down muscle for energy. Especially when there is fat present to use as it is a MUCH more efficient source of energy. It is far easier to convert into energy, requires less calories to digest than protein and provides 3 times the energy per gram when you consider the high TEF of protein. That is a simple dietary adjustment and not a reason to say keto is not good for natural lifters. So long as not starving oneself the only time one needs to worry about protein being catabolized is if they allow cortisol to get out of control.

The real reason that carbs are protein sparing is that they produce a larger insulin response. Insulin shuts down or blunts catabolism fast however when not starving most of the catabolism is fat being broken down for energy. Glucagon and Insulin are opposing hormones. Glucagon is catabolic, but it preserves muscle mass and creates a catabolic environment to fat specifically. When the balance tips to insulin which is anabolic as hell then catabolism is halted or blunted this includes fat burning. Since Glucagon preferentially tears down fat for energy while preserving muscle tissue this means you are slowing down the burning of fat but not really effecting the break down of muscle as it is minimal at best. Unless starving... Additional protein in the diet is more than enough to void out any catabolic effect that may trickle over to the muscle. However don't expect to grow much or for that matter recomp on keto. Save it for when you are full on cutting or trying to increase insulin sensitivity.

I agree with everything you have said, but if im not mistaken, to high of a protein intake can keep you from going into ketosis! Just what i have read! (Not to sure on that though)

 

[MrKleen73]

I agree with everything you have said, but if im not mistaken, to high of a protein intake can keep you from going into ketosis! Just what i have read! (Not to sure on that though)

Oh certainly if you go too high. Protein being broken down via gluconeogenisis will be broken down to glutamine then broken down to ATP. However again that would be in a case of very high protein (1.5+ grams per lb of body mass, and often higher). While also taking in very low amounts of fats so that the body was being forced to break down protein to create ATP. Typically that would also be a diet entirely to low in calories. However ketosis as in measurable ketosis is not required for optimal fat loss and if using the ketones created you may never actually measure a ketone in your urine. That is when there is a waste of ketones being broken down and not used. So if we are speaking strictly about measurable ketosis and not just keeping usable carbs below 35-50g a day then someone still taking in 1.25g per lbm or even body weight would be getting adequate protein with proper amounts of fat intake to avoid protein breakdown should still be able to achieve ketosis. A lot of people forget to get the body stoked to burn fat you have to feed it some. If it doesn't see any coming in it will choose to preserve what it has and go after the muscle tissue and save what fat it can for when the famine gets worse.

Granted someone on Tren could run a "keto" like 400-500g protein, and 35-40g fat and carbs and not lose much muscle at all because tren is the most anti-catabolic compound ever which s why it is so good for dieting.

 

[HardEarned]

I love carbs for the protein sparing effect. I also like to see my muscles swell with glycogen and water. Makes me look bigger!

Can I ask whats with the sweet potatoes? I see so many body builders swear by sweat potatoes. why?

 

[HardEarned]

Cortisol in the absence of insulin will also encourage fat metabolism. Where as,( even though cortisol is blunted somewhat by insulin) if insulin and cortisol are present at the same time, than cortisol will target muscle tissue as well.

 

[Abe Lincoln]

Any good reads on keto diet? I think lyle mcdonald has a book on it?

 

[Dma378]

It's funny how fast the body reacts to what you put in it. I definitely feel and even look fuller from an excess of calories and carbs last night. Took the kids and some friends to a haunted pirate ship in the neighborhood after dinner and we went to a build your own frozen yogurt joint afterwards. So lets just say I said "F**K IT!!!" and built the meanest, nastiest, richest bowl of frozen yogurt and toppings I could come up with. Peanut Butter cups, yogurts chips, PB chips, Almond Rocha, Cheesecake Bites, hot caramel, and graham cracker crust crumbles on top of my Cake Batter yogurt. I should have taken a picture. It was ridiculous. At a place where they charge by weight. Guarantee it was 2000 calories. Needless to say, I feel like sh1t today. Taste buds were in heaven though. Back to the grind.

 

[Abe Lincoln]

So true^. People can drop crazy amounts of water weight in only a day by what they do/take in.

 

[Dma378]

Woke up yesterday with a little soreness in my lower back. Not from working out or anything, like a slight strain. I have tweaked it a couple times in the past and have battled some bouts of tightness and immobility. So it's nothing new to have a bad day. Woke up this morning and it's good, no sign of it. But it killed my plans to do squats yesterday. I tried. Put 1 set of 135 on the bar and was going to keep it light, but decided that was stupid.

DB Shoulder Press:
45's x 12
60's x 8
70's x 6
70's x 6
70's x 5
60's x 6

Upright Rows:
95 x 12
115 x 10, 10 10
Super Set
DB Reverse Flys:
20's x 15
25's x 13, 13, 12

HS Shoulder Press drop sets:
70 each side x 10 drop to 45 x failure x 4 sets
Super Set
DB Trap Raises w/ 10's x 4 sets

1 set of Squats 135 x 10

Single Leg Press / Calf Raises x 5 sets

Single Leg Ham Curls x 4 sets

Roman Chair Back Extensions x 3 sets just to stretch the lower back a little.

Then I went and ate about 20 Fun Size candy bars, but I planned for it so I barely overshot my calorie goal of 3100. Hit 3165

 

[tommurph]

Nice work man! Are you sure your not getting a little back pumps? I've had them slightly on this cycle of Stenadrol/tr3st, but nothing too bothering. My last cycle of epi/tren I had terrible back pumps!

 

[Dma378]

Nice work man! Are you sure your not getting a little back pumps? I've had them slightly on this cycle of Stenadrol/tr3st, but nothing too bothering. My last cycle of epi/tren I had terrible back pumps!

No it's not back pumps. I know that feeling. It's a legit sore back. Msten gave me bad back pumps.

 

[Dma378]

So I got up with my wife this morning to go to her workout group that she does a few days a week. It's called Stroller Strides. Bunch of moms with babies that get together at the park and workout together. Well on Saturdays you can bring your husband, so she dragged me along. These ladies just earned my total respect. Had me sweating like a rookie. Nice little bonding workout with the wifey, but now I'm off to crank out a Back and Biceps workout. Been a while since I've done Back and Bi's only. It's gonna be a pump and flex fest!!!

 

[tommurph]

So I got up with my wife this morning to go to her workout group that she does a few days a week. It's called Stroller Strides. Bunch of moms with babies that get together at the park and workout together. Well on Saturdays you can bring your husband, so she dragged me along. These ladies just earned my total respect. Had me sweating like a rookie. Nice little bonding workout with the wifey, but now I'm off to crank out a Back and Biceps workout. Been a while since I've done Back and Bi's only. It's gonna be a pump and flex fest!!!

Fun day man! I'm doing back and bi's myself this evening!

 

[Dma378]

So 2 full weeks into this cycle, 8 days using Dermacrine. Aside from the occasional BP spikes and sleeplessness, I am experiencing a little psychological effect. No nonsense is the best way to put it. A little too serious for my liking. Just feel a little zoned out. I am only truly happy when I'm pumping iron. But I'm aware of it, and I need to try and tame it.

Seeing some more body composition changes. When I hold my arms out in front of me with or without weights, there is a true separation between bicep, tricep and delts. Some striations in the shoulders are coming through even when not under tension. And with focusing on hitting Reverse Flys twice a week, I am starting to get a little rear-delt formation. Vascularity is ridiculous. My wife's friend asked her what I'm on because of the veins on constant pump!!

Today's workout was indeed Pumptastic!!

Kroc Rows:
60lb. DB x 10 (warm up)
90lb. DB x 10
105lb. DB x 8
110lb. DB x 7
115lb. DB x 5
115lb. DB x 5 (going to try to add 5lbs. each time I do these)

Pendlay Rows:
185 x 7
205 x 6
205 x 6
205 x 6

Underhand BB Rows:
135 x 12 x 4 sets

Close Grip (palms facing each other) Pull Down:
130 x 8 x 4 sets
Super Set
Standing Cable Pull Down w/ Rope:
70 x 12 x 4 sets

Spider Curls (with 4 second hold) / Underhand Front Raise (with 2 second hold) Super Set x 4 sets

Preacher Machine drop sets:
105 x 10 drop to 60 x failure x 4 sets (w/ half reps and random pauses)

Arms were on fire.

And scale still says 187. No change since day 1. Obviously I would gain if I ate more, but I don't want to. 3100 cals is a good enough amount of food. Keeping it clean I feel good. It's enough that I'm gaining strength. And recomping like a mofo.

 

[tommurph]

So 2 full weeks into this cycle, 8 days using Dermacrine. Aside from the occasional BP spikes and sleeplessness, I am experiencing a little psychological effect. No nonsense is the best way to put it. A little too serious for my liking. Just feel a little zoned out. I am only truly happy when I'm pumping iron. But I'm aware of it, and I need to try and tame it. Seeing some more body composition changes. When I hold my arms out in front of me with or without weights, there is a true separation between bicep, tricep and delts. Some striations in the shoulders are coming through even when not under tension. And with focusing on hitting Reverse Flys twice a week, I am starting to get a little rear-delt formation. Vascularity is ridiculous. My wife's friend asked her what I'm on because of the veins on constant pump!! Today's workout was indeed Pumptastic!! Kroc Rows: 60lb. DB x 10 (warm up) 90lb. DB x 10 105lb. DB x 8 110lb. DB x 7 115lb. DB x 5 115lb. DB x 5 (going to try to add 5lbs. each time I do these) Pendlay Rows: 185 x 7 205 x 6 205 x 6 205 x 6 Close Grip (palms facing each other) Pull Down: 130 x 8 x 4 sets Super Set Standing Cable Pull Down w/ Rope: 70 x 12 x 4 sets Spider Curls (with 4 second hold) / Underhand Front Raise (with 2 second hold) Super Set x 4 sets Preacher Machine drop sets: 105 x 10 drop to 60 x failure x 4 sets (w/ half reps and random pauses) Arms were on fire. And scale still says 187. No change since day 1. Obviously I would gain if I ate more, but I don't want to. 3100 cals is a good enough amount of food. Keeping it clean I feel good. It's enough that I'm gaining strength. And recomping like a mofo.

Great work man! I know what you mean about the seriousness, I've been that way too! Also things touching me irritate more, kids, dogs, cats, etc. 3100 cals is what I'm bulking on and find it hard to eat clean at those cals, just so much food, lol.

 

[Dma378]

Great work man! I know what you mean about the seriousness, I've been that way too! Also things touching me irritate more, kids, dogs, cats, etc. 3100 cals is what I'm bulking on and find it hard to eat clean at those cals, just so much food, lol.

It's definitely working for you. 3100 is only 100 over maintenance for me. I only wanted 5-7 lean pounds anyways. I'm definitely trading fat for muscle so I'm not upset. It goes to show that when you're BF is lower, your body uses calories so much more efficiently. I probably need a "wetter" compound to pack on more size.

 

[tommurph]

It's definitely working for you. 3100 is only 100 over maintenance for me. I only wanted 5-7 lean pounds anyways. I'm definitely trading fat for muscle so I'm not upset. It goes to show that when you're BF is lower, your body uses calories so much more efficiently. I probably need a "wetter" compound to pack on more size.

I am enjoying it, I had been on a deficit for a year at 2250, low carb. This is feeling good just a lot of food for me!

 

[Dma378]

Just thought I would share that this is happening tonight!!! I look pretty good in yoga pants LOL!!!