PaulBocian
New member
- Awards
- 0
youtube.com/watch?v=wm_EhSoMO4Y
nah thats about it. he says "fiver" like 2billion times throughout the vid tooso what vidoe are you guys watching. i tried the one in the first post and i never saw a curl. i saw an ugly as hell db hang power clean with a massive backwards lean. am i missing something?
I didn't even watch the video. Save for a naked woman doing curls, I want no part of it.so what vidoe are you guys watching. i tried the one in the first post and i never saw a curl. i saw an ugly as hell db hang power clean with a massive backwards lean. am i missing something?
Curls have no value in life IMO...you do not compete in any federation for a bicep curl...and sorry but I see no need to build a huge bicep curl number. I do think some people do need and crave the growth in the bicep...that is to each his own...no idea why they need it or want it so much (seeing how it is almost useless in any major lift...) but for posing competitions and aesthetic self-love...well I guess you don't even need that much weight (or cheat in form) to achieve it.Nothing about the "curl" exercise is impressive.
Eh I wouldn't call them completely useless. I like to include them for football players, specifically o skill guys who carry the ball. I do agree It's far more of an ego thing in 95% of the population though,Curls have no value in life IMO...you do not compete in any federation for a bicep curl...and sorry but I see no need to build a huge bicep curl number. I do think some people do need and crave the growth in the bicep...that is to each his own...no idea why they need it or want it so much (seeing how it is almost useless in any major lift...) but for posing competitions and aesthetic self-love...well I guess you don't even need that much weight (or cheat in form) to achieve it.
Jim, you do not need huge bicep mass to have them help in rows, and AFIK they are involved little to nothing in Pull Ups :/...chin ups on the other hand, well that's another story.Useless in any major lift?
How about rows and pull ups?
Just because you don't have powerlifting meets for an exercise does not mean that they aren't major lifts.
Chin ups/pull ups work the same muscle groups, my understanding is that the hand grip is inefficient for maximal force production from the bicep but they are still a necessary muscle to complete the lift.Jim, you do not need huge bicep mass to have them help in rows, and AFIK they are involved little to nothing in Pull Ups :/...chin ups on the other hand, well that's another story.
Just tell me how many lbs that's gonna put on your Squat, Bench or Dead please? (perhaps in the Dead a bit if you are bold and unconcerned enough to curl the bar...)
Just because it has the potential to be a stronger muscle doesn't mean that it will be, and alas that same argument points to the fact that Size can lead to more strength, but size is NOT needed for strength anyhow.Chin ups/pull ups work the same muscle groups, my understanding is that the hand grip is inefficient for maximal force production from the bicep but they are still a necessary muscle to complete the lift.
You've said it yourself cel, a bigger muscle has the potential to be a stronger muscle. Therefore a larger bicep will be stronger and will help with pulling more weight (rowing not deadlifting)
And my point on the big three still stands. Just because there is no powerlifting federation for rows or pullups does not mean they are not a very necessary, ie major, lift.
Your arguing over nothing. I am not making any point as to which muscle is more important in the lift, I am merely stating that they are an important mover for those movements.Just because it has the potential to be a stronger muscle doesn't mean that it will be, and alas that same argument points to the fact that Size can lead to more strength, but size is NOT needed for strength anyhow.
My understanding was that due to the fact that the Biceps was in an inefficient position, the power and stress landed on the Brachioradialis , rather than the Brachii or Brachialis.
Anyhow, I wish Rodja or Jason would chime in to tell us what helps out more in rows...IMO Brachii and Brachialis have less importance than anything in those movements and it is the Brachioradialis which will bring the contribution to the lift, being the back the main muscle group being worked.
Jason doesn't seem to think Rows or Pull ups are important for it...I wait for Rodja now, I already told yah my POV that training biceps will NOT lead to a bigger row OR pull up at all (which is your argument, that it is the weakest link in those ones)...My point is that elbow flexors (as the Brachioradialis) are the ones helping out there more than anything, and the biceps is just part of the move and not essential to contributing in the power of the move...Your arguing over nothing. I am not making any point as to which muscle is more important in the lift, I am merely stating that they are an important mover for those movements.
Weak biceps will lead to a weak pullup or row. As they say, you are only as strong as your weakest link.
Take for example your precious DL (because it is more important than everything to you because its part of PLing). With a weak grip your DL will suffer, they may not be primary movers in the lift but they are definitely limiting factors.
The fact of the matter is that if one part of the chain is weak then the entire chain is weak.
Not to mention "impressive" isn't contained within powerlifting. Moving heavy weight is impressive, and heavy is relative to a lift.Chin ups/pull ups work the same muscle groups, my understanding is that the hand grip is inefficient for maximal force production from the bicep but they are still a necessary muscle to complete the lift.
You've said it yourself cel, a bigger muscle has the potential to be a stronger muscle. Therefore a larger bicep will be stronger and will help with pulling more weight (rowing not deadlifting)
And my point on the big three still stands. Just because there is no powerlifting federation for rows or pullups does not mean they are not a very necessary, ie major, lift.
So you are saying that bigger Brachii and bigger Brachialis leads to better pulls in ALL plains? and ANY Kind of pull ?Not to mention "impressive" isn't contained within powerlifting. Moving heavy weight is impressive, and heavy is relative to a lift.
A heavy bench is a weak squat but a 400 pound bench is impressive, as a bench press.
If some one can curl 160 pounds, clean, that is ****ing impressive.
Lou Ferrigno repping 100 lb dumbell incline curls for a pump in Pumping Iron is ****ing impressive.
Letting someone else tell you what lifts are impressive based on one particular sports demands is weak.
And curls hit the brachialis and brachii, and yes, the stronger the curl, the better virtually any pulling lift will be. The upper arm is typically the weak link for rows, pullups/downs et cetera. The larger the strength capacity of the upper back, the bigger deadlift capacity and strong biceps assist in building a strong upper back. Hell, a strong upper back lends itself to a stronger squat, bench and overhead press too.
Strongman is more impressive than powerlifting anyways and you can bet strong biceps help lift stones, pull trucks... highland caber toss...
A strong bicep will help prevent bicepital tendonitis in the shoulder, various types of elbow tendonitis and can prevent the bicep from rupturing during a heavy deadlift.
And a big lift is a big lift, regardless of some arbitrary sanction.
You can read my post again if you need reinforcement.So you are saying that bigger Brachii and bigger Brachialis leads to better pulls in ALL plains? and ANY Kind of pull ?
Haha no need it was a rhetoric question . I always enjoy your contribution to threads!You can read my post again if you need reinforcement.
Good! Quit trolling and you might learn something.Haha no need it was a rhetoric question . I always enjoy your contribution to threads!
As someone who makes endless jokes about my lack of bicep volume (I maybe do 4-5 sets a month), I can tell you for a fact that they are not a limiting factor on rows. I've been cranking out sets of 20 with the 145s for quite some time all while never increasing bicep volume or making an attempt to strengthen them. All-in-all, the biceps have very limited usefulness as a group unless you have heavy arm activity (e.g. pitchers).Your arguing over nothing. I am not making any point as to which muscle is more important in the lift, I am merely stating that they are an important mover for those movements.
Weak biceps will lead to a weak pullup or row. As they say, you are only as strong as your weakest link.
Take for example your precious DL (because it is more important than everything to you because its part of PLing). With a weak grip your DL will suffer, they may not be primary movers in the lift but they are definitely limiting factors.
The fact of the matter is that if one part of the chain is weak then the entire chain is weak.
I had been waiting for this, thanks a lot Rodja!As someone who makes endless jokes about my lack of bicep volume (I maybe do 4-5 sets a month), I can tell you for a fact that they are not a limiting factor on rows. I've been cranking out sets of 20 with the 145s for quite some time all while never increasing bicep volume or making an attempt to strengthen them. All-in-all, the biceps have very limited usefulness as a group unless you have heavy arm activity (e.g. pitchers).
Curls wouldn't help much for wrestlers as there's a lot of isometric in the clinch that won't be improved with a curl. For pullups, it would depend on the grip being utilized, but, again, we're looking at limited carryover.I had been waiting for this, thanks a lot Rodja!
Wrestlers (grapplers) might need Bicep strength too, I believe Jason mentioned it too...Just talked to a buddy of mine to check that, and yeah he does feel he gets a better hold if he has stronger elbow flexion but yeah other than that nope.
Also, what's your take on needing to train biceps for bigger pull ups?
I'm not sure about the biceps (or more specifically elbow flexors) contribute to rows or pullups,
You forget your reading glasses? He said he wasn't sure the elbow flexors (not just biceps) and then you use his statement to validate your comments about the elbow flexors being the main assistance....Jason doesn't seem to think Rows or Pull ups are important for it...I wait for Rodja now, I already told yah my POV that training biceps will NOT lead to a bigger row OR pull up at all (which is your argument, that it is the weakest link in those ones)...My point is that elbow flexors (as the Brachioradialis) are the ones helping out there more than anything, and the biceps is just part of the move and not essential to contributing in the power of the move...
What I mean to say, (for example) if you train calves, have HUGE calves, and also can do 500lb calf raises (exaggerated a bit...) does it make you go up like 10-20-30lbs on your Squat...? Just wondering...
The calves do play a role in knee flexion.You forget your reading glasses? He said he wasn't sure the elbow flexors (not just biceps) and then you use his statement to validate your comments about the elbow flexors being the main assistance....
Also, I was unaware of the calves having any function that is even remotely similar to that of the biceps. What major joint of the leg do they flex again (as the biceps are elbow flexors, which is a fairly important joint in the upper extremity)
Apples to oranges with that comparison brother. But I forgot you do know it all, so why argue?
¬¬' apples to oranges was your grip comparison too...Grip is essential for any discipline, unlike Mr. Bicep here who is being put on the stand of usefulness...You forget your reading glasses? He said he wasn't sure the elbow flexors (not just biceps) and then you use his statement to validate your comments about the elbow flexors being the main assistance....
Also, I was unaware of the calves having any function that is even remotely similar to that of the biceps. What major joint of the leg do they flex again (as the biceps are elbow flexors, which is a fairly important joint in the upper extremity)
Apples to oranges with that comparison brother. But I forgot you do know it all, so why argue?
¬¬' wow that was mature...we were just arguing and I learned something here too...the fact that it does have (albeit little) carryover, and the fact that Ryan and Jason pointed out...that certain sports DO need biceps, so I was wrong too here Jim...Cool. I can admit that I am wrong, although I find it hard to believe that rowing movements do not work the biceps (seeing as the general consensus on these boards is that excessive volume for biceps is not necessary because of the work they get during pulling.movements)
But I know that Jason and Rodja both have significantly more knowledge and experience than I do on the topic.
I concede defeat oh mighty one as I am here to learn, not to throw the small amount (in comparison to others) in everyone elses face.
Hmm interesting.The calves do play a role in knee flexion.
It depends on your definition of work versus involved. I would say that they're involved, but not that they really work the biceps.Cool. I can admit that I am wrong, although I find it hard to believe that rowing movements do not work the biceps (seeing as the general consensus on these boards is that excessive volume for biceps is not necessary because of the work they get during pulling.movements)
But I know that Jason and Rodja both have significantly more knowledge and experience than I do on the topic.
I concede defeat oh mighty one as I am here to learn, not to throw the small amount (in comparison to others) in everyone elses face.
Soo what your saying is rows do involve biceps...and curls work biceps. So wouldn't in turn curls have a direct affect on rows then? Not being a smart ass just genuinely confused at whos arguing what now lolIt depends on your definition of work versus involved. I would say that they're involved, but not that they really work the biceps.
Calves don't play a huge role in knee flexion, but they are a two-joint muscle group.
I can say the same for that last bit too, my rows have gone up the same with or without direct bicep training. My Bi's haven't grown though, but I don't really want them to haha.Out of a simple "yes or no answered" thread I just learned a crap load. Though I have zero scientific backing, I very rarely work biceps and it has not hindered my ability to progress in all pulling movements.
You would think so by that logic, but most do not put enough emphasis on horizontal extension to see dividends. The biceps are a secondary mover and are most likely not going to be the weak point in the movement. I have yet to see someone whose weak point in pullups/rows is the biceps.Soo what your saying is rows do involve biceps...and curls work biceps. So wouldn't in turn curls have a direct affect on rows then? Not being a smart ass just genuinely confused at his arguing what now lol
My main argument to this point is the pulling movements work the bicep (because I can't understand how they are involved in the movement but not worked by it) so when you do your pulling motions you're still training the bicep.Out of a simple "yes or no answered" thread I just learned a crap load. Though I have zero scientific backing, I very rarely work biceps and it has not hindered my ability to progress in all pulling movements.
Rows will work the biceps in the same way that the BB'ing bench press will work the triceps: not that much. They're involved, but are not going to be the weak area or primary mover. My reasoning for limiting arm volume is to put that extra volume and effort into compound movements instead of focusing on beach muscle day.My main argument to this point is the pulling movements work the bicep (because I can't understand how they are involved in the movement but not worked by it) so when you do your pulling motions you're still training the bicep.Which is what I thought the reasoning behind telling people to lower total arm volume (isolation) because it could stress the recovery of those smaller muscles that are already stressed in pulling/pushing motions.
I will honor this post by merely laughing at it...I loved the Synergism and Stabilizer portion of it...specially the bench stabilizer...I did not know that Biceps were code for Scapula and Rear Delts !There is not a rowing variation where the biceps and brachialis are not either synergists or stabilizers.
They certainly are synergists during pullups.
Hell, strong biceps are even a stabilizer during a bench press.
Ignoring an important link in many chains of movement is stupid and limiting. Sure, you can gain without direct work as the inherent indirect work of virtually any routine will strengthen the biceps and brachialis but sandbagging is dumb.
Not only that, but who says the importance of biceps is even based on some powerlifting ideals?
It's weird how certain powerlifters seem to feel there aren't weight training goals outside of powerlifting. I'm looking at you, Celorza.
"I do sports [get sexy]. Not try to be the best at exercising."
Kenny Powers.
People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)Rows will work the biceps in the same way that the BB'ing bench press will work the triceps: not that much. They're involved, but are not going to be the weak area or primary mover. My reasoning for limiting arm volume is to put that extra volume and effort into compound movements instead of focusing on beach muscle day.
That's why I said the BB'ing bench, which is not about 1RM. Now, the PL'ing bench is very much about the strength of the triceps, but not the BB'ing version.People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)
I see it as how you keep the push towards the lift, it depends mainly on CNS adaptation and carryovers from other lifts (IE Floor Press) and also with the direct assistance work.People having issues with lockout on bench isn't related to the triceps? (Possibly a myth I picked up here)
I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.I will honor this post by merely laughing at it...I loved the Synergism and Stabilizer portion of it...specially the bench stabilizer...I did not know that Biceps were code for Scapula and Rear Delts !
Sorry chump, you stepped in MY ground...PL bench really is built by the following:I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.
Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:
http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/powerlifting-articles/5-ways-to-increase-your-bench-press/
Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.
I'm still not sure if you even lift weights or just enjoy acting like a clown.
Here is a link to an article by Jim Wendler:
Laugh away, Celorza. I'll take Wendlers word over your skepticism myself.
When Tiger Woods got to technical he lost his gameSorry chump, you stepped in MY ground...PL bench really is built by the following:
I don't see NO biceps there, and I will take Dave Tate's word over Jim Wendler's any day of the month.
Thanks.