whey + leucine = MOAR GAINZ!

JudoJosh

JudoJosh

Pro Virili Parte
For a while now we have seen a seen a push for more leucine in our supplements. First we seen an increase in the traditional 4:1:1 BCCA blends and now we see leucine being added to protein powders. Now the question is, is this scientifically founded? I mean we know leucine plays a role in improving muscle protein synthesis (MPS). It stimulates anabolic signalling by activating mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) which leads to increased muscle protein synthesis and hypertrophy.

This is great for leucine but this doesn't answer the question, is their any benefit to adding leucine to our protein? Considering whey and casein both already contain leucine is it possible more is better?

Well, lucky for us there was recently this study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

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What the researchers set out to do was to see if adding leucine to a low protein shake would improve MPS. They recruited forty 21 year old men and measured protein synthesis before and after the drink.

The drinks that were given were either;
*25 g whey protein (3g leucine)
*6.25 g whey protein (0.75g leucine)
*6.25 g whey protein + low leucine (total of 3g leucine)
*6.25 g whey protein + high leucine (total of 5g leucine)
*6.25 g whey protein + BCAA (total of 5g leucine)

The subjects performed unilateral knee-extensors (leg extensions) prior to taking the drink and MPS was measured both under resting and exercising conditions.

What were the results? It should come to no surprise that the ones who consumed the whey + high leucine experienced asignificant increase muscle synthesis along with the ones who consumed 25g whey when compared to the other beverages.

So adding leucine to just 6.25g of whey can increase MPS to the same extent that 25g of whey can.

A few questions that come to mind when reading this paper is;
*Why didnt the 6.25g + low leucine increase MPS similar to the 25g whey considering both had a total of 3g leucine?
*Why did the 25g whey increase MPS higher (was only slightly higher) than the 6.25g + high leucine considering it is 3g leucine vs. 5g leucine?

While I do find the results of this study interesting, I would like to see future studies done with a greater amount of protein +leucine like say 45g whey + leucine vs. just 45g whey. In the meantime it would appear that adding leucine to a protein shake may have some merit after all






*NOTE* The full text to the paper is attached for your reading pleasure ;)
 
I'll be interested to read through the full text when I have time. Thanks for sharing.

I think looking at your question, there's a difference between bound leucine and free form leucine supplementation on MPS.
 
aaronuconn said:
I'll be interested to read through the full text when I have time. Thanks for sharing.

I think looking at your question, there's a difference between bound leucine and free form leucine supplementation on MPS.
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Dumb question, but bound leucine = the kind in your average protein powder, and free form leucine = the kind in those "leucine" powders, right?
 
= more scientific backing for both AminoIV and Select protein

It's almost like Coop knows what he's doing ;)
 
This is going to become a more common additive in recovery products I'm thinking, in higher doses. Just saw Cellucor's new BCAA's, looks like 5 forms of leucine in it lol. AminoIV still beats the price and has a lot more going for it via the extra additions for improved workout performance.

How long before all of the 2:1:1 BCAA followers finally change their minds I wonder.
 
Am I missing something ? Leucine has always been in bcaa products....that and isoleucine are the important ones. I want to give that whole study a read after my class today for sure. Seems interesting.
 
LOL at this lame conjecture.

Knee extensions?? Really!? That is insulting.

I lifted more via knee extensions when I was 10 years younger than these male subjects and I used no supplements; however, I did drink a lot of milk and played a lot of Hockey.

Wouldn't most 21 year old men be on the go and always walking and have decent leg strength just from being active.

Put the subjects through an actual routine.
 
great read, thanks!

"However, protein is typically co-ingested with carbohydrate
and fat during meals, which may alter the kinetics of gut
amino acid absorption (45)."

It would be interesting to see how these results may differ if carbs were added to mix, seeing how that has now become standard protocol.
 
Subbed to read article later.
 
Driven2lift said:
= more scientific backing for both AminoIV and Select protein

It's almost like Coop knows what he's doing ;)
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YUP! And he formulated SELECT protein before this study was published.


Maybe he is a psychic?

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doggy_dog said:
Approximately how much leucine is in every scoop of Select Protein?
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Im sorry but I do not know. That answer would have to come from mr.cooper69 or bdcc, and thats only if nattydisaster allows them to disclose the amount. As you can clearly see SELECT protein is ahead of the cuff emerging scientific research so they might want to keep it a secret a little longer before other companies start changing their protein formulations. These guys put in a lot of work perfecting this product so might be hesitant to give up details like this, which is totally understandable considering the cut throat nature of the industry.

EatMoar said:
Am I missing something ? Leucine has always been in bcaa products....that and isoleucine are the important ones. I want to give that whole study a read after my class today for sure. Seems interesting.
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It is examining the effects of additional leucine being added to small amounts of protein.

I should have included this, in 2009 this study was conducted, Invalid Link Removed, in which they compared the effects on MPS that low dose protein had vs higher dosed protein. In this study the higher dosed protein stimulated MPS to a greater extent than the low dosed protein. This was sort of a follow up study to see if adding leucine to the whey would have a significant impact (which it did). But you are correct leucine and isoleucine are already present in BCAA products

CalfMan said:
LOL at this lame conjecture.

Knee extensions?? Really!? That is insulting.

I lifted more via knee extensions when I was 10 years younger than these male subjects and I used no supplements; however, I did drink a lot of milk and played a lot of Hockey.

Wouldn't most 21 year old men be on the go and always walking and have decent leg strength just from being active.

Put the subjects through an actual routine.
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Yea I realize the exercise control wasn't great but it is all we have to work with at this time

bigbruiser739 said:
great read, thanks!

"However, protein is typically co-ingested with carbohydrate
and fat during meals, which may alter the kinetics of gut
amino acid absorption (45)."

It would be interesting to see how these results may differ if carbs were added to mix, seeing how that has now become standard protocol.
Click to expand...

Well we already know that adding carbs to protein doesnt really effect MPS to any significant extent, See - http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutrition-health/196183-more-evidence-carbs.html, so im not sure if adding carbs we would see an increase in MPS but the authors are correct that adding both fat and carbs to the drink could probably change the absorption.
 
So I did a little digging and came across a short review out of the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2013

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to sum it up...

-three studies acknowledge that adding carbohydrates to a protein mix rich in Leucine does not improve MPS
- with that being said, there are still uses of adding carbs pwo, mainly to maximize glycogen restoration
 
So doesn't this suggest u could use less whey and add leucine and get better results then just whey if that's the case then u could save a lot of money by using say 1/2 scoop of whey then add bulk leucine would that be true?
 
Duramaxhd said:
So doesn't this suggest u could use less whey and add leucine and get better results then just whey if that's the case then u could save a lot of money by using say 1/2 scoop of whey then add bulk leucine would that be true?
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Yeah, tell me about it. I'm down for that! LOL!
 
Duramaxhd said:
So doesn't this suggest u could use less whey and add leucine and get better results then just whey if that's the case then u could save a lot of money by using say 1/2 scoop of whey then add bulk leucine would that be true?
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This was basically my line of thinking. :D
 
bigbruiser739 said:
So I did a little digging and came across a short review out of the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2013

Invalid Link Removed

to sum it up...

-three studies acknowledge that adding carbohydrates to a protein mix rich in Leucine does not improve MPS
- with that being said, there are still uses of adding carbs pwo, mainly to maximize glycogen restoration
Click to expand...

That is the same conclusion I reached. Thanks for the link

Duramaxhd said:
So doesn't this suggest u could use less whey and add leucine and get better results then just whey if that's the case then u could save a lot of money by using say 1/2 scoop of whey then add bulk leucine would that be true?
Click to expand...

It suggest that 6.25g of whey combined with additional leucine can increase MPS similar to 25g of whey. Now there are some slight differences between the population here on AM and the ones used in the study. As @ pointed out, on average I would say our workouts are significantly more intense and strenuous than the leg extensions used in the study. So this might change things somewhat. Also our typical post-workout protein amount is usually around 45-50g. It would be more beneficial to us if they used that range instead of the 25g so we can get a better idea for us. However, what we do k now is that adding leucine does make a difference. And not only adding leucine but if you look at the questions I had after reading the study it would look like it is not only increased leucine but something else at play here. If it was just leucine than the 6.25g + low leucine results should have matched the 25g group but it didnt? They both had equal amounts of leucine in them so if it was just leucine at work here than the results should have been similar, but they werent. Then you compare the results of the 25g whey which is only 3g leucine to the 6.25g + high leucine which had 5g leucine which again if leucine was the only player you would expect the 6.25g + high leucine to increase MPS greater than the 25g whey but it didnt. It seems as though you not only need extra leucine but also more protein in general.

So to your question, im not sure if half a scoop protein + leucine would have the same results of 2 scoops protein. However 1-1.5 scoops protein + leucine might give the same results as 2 scoops whey.
 
I believe I've read a few studys posted here that state anything over 20-30g of protein is a waste. I can understand wanting to cover all your bases but if your going to eat soon afterwards then why waste the protein?

Josh u are a respected members of this site and I'm not trying to argue just want to learn
 
Duramaxhd said:
I believe I've read a few studys posted here that state anything over 20-30g of protein is a waste.
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In what way did the article/studies say it was a waste? Just curious...I've heard this before but it had to do with the reason of "not being able to process huge amounts of protein" which was said to be incorrect.
 
Duramaxhd said:
I believe I've read a few studys posted here that state anything over 20-30g of protein is a waste. I can understand wanting to cover all your bases but if your going to eat soon afterwards then why waste the protein? Josh u are a respected members of this site and I'm not trying to argue just want to learn
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Anything over 20-30 grams isn't a waste.

Listen to the first part:

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Waste was poor choice of words 20-30 was sufficient to spike protein production and insulin which is what we are all seeking to do to speed recovery and build muscle
 
And honestly, I maybe a minority here...but I sometimes take a protein blend instead of just whey after my workouts.
 
cbsharpe said:
And honestly, I maybe a minority here...but I sometimes take a protein blend instead of just whey after my workouts.
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You should be taking a blend (whey + casein) rather then just whey post workout.
 
Duramaxhd said:
I believe I've read a few studys posted here that state anything over 20-30g of protein is a waste.
Click to expand...

Depends on what context we are talking. If we are discussing strictly MPS it is believed that there is a threshold amount of leucine. So adding in context, if following my workout I take in 50g whey with the thinking that I am going to get HYOOGE then yes it will be somewhat a waste. BUT, keep in mind that we all shoot for a daily amount of protein to get in, some more than others, and we pretty much all have pretty busy lives. So for some slamming back a whey shake post workout works for them in the context of convenience and helping add more daily protein intake to help hit your total daily macronutrient goal. In this context 50g of whey would not be a waste. Remember while this article primilarly examined the effects whey had on MPS, it is not the only function protein serves in our body. Typically when you hear the statement "20-30g of protein is a waste" they are usually misinformed and have this idea that anything beyond 30g is useless in our body and just be excreted as waste. This is simply not true. In fact if we look at the study where this 30g rule originated from, Invalid Link Removed, we will see that whey protein is absorbed within around 3 hours. So that put whey absorption at around 10g/hr. So if you have yourself say 60g whey some of it will be used to stimulate MPS and some of it would be used for other functions in the body.. and the rest? Well the rest would just sit in your gut until you can absorb them. This idea that the rest would be excreted as waste is nonsense. Furthermore, we know from various studies that lean body mass (lbm) gain is greater when a specific grams of protein is consumed relative to the individuals bodyweight. So lets hypothetically take a guy who ha to consume 220g of protein. If he can only consume 30g in a sitting how many times a day would he have to have a meal? 8? I mean just think about it logically and you will see how this idea is absurbed.

Duramaxhd said:
I can understand wanting to cover all your bases but if your going to eat soon afterwards then why waste the protein?

Josh u are a respected members of this site and I'm not trying to argue just want to learn
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If you have the luxury of eating say a steak post workout and it is what you prefer than by all means go for it ;)

Also thank you for the compliment
 
cbsharpe said:
And honestly, I maybe a minority here...but I sometimes take a protein blend instead of just whey after my workouts.
Click to expand...

ma70 said:
Same here. I like the texture of blends, as well as the better satiety.
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kbayne said:
You should be taking a blend (whey + casein) rather then just whey post workout.
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I will be doing a little mini breakdown of some research to support this sometime soon
 
Remember that we still have a 'protein target' to hit and so while MPS may be maximally elevated, protein plays a much larger role in the body and is not just required for muscle building.

So saying that we could halve the dose, while potentially true if protein targets are met already (and 5g Leucine is met), is also shortsighted if you are using protein powders to hit your protein macros.

As an aside, Carbohydrate post workout can be beneficial as it helps minimize breakdown of muscle protein and thus returns protein balance to baseline or close to. We can then use other methods to push the balance into positive and stimulate the environment for growth.

This process may happen in other circumstances-insulinogenic whey may stimulate insulin release enough to attenuate breakdown of muscle protein but in general speak, carbohydrates can play a role independent of protein intake. Especially if the protein source you consume post workout doesn't stimulate insulin release enough or, you withhold protein for a short period after a workout.

Edit: Bdcc pointed out that JJ already touched on the first part of my post.
 
Jiigzz said:
So saying that we could halve the dose, while true if protein targets are met already (and 5g Leucine is met), is also shortsighted if you are using protein powders to hit your protein macros.
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This is what I do normaly, the shake I consume post-workout is to replace calories burned and promote recovery and is on top of the 200-250grams of protein I eat throughout the day
 
JudoJosh said:
Depends on what context we are talking. If we are discussing strictly MPS it is believed that there is a threshold amount of leucine. So adding in context, if following my workout I take in 50g whey with the thinking that I am going to get HYOOGE then yes it will be somewhat a waste. BUT, keep in mind that we all shoot for a daily amount of protein to get in, some more than others, and we pretty much all have pretty busy lives. So for some slamming back a whey shake post workout works for them in the context of convenience and helping add more daily protein intake to help hit your total daily macronutrient goal. In this context 50g of whey would not be a waste. Remember while this article primilarly examined the effects whey had on MPS, it is not the only function protein serves in our body. Typically when you hear the statement "20-30g of protein is a waste" they are usually misinformed and have this idea that anything beyond 30g is useless in our body and just be excreted as waste. This is simply not true. In fact if we look at the study where this 30g rule originated from, Invalid Link Removed, we will see that whey protein is absorbed within around 3 hours. So that put whey absorption at around 10g/hr. So if you have yourself say 60g whey some of it will be used to stimulate MPS and some of it would be used for other functions in the body.. and the rest? Well the rest would just sit in your gut until you can absorb them. This idea that the rest would be excreted as waste is nonsense. Furthermore, we know from various studies that lean body mass (lbm) gain is greater when a specific grams of protein is consumed relative to the individuals bodyweight. So lets hypothetically take a guy who ha to consume 220g of protein. If he can only consume 30g in a sitting how many times a day would he have to have a meal? 8? I mean just think about it logically and you will see how this idea is absurbed.



If you have the luxury of eating say a steak post workout and it is what you prefer than by all means go for it ;)

Also thank you for the compliment
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Couldn't agree more with this point. Thinking strictly in terms of maximising MPS is too reductionist.

I actually had a concern that when leucine started being promoted for it's effects on MPS that people would start using just leucine post workout and completely ignoring their protein target lol.
 
bdcc said:
I actually had a concern that when leucine started being promoted for it's effects on MPS that people would start using just leucine post workout and completely ignoring their protein target lol.
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Hopefully that doesnt happen. I mean we see in the study that the ones who consumed the most leucine did not experience the most MPS so its obviously not just leucine. It looks like you need extra leucine plus a significent amount of protein substrate in order to acgieve the greastest MPS. At least thats my take away from this. That would explain why the 6.25g + low leucine didnt increase MPS similar to the 25g whey. They both had 3g lwucine but the 25g whey had more overall protein. Would also explain why 25g whey increased MPS higher than the 6.25g + high leucine. While the 6.25 + high leucine had more leucine in it, it also had less protein.

It would have been cool if they would have at least did 25g whey + 2g leucine (for a total of 5g) also. I am guessing that one would have increased MPS the most
 
JudoJosh said:
Hopefully that doesnt happen. I mean we see in the study that the ones who consumed the most leucine did not experience the most MPS so its obviously not just leucine. It looks like you need extra leucine plus a significent amount of protein substrate in order to acgieve the greastest MPS. At least thats my take away from this. That would explain why the 6.25g + low leucine didnt increase MPS similar to the 25g whey. They both had 3g lwucine but the 25g whey had more overall protein. Would also explain why 25g whey increased MPS higher than the 6.25g + high leucine. While the 6.25 + high leucine had more leucine in it, it also had less protein.

It would have been cool if they would have at least did 25g whey + 2g leucine (for a total of 5g) also. I am guessing that one would have increased MPS the most
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lol, it did happen.

See exhibit A. Invalid Link Removed
 
Great post Josh. I would have liked them to add in extra leucine to the highest protein group as well to see what happens. Eventually there should be a ceiling effect where things level out and it doesn't make sense to add more. Where that occurs though is typically going to be an individual threshold that people will have to experiment themselves with. That said, this shows leucine as a critical part of overall protein intake.
 
I think I'm good. With AminoIV at 2 scoops intra workout and then Select Protein post workout :).
 
kbayne said:
I think I'm good. With AminoIV at 2 scoops intra workout and then Select Protein post workout :).
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SELECT protein also contains additional leucine added so I would say you are more than covered bud ;)
 
Good info JJ, but I still think people should cover all bases post workout.
One shake = 30g protein blend + 5g leucine + 1/2 scoop BCAAs + 30g carbs + creatine + etc.

I can understand if you're strapped for cash, but for us who have the extra funds it's not that much at all.
 
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