X-Factor + Lean xtreme
- Thread starter neodvl
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H8duke
Banned
Arachnidonic acid is the source compound of practically all prostaglandins.your body has tons of it already in circulation.therefore,you don't create any extra prostaglandins of any type by taking in morearachidonic acid. rendering this product pretty much useless over priced hype.max von said:
w_llewellyn
New member
H8duke said:
Skepticism is great H8duke.. I applaud your interest in investigating a supplement before simply taking it and accepting the marketing claims. If every consumer were like you, ****, there would be few **** pushers out there, wouldn't there?
On the note of discovery, I am sure you will apprecite the paper Clin Pharmacol Ther. 1975 Nov;18(5 Pt 1):521 "Increased arachidonate in lipids after administration to man: effects on prostaglandin biosynthesis.". It does show that PG biosynthesis can be augmented by taking oral AA. FWIW, I have been extensively researching this product for years, and feel it is going to be regarded as my greatest accomplishment in this field. It is no snake oil. I hope now that I have presented some data in contrary you might be interested in investigating this supplement a little further. I have a feeling you will be very interested in what you learn about it. If you have Q's, please feel free to post them.
Thanks, and best.
Nullifidian
Banned
Provide a link please so we can examine the study. It is afterall only 1 study and we all know how studies can be made to skew in favor of a particular hypothesis or the results be interpretted to come to an invalid conclusion.w_llewellyn said:
In the meantime I'm looking up studies on arachidonic acid administration, as well as other factors which may increase or decrease arachidonic acid in humans.
A little update...
Invalid Link Removed
This is not particularly about achidonaic acid, but it is about prostaglandins. It is about prostaglandins which cause adipogensis at the PPARgamma receptor. Arachidonic acid is the source compound of ALL prostaglandins in our body IIRC. Therefore, if increasing AA can increase PGF2a, it goes to reason that it increases other prostaglandins as well. Why is this important? Because it shows us that by merely showing that oral AA administration increases PGF2a you do not adequately prove effectiveness of AA for fat loss. This is because there may, and very likely, is a balance between synthesis of PGF2a and other prostaglandins manufactured from orally administered AA. Thus no noticeable change may occur, or worse, AA administration may result in an overabundance of adipocyte genesis caused by other prostaglandins that supercedes adipocyte necrosis caused by PGF2a.
Translation: no one should be satisfied with proof of efficacy until sufficient studies show that oral arachidonic acidadministration causes FAT LOSS. Not merely increases PGF2a levels.
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w_llewellyn
New member
Nullifidian said:
Interesting study, but it really doesn't have much relevance to how AA loading actually works in exercising humans. We have people winning shows using X-Factor for contest prep, so the thought that it might make you fat is a little counterintuitive at this point. I've heard the same before when it first came out, but that has not proven to be the case - quite the opposite.
As for the debate, honestly, this product is already at the point of being in full clinical trials, and I am writing a book right now on top of other projects. I really don't have the time (nor want) to get into another academic debate trying to prove to everyone it works with pubmed abstracts. I really think its already become a proven product, as you can see by the influx of positive reviews. And, as Pat Arnold has shown us with this very topic, even if you are wrong, you can argue vigilantly enough to be convincing. The proof it in the pudding so to speak, and I think the product does all the speaking for itself it needs to.
If you believe it will not work, that is totally cool. The full clinical should be done soon, and you can review its data and except or refute it as you see fit. Short of that, almost everyone that actually tries the product loves it (for both muscle gain and fat loss). You may want to ask around.
Again, I completely appreciate skepticism. This is an industry that preys on vanity, often with BS claims and empty promises. I hope at some point in the future you will realize my promises are not empty here. Regardless, I can appreciate you position as good as anyones, and take no offense to it. If anything, I find it a healthy change from the norm.
Best,
Nullifidian
Banned
Will these studies report adverse events and likely side effects? For example, AA administration is likely to increase COX-2 synthesis (as well as a host of other inflamatory factors and pro-inflamatories) which in turn may cause arthritic inflamation, and for those with arthritis may exacerbate symptoms. As we know, many of use have already problems with joint pain just from the exercise we do. Many a bodybuilder has fallen by the wayside due to abuse of NSAIDs and other painkillers used in order to train around the pain. So you can understand why this would be a major concern.
w_llewellyn
New member
Nullifidian said:
Yes, I see where you are coming from, and you are 100% right for wondering about this. We don't recommend it to people with conditions like arthritis for this reason - it can exacerbate discomfort. Cox-2 is an enzyme (cyclooxygenase). AA increases the COX-2 products of AA, which includes anabolic PGF2alpha (the 2 denotes dienolic PG synthesis - or 2 series).
Our study is looking at most major markers of health (lipids, BP, blood panels etc), so we can present them neatly in one study. Such studies have actually been done already though, and all of them report compelte safety when taking up to 1.7 grams daily for 50 days.. In fact, none of the loading studies, even up to 6 grams per day, show any adverse effects at all. I had a great deal to research before making any decisions, and I sell it now with compelte piece of mind concerning its safety. To put it in persepctive, people on Atkins can eat this much AA, and inflammation isn't a problem.
Without this data I would have funded my own study into AA safety first. Thankfully, the baby food people beat us to it, and funded a literally library of work on this fatty acid.
Its safe, it works, and very soon, it will be one of the only clinically proven tissue-building anabolics on the supplement market.
w_llewellyn
New member
BTW - I will add that AA likely has a healing effect on injury, as it increases blood flow and nutrient availability, as well as supports the regenerative actions of androgens and IGF-1. The problem lies in comfort levels. If you have a minor injury, and AA makes it more painful - interfering with your lifting, it isn't good.. If it is minor and you can work through it, it shouldn't be an issue.. It isn't injury causing. It only intensifies pain signalling...
Nullifidian
Banned
Are you checking for asymmetric dimethyl arginine increases? Prostaglandin levels have been linked to an increase in ADMA which is a major predictor for heart disease. In fact, DHA and EPA have been shown to lower many inflamatory prostaglandins, in turn decreasing ADMA. The current theory is that this is the manner by which EPA and DHA help cardiovascular health (and by which many other polyunsaturated fats do).
ADMA has been shown to be a better predictor than things like blood pressure and cholesterol, since there are a number of people who have high blood pressure and high cholesterol yet do not develop heart problems for many many years if at all.
ADMA has been shown to be a better predictor than things like blood pressure and cholesterol, since there are a number of people who have high blood pressure and high cholesterol yet do not develop heart problems for many many years if at all.
w_llewellyn
New member
Nullifidian said:
ADMA is an NO synthesis inhibitor, and may be detrimental to the body by effecting/reducing blood flow and endothelial relaxation. AA has an opposite effect, namely increasing blood flow by supporting NO synthesis (via PGE2). It has an arginine type effect, opposite of ADMA. I know of no study looking at AA and ADMA, but suspect you are not going to see an issue given the obvious vasodilatory nature of X-Factor.
I don't believe ADMA is being given quite the attention you suggest here though.. It is very intersting to see you bring it up, however. I can see you are sharp and this is a topic you are quite interested in. ADMA is but one thing being looked at in a very complicated equation of heart disease. To date the info on asymmetric dimethyl arginine is new and sparse, and I don't see any suggestion it is THE new risk factor of interest. But it may turn out to be an intersting part of the puzzle none-the-less.
Perhaps having an effect like NO2, X-Factor might even counter this risk factor.. Arginine is regarded as possibly benificial here.
JonesersRX7
Registered User
I'm actually excited to try this product after my winter bulk. Around Feb/March I will start a detailed log.
JonesersRX7
Registered User
I will indeed. Keep a look out in Feb/March. I plan to do a 50 day run.