Winny or DMZ with Test E

[LifeNtheFastlane]

Hey fellas,

Currently starting week 6 of a 12 week cycle of Test E 500mg. I’ve got my cycle support lined up and I’m ready to add an oral. I’ve ran DMZ in the past with 4Andro with good strength and size gains. I can’t seem to find any good comparisons on these two compounds. I’ve also searched Superdrol vs Winstrol since it seems DMZ is a form of SD.
Any thoughts from those who have experience with them? Dosage on the Winny? I ran DMZ at 45mg prior.

 

[Tunaking14]

A 6 week cycle is a waste.

 

[Rad83]

A 6 week cycle is a waste.

I take it to mean, he’s starting his 6th week of being on 500mg….

Hasn’t said how long his cycle will last

 

[Smont]

A 6 week cycle is a waste.

He's not running a 6 week cycle, he's on week 6 of his current cycle and wants to add more gear

 

[Smont]

Dmz is typically used in a bulking situation and winny is used on a cut. But honestly it doesn't really matter it's going to depend on your diet. Mg vs mg dmz is stronger. If you already used dmz in the past without testosterone then I'd pick that and run it at whatever dose you did last time

 

[LifeNtheFastlane]

Correct - 12wk cycle of Test E. I wanted to get the Test in my system before adding another compound.

 

[Smont]

Correct - 12wk cycle of Test E. I wanted to get the Test in my system before adding another compound.

If you plan on coming off and doing pct at the end then I would wait till the very end to use your oral so that it overlaps your last injection by 2-3 weeks. Now you got the oral still working while the testosterone is clearing

 

[Smont]

So add the oral week 11,12, stop pinning after week 12 and continue the oral week 13,14,15 then pct

 

[LifeNtheFastlane]

@Smont I have read people like to end a cycle like that. In your opinion, what's the reasoning behind doing so instead of adding in now, or say week 7/8? Assuming because the Test is in my system for that amount of time after last Pin?

 

[Smont]

@Smont I have read people like to end a cycle like that. In your opinion, what's the reasoning behind doing so instead of adding in now, or say week 7/8? Assuming because the Test is in my system for that amount of time after last Pin?

Because you want to start your cycle low and finish on higher doses when it's needed. If you start a cycle with a oral now your cycle gets weaker once the oral is pulled out.

Now if you use it 7-12 that's fine but you will have 3 weeks after your last pin now with gear doses tapering off.

If you overlap the last pin with the oral you still have the oral driving gains while testosterone clears making your cycle longer and giving more opportunities for gains.

Plus oral steroids are like 90% cosmetic. Your not building much actual muscle while on them. The look they provide dissapears shortly after you come off then. So finish the cycle at your best

 

[Smont]

@Smont I have read people like to end a cycle like that. In your opinion, what's the reasoning behind doing so instead of adding in now, or say week 7/8? Assuming because the Test is in my system for that amount of time after last Pin?

Because you want to start your cycle low and finish on higher doses when it's needed. If you start a cycle with a oral now your cycle gets weaker once the oral is pulled out.

Now if you use it 7-12 that's fine but you will have 3 weeks after your last pin now with gear doses tapering off.

If you overlap the last pin with the oral you still have the oral driving gains while testosterone clears making your cycle longer and giving more opportunities for gains.

Plus oral steroids are like 90% cosmetic. Your not building much actual muscle while on them. The look they provide dissapears shortly after you come off then. So finish the cycle at your best

 

[Tunaking14]

He's not running a 6 week cycle, he's on week 6 of his current cycle and wants to add more gear

Aah my bad.....hadn't had my coffee yet!!

 

[MadStax]

Honestly, a six week cycle of DMZ ain't half bad. That stuff is hard to take for much longer than that. Personally I'd pick SD over DMZ all day. Less liver stress and same results. You'll swell up like a balloon if you can force enough food down.

Winny is good for a cut, but you won't build anything you'll keep in my experience.

 

[MadStax]

Because you want to start your cycle low and finish on higher doses when it's needed. If you start a cycle with a oral now your cycle gets weaker once the oral is pulled out.

Now if you use it 7-12 that's fine but you will have 3 weeks after your last pin now with gear doses tapering off.

If you overlap the last pin with the oral you still have the oral driving gains while testosterone clears making your cycle longer and giving more opportunities for gains.

Plus oral steroids are like 90% cosmetic. Your not building much actual muscle while on them. The look they provide dissapears shortly after you come off then. So finish the cycle at your best

I think all steroids, both oral and injectable, are 90% cosmetic if you use them that way. It's all about the right man for the mission. Plenty of guys packed on a lot of mass with SD, Adrol, Dbol, etc. over the years. Plenty also use Tren, Primo, Mast, etc. to cut fat and maintain lean mass in a deficit. We have these tools and can use them to meet our personal needs.

 

[Smont]

I think all steroids, both oral and injectable, are 90% cosmetic if you use them that way. It's all about the right man for the mission. Plenty of guys packed on a lot of mass with SD, Adrol, Dbol, etc. over the years. Plenty also use Tren, Primo, Mast, etc. to cut fat and maintain lean mass in a deficit. We have these tools and can use them to meet our personal needs.

I'm gonna agree to disagree. I've never seen anyone maintain there oral gains, they always dissapear within a few weeks of coming off because you can't really build much muscle tissue in 4-6 weeks. It's mostly water or glycogen or both with anadrol, SD, dbol.

But on injectables your on them for a much longer period of time building actual muscle and muscle dosent dissapear overnight like water does.

That's why guys think they lost all there dbol gains. You didn't loose any gains, you lost water.

 

[Smont]

If I take SD right now il gain 20lbs in a month and within a month of coming off il loose 15-18 of those lbs.

If I run test and eq for 16 weeks I can gain 20lbs and about a month after I'm done il only loose a few lbs.

This is why bodybuilders use injectables year round and only use orals for contests when they need to look a certain way

 

[Smont]

I do love SD and anadrol tho lol

 

[MadStax]

I'm gonna agree to disagree. I've never seen anyone maintain there oral gains, they always dissapear within a few weeks of coming off because you can't really build much muscle tissue in 4-6 weeks. It's mostly water or glycogen or both with anadrol, SD, dbol.

But on injectables your on them for a much longer period of time building actual muscle and muscle dosent dissapear overnight like water does.

That's why guys think they lost all there dbol gains. You didn't loose any gains, you lost water.

I definitely agree with that. Taking responsible doses of orals for a small part of a longer cycle won't yield anything permanent. That's not to say you can't make permanent gains from taking high doses for extended periods of time.

 

[Smont]

Honestly, a six week cycle of DMZ ain't half bad. That stuff is hard to take for much longer than that. Personally I'd pick SD over DMZ all day. Less liver stress and same results. You'll swell up like a balloon if you can force enough food down.

Winny is good for a cut, but you won't build anything you'll keep in my experience.

I can't remember if I've used dmz on its own or higher then 30mg. Is it a big water retention type steroid?

 

[Smont]

I definitely agree with that. Taking responsible doses of orals for a small part of a longer cycle won't yield anything permanent. That's not to say you can't make permanent gains from taking high doses for extended periods of time.

Agreed

 

[MadStax]

I do love SD and anadrol tho lol

Everyone loves how you look, but not how you feel.

 

[Smont]

Everyone loves how you look, but not how you feel.

Oddly enough I feel good on them. No sick feeling, great appetite, good energy ect.

 

[MadStax]

I can't remember if I've used dmz on its own or higher then 30mg. Is it a big water retention type steroid?

It's the methylated SD, right? Just two SD joined together. Same effects, but even more toxic to the liver. I will never do it, and I can't imagine why anyone would want to honestly.

 

[Smont]

I've always been tempted to run anadrol for 8 weeks for that reason

 

[Smont]

It's the methylated SD, right? Just two SD joined together. Same effects, but even more toxic to the liver. I will never do it, and I can't imagine why anyone would want to honestly.

SD is methylated, dmz is a slightly altered SD molecule but my understanding is that SD is still more toxic. Not positive tho. Dmz was supposed to be a "better" SD but ended up being different somehow. I used it @ 20-30,mg before as part of a pre made stack but it was years ago

 

[Smont]

It's the methylated SD, right? Just two SD joined together. Same effects, but even more toxic to the liver. I will never do it, and I can't imagine why anyone would want to honestly.

Found this and I remember something similar being in the prohormones bible

The Dymethazine (D-Zine) Prohormone Profile Guide

The Dymethazine (D-Zine) prohormone was first brought to the market by iForce Nutrition with Dymethazine in 2009. Good gains side like Superdrol with lower side

newprohormones.com

Supposed to be SD with slightly less gains and less sides.

Dosent make it true but

 

[Renew1]

SD and DMZ are related structurally, but not in effects, results, or toxicity (or side effects, for me).
SD is much more toxic. Much more anabolic. And the side effects from SD are much harsher on me, and most people.
Some guys can't even take SD at all.

It would be better if guys didn't even know they are structurally related. They are so different, it is better to treat them like they aren't.

 

[MadStax]

SD is methylated, dmz is a slightly altered SD molecule but my understanding is that SD is still more toxic. Not positive tho. Dmz was supposed to be a "better" SD but ended up being different somehow. I used it @ 20-30,mg before as part of a pre made stack but it was years ago

Right, but I think the way the two SD molecules are joined in DMZ actually makes it worse, not better? Somehow it is even more toxic to the liver and we all know SD is not good to the liver.

 

[MadStax]

SD and DMZ are related structurally, but not in effects, results, or toxicity (or side effects, for me).
SD is much more toxic. Much more anabolic. And the side effects from SD are much harsher on me, and most people.
Some guys can't even take SD at all.

It would be better if guys didn't even know they are structurally related. They are so different, it is better to treat them like they aren't.

Wow, I guess I got some bad info. I'll have to research it again. Thanks!

 

[Smont]

Right, but I think the way the two SD molecules are joined in DMZ actually makes it worse, not better? Somehow it is even more toxic to the liver and we all know SD is not good to the liver.

Ya idk, everything I see says less toxic, I'm not doubting what your saying tho, it makes sense.

 

[Smont]

SD and DMZ are related structurally, but not in effects, results, or toxicity (or side effects, for me).
SD is much more toxic. Much more anabolic. And the side effects from SD are much harsher on me, and most people.
Some guys can't even take SD at all.

It would be better if guys didn't even know they are structurally related. They are so different, it is better to treat them like they aren't.

What's dmz like solo, what would you compare it to, if comparable to anything. I can't remember ever using it solo or at a respectable dose. I've used msten up to like 40mg and SD at 30. But I can't remember what I did with dmz lol

 

[Renew1]

Wow, I guess I got some bad info. I'll have to research it again. Thanks!

Sure!

Just keep in mind, a lot of what I know to be true about the two (and in comparison), come from using both myself, and guys I know using both.

 

[Smont]

I thought dmz was supposed to be like msten but "wet" holding more water

 

[Renew1]

What's dmz like solo, what would you compare it to, if comparable to anything. I can't remember ever using it solo or at a respectable dose. I've used msten up to like 40mg and SD at 30. But I can't remember what I did with dmz lol

For me, it was similar to Msten, only a little more "bulky".

I honestly get almost no sides from it.

 

[Renew1]

I thought dmz was supposed to be like msten but "wet" holding more water

LOL.
I wrote my response before I saw this.

 

[Renew1]

Wow, I guess I got some bad info. I'll have to research it again. Thanks!

I'm all for studying (reading, etc). SERIOUSLY. Please keep it up.

But notice that Most of the descriptions of DMZ (the honest ones, I believe), state that "IT IS BELIEVED THAT" the two SD molecules that were bound, become unbound in your system, and are then simply 2 SD molecules.
I've also seen: "IT IS BELIEVED THAT DMZ is a prodrug of SD".

Results indicate otherwise.

 

[MadStax]

All I need to know...
SD 400:20
DMZ 210:95

I'm all for studying (reading, etc). SERIOUSLY. Please keep it up.

But notice that Most of the descriptions of DMZ (the honest ones, I believe), state that "IT IS BELIEVED THAT" the two SD molecules that were bound, become unbound in your system, and are then simply 2 SD molecules.
I've also seen: "IT IS BELIEVED THAT DMZ is a prodrug of SD".

Results indicate otherwise.

Honestly, I'm more about bro science. I will take personal experience as gold. Years ago I started taking 1g of Metformin XR every day based on bro science. Even though studies show that's probably not a good idea for a bodybuilder. I'm still taking it. Now I see all the YT guys talking about using it. It's really hard to replicate how a drug will work in our bodies by giving that drug to "healthy males aged xx-xx".

I don't think we need to drop names about linking studies around here. I bet he's reading this...

 

[Renew1]

All I need to know...
SD 400:20
DMZ 210:95


Honestly, I'm more about bro science. I will take personal experience as gold. Years ago I started taking 1g of Metformin XR every day based on bro science. Even though studies show that's probably not a good idea for a bodybuilder. I'm still taking it. Now I see all the YT guys talking about using it. It's really hard to replicate how a drug will work in our bodies by giving that drug to "healthy males aged xx-xx".

I don't think we need to drop names about linking studies around here. I bet he's reading this...

LOL.
Yep.

But .... The Anabolic/Androgenic ratios/numbers aren't reliable At All.

 

[Smont]

LOL.
Yep.

But .... The Anabolic/Androgenic ratios/numbers aren't reliable At All.

Ya the ratios are for rodent's, there are no A/A ratios for humans

 

[Tunaking14]

It's the methylated SD, right? Just two SD joined together. Same effects, but even more toxic to the liver. I will never do it, and I can't imagine why anyone would want to honestly.

Superdrol is more toxic than DMZ all day long. DMZ has an azine bond. This results in less toxicity and side effects. DMZ feels great. Try doing more than 20mg of SD and you'll feel like hell. DMZ was my favorite PH by far!

 

[LifeNtheFastlane]

The only thing I can add back here is that DMZ along with 4 Andro gave me incredible strength gains and overall well-being.
I did lose most of the gains. I also had a newborn at the time so some things took a back seat.

 

[Smont]

The only thing I can add back here is that DMZ along with 4 Andro gave me incredible strength gains and overall well-being.
I did lose most of the gains. I also had a newborn at the time so some things took a back seat.

That's another good reason to add dmz at the end, kick strength gains back up to drive more muscle growth. While a stronger muscle does not always=a bigger muscle, if you can use more weight for more reps your going to build more muscle

 

[Mikereyn513]

I've always been tempted to run anadrol for 8 weeks for that reason

My first "real cycle" I was 30 years old it was week 8 and I was feeling awful b.p. through the roof, heavy tren breathing eventho I wasn't on tren, was strong af tho. My coach was like you shouldn't be feeling this bad on 750 test and 500 deca. I was like but I'm still taking anadrol. He was like wtf!?! Bro it's week 8 your still taking that. I was like yea I thought I was supposed to finish the bottle ( it was the original androlic) he was like mike get off that now before you die. I said but I like front squatting 315 for sets of 10. He then told me I couldn't do that if I was dead.lol

 

[PoSiTiVeFLoW]

I'm gonna agree to disagree. I've never seen anyone maintain there oral gains, they always dissapear within a few weeks of coming off because you can't really build much muscle tissue in 4-6 weeks. It's mostly water or glycogen or both with anadrol, SD, dbol.

But on injectables your on them for a much longer period of time building actual muscle and muscle dosent dissapear overnight like water does.

That's why guys think they lost all there dbol gains. You didn't loose any gains, you lost water.

Just a thought here, I noticed this also, but I think one could use DMZ and Msten orals we love and still "solidify the gains" perhaps by switching to a longer Test and EQ cycle after a strong oral methyl "breaks the mold" for us hardgainers.. I know I just went personal experience minded here. Not describing some short kick start, but full 4 week Msten + then longer 8-12 week Test+EQ so 16 weeks to solidify it all, avoid the yo-yo.

I see what you're saying about the weight yo-yo from a short, high calorie gain cycle (especially when one can't maintain calories or training after it ends and if it was glycogen/water), but if one lifts hard, still eats up and keeps going to TRT + injectable like EQ or Mast, for longer term protocol.. then I have noticed that's when I could make the new size more permanent... Or seems so for me anyway.

 

[Smont]

Just a thought here, I noticed this also, but I think one could use DMZ and Msten orals we love and still "solidify the gains" perhaps by switching to a longer Test and EQ cycle after a strong oral methyl "breaks the mold" for us hardgainers.. I know I just went personal experience minded here.

I see what you're saying about the weight yo-yo from a short, high calorie gain cycle (especially when one can't maintain calories or training after it ends and if it was glycogen/water), but if one lifts hard, still eats up and keeps going to TRT + injectable like EQ or Mast, for longer term protocol.. then I have noticed that's when I could make the new size more permanent... Or seems so for me.

Well, I've never kept any oral gains long term and I e never seen anyone else either except for the guys that run them for extended periods of time

 

[Smont]

I shouldn't say no gains kept, but very minimal. Last 2 times I ran superdrol I gained 20-30lbs each time and set prs on pretty much everything. Yet I'm not 60lbs heavier and couldn't maintain those strength gains.

 

[Smont]

What you guys really need is a turkesterone Kickstarter.....

Joking

 

[Renew1]

I shouldn't say no gains kept, but very minimal. Last 2 times I ran superdrol I gained 20-30lbs each time and set prs on pretty much everything. Yet I'm not 60lbs heavier and couldn't maintain those strength gains.

From my experience, and what I've read ..... I haven't kept a Lot of the weight gain from oral cycles (or any cycles, honestly), whenever I come off Anabolics for extended periods.
Hey, if the professional "Mass Monsters" can't do it (from oral and IM cycles), why should I be any different?
Thankfully, non-hormonal options are steadily increasing, as is their effectiveness.

What I do believe I've gained "permanently" are muscle fibers, and Androgen receptors.
(I can still see the difference in my body from using SD).

.... A lot of guys (I believe) attribute it to muscle memory.

I've definitely got a lot of what most guys might call muscle memory now.
.... Although I attribute it to different things, like past usage of Anabolics (including orals), putting in hard work, and discipline.

 

[Stopstalking2]

SD and DMZ are related structurally, but not in effects, results, or toxicity (or side effects, for me).
SD is much more toxic. Much more anabolic. And the side effects from SD are much harsher on me, and most people.
Some guys can't even take SD at all.

It would be better if guys didn't even know they are structurally related. They are so different, it is better to treat them like they aren't.

Superdrol is for sure much more toxic and gains are much better. I loved it back in the day at 40mg

 

[Renew1]

Superdrol is for sure much more toxic and gains are much better. I loved it back in the day at 40mg

Whoa! That's a heavy dose!
I loved it at 10-20mg.
LOL