Answered Wild Bitter Gourd found to be an herbal SARM

stimtron

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[2019 Jan Study] Wild bitter gourd displays SARM activity resulting in increased weight of androgen responsive muscles, strength, function, and performance comparable to testosterone propionate.

""Loss of skeletal muscle mass and strength is often associated with disability and poor quality of life. Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs) are under development as potential treatment. This study aims at examining the potential of wild bitter gourd (BG) as a SARM and its effects on the muscle decline induced by orchiectomy. In the cell-based androgen receptor (AR) transactivation assay, the BGP extract showed weak agonistic and antagonistic activities, resembling those of some SARMs. Male C57BL/6J mice were sham-operated (Sham group) or castrated (Cast groups) and fed a modified AIN-93G high sucrose diet supplemented without (Cast group) or with 5% lyophilized BG powder (Cast + BGP) or with testosterone propionate (7 mg TP per kg diet, Cast + TP) for 23 weeks. In contrast to the Cast + TP group, the BGP supplementation did not affect the serum testosterone concentration, and prostate and seminal vesicle mass. Both TP and BGP supplementation increased the weight of androgen responsive muscles, bulbocavernosus (BC) and levator ani (LA) (p < 0.05). The grip strength and the performance on a rotarod of the Cast + BGP group were comparable to those of the Cast + TP group (p > 0.05). The BGP supplementation up-regulated the Pgc1α, Ucp2 or Ucp3 gene expressions in skeletal muscles of castrated mice (p < 0.05). BGP showed some characteristics of the SARM and might improve skeletal muscle function through the up-regulation of mitochondrial biogenic genes and oxidative capacity, and ameliorated the castration-induced decline of skeletal muscle function in mice.""

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30600821
 
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N2ofusion

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Many of these are found in test / libido booster products
 
jameschoi

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I get a free sample from bulk supps, hope it works.
 

Jeremyk1

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I’m hoping to check these studies a little closer when I get some time. Could be interesting. Don’t get your hopes up on the Maca though, that’s all I’ve gotten so far.
 
unitas27

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So basically wild-type bitter melon?
 

ironkill

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so bitter melon and bitter gourd are the same thing?
 

Jeremyk1

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In one study a aqueous fraction of methanolic extract of Red Mace increased the number of Androgen receptors. This may make it ideal for PCT or just increasing responsiveness to testosterone levels.
First, in this study they were looking at the prostate. No mention whether similar effects were seen in muscle, which is where we would want that effect.

Second, it also increased alpha estrogen receptors. The beta receptors are generally the ones you’d want to activate, although offhand I don’t remember the differences. However, increasing both of these in the prostate is probably a bad idea.
 

Jeremyk1

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What happened to all the other products you had listed?
 

Jeremyk1

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Okay, so I read the full text. The number of issues I have to raise before jumping to a conclusion actually surprised me.

First, they compared castrated rats, non castrated rats, castrated rats treated with testosterone, and castrated rats treated with bitter gourd. There is no group which received bitter gourd under normal conditions, nor is there one which received both testosterone and bitter gourd. Therefore, any conclusions can’t really be extrapolated to a normal functioning male. That said, results may or may not be more applicable to hypogonadal men. If you’ve been castrated, you have the best shot of these results applying to you.

Next, from the full text: “The BGP extract (50 μg mL−1) increased 5.3% of the AR transactivation but suppressed 26.2% and 30.9% of the AR activation when co-treated with 0.1 nM or 10 nM 5α-DHT, respectively (p < 0.05, Fig. 1A). Similarly, 9c,11t-CLA (10 μM) and 10t,12c-CLA (1 μM) increase 27% and 34% of AR transacti- vation, respectively (p < 0.05, Fig. 1B). 9c,11t,13t-CLN (50 μM) and 10t,12c-CLA (50 μM) suppressed 36% and 46% of the AR activation when co-treated with 10 nM 5α-DHT, respectively ( p < 0.05, Fig. 1B).”

So, it increased androgen receptor activity 5%. Wow. Turns out, CLA (yes, really, plain CLA) increased androgen receptor activation 27-34%, depending on which fraction was used. When co-administered with DHT, we see similar reductions in androgen receptor activity. That is, 30% for bitter gourd and 36-46% for CLA. Cool. So it’s a worse SARM than CLA.

Now, if you read the abstract you may have noticed “The grip strength and the performance on a rotarod of the Cast + BGP group were comparable to those of the Cast + TP group (p > 0.05).” Bitter gourd is as effective as testosterone propionate? Pretty awesome right?

IMG_6218.JPG


Well, the test prop group ended up with, what, about a quarter of the serum testosterone of the non-castrated rats? Not exactly a high target to hit.

Now, all that is well and good, but we’re really looking to get swole here right? If we get some growth out of this, then everything I’ve said so far loses a lot of importance. “As shown in Fig. 6, the castrated mice tended to have a smaller CSA and their mean CSA was significantly lower than that of the Sham group (p < 0.05). However, the size distribution and mean CSA of Cast + BGP and Cast + TP groups were com- parable to those of the Cast group. Supplementation did not sig- nificantly change the CSA distribution in castrated mice (Fig. 6).” Castrated rats have smaller muscles than normal rats. Makes senses. However, neither bitter gourd nor testosterone treatment offset this effect. So, no significant muscle growth.

I don’t know if the researchers were trying to be misleading in the abstract, but the actual conclusion is much less positive. In the actual conclusion: “This may account for the insignificant differences between the performance in the functional tests... between the Cast + BGP group and the Cast group. Nevertheless, there were also no significant differences of these parameters between the Cast + BGP and Cast + TP groups...” funny how they mention no significant differences between BG and testosterone treatment, however, they left out the part that there’s also no significant difference between BG treatment and castrated controls. Yes, there’s a trend toward improved performance, but apparently you’re better off being castrated and taking a quarter of a TRT dose of testosterone than you are taking bitter gourd supplements.
 
Jiigzz

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Okay, so I read the full text. The number of issues I have to raise before jumping to a conclusion actually surprised me.

First, they compared castrated rats, non castrated rats, castrated rats treated with testosterone, and castrated rats treated with bitter gourd. There is no group which received bitter gourd under normal conditions, nor is there one which received both testosterone and bitter gourd. Therefore, any conclusions can’t really be extrapolated to a normal functioning male. That said, results may or may not be more applicable to hypogonadal men. If you’ve been castrated, you have the best shot of these results applying to you.

Next, from the full text: “The BGP extract (50 μg mL−1) increased 5.3% of the AR transactivation but suppressed 26.2% and 30.9% of the AR activation when co-treated with 0.1 nM or 10 nM 5α-DHT, respectively (p < 0.05, Fig. 1A). Similarly, 9c,11t-CLA (10 μM) and 10t,12c-CLA (1 μM) increase 27% and 34% of AR transacti- vation, respectively (p < 0.05, Fig. 1B). 9c,11t,13t-CLN (50 μM) and 10t,12c-CLA (50 μM) suppressed 36% and 46% of the AR activation when co-treated with 10 nM 5α-DHT, respectively ( p < 0.05, Fig. 1B).”

So, it increased androgen receptor activity 5%. Wow. Turns out, CLA (yes, really, plain CLA) increased androgen receptor activation 27-34%, depending on which fraction was used. When co-administered with DHT, we see similar reductions in androgen receptor activity. That is, 30% for bitter gourd and 36-46% for CLA. Cool. So it’s a worse SARM than CLA.

Now, if you read the abstract you may have noticed “The grip strength and the performance on a rotarod of the Cast + BGP group were comparable to those of the Cast + TP group (p > 0.05).” Bitter gourd is as effective as testosterone propionate? Pretty awesome right?

View attachment 182729

Well, the test prop group ended up with, what, about a quarter of the serum testosterone of the non-castrated rats? Not exactly a high target to hit.

Now, all that is well and good, but we’re really looking to get swole here right? If we get some growth out of this, then everything I’ve said so far loses a lot of importance. “As shown in Fig. 6, the castrated mice tended to have a smaller CSA and their mean CSA was significantly lower than that of the Sham group (p < 0.05). However, the size distribution and mean CSA of Cast + BGP and Cast + TP groups were com- parable to those of the Cast group. Supplementation did not sig- nificantly change the CSA distribution in castrated mice (Fig. 6).” Castrated rats have smaller muscles than normal rats. Makes senses. However, neither bitter gourd nor testosterone treatment offset this effect. So, no significant muscle growth.

I don’t know if the researchers were trying to be misleading in the abstract, but the actual conclusion is much less positive. In the actual conclusion: “This may account for the insignificant differences between the performance in the functional tests... between the Cast + BGP group and the Cast group. Nevertheless, there were also no significant differences of these parameters between the Cast + BGP and Cast + TP groups...” funny how they mention no significant differences between BG and testosterone treatment, however, they left out the part that there’s also no significant difference between BG treatment and castrated controls. Yes, there’s a trend toward improved performance, but apparently you’re better off being castrated and taking a quarter of a TRT dose of testosterone than you are taking bitter gourd supplements.
Nice breakdown.

Always good to see people actually read the full texts.
 

stimtron

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Okay, so I read the full text. The number of issues I have to raise before jumping to a conclusion actually surprised me.

First, they compared castrated rats, non castrated rats, castrated rats treated with testosterone, and castrated rats treated with bitter gourd. There is no group which received bitter gourd under normal conditions, nor is there one which received both testosterone and bitter gourd. Therefore, any conclusions can’t really be extrapolated to a normal functioning male. That said, results may or may not be more applicable to hypogonadal men. If you’ve been castrated, you have the best shot of these results applying to you.
Yes this is how SARMS testing is normally conducted and was the goal of the study. You can't effectively determine how effective a SARMS is without T as a factor. The next step is giving it to healthy animals and seeing what effect it has on exercise and physical performance. Which they have already done with some striking results!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Wild+bitter+gourd+exercise

Here are some highlights. Impressive figures.

"Increased exercise performance until exhaustion 4.1 fold., Increased grip strength increase 1.14 fold.

Increased serum glucose levels 1.27-fold and glucose uptake capacity.

Increased liver and muscle glycogen levels

Increased weight 1.35 fold.

Lowered ammonia levels 45.45%

Lowered Serum CK levels a biomarker of exercise-induced muscle damage 67.22%

Lowered BUN 28.14%

Lowered lactate levels 45.45%"



If not through SARMs alone it was very active in lowering known negative chemicals involving in workouts and increasing positive values.

Next, from the full text: “The BGP extract (50 μg mL−1) increased 5.3% of the AR transactivation but suppressed 26.2% and 30.9% of the AR activation when co-treated with 0.1 nM or 10 nM 5α-DHT, respectively (p < 0.05, Fig. 1A). Similarly, 9c,11t-CLA (10 μM) and 10t,12c-CLA (1 μM) increase 27% and 34% of AR transacti- vation, respectively (p < 0.05, Fig. 1B). 9c,11t,13t-CLN (50 μM) and 10t,12c-CLA (50 μM) suppressed 36% and 46% of the AR activation when co-treated with 10 nM 5α-DHT, respectively ( p < 0.05, Fig. 1B).”

So, it increased androgen receptor activity 5%. Wow. Turns out, CLA (yes, really, plain CLA) increased androgen receptor activation 27-34%, depending on which fraction was used. When co-administered with DHT, we see similar reductions in androgen receptor activity. That is, 30% for bitter gourd and 36-46% for CLA. Cool. So it’s a worse SARM than CLA..
182742


When 9c, 11t, 13t-CLN one of the active SARMS was compared to 5α-DHT a potent Androgen receptor agonist than is the positive control chemical to test against for the AR receptor. When looking at how potently 5α-DHT compared to 9c, 11t-CLA in Figure B they were of equal effectiveness with a higher dose of 9,11 CLA achieving the same effects as receptor binding affinity or strength as 5α-DHT on the receptor.

In fact 9,11 CLA increased AR activity about 3 times over WBG and was again equal to 5α-DHT.

I'll reply to the rest later on.
 

Jeremyk1

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Stimtron, I have no idea what your point is. Sure, it may improve performance, but that doesn’t make it a SARM. And why the info about CLA? Doesn’t seem very applicable.
 

stimtron

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Stimtron, I have no idea what your point is. Sure, it may improve performance, but that doesn’t make it a SARM. And why the info about CLA? Doesn’t seem very applicable.
It clearly is a SARM as it interacts with the Androgen receptor selectively.

Then you didn't understand the study. Those forms of CLA are SARMS.
 
Aleksandar37

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The next step is giving it to healthy animals and seeing what effect it has on exercise and physical performance. Which they have already done with some striking results!
Next step? The paper you claim is the next step was published 2 years before the current one and doesn't mention SARMS once. In fact they're not even the same group of authors or from the same institution.

Authors of 2019 paper: "SARM-like," "resembling those of some SARMs"
stimtron: it's absolutely a SARM!
 
NoAddedHmones

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Yes this is how SARMS testing is normally conducted and was the goal of the study. You can't effectively determine how effective a SARMS is without T as a factor. The next step is giving it to healthy animals and seeing what effect it has on exercise and physical performance. Which they have already done with some striking results!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Wild+bitter+gourd+exercise

Here are some highlights. Impressive figures.

"Increased exercise performance until exhaustion 4.1 fold., Increased grip strength increase 1.14 fold.

Increased serum glucose levels 1.27-fold and glucose uptake capacity.

Increased liver and muscle glycogen levels

Increased weight 1.35 fold.

Lowered ammonia levels 45.45%

Lowered Serum CK levels a biomarker of exercise-induced muscle damage 67.22%

Lowered BUN 28.14%

Lowered lactate levels 45.45%"



If not through SARMs alone it was very active in lowering known negative chemicals involving in workouts and increasing positive values.



View attachment 182742

When 9c, 11t, 13t-CLN one of the active SARMS was compared to 5α-DHT a potent Androgen receptor agonist than is the positive control chemical to test against for the AR receptor. When looking at how potently 5α-DHT compared to 9c, 11t-CLA in Figure B they were of equal effectiveness with a higher dose of 9,11 CLA achieving the same effects as receptor binding affinity or strength as 5α-DHT on the receptor.

In fact 9,11 CLA increased AR activity about 3 times over WBG and was again equal to 5α-DHT.

I'll reply to the rest later on.
Good luck consuming around 16g of extract a day lol
 

stimtron

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Good luck consuming around 16g of extract a day lol
I'll have to try do a lab spect of whatever gourd extract I go with. So far I only see one decent choice let's hope their types of CLA are high I rather not have to take more than a dozen pills. It seems to be a potent extract so I'm game to try it out after my cycle.
 

Jeremyk1

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It clearly is a SARM as it interacts with the Androgen receptor selectively.

Then you didn't understand the study. Those forms of CLA are SARMS.
I... dude, seriously. Did you actually read anything I wrote? I talked about CLA increasing androgen receptor activity. Which, by the way, is about 5x more potent than your amazing new herbal SARM. If CLA is so great, why are you still talking about bitter gourd??? Still, I don’t see the applicability of CLA in this case.

Anyway, okay, sure. It interacts with the androgen receptor, selectively. It increased androgen signaling 5%! Again, 5x less than plain CLA. It also inhibited androgen signaling from DHT, a naturally occurring hormone. Realistically, it sounds like it’s more anti androgenic than anything, much like how SERMs are anti estrogenic.

Furthermore, it was clearly outperformed in every way by testosterone injections. And did you notice the nice little graph I posted? The test injections led to roughly a quarter of the blood testosterone levels of control rats.

My conclusion still stands. You’d have better luck castrating yourself and taking a quarter of TRT dose of test than taking this stuff.
 
GHopkins

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Be forewarned that if you run this longer than 6 weeks you could be causing oxidative stress to your testes.
https://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011/06/bitter-pill-for-your-testes-purported.html
I would advised to add vitamin C and broad spectrum vitamin E offset this effect.
There is also a link about Bitter Mellon having anti-androgenic effects in spermatogenesis.
Is a test booster worth the risk? Short term maybe, long term maybe not. My take is that there are better options.

Keep the boys safe and the lifts heavy.
 
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N2ofusion

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This seems like an answer to a question that nobody asked. Bitter melon, is, well, bitter. Ever eat one? Doesn’t sit well in your stomach. It can numb your mouth for a few minutes.

Is it necessary to take this everyday? If you need an actual SARM, why not buy one and run it? If you need actual PCT, maybe get an actual, proven PCT? You’re gonna mess up your stomach for very little other benefit.
 

jmero2

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There is a product out called karela. It's a drink that helps with blood sugar control. I bought the actual fruit from a local indian market, they told me how to incorporate it into recipes. I must admit, if you cook it the right way it's pretty good, it will also crush your blood sugar if you eat too much of it.
 
GHopkins

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There is a product out called karela. It's a drink that helps with blood sugar control. I bought the actual fruit from a local indian market, they told me how to incorporate it into recipes. I must admit, if you cook it the right way it's pretty good, it will also crush your blood sugar if you eat too much of it.
Karela is bitter melon or balsam pear. From the description is sounds good in a curry. But I would not want to eat it every day.
 

Jeremyk1

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I has been advised to add vitamin C and broad spectrum vitamin E offset this effect.
There is also a link about Bitter Mellon having anti-androgenic effects in spermatogenesis.
That SuppVersity article said vitamins C and E were not able to ameliorate the effects. But, if you’re dead set, I’d add them in to at least help a little.

I’d wager the stuff is anti-androgenic in most body tissues. It’s an extremely weak pro-androgen, but it’s fairly effective at blocking DHT mediated androgen signaling.
 

alvin1

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This Is not what Urolithin does? I there a difference?
 
jameschoi

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That SuppVersity article said vitamins C and E were not able to ameliorate the effects. But, if you’re dead set, I’d add them in to at least help a little.

I’d wager the stuff is anti-androgenic in most body tissues. It’s an extremely weak pro-androgen, but it’s fairly effective at blocking DHT mediated androgen signaling.
How much do you take per day? I just got my 100g free sample.
 
GHopkins

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How much do you take per day? I just got my 100g free sample.
Standard dose would be 750mg or 1/4 teaspoon. Take a break after 6 weeks if you value your nuts. If you are still young then 8 weeks at the max.
 

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