Why is liver toxicity the main concern? Orals

Heybros1

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When it comes to orals why is it the liver that people seem to worry about so much and not other things? The liver is very hardy and drinking 8 to 10 beers a night would most likely be much worse for you and people do that for years on end and in a lot of cases when thats brought to an end there is no major long term damage at all. Then you have the extreme cases of alcoholics that blast there liver for 30 years before they get any major repercussions strictly related to the liver while they paid for their mistakes before that in other parts. I feel like people forget that elevated liver enzymes are yes not good but no where near as damaging when we are talking long term and I'm curious as why other parts of the body are not more of a focus. Please enlighten me.
 

mawalega

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Down a bunch of liquor in a week you'll feel really crappy. Down a bunch of orals in a week you'll turn yellow 🤷... And it's not like cycle/post support shouldn't include things for cholesterol, blood pressure, etc
 
Marne40

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For me personally, liver isn’t my biggest concern with orals; BP is my number one. Not just with orals, but AAS in general. Still have to watch the liver as it’s not bulletproof, but it can take a good beating. I watch my BP like a hawk though.
 
Cheeky Monkey

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I'd be more worried about permanent erectile dysfunction.
 

nnnnnn

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Well liver failure can kill you. Most people just run support supplements but don't know how the compounds affect their health during the cycle. I've gotten in the habit of getting blood work during my cycle. There are far worse things that AAS do apart from raise liver enzymes on cycle.
 
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Jinsun

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When it comes to orals why is it the liver that people seem to worry about so much and not other things? The liver is very hardy and drinking 8 to 10 beers a night would most likely be much worse for you and people do that for years on end and in a lot of cases when thats brought to an end there is no major long term damage at all. Then you have the extreme cases of alcoholics that blast there liver for 30 years before they get any major repercussions strictly related to the liver while they paid for their mistakes before that in other parts. I feel like people forget that elevated liver enzymes are yes not good but no where near as damaging when we are talking long term and I'm curious as why other parts of the body are not more of a focus. Please enlighten me.
Well tbh, drinking 8 bears a day will destroy you much sooner then in a couple of years. And once you get to the level of cirrhosis it's definitely not fun anymore. My ex's dad had that and he drank a couple of beers a day for some time. He almost died, was in really bad shape.

Regarding orals; well ... liver strain is the main side effect that's being touted in regards to them, so this is why everybody is concerned about it imo. Also, some people's liver can actually react pretty badly to orals and get jaundice, which is scary, even though it's not the end of the world.

There is a fairly long and extensive thread here on AM regarding orals and liver damage. You might want to give that a read.

 
Hyde

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Lack of education/knowledge.

People are warned about liver toxicity when taking orals because it is indeed a bigger concern than other AAS that are oil/water-based (or transdermal).

If you get bloodwork, the numbers are actually listed in order of importance/what can kill you the fastest if they are askew. Notice the quality the blood is the immediate priority.

Next is kidney values (showing how important BP control is on cycle), then liver (which is hardy and can regenerate, but still very necessary) and lastly lipids, which will pose no immediate threat even if terrible - but they will be what causes you to clot and stroke out in your 40s if routinely abused.
 

trumac

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I am an alcoholic and have spent years drinking in excess and my liver values have only ever been very slightly out of range. And they usually are in range. While I don’t think people should ignore liver care I do agree that it’s over exaggerated. Kidneys and lipids are my concern with orals.
 
Rad83

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What’s the “tudca” for the kidneys on an oral ?

Thanx
 
Hyde

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What’s the “tudca” for the kidneys on an oral ?

Thanx
Kidneys aren’t any more a problem on orals than any AAS - if BP or blood thickness goes up, you’re going to have trouble. Literally anything you take in high enough doses for long enough can be a concern. But some compounds affect these things a bit more than others, and individual response matters too.
 
Jinsun

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Kidneys aren’t any more a problem on orals than any AAS - if BP or blood thickness goes up, you’re going to have trouble.
Not an expert on BP, but don't orals elevate it a lot more then oils? SD for instance at 15mg is a lot worse then any oil at an equivalent dose or even 2x of an equivalent dose. M1T also comes to mind. And the spike in BP happens before rbc goes up (i presume) as this can literary happen a week after the start of orals.
 
Hyde

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Not an expert on BP, but don't orals elevate it a lot more then oils? SD for instance at 15mg is a lot worse then any oil at an equivalent dose or even 2x of an equivalent dose. M1T also comes to mind. And the spike in BP happens before rbc goes up (i presume) as this can literary happen a week after the start of orals.
I’m most definitely the furthest thing from an expert myself, but it’s just going to be compound specific is the point I’m taking. Things like Tren, Trest, dienelone, mast are all known to raise bp in some. BP increase definitely doesn’t have to be tied to rbc at all, although it certainly can be over time. Also consider someone is probably on orals a shorter time than someone on oil who could be spending a long time with bad values if they aren’t watching it.

There are dumb dumbs who will read this stuff about oils being safer on bp and go run tren which can raise bp right away, eq which is thickening the blood, & a large dose of test with no AI so they retain a bunch of fluid as estrogen creeps up. They won’t be donating blood or even monitoring their bp and will be breathing like they ran a marathon, but think they are healthy since no orals.

There are guys who run that stack for bodybuilding & strongman all the time, but it has to be monitored closely and nobody in the know would assume it’s healthy for kidneys or bp by a long shot.
 

Rebuild

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Kidneys aren’t any more a problem on orals than any AAS - if BP or blood thickness goes up, you’re going to have trouble. Literally anything you take in high enough doses for long enough can be a concern. But some compounds affect these things a bit more than others, and individual response matters too.
Anavar is kidney toxic though, right?
 
Hyde

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Anavar is kidney toxic though, right?
Spurfy told me it was primarily metabolized via the kidneys. I have no idea if that’s true or not, but it does seem to really let you use more creatine like he said.

I don’t think he meant that it’s “toxic” to the kidneys; my impression is that this is why it’s so easy on the liver compared to many other orals.
 
manifesto

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What supps do you guys take for liver health?
 
Jinsun

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What supps do you guys take for liver health?
The three most beneficial are: 1. UDCA (TUDCA), 2. NAC, 3. Milk Thistle. You do not need to look beyond this three. And imo, just NAC or TUDCA is enough.
 
manifesto

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The three most beneficial are: 1. UDCA (TUDCA), 2. NAC, 3. Milk Thistle. You do not need to look beyond this three. And imo, just NAC or TUDCA is enough.
My bad...I meant for kidney health...
 
manifesto

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Water and astragulus.
Keeping BP normal.
Blood thickness at acceptable levels.
Not starting any cycle if you already have kidney disease.
How much astragalus do you run while on cycle?
 
ValiantThor08

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How much astragalus do you run while on cycle?
I used vitacost Astragalus Root, and Astragulus Root extract. I used one serving of the root non extract, and two servings of the root extract. Doing that, and my nightly urination decreased. Astragulus is not only good for the kidneys, but good for overall health, including immunity. I saw this study where extremely high dose astragulus reversed almost dead kidneys in an older lady, but I believe it was IV applied.
 
Hyde

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One of the mechanisms that have been proposed for kidney injury in these cases is the excess use of vitamin D, leading to hypercalcemia, hypercalciuria and nephrocalcinosis (https://sites.kowsarpub.com/asjsm/articles/65540.html)

If that hypothesis is true, vitamin K2 could help. Also lycopene seems to prevent AAS-related kidney damage (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31108192/).
damn i take a lot of D3

i have never heard its bad for kidneys
@UNX I was just going to suggest K2 as soon as I read the first half of your post lol. Seems like the problem isn’t with the D3 itself (it can do a lot of good) as the body not knowing where to deposit calcium - K2 largely fixes that.

The NOW supplement I use has 5k iu D3 and 180mcg K2 in a single affordable capsule.

I think if you want to take more than 5,000 units daily it is worth getting a blood test to make sure you aren’t pushing levels too high - nothing beneficial happens when you take more than you can use.
 

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