Why Gawd? Why?!!!
- Thread starter PalmFist
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mich29
Board Sponsor
??????????
benmayro
Well-known member
I believe 100% that women, African Americans, whites, Asians, men should all of an equal opportunity to apply for all jobs in the military. As long as they meet the needed requirement. I know that I had to sign up for the draft to get federal grants for college, as with all males. it's only fair if its for women too
Kinggrommet
Member
They aren't. Same requirements.
PalmFist
Well-known member
Lol. You have no idea what your talking about. Go back to smoking doobies in your dorm back in penn state....
PalmFist
Well-known member
Where all my military dogs at? I want input from the men who've actually been in the field and seen the effect that women have on effectiveness and combat readiness. How a woman in the field attracts attention all around them. How even the most atrocious one is "deployment hot" and just having them around distracts junior ranks. I'm all for equal rights but some things, i.e. death, blood, killing, psychological trauma, should be left to those more capable. And yes there may be a few exceptions to that rule but those women are not women in any sense of the word, there are no GI Janes in real life.
mikeg313
Well-known member
I am a veteran. I see what your saying but the ones I imagine making it physically aren't the ones that'll draw much attention unless they go to Lilith fair. Also like I said some like to learn the hard way. Who knows , it could be a curiosity by some that quickly becomes a horrifying reality they weren't prepared for. Women aren't wired as aggressive as men, that's where testosterone comes in, I just don't see many women actually willing to take it that far in order to kill. The ones that do though could be beasts. I just hope it doesn't end up jeopardizing combat situations like you mentioned.
Other then that the ugly ones don't have to be on the front lines to get railed, I've nailed a couple enlisted trolls behind bars off base before. It's hard enough making those mistakes and remembering when you sober up but to have to stare at em in ranks everyday after when they now are infatuated with you. Yikes what can I say, the late 90s were boring and boredom sometimes leads to bad decision making. ;-)
Other then that the ugly ones don't have to be on the front lines to get railed, I've nailed a couple enlisted trolls behind bars off base before. It's hard enough making those mistakes and remembering when you sober up but to have to stare at em in ranks everyday after when they now are infatuated with you. Yikes what can I say, the late 90s were boring and boredom sometimes leads to bad decision making. ;-)
PalmFist
Well-known member
Ha. What a great post
mikeg313
Well-known member
I'm %100 on board with her there
jimbuick
Legend
This is a mistake.
I don't believe that woman shouldn't be able to be infantry but I believe that the PT standards should be based on MOS (and age) instead of Gender (and age). If they can meet the standard I have to meet then that's fine but I know it won't be that way.
I can't trust a woman who only has to do 20 pushups to meet the standard to be able to pick me up in full kit when we get hit by an IED (or insert situation here).
Just like Airborne School, when my dad went through (late 50's), that sh*t was hard but now its a joke. As long as you buck up and exit the aircraft you're golden because the runs are so slow (the women are always in the front) that you end up walking in the middle/towards the rear of the formation.
/rant.
I don't believe that woman shouldn't be able to be infantry but I believe that the PT standards should be based on MOS (and age) instead of Gender (and age). If they can meet the standard I have to meet then that's fine but I know it won't be that way.
I can't trust a woman who only has to do 20 pushups to meet the standard to be able to pick me up in full kit when we get hit by an IED (or insert situation here).
Just like Airborne School, when my dad went through (late 50's), that sh*t was hard but now its a joke. As long as you buck up and exit the aircraft you're golden because the runs are so slow (the women are always in the front) that you end up walking in the middle/towards the rear of the formation.
/rant.
PalmFist
Well-known member
I have to say thank Gawd for the Marine Corps and most of its Generals because the other branches have fallen prey to way too much public involvement and have lost their edge. Women have no business in the field as grunts, and I would vehemently argue with anyone who believes they should. This is not a morals/ethics/social justice type issue. This an effectiveness issue. A morale issue. A unit cohesion issue.
S. F.
S. F.
benmayro
Well-known member
There is no need to get aggressive when someone disagrees with you. As a veteran who risk his life defending the liberties and rights we all hold so dear, which I respect you for. Why would you be so disrespectful, when I express one of these rights in a debate about a certain topic. by the way, I have been accepted to a college that in my eyes is better than Penn State. Haverford College look it up.
jimbuick
Legend
I don't want you to take this personally Ben.
But the fact remains that you have absolutely no experience on this topic and shouldn't even be a part of this discussion.
There are very few woman that could do what I am required to do as an infantryman. And the politics of the whole situation is disgusting, every line unit would have to change the way we do everything.
Here is just a small example. We have a particular piece of truck BII, we use it to fill the trucks with fuel in the field. It is literally called a 'donkey dick', now if we were to have women in our unit and asked them to hand us the donkey dick...sexual harassment and UCMJ action which could even lead to a dishonorable discharge.
PalmFist
Well-known member
Great example
benmayro
Well-known member
I do not take anything personal about politics or the Internet and you made many valid points bud
I agree with you there. There is two questions. do I believe women should get the chance to go to the front lines? yes. Do I believe they can handle it, no. There should be equal and significant physical requirements that does not differ between sexes. I do not believe in mixed units though. let's say 40 women made it through the requirements like all the males. than they can have their own groups.
PalmFist
Well-known member
That wasn't aggressive. That was me expressing how I feel I have met you before. How I feel I have met every idealistic young man and woman in this country praising the tenets of equality with no sense of actual context. I apologize for sounding callous or rude but I have spent most of my adult life surrounded by like minded individuals who have only marginal consideration for political correctness.
mikeg313
Well-known member
Like sending lambs to slaughter. Can you imagine the flack the military would receive if they sent an all female unit to the frontline only to get completely wiped out?
benmayro
Well-known member
No harm, no foul. it's the Internet and the worse part is the lack of face to face contact and emotions. I am not an idealist for social construct or the running of government. I believe the front line is a masculine occupation that requires dedication, a strong group energy and a full physical dedicated. I want to again give my respect for all you and everyone else in this thread that has served this country. A good example of my belief in a hundred percent less significant situation is football. Is a woman legally able to join a team and play with the males, yes. Can they in all actually though, no.
benmayro
Well-known member
I don't believe that many females could ever get that far. I believe though they should have the opportunity to fail though.
PalmFist
Well-known member
Good point
jimbuick
Legend
If the standard was the same then I would agree.
But the fact remains that the physical standard for a woman is subpar and consequently the women who wear the uniform are incapable of keeping up with the men who wear it.
A woman in the army aged 17-21 has to run somewhere in the 17s for a 2 mile and do like 20 pushups in two minutes, and she is supposed to pull me out of the **** when were dog tires from humping rucks all day?
(Don't quote me on the numbers, they are ballpark estimates)
Celorza
Well-known member
I'm just subbing along for the discussion...can't really comment, I got no military background and have no real say in the matter other than agreeing with the Veterans in this thread from what they have shared, and given us insight for.
Interesting read indeed on the article from a female veteran too.
Interesting read indeed on the article from a female veteran too.
jimbuick
Legend
You're being ignorant.
We aren't talking about serving, of course women can serve. We are talking about being part of a line unit, something I'm sure you have no experience with.
PalmFist
Well-known member
Yeah I'm sorry but women in a line company = serious problems. For morale. For unit cohesion. The list goes on
mich29
Board Sponsor
saying they can't serve simply because they are female doesn't cut it and im well aware of what war does i have friends who have served several tours aunts uncles grandparents who have served in many different branches.this is 2014 not 1930
Celorza
Well-known member
You are missing the point...sit and watch the real experienced guys talk about this. You are missing their points, it's not because they are women...it is because of all the points they have made, and the reasons you are ignoring. Neither you nor I have served, you can be a part of the discussion, but for that you have to listen to their points...understand where they are coming from and answer with counter arguments to their ideas, because they are not arguing they can't do it just because they are women, they are talking about team cohesion and the physical and psychological demands needed for it...
jimbuick
Legend
Again, you are being ignorant.
Women have been serving for years, no one is talking about a woman serving in the military. We are talking about being a member of an infantry platoon.
Infantry platoon =/= army
They are two very different beasts entirely. The culture difference between 11 series and POGs is something anyone can attest to.
The way infantry platoons are run is in no way a politically correct endeavor and by adding women to that would change the entire dynamic of the unit and would (from personal experience) ruin unit cohesion.
No 11B wants a woman in his platoon, I hear this sentiment everyday.
Also, as I've already pointed out, the standard a woman meets is not sufficient to be on the front line. How can I (as a lighter Guy even) trust a 100 pound woman who can barely do 25 pushups to drag me, in full kit, if I get injured? On top of the fact that some guys in my unit weigh ~200 pounds before kitting up.
Sean1332
Legend
I'm married member to member and I completely agree with ya guys. Some women may be fully capable of it, but I definitely see the situations ability to cause some problems.
In my branch though, women can serve in every line of work, including deployable specialized forces. I imagine infantry being a whole nother thing
In my branch though, women can serve in every line of work, including deployable specialized forces. I imagine infantry being a whole nother thing
Russianog
Member
Really? You didn't just say that...
You would like to see them sent to their deaths, KNOWING that they can't handle it. A PLATOON of women... who would lead? Can you imagine the amount of BULL**** a platoon sgt would deal with when 40 bitches are bleeding? MEN already pose a problem... women will further complicate things and pose at least twice to three times as many problems.
Women in the infantry is the biggest load of bull****, as is equal opportunity rights in general.
First off, can you imagine the amount of harassment lawsuits that will take place on a daily basis. We are vulgar and ****ing cruel to each other (jokingly) but we can handle ourselves. Females with their emotional mind state of a 12 year old would come crying every 3 seconds for being called a bitch, ****, twat or w/e word they take offense to that day.
95% of the men in the infantry are disgusting creatures... with disgusting views and ideas. Part of them think rape is okay (yes I've heard numerous people say it, and some sgt instruct his boots on it)
Once women join the infantry and see the bull**** we put up with, they will want out. Not to mention when we go to the field they will want special treatment because they are women, special places to eat **** and piss.
You can't demand equality and then ask for special treatment. Equal is equal and it'll never happen. Their 70 cents to our Dollar is what's been and is what it will be in the future. MEN have been shown on average to work harder, work longer, and be smarter then women. That's not to say that there isn't a single women that isn't harder working, longer working or smarter than any man, but that's the average consensus. IE: Females have gotten their chance at equal rights where they want and need it. To demand it in every facet of life is ridiculous and a decision that they will whole heartily regret.
Like above posters mentioned, unit cohession, comradery and other qualities that make an infantry unit unique would be shattered and halted from progression.
FYI not sexist, so don't throw that **** at me.
CopyCat
Well-known member
The purpose of militaries, infantry units and such are to win wars and battles through combat.
What everyone seems to forget is how we got to where we are now in Iraq and Afghanistan. They think these FOBs we have out here have always been here and when ever there is conflict we can just patrol out of our luxurious FOB accommodations. In 2003, when I went into Iraq with 1st Mar Div I was crammed in the back of an AAV that is designed for about 15 persons and gear. We had 20-23 plus gear, food, water, ammo, in NBC suits. This meant we were sitting on each others labs and in seriously awkward positions. We would be in there for hour upon hour moving across the desert towards Bagdad. If we had to piss, our only choice was to whip it out and piss in a bottle right next to your buddies face. When we were stopped we would squat or use an ammo crate to sit on and take a ****, out in the open, while vehicle after vehicle drive by in the convoy. Like hey guys, don't mind me, just ****ting here. There was no place to find privacy if you wanted it. After day upon day of wearing te NBC suits 24/7 and no shower for weeks (I went over a month) we had crotch rot and a?? rash and nasties growing on us. If we had time and was safe we would drop trousers and baby wipe our balls or hand sanitize them. Are women going to want to go through that? See that? Be apart of that? We are crude. We say the most horrible things to get a laugh because all the normal jokes got old. Are they ready to man up to tht kind of humor? Day to day in garrison that humor can be avoided, but in battle its a stress reliever and coping mechanism.
Yes, conventional "front lines" are likely a thing of the past and there are women out there kicking ass and taking names and already in roles of combat. Female Engagement Teams for example. IMO the better thing to do is to legitimize the roles that are already there not make it universal in every aspect. I can see women being apart of SOF units/communities, but as a tool and assest. Not as the bulk and regular part of the team.
It's nuts already as it is when two grown straight men start playing gay chicken. Can you imagine what it would be like if you through a girl into that scenario??
What everyone seems to forget is how we got to where we are now in Iraq and Afghanistan. They think these FOBs we have out here have always been here and when ever there is conflict we can just patrol out of our luxurious FOB accommodations. In 2003, when I went into Iraq with 1st Mar Div I was crammed in the back of an AAV that is designed for about 15 persons and gear. We had 20-23 plus gear, food, water, ammo, in NBC suits. This meant we were sitting on each others labs and in seriously awkward positions. We would be in there for hour upon hour moving across the desert towards Bagdad. If we had to piss, our only choice was to whip it out and piss in a bottle right next to your buddies face. When we were stopped we would squat or use an ammo crate to sit on and take a ****, out in the open, while vehicle after vehicle drive by in the convoy. Like hey guys, don't mind me, just ****ting here. There was no place to find privacy if you wanted it. After day upon day of wearing te NBC suits 24/7 and no shower for weeks (I went over a month) we had crotch rot and a?? rash and nasties growing on us. If we had time and was safe we would drop trousers and baby wipe our balls or hand sanitize them. Are women going to want to go through that? See that? Be apart of that? We are crude. We say the most horrible things to get a laugh because all the normal jokes got old. Are they ready to man up to tht kind of humor? Day to day in garrison that humor can be avoided, but in battle its a stress reliever and coping mechanism.
Yes, conventional "front lines" are likely a thing of the past and there are women out there kicking ass and taking names and already in roles of combat. Female Engagement Teams for example. IMO the better thing to do is to legitimize the roles that are already there not make it universal in every aspect. I can see women being apart of SOF units/communities, but as a tool and assest. Not as the bulk and regular part of the team.
It's nuts already as it is when two grown straight men start playing gay chicken. Can you imagine what it would be like if you through a girl into that scenario??
mich29
Board Sponsor
guess i should have spelled it out.yes i believe they should be able to serve in a platoon making judgements like you are doing is no different than when African Americans weren't allow in sports and etc because they were looked at as inferior
Spaniard
Well-known member
What?! Completely absurd and erroneous. Race and gender are completely different. No one in this thread is even talking about race. This is a conversation about the physical limits of women versus men not racial equality. See your idiotic commentary back to the AF sub forum where you and Tom Davis can exchange war stories that you heard about from other people.
- Valdez
jimbuick
Legend
You're an idiot.
Apples to oranges comparison.
It must be nice to have other people fight for your freedoms and then try to tell them how they should do it.
mikeg313
Well-known member
Did you really just pull the race card to relate this issue to a past one? You don't know what on earth you're talking about and if you want to have a clue then I can direct you to a recruitment office and you can find out first hand.
P.s. I'm not kidding. You're in the metro Detroit area my brother runs the port Huron recruitment center.
Celorza
Well-known member
Echo Six Whiskey, I read you loud and clear this is Tango Delta Vodka
Can we get an ETA on an Air Strike? About a Click off from Mich's house should be enough to make him get the point.
Tango Delta Voka out!
mich29
Board Sponsor
sad this couldn't have stayed a simple debate without the use of name calling and a negative rep.I guess we will agree to disagree on this matter.I believe women should have the same right to enlist as men into platoons and any other area regardless on if I believe its safe or not it shouldn't be anyone's place to say you can't do something because you feel they are inferior to you.
jimbuick
Legend
Invalid Link Removed
Check that PT standard difference.
But of course, you have absolutely no experience AT ALL and will continue to disagree with all of the people who have FIRST HAND experience.
Hell, my minimum for pushups is 100% for a woman of the same age, which is ridiculous.
Danb2285
Well-known member
You say that now...until that women who has the same rights as you has to save your ass on the front line, but can't because she's not strong enough to move you around...BUT she passed her PT test and meets the physical standards so it's ok right?
mich29
Board Sponsor
Experience has nothing to do with it.prejudge is prejudge.
I'm aware of the requirements I've already had this debate with others who have served on the matter long before this thread was even created.if your that scared because a woman is next to you in a bunker and you don't feel your safe you shouldn't have signed up in the first place.saying they can't serve simply because they are a woman is no difference then any other form of prejudge I'm not saying they aren't a risk if you had read through my response instead of raving like a mad man you would have noticed that. I am saying they should have the right.
mikeg313
Well-known member
You have completely missed the points made on the matter and choose to see it as a women's rights issue. There's are point where things cease to be sexist and are just true.
mich29
Board Sponsor
I've addressed this in the thread above.
jimbuick
Legend
Experience has EVERYTHING to do with it.
I'm not talking about a woman being on a FOB with me or in garrison with me being a problem, I'm talking about a woman being in combat with me and not being physically capable to do things that need to be done for everyone to survive. I'm talking about making movements with rucks that weigh as much as she does and other members of the PLT having to take some of her load because she can't handle it.
I've seen the women that wear the same uniform as me out and about doing PT and doing Ruck Marches (with only 35 pounds) and they can't keep the pace that their unit is going at and my unit RUNS with ours.
Forgive me for not having faith in a woman because I've seen them in action and they can't survive the cut.
Danb2285
Well-known member
Soo the men signing up and dying in those bunkers don't have the right to at least be as safe as possible and deserve to be put at more "risk" than they already are? If they should have the right they should have to match our physical standards.