When I Lose Control.....I Like It! Prop/Tren A

June 10, 2005

Bodyweight: 248

Workout

Conventional Deadlifts 225x5 275x5, 335x2x5, 315x7
Leg Extensions 60,80,90x15, 100x15, 110x10
Calf Raises 330x20

Cardio

Elliptical 60:00, 900 kcals

Notes

My form broke down quite a bit on the second set of deads with 335. Still getting stronger though, so I am happy. Cardio has felt quite good except for having knee problems. I got a x-large knee brace and am going to try it starting tomorrow. Overall, I am having almost no arrhythmic heart beats now and I think the cardio has been helping out somewhat.
 
Cardinal said:
Thanks Redspy. Glad it has been of some interest and hopefully is useful as well.
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It's definitely interesting, my next cycle will consist of test cyp and tren e. Although they're different esters it's interesting to observe the positive effects and side effects.
 
Wow cardinal just checking in, you have put on some serious mass since you started cycling here at AM...

Great log here (they always are), I will check out your bulker log I missed ASAP.
 
Redspy said:
It's definitely interesting, my next cycle will consist of test cyp and tren e. Although they're different esters it's interesting to observe the positive effects and side effects.
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That is definitely a good plan. I don't know if I am the best example for Tren. I sure have experienced far fewer side effects than I expected and than I usually do. I am happiest about not getting any hair loss from it. I think I probably would have had to stop if I did (or go bald).

I think Test E/Tren E would be a perfect bulker for me. I am definitely going to stock up on Tren E first chance I get.
 
cr4ytonic said:
Wow cardinal just checking in, you have put on some serious mass since you started cycling here at AM...

Great log here (they always are), I will check out your bulker log I missed ASAP.
Click to expand...

Thanks for stopping by cr4ytonic! Yep, I put on about 50 not so clean pounds on my first bulker. Definitely satisfied with it and am much happier now at 250 than I was back at 180 before cycling here at AM.

I can't wait to bulk again. This log will probably be my first where I haven't tried to put on muscle mass substantially. It has been a really pleasant strength cycle so far though.

After this cycle, I'll probably continue to slowly cut naturally until I get to where I can reasonable bulk again. Then it is Tren E + whatever else hehe.
 
June 11, 2005

Bodyweight: 247

Workout

CGBP 225x5
HS Incline 250x5, 200x8, 180x8
JM Press 135x9, 135x2x10
Laterals 30x13
Tates 35x14, 35x12, 35x11

Cardio

Elliptical 45:00

Notes

I am up a clear 5 lbs on all my pushing work. Strength is increasing at a rate about half as fast as during week 1-2. That is still plenty for me.

I am definitely noticing more night sweats. I woke up this afternoon after a nap with quite a bit of wetness around my neck. For better or worse I think I'll keep the dose a bit higher injecting 75mg tren every 24-36 hours for awhile to see if I notice more thermogenic benefits. I must watch it though, as I may run out too fast that way. I'd like to make it a full 8 weeks if possible. I'll have to use a bit of prop to make it that long and I am definitely still losing a lot of hair when I include the prop.
 
June 12, 2005

Cardio

Walking/Hiking 135 minutes, moderate pace

Notes

Well, after taking stock of how much Tren I actually have, versus how much I would like to have, I seem to have come up a bit short (part of my **** is mixed with prop unfortunately). So I have decided to add 30mg of Superdrol per day for the remainder of my cycle and keep the dose of Tren fairly low (a bit more than 75mg eod). I seem to handle both compounds fairly well, so I don't foresee a big problem here. No doubt I will get a strength boost from the SD.

The prop I have injected over the last few days sure has made me look a lot fuller and better overall. I really need to work on a way to limit hair loss. If I could that, I think I would be set with prop.
 
June 13, 2005

Bodyweight: 247

Workout

HS High Row 260x6, 280x4
Chins 247x2x5, 247x4
Pulldowns 180x8, 120x15
Curls 60x7, 60x6, 60x7
Shrugs 185x20

Cardio

Elliptical 60:00 850 kcals

Notes

I woke up with a good deal more muscle hardness. Arms measured about an 1/8th inch bigger and the skin was a lot tighter. SD sure is a nice compound for how quickly it starts to work and how good of a cell-volumizer it is.
 
June 14, 2005

Bodyweight: 246

Cardio

Elliptical 63:00, 900 kcals

Notes

I am running a short trial with hoodia to see what sort of an effect it has on my appetite. Given its somewhat foul taste, methinks it may prove a decent suppressant.
 
June 15, 2005

Bodyweight: 245

Workout

Squats 135x8, 155x8, 175x7, 205x7, 225x4
Leg Extensions 6 sets

Cardio

Elliptical 63:00, 900 kcals

Notes

Am waiting on the caps to see about continuing the hoodia. So far I noticed no effect from about 1g/dose I took each day.
 
June 17, 2005

Bodyweight: 246
Blood Pressure: 141/73

Workout

CGBP 230x5, 185x9, 185x8
DB OH Press 70x8, 80x4
Smith BB OH Press 175x8
Laterals 30x13, 40x5
Tates/DB Bench 45x8, 50x8, 55x7, 60x6
Side Bends 90x20

Cardio

Elliptical 60:00, 900 kcals

Notes

I was at Sam's and decided to have my blood pressure check. As usual the cuff was too small, but it gave a consistent reading as far as I could tell. It was a bit lower than I expected, but still too high for my liking. I have some valsartan coming and I will hopefully be able to start it during my cycle so I can check what sort of an effect an ARB has.

As usual, I was predictably stronger. Felt like I had all sorts of energy and could lift for hours (with all the BSing I did in the gym today that is about how long it took). I think the SD has kicked in. Its about the right time at day five.

Regarding the dose of AAS I am using, I will make a report at the end as I have tended to vary it a fair amount. I don't seem to be losing a lot of hair at the moment, so I am stilling going with a lot of prop.

For better or worse, I am doing my best to eat a bit less, hoping to accelerate fatloss somewhat.
 
June 18, 2005

Bodyweight: 244

Cardio

Elliptical 90:00, 1310 kcals
Lawn Care 75 minutes moderate activity
 
June 19, 2005

Bodyweight: 245

Workout

Conventional Deads 345x5, 315x7
Chins 245x2x5
HS High Rows 200x10, 180x12
HS Low Rows 200x12, 200x12
Curls 60x8, 65x4

Cardio

Elliptical 60:00, 800+ kcals

Notes

I got a 10 lb PR on the deadlifts but my form was not good and I was rounding my back too much. Just felts plain too heavy. Next go round I will either just stick with the same weight or maybe work a few singles. My legs shake a heck of a lot on the way up. That is not a problem on reps 2-5. Whole workout sort of felt a bit too heavy. I did finally get another rep on curls though.
 
June 21, 2005

Bodyweight: 243.5

Workout

Incline Bench 135x7, 155x7, 175x7, 195x2x7
DB OH Press 60x2x8, 60x9
Pushdowns 30x10, 30x12, 40x10
Flies 40x15, 40x10

Cardio

Elliptical 60:00, 850 kcals

Notes

Took the day off from cardio yesterday. It felt good to be off and it felt even better to get back to it today. I went with a light workout switching the exercises I normally do substantially. My joints have been giving me a little trouble. I think partly it is due to the lowered cho and calories of late.

Fat Loss So Far

I took a waist measurement this morning before breakfast. At about 243.5 lbs, my waist is down to just over 40". So I have lost at least an inch thus far with no noticeable muscle loss at all. Arms are measuring the same size as when I started. What additional fat I lose on this cycle is gravy and will help me move toward my longer term goal of getting a 38" gut. Regardless of whether or not I have built new lbm, I am quite pleased thus far with the recomp effect of what I am taking. I have to say though, I expected this from something like Prop/Tren.
 
June 22, 2005

Cardio

Elliptical 65:00, 925 kcals

Notes

Still noticing really high energy levels and endurance overall. It will be interesting to see how much of it remains after the cycle is over. I have a tendency to think that a lot of it is just caused by me getting in better cardiovascular condition in general and actually doing daily cardio.
 
June 23, 2005

Bodyweight: 244

Workout

Squats 135x10, 155x10, 175x10, 195x9
Leg Extensions 50x15, 70x15, 80x2x15, 90x15
Lunges 30x1

Cardio

Elliptical 63:00, 900 kcals
 
June 24, 2005

Bodyweight: 244

Cardio

Elliptical: 65:00, 925 kcals

Notes

Going to wait to take any more measurements, but fat loss seems like it is gliding along nicely. I may have to reduce my prop dose again. Hair loss definitely is still a big issue.
 
June 25, 2005

Bodyweight: 240

Workout

Chins 240x2x7
HS High Row 200x8, 220x8, 240x7
Isolateral Pulldowns 180x10, 230x6
Curls 60x7, 55x10, 35x20
C Curls 35x10

Cardio

Elliptical 60:00, 855kcals

Notes

Bodyweight is down due to a lack of Test Prop. Had a little insomnia last night. Overall, I just haven't gotten that much insomnia from Tren on this cycle. It could of been b/c I was swallowing hoodia caps like they were candy pretty late in the evening. Not sure if those are even working or not.
 
June 26, 2005

Bodyweight: 242

Workout

CGBP 195x5, 215x6, 235x5, 205x6, 205x5
DB Bench 80x8
Incline DB Bench 80x7
HS Tricep Extensions 100x15, 120x14, 120x15
Pushdowns 30x2x8

Cardio

Elliptical 63:00, 925 kcals

Notes

Mood is exceptionally good overall. Not that it is ever all that bad, but I just feel friggin great for some reason.
 
June 27, 2005

Bodyweight: 242

Cardio

Elliptical: 90:00, 1335 kcals

Notes

Cardio felt really easy today, so I did a little extra. That and a high general activity level should certainly boost fatloss.
 
June 28, 2005

Bodyweight: 241

Workout

Conventional Deads 135x10, 225x10, 275x10, 315x8
Squats 135x10, 155x10, 175x10, 195x9
Leg Extensions 70x14, 90x13, 110x10

Cardio

Elliptical 65:00, 925 kcals

Notes

Workout went really well. It was definitely tough though. Leg day with deads in there always is. I decided not to load up too much weight on the deadlifts, preferring instead a lighter workout. Squatting felt good to me. Last set was appropriately challenging.

I didn't feel much like doing cardio after squats, but once I got on the machine it felt fine. My heart rate has only been about 125-130 lately at 65rpm on the elliptical. So it is feeling pretty good overall.

Nothing much new to report in the way of androgens, except that some of the puffiness has gone away since I dropped out the prop. So far libido is still strong.
 
June 29, 2005

Bodyweight: 240

Cardio

Elliptical 110:00, 1560 kcals

Notes

Okay, maybe a little excessive on the cardio. So it goes.

Although I can't be certain, I think that the appetite suppression from Tren is dose dependent (as it should be). I am down closer to 75mg eod again to make sure I have enough to last me the full cycle and I am experiencing a bit more hunger. Nothing out of control at all, but definitely noticable.
 
June 30, 2005

Bodyweight: 241

Workout

Incline DB 50x10, 65x10, 80x10
Chins 240x7
Pullups 240x4
HS High Rows 200x3x10
Curls 60x8, 65x4, 50x10, 60x7

Cardio

Elliptical 95:00, 1350 kcals

Notes

Predictably, after completely dropping out the Prop, my hairloss has all but subsided. The small bit of shedding I am getting now is from low dose Nolva.

I have a case of runners knee that has been causing some discomfort when I use the elliptical. It seems now though for some reason it is tracking a bit better and not really causing as much pain. I am not complaining about that one.

Bodyfat

Waistline is definitely down to 39" now. So I have lost more than 2" so far this cycle. At the pace I am going I should be able to knock of at least another inch by cycles end. I am honestly considering extending the cycle as long as the fat loss is working so well. I know when I hit PCT I will need to be at least at maintenance to ensure proper recovery.
 
July 1, 2005

Bodyweight: 241

Cardio

Elliptical 120:00, 1715 kcals

Notes

Did a lot of cardio to bide time more than anything. Looking for a second job at the moment and a girlfriend. Good news is I think I have a shot at both.
 
July 2, 2005

Bodyweight: 240

Workout

CGBP 215x5, 235x5, 225x5
DB OH Press 60x10, 70x8, 80x4, 60x10, 65x10
Tate Press 40x10, 50x8, 55x2x6
Pushdowns 30x15

Cardio

Elliptical 122:00, 1700 kcals

Notes

Hmmm. It looks like my strength has stabilized a bit. I don't think I am using anywhere near enough drugs :twisted:
 
Good log. Man, thats a long freakin time on the elliptical. You've got some serious dedication on the cardio. I get bored to death after 30-45min of it. Good luck with the rest of the cycle. Later, Anthony
 
Anthony:

You know, I don't think I have ever felt better doing cardio my whole life. It sure is nice to find something easy enough on the joints that I can pretty much do every day. The boredom has been an issue for me, but oddly only when I plan on going a short timeframe, i.e. 30 minutes or so. But that is greatly overshadowed by my reasons for wanting to lose body fat. Additionally, it really seems to make my heart feel better. Definitely has had a positive impact on my heart arrhythmias.

A year or two ago when I had a pretty bad binge eating disorder, you probably couldn't force me on a cardio machine. I came as close to loathing activity (other than lifting) as I ever have. That slowly changed after I got rid of the disorder. I have since found that I can create enough of a caloric deficit through cardio to lose bodyfat even at pretty high calories (4000+). I wasn't certain if I would ever be comfortable enough dieting to get lean enough to see abs again. It wasn't worth it to me to regain the eating disorder. Fortunately, a deficit isn't at all a deficit and I feel mentally fine on 4000 kcals a day. Very few thoughts of starvation that plagued me for so long. So overall I am pretty happy with what has occurred thusfar.

I still have a long way to go in terms of actual weightloss, but mentally I am quite comfortable with the situation. I get a bit impatient, but definitely don't feel at all like I am suffering or deprived in any way. So cutting for months legitimately has a different feel for me now than it used to.

-Cardinal
 
July 3, 2005

Bodyweight: 238

Workout

Squats 135x10, 155x10, 175x10, 195x10, 220x5, 195x8, 175x9

Cardio

Elliptical 95:00

Notes

I just decided to do squats for my whole leg workout. Didn't bother with leg extensions and I didn't plan on doing deads again until next time. I got the workout done in less than a half hour. Plenty of time to bask in the sun and swim. Damn, its a hard life these days.
 
I didnt realize you were eating 4000 cal. I can see how you can do all that cardio now. Im cutting right now so I would probably encounter too much catabolism doin that much. The boredom is getting less. I have just been renting dvd's and watching them while I do my cardio. You gave me a little inspiration so I went for 45min on the treadmill today instead of my normal 30. I will probably stick with 45 for a couple weeks then go for an hour. My cardio has been goin better than ever as well. My mom just had a quadruple bypass. It pretty bad in her family so I have completely changed the way that I eat and have started doin cardio. I dont wanna have a heart attack at 35. Im still young but I want to make every precaution that I can. Later, Anthony
 
mass_builder said:
Nice work bro, sorry i didnt read the whole thread,
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That is okay. I tend to ramble quite a bit anyhow.

but did you extend your cycle beyond 6 weeks?!
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I did. It is going to be an 8-10 weeker on short esters when it is all said and done with. I am probably about to start my 8th week. I do however lose track of time occasionally, especially regarding how long I have actually been on. The trend these days seems to be to run Tren at least 8 weeks. Regardless of what advice I have been given, I would probably have extended the cycle no matter what. I may not be far from having lost too much hair to continue. Either that will be the limiting factor or I will simply quite when I run out of Prop/Tren. Both are about equally probable at this point and will leave me with an 8-10 week cycle in sum.
 
Ant. said:
I didnt realize you were eating 4000 cal. I can see how you can do all that cardio now.
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Yep. I can't give an exact amount b/c I am not counting calories (scale and tape measure are good enough guides to progress). But 4000 is my best estimate for the cycle. No less than 3500 that is for sure.


Im cutting right now so I would probably encounter too much catabolism doin that much.
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Agreed. A pretty strong dose of AAS is needed to do what I am doing successfully, even for someone that is a reasonable endomorph.

The boredom is getting less. I have just been renting dvd's and watching them while I do my cardio. You gave me a little inspiration so I went for 45min on the treadmill today instead of my normal 30. I will probably stick with 45 for a couple weeks then go for an hour. My cardio has been goin better than ever as well. My mom just had a quadruple bypass. It pretty bad in her family so I have completely changed the way that I eat and have started doin cardio. I dont wanna have a heart attack at 35. Im still young but I want to make every precaution that I can. Later, Anthony
Click to expand...

I have been doing the same, except I split up my cardio and dvd watching. Watching the dvd's seems to take my mind off of eating a bit.

I am really glad to hear you are making changes for the better. Thankfully your mom caught the problem before it was too late. It is unfortunate, but occasionally some bad things have to happen before we can really clearly see the big picture and what is important.

Having a higher quality of life overall is one of the reasons I use said performance enhancing substances. But it is a fine line that we all walk and it can be easy to get a little careless, especially with those most basic things we know we need to be doing.

Take it easy.
 
July 5, 2005

Bodyweight: 235

Workout

Chins 235x8, 235x7, 235x6, 235x5
HS Low Rows 180x12, 220x10, 260x10, 300x7
Curls 60x8, 55x8, 50x8

Cardio

Elliptical 75:00, 1055 kcals

Notes

Nothing much to note. Weighed in a bit less than I expected to after the fourth. I was pretty dried out though as I only lost a pound or so after 75 minutes of cardio.

I think I am going to try about 3 months of Finasteride to see if I notice improvement in shedding. I feel like I should give it an honest shot. Dosing will be twice a day, moderate amount (need to check). If I can stop the hair loss from Test, I would pretty much be set as I know how to control the gyno and don't really get other side effects from it.
 
Built

I am probably still a little over 20% at least. Waist measured 38.8" or so last time I took it. I started around 41.25-41.5" or so, so I have gone from looking quite fat to pretty normal. I think I'll be happy when I hit 38" and ready to bulk again when I get down to about 36" or so.

I don't want to get too far below 225 if I don't have to. Someone said when I was 250, it would take getting down to 210 to be pretty lean. I think they were pretty well spot on.
 
July 6, 2005

Bodyweight: 234

Cardio

Elliptical 91:00, 1300 kcals

Notes

Feeling good at the lighter weight. Going to try to keep it kind of stable around 230-235 while still dropping fat. Means a bit more food and maybe a bitmore drugs. Cardio workin too well to stop. My knees are feeling really good now.
 
July 7, 2005

Bodyweight: 239 :thumbsup:

Workout

DB OH Press 60x10, 70x6, 80x7, 70x7, 70x2x8
JM Press 135x10, 155x10, 175x7, 175x7
CGBP 185x8
Pushdowns 30x13, 40x7, 30x3x11

Cardio

Elliptical 91:00, 1300 kcals

Notes

I like Test Prop.
 
July 8, 2005

Bodyweight: 239.5

Workout

Squat 135x10, 155x10, 175x10, 205x8, 205x7, 205x6
Conventional Deadlifts 225x10, 275x10, 295x6

Cardio

Elliptical 65:00, 915 kcals

Notes

I ran out of gas on the deadlifts. Seems better to do them first then squat. Took me an extra 10 minutes or so on cardio to get back to feeling normal and for the legs to work right.
 
July 9, 2005

Bodyweight: 237

Cardio

Elliptical 85:00, 1225 kcals

Notes

Went out for italian last night. Had a bunch of buttered popcorn and Dr. Pepper. Woke up a couple lbs lighter.
 
July 10, 2005

Bodyweight: 239

Workout

HS High Rows 140x10 200x10 240x10 260x7 280x4 220x10
HS Low Rows 200x10, 220x10, 240x10
Curls 60x9, 55x8, 50x7

Cardio

Elliptical 65:00, 935 kcals
 
Cardinal,
You mentioned in the beginning of the thread that you heard about prop sides ie :hairloss. I have never heard of the ester having an effect of hair. Or is it all test products that cause you to shed.
And in terms of you own problem two things. How often to you apply your Spiro? ANd have you taking the finasteride since the beginning of the cycle or just recently?
 
Hey LCSULLA,

Its definitely not the ester causing the problem but just that I am taking testosterone. I shed on all Test products I have used including 4AD.

I actually am not using Spiro now. My plan was to apply it about 3 times per day due to a shorter half life if I am remembering correctly. But whenever I tried to apply it, the physical process of putting it on at all seemed to cause so much more shedding that it just wasn't worth it to me, so I am not using it or AA.

I haven't honestly given finasteride a long term shot yet. I think I will start it after pct actually just in case it gives me trouble with libido. Pirate brought this point up to me on Ironmagazineforums. Then will run it for 3 months at maybe 2-3 mg ed at most. I am not convinced that starting it right now will stop the loss in time. Best thing for me to do is just stop the cycle soonish and that will stop the shedding gauranteed. I'll use the finasteride as a main means of hair loss recovery in the next few months. Hopefully it will help. And then I will probably keep taking it if it works throughout my next long test cycle, whenever that is.
 
Cardinal said:
Hey LCSULLA,

Its definitely not the ester causing the problem but just that I am taking testosterone. I shed on all Test products I have used including 4AD.

I actually am not using Spiro now. My plan was to apply it about 3 times per day due to a shorter half life if I am remembering correctly. But whenever I tried to apply it, the physical process of putting it on at all seemed to cause so much more shedding that it just wasn't worth it to me, so I am not using it or AA.

I haven't honestly given finasteride a long term shot yet. I think I will start it after pct actually just in case it gives me trouble with libido. Pirate brought this point up to me on Ironmagazineforums. Then will run it for 3 months at maybe 2-3 mg ed at most. I am not convinced that starting it right now will stop the loss in time. Best thing for me to do is just stop the cycle soonish and that will stop the shedding gauranteed. I'll use the finasteride as a main means of hair loss recovery in the next few months. Hopefully it will help. And then I will probably keep taking it if it works throughout my next long test cycle, whenever that is.
Click to expand...

Ok. I would start it in PCT as well. But it takes months for it to have the desired effect
(hair regowth) but i would bet a few weeks to see the sheeding drop off.. You should also combine it with 5% rogaine (generic) for enhanced results. AA on the other hand is worthless as a primary anti-hairloss agent. IMO you need the big guns ie: Rogaine 5%, Propecia/Proscar or Avodart. And the last three's libido issue is over blown. I think that Proscar (5mg) has a statisical percentage of 3-4% of users experiancing that problem. And then the variation is + or - 3%. Plus a lot of guys blame 5-alpha blockers if they had a bad day of performing in the sack. Or they couldn't get it up because they have been working 12hr days for two weeks. So there are a lot of variants as to why someone is having so libido issues..not just Propecia/Proscar.

On a side note I would LOVE to try Tren but I scared shitless that I will lose my hair in droves. Have you noticed any increased shedding on Fina? And have you heard of other experiancing similar situations as yours: hairloss on Test but not on Fina?
 
Thanks for the feedback on Finasteride. It probably would be good to get a jump on it now. I also saw a pretty low figure for people with libido problems.

I had initially planned to use spiro about 3x per day due to a relatively shorter half life. But I found that I was shedding so much just due to the application process, it wasn't worth it to me. I also didn't want to use anything that might increase shedding initially. (Same with rogaine, I don't want to stay on that indefinitely). I would rather give finasteride an independent trial so that I can really judge how effective it is by itself. It may be all that I need. In theory that should work well with shedding from Test.

Tren: You might as well give it a shot imo. Just use the short ester and if you start losing a lot of hair from it, just quit and it should be out of your system shortly. Half life is only three days I think. But no, I haven't come across anyone else that had as bad of a problem with Testosterone but almost no trouble at all using Tren. In many ways I wish it were the other way around. I want to be able to use test moreso than tren despite how awesome tren is. The eventual recovery problems would just be too much after longterm use imo.
 
July 12, 2005

Bodyweight: 238

Workout

HS Incline Press 160x10 200x8 240x6 260x5 220x2x8
HS Shoulder Press 240x7
DB OH Press 65x8
HS Tricep 120x12, 140x10, 160x7
Kickbacks 35x12

Cardio

Elliptical 65:00 955 kcals

Notes

HS machines sure felt really good on my joints. It is amazing how simply choosing the right movements and taking time to avoid activities that bother my joints really does help. Being on Test/Tren may certainly negatively impact joint health, but I sure can't tell it now. Since I stopped doing calf work, I no longer have achilles tendon pain at all.
 
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