What's your COVID-19 gameplan?

muscleupcrohn

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in all fairness mosques should be included in this conversation.
All places of worship really, for sure. But given that the people ITT arguing to keep them open all seem to be Christians, the lingo has reflected that I suppose. I have heard about mosques in various places around the world staying open in large gatherings and leading to outbreaks, and a few churches in the US refusing to close or even limit gathering sizes. That said, of the three Abrahamic faiths, I haven’t heard any Synagogues staying open, have you?
 
Jiigzz

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Is there potential for them to get covid-19 yes. Is there potential for them to then get others sick who don't practice social distracting or who come in unprotected contact with essential workers yes. Is there potential just the same for essential workers to get everyone who goes to the store, bus, train, hospital, jail, police station sick yes. The only way to not get sick is to stay home or practicing social distancing while wearing a mask and taking proper measures.

Who is at greater risk someone who goes to church and is exposed to dozens of people at once for an hour or so. Or an essential worker who comes into contact with dozens of people over the course of 8-10 hours? Now that is a good question.
Essential services are essential to keep the essential things moving. Nurses, doctors, supermarket employees, etc etc etc. Without these people working, things would hit the fan very quick.

You're also not asking the appropriate questions. It isnt about weighing things up to whether they are more of an exposure than essential services, its about whether or not these things are actually needed to be visited at all.

Church isnt essential to visit. There are other ways of exercising faith that dont require an actual physical visit to a building. You can have church over web link. You can have church at home with family. Didn't God say "when 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them"? If so, why not just have church with family? Why do you need to worship with 50 or more others?

So it's an unnecessary exposure to physically go out and physically interact with people for that reason.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Essential services are essential to keep the essential things moving. Nurses, doctors, supermarket employees, etc etc etc. Without these people working, things would hit the fan very quick.

You're also not asking the appropriate questions. It isnt about weighing things up to whether they are more of an exposure than essential services, its about whether or not these things are actually needed to be visited at all.

Church isnt essential to visit. There are other ways of exercising faith that dont require an actual physical visit to a building. You can have church over web link. You can have church at home with family. Didn't God say "when 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them"? If so, why not just have church with family? Why do you need to worship with 50 or more others?

So it's an unnecessary exposure to physically go out and physically interact with people for that reason.
Jesus also worked on the Sabbath when it meant helping people. He was about doing what helped people above blind, ritual observance. So if staying home and doing online service or reading the Bible at home with your family can save lives, then it’s logical this is the Christian thing to do, if you think Christian means Christ-like, that is.

He also said to follow laws, yet some of these Church leaders happily disregard them, claiming to be doing it in God’s name. Laughable.
 
Jiigzz

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I'm asking you to look at this from a viewpoint from those immunocompromised. You seem incapable of that.

COVID is a greater risk and I haven't stated otherwise both to those immunocompromised and the "healthy" who's immune systems are unable to fight it off.

Most people here I presume consider themselves healthy and are not concerned about how the flu or cold affects the immunocompromised which is a bit ironic as many who get covid-19 and have mild symptoms have immune systems strong enough to overcome it. Others without as strong of a immune system can not. It's all about degrees.

Also potentials as you said but what more can be done? Martial law? No going out for any reason. You want to blame church goers because you feel they are risking the potential to overwhelm hospitals because of their beliefs. Would you equally blame essential workers for doing the same? Or is this a game of blaming those who do something because of religion vs their job? There's potentials for many things in life and short of martial law you are not going to stop people from living their lives the way they want to because you feel they could get you or someone you know sick.
Only 20% of all reported cases have recovered so far. So how can you say the majority recover, when the majority haven't recovered yet? In the US the total recovered to total dead are closer 2:1 IIRC. I'm not saying the majority won't recover, but at present the recovered:death ratio is about 4:1, which isnt exceptionally different

20% of the total infected are experiencing severe symptoms. This includes young and old.

If an essential worker gets me sick, I won't complain because there works is essential to ensure people are still fed, that people can be treated, that law can still be upheld and so on. If a church-goer gets me sick, then you better believe I'm going to get mad about that. That's the difference between essential services are people just wanting to do stuff.

I'd also get mad if the person went to a party, went out socializing, or otherwise flouted the social distancing recommendation unless it was absolutely necessary for them to do so.
 
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Jiigzz

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Jesus also worked on the Sabbath when it meant helping people. He was about doing what helped people above blind, ritual observance. So if staying home and doing online service or reading the Bible at home with your family can save lives, then it’s logical this is the Christian thing to do, if you think Christian means Christ-like, that is.

He also said to follow laws, yet some of these Church leaders happily disregard them, claiming to be doing it in God’s name. Laughable.
My parents church has closed its doors over our lockdown. Noone complained, they just have a live streamed service and they continue to exercise their faith at home and with each other.

Comparing going to church to an essential worker during this time is actually insulting. The essential workers are literally risking it all to care for you, and here people are arguing why you shouldnt have to stay home.
 
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Godstrength

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It's funny in the past people listened to religious leaders unquestioningly by divine right. Now we listen to leaders who cite experts unquestioningly to avoid social scrutiny. It's a fine line between control and risk. It does not have to be black and white.

Personally if people want to go to church I think the churches should test everyone prior to admittance. This way the risk of anyone getting or giving the virus is mute.
And where would the churches get these tests? Also should the grocery stores then have to do it as well? Or gas stations? Any place where there could be more than 10 people
 
Nac

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Thank you for answering.

So if you got someone sick and they died you feel you are not at fault only because most people don't die of the flu or because they were immunocompromised and that's on them?

These are important questions moreso because they focus us to think how we weight considerations for not just ourselves but others. If the majority considers it commonplace then I guess **** the minorities.
I would feel bad, and responsible. But I recognise that as an irrational reaction and feeling. But Id experience it nonetheless. So theres one kind of "fault".

The other kind of "fault", would I consider myself criminally culpable? No, because I dont think my actions were reckless.

Arguably, we all have to live with some kind of "disability", or impedement, to use very loose senses of the terms. There is a balance I think we make, and should make, between the idea we are just thrown into the world and have to best make do with what we have...and that we want to treat everyone equally without prejudice.
 
Godstrength

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Every time you go out you risk exposure. That’s why we limit things to “essential” services, and, even then, try to practice social distancing via having separation in lines, not having dine-in at restaurants, etc.

So, having church services where you have hundreds of people all in very close proximity for an extended period of time, you create a hotspot of potential exposure.

“Now that is a good question.” Lol, no it’s not. The essential worker who is exposed to people for 8-10 hours a day has to work to keep society functioning. No cashier at Publix, no food. No food, you die. The mechanic has to fix the nurse’s car, because no car for nurse, no nurse for COVID patient. No nurse for patient, and you have dead patient.

So, now, with your carte blanche verdict on unrestricted church gatherings, these essential employees now come in contact with, and potentially expose, hundreds of people in a single room, who can then go on to expose thousands more people.

All to worship a God that is within us all at all times, when online services are offered everywhere, and when a core tenant of God/Jesus’ teachings is to love others, and to put others needs before our own. How is having to get our weekly church-kick at the potential expense of vulnerable people a Godly thing to do?
It's about faith bro, and someone who has faith and believes God is sovereign believes all things happen exactly as they should. Including the right that the government has freely given to worship in a service. the government has approved it and as of right now no matter how you justify not being right it is permissable.

two things are for certain in this lifetime one is the day you were born into is the day you will die. We all have a window no one has control over that. I do believe in using common sense and being smart but I also believe in a higher power that has allowed all this as well as ordained the government's that are set in place in the decisions being made. Now I don't want to get into a debate about that that's just my belief.

I do know that somebody who does believe and has real Faith a lot of people come out of the woodworks to just spew hatred for anything related to that. People judge what they don't understand and so whatever their experience has been with Christianity a lot of people lump them all together in a box as if they're all the same.

I do believe it's probably not wise but is also a constitutional right to freely worship and so as it stands whatever someone stance towards it is not going to change what it is
 
muscleupcrohn

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It's about faith bro, and someone who has faith and believes God is sovereign believes all things happen exactly as they should. Including the right that the government has freely given to worship in a service. the government has approved it and as of right now no matter how you justify not being right it is permissable.

two things are for certain in this lifetime one is the day you were born into is the day you will die. We all have a window no one has control over that. I do believe in using common sense and being smart but I also believe in a higher power that has allowed all this as well as ordained the government's that are set in place in the decisions being made. Now I don't want to get into a debate about that that's just my belief.

I do know that somebody who does believe and has real Faith a lot of people come out of the woodworks to just spew hatred for anything related to that. People judge what they don't understand and so whatever their experience has been with Christianity a lot of people lump them all together in a box as if they're all the same.

I do believe it's probably not wise but is also a constitutional right to freely worship and so as it stands whatever someone stance towards it is not going to change what it is
There is so much wrong with this; I don't even know where to begin, but I'll try. The cop-out that "all things happen exactly as they should" does not excuse or justify humans acting like selfish, entitled pricks, nor does it excuse any potential penalties/punishments/karma (depending on your religion) that said actions result in.

Yes, Christians claim that they're saved by faith, not by works (but the idea of faith without works is a pretty contested hot-topic among theologians; See James 2 for just the tip of this iceberg), but it can logically follows that if you believe something, you will act in accordance with it. Inversely, if you don't act in accordance with something, it can be argued that you don't truly believe in it.

A core pillar of Jesus' teachings is to put others before ourselves, and to put helping others above blind, dogmatic adherence to rituals (see Jesus working on the Sabbath to help people). With this in mind, and that it is entirely possible to worship without going to a packed Mega-Church, it seems that the most "Christ-like" action would be to stay home and not potentially risk peoples' lives, as by not risking lives, you're doing the most to save lives at the end of the day.

Would you call yourself a "good Christian" because of your "perfect attendance" at Church, or would you call yourself a "good Christian" because you try to live as much as you can, though we are all imperfect, in accordance with the teachings of Jesus, not only on Sunday morning, but in every action at all times.

And even if the government has approved of the right to worship, that doesn't mean that gathering sizes aren't subject to restrictions during this time, such as a limit of 10-50-etc. people as some states or municipalities can. If this were true, as you claim, that no limits can be placed on the amount of people that can gather in a single religious assembly, then Churches are exempt from building/fire codes that limit building occupancy. But, seeing as this is clearly not the case, Churches are in no way exempt from gathering-size restrictions. You can argue they can stay open, maybe, but not that they can have unlimited gathering sizes and no social distancing practices (see hundred of people sitting shoulder-to-shoulder).

You tell me I "judge what I don't understand?" Man, I was raised Jewish, and then for a period I attended Church regularly, multiple times a week, including Bible study and research sessions. I have read a ton of academic papers on the history of Abrahamic faiths and historical context, multiple translations and commentaries on the Bible, books written by some of the most influential Christian theologians in history, as well as reading from numerous other faiths/philosophies, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Stoicism, as well as how they all relate, compare, contrast, and interact with each other.

But clearly I just "don't understand" your faith. That's got to be it. Anyone who disagrees with you just doesn't get it. You have the monopoly on Christian theology. Catholicism has the Pope. Tibetan Buddhism has the Dalai Lama. Christianity has YOU.
 
Godstrength

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There is so much wrong with this; I don't even know where to begin, but I'll try. The cop-out that "all things happen exactly as they should" does not excuse or justify humans acting like selfish, entitled pricks, nor does it excuse any potential penalties/punishments/karma (depending on your religion) that said actions result in.

Yes, Christians claim that they're saved by faith, not by works (but the idea of faith without works is a pretty contested hot-topic among theologians; See James 2 for just the tip of this iceberg), but it can logically follows that if you believe something, you will act in accordance with it. Inversely, if you don't act in accordance with something, it can be argued that you don't truly believe in it.

A core pillar of Jesus' teachings is to put others before ourselves, and to put helping others above blind, dogmatic adherence to rituals (see Jesus working on the Sabbath to help people). With this in mind, and that it is entirely possible to worship without going to a packed Mega-Church, it seems that the most "Christ-like" action would be to stay home and not potentially risk peoples' lives, as by not risking lives, you're doing the most to save lives at the end of the day.

Would you call yourself a "good Christian" because of your "perfect attendance" at Church, or would you call yourself a "good Christian" because you try to live as much as you can, though we are all imperfect, in accordance with the teachings of Jesus, not only on Sunday morning, but in every action at all times.

And even if the government has approved of the right to worship, that doesn't mean that gathering sizes aren't subject to restrictions during this time, such as a limit of 10-50-etc. people as some states or municipalities can. If this were true, as you claim, that no limits can be placed on the amount of people that can gather in a single religious assembly, then Churches are exempt from building/fire codes that limit building occupancy. But, seeing as this is clearly not the case, Churches are in no way exempt from gathering-size restrictions. You can argue they can stay open, maybe, but not that they can have unlimited gathering sizes and no social distancing practices (see hundred of people sitting shoulder-to-shoulder).

You tell me I "judge what I don't understand?" Man, I was raised Jewish, and then for a period I attended Church regularly, multiple times a week, including Bible study and research sessions. I have read a ton of academic papers on the history of Abrahamic faiths and historical context, multiple translations and commentaries on the Bible, books written by some of the most influential Christian theologians in history, as well as reading from numerous other faiths/philosophies, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Stoicism, as well as how they all relate, compare, contrast, and interact with each other.

But clearly I just "don't understand" your faith. That's got to be it. Anyone who disagrees with you just doesn't get it. You have the monopoly on Christian theology. Catholicism has the Pope. Tibetan Buddhism has the Dalai Lama. Christianity has YOU.
okay but if you really had Faith like You proclaim you would understand that God is sovereign and everything does happen for a reason. No that doesn't give us a free pass to act however we want that wasn't the point. there's so much wrong with those statements I made from your perspective. And you're entitled to your opinion which is fine. like I said for someone who has real Faith they don't see the Bible as a book that you read and follow the instructions. You understand that what is authentic about it comes from something other than yourself. as each person feels lead they should do as they believe God is leading them. I can only claim responsibility for myself in that yes I do feel as a Christian that we are often lumped together and unfairly judged. I wasn't saying you specifically I was saying in general it happens quite regularly. And it's just hatred for "Christian population" 95% of the time.

Nobody's perfect bro we all need Jesus that's what I believe and we should invite God in our lives regularly. Yes you can worship from home through YouTube service etc but for some people there's just something else about that that you just may not understand. And that's okay too. This isn't the first time something has broken out and I would say as a whole the world right now is doing more than that was ever able to do before through technology, information, and research and medicine. Nobody really knows exactly how bad this wave will be but we do have to ride it. All of us we're all in this together and so while I believe that we should practice respecting each other. While I say that I would also say that someone who has faith, real Faith would die for their belief.


Now here we go you want to attack me personally and say I have a monopoly on faith. you're using the word theology which is a practical application of the meaning and teqching of the Bible. I'm not talking about theology I'm talking about faith.That's just ridiculous bro do you hear yourself? I have a monopoly because I have an opinion based on my own experience not what I read in a book or what somebody told me.
 
Godstrength

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Wait, didn't you just write a handful of paragraphs defending/justifying people going to Church?
LOL yes this is exactly my point unless you are testing everyone who is breathing around you and completely confining yourself there's a good chance you're at risk. What's going to happen is going to happen. That much I know
 
Godstrength

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Wait, didn't you just write a handful of paragraphs defending/justifying people going to Church?
Plus everyone knows you just love to argue and be right. So if anyone has a complex about being right in there beliefs... It's YOU bro.

I say this with love you're my forum bro, were all in this together. My opinion is my opinion. I don't really care who thinks it's right or wrong because it's mine and it's for me not somebody else.
 
muscleupcrohn

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okay but if you really had Faith like You proclaim you would understand that God is sovereign and everything does happen for a reason.
"Everything happens for a reason" can mean so much, it is devoid of all meaning. Yes, what happens will happen, but if you're going out to Church, increasing the likelihood of infecting other people, well, if you end up getting these people sick and they die, that's a result of YOUR actions; don't blame God or say it's His will. He allowed you to act like an idiot, and it may well cost real peoples' lives. It's one thing to say that you "really have faith," sure, go risk YOUR life, thinking that God will either protect you or you'll die, and that it's His will either way, but shame on you if you put OTHER peoples' lives at risk because you think if THEY die, it's "God's will," and there's nothing anyone could have done about it. Man, you could have not exposed them...

No that doesn't give us a free pass to act however we want that wasn't the point. there's so much wrong with those statements I made from your perspective. And you're entitled to your opinion which is fine. like I said for someone who has real Faith they don't see the Bible as a book that you read and follow the instructions. You understand that what is authentic about it comes from something other than yourself. as each person feels lead they should do as they believe God is leading them. I can only claim responsibility for myself in that yes I do feel as a Christian that we are often lumped together and unfairly judged. I wasn't saying you specifically I was saying in general it happens quite regularly. And it's just hatred for "Christian population" 95% of the time.
If you think that the Christ-like thing to do during a time like this is to go brush shoulders with 500 people for a few hours every Sunday, I have to question a LOT about your belief system and faith.

Nobody's perfect bro we all need Jesus that's what I believe and we should invite God in our lives regularly. Yes you can worship from home through YouTube service etc but for some people there's just something else about that that you just may not understand. And that's okay too. This isn't the first time something has broken out and I would say as a whole the world right now is doing more than that was ever able to do before through technology, information, and research and medicine. Nobody really knows exactly how bad this wave will be but we do have to ride it. All of us we're all in this together and so while I believe that we should practice respecting each other in that I would also say that someone who has faith, real Faith would die for that belief.
Yes, if YOU want to die for your faith, that's your right. Hell, if you want to off yourself for any reason, that's your right. But your faith shouldn't extend to other people who want nothing to do with it. You may say "if the virus kills me, it's God's will, so I'll go to Church with 500 people every Sunday." But what you fail to see in your narrowmindedness is that it's not just you that you're endangering. Hell, it's not even most likely you whose life you're endangering, but the people that will be exposed to the people at the Church.


Now here we go you want to attack me personally and say I have a monopoly on faith. That's just ridiculous bro do you hear yourself
Response bolded within above quote.

If YOU want to put YOURSELF in danger, thinking that God will protect you, or, if you die, it's His will, but by going to Church now, shoulder to shoulder with hundreds of people, you are putting countless other people at risk. It's not about YOUR faith, or putting yourself in danger, you have the right to go and hang yourself if you think that's what God wills you to do, but can you really argue that, if you get someone infected at the Supermarket because you caught COVID at Church, that this was just "God's will" and unpreventable? Or is it more likely that God gave you freewill, and simply allowed you to be a selfish ankle (in other words, three feet below a cunt), and show a blatant disregard for the wellbeing of others while proclaiming to live by the teachings of Jesus.
 
justhere4comm

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The whole breathing thing has to happen over 15-20 minutes exposure in the air.

There is no defense for reckless behavior of churchgoers in this time. They are creating an incubator-ium for this virus, and they will be responsible for spreading it to more people.

 
muscleupcrohn

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LOL yes this is exactly my point unless you are testing everyone who is breathing around you and completely confining yourself there's a good chance you're at risk. What's going to happen is going to happen. That much I know
So since there's an inherent level of risk to function as a society and not die of starvation, we should take no measures to limit exposure at all, and allow 500+ people to sit shoulder-to-shoulder for hours while patting themselves on the back for caring about other people. Bunch of whitewashed tombs if you ask me. Surely God cares more about your attendance record on Sunday than doing what you can to help vulnerable people and not put their literal lives at risk...
 
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Response bolded within above quote.

If YOU want to put YOURSELF in danger, thinking that God will protect you, or, if you die, it's His will, but by going to Church now, shoulder to shoulder with hundreds of people, you are putting countless other people at risk. It's not about YOUR faith, or putting yourself in danger, you have the right to go and hang yourself if you think that's what God wills you to do, but can you really argue that, if you get someone infected at the Supermarket because you caught COVID at Church, that this was just "God's will" and unpreventable? Or is it more likely that God gave you freewill, and simply allowed you to be a selfish ankle (in other words, three feet below a cunt), and show a blatant disregard for the wellbeing of others while proclaiming to live by the teachings of Jesus.
Sovereignty says yes God knows everything that will happen. I'm not sure if you understand the concept of sovereignty or not. But basically I also agree with you in the sense that if you're doing things and putting a god stamp on it doesn't necessarily mean it's God. I personally am not going to church that's my choice. But I also respect the right for other people to go as they are allowed by the government. At the end of the day the Bible says that all governments are put in place by God and that we are subject to obey them because he has ordained that. Since you like to use scriptures this is one that is applicable to what I'm talking about.
 
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So since there's an inherent level of risk to function as a society and not die of starvation, we should take no measures to limit exposure at all, and allow 500+ people to sit shoulder-to-shoulder for hours while patting themselves on the back for caring about other people. Bunch of whitewashed tombs if you ask me. Surely God cares more about your attendance record on Sunday than doing what you can to help vulnerable people and not put their literal lives at risk...
LOL nobody saying take no measures I just said that as a whole are world is better prepared and is handling this better than was ever possible in the history of anything I've ever seen. It's a global movement to try and limit the spread. So I would say that we are doing a good job to do all we can and not the opposite.

Again you're judging a group of people saying they're whitewashed tombs and you don't even know them. If that was a group of people of a certain ethnicity they would call that racism
 
muscleupcrohn

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LOL nobody saying take no measures I just said that as a whole are world is better prepared and is handling this better than was ever possible in the history of anything I've ever seen. It's a global movement to try and limit the spread. So I would say that we are doing a good job to do all we can and not the opposite. Again you're judging a group of people saying they're whitewashed tombs and you don't even know them. If that was a group of people of a certain ethnicity they would call that racism
I'm saying that if a Christian with access to the internet (see online services) goes to a Mega-Church with 500+ people seated shoulder-to-shoulder during this pandemic, then I have to SERIOUSLY question their belief system, as they are almost irrefutably NOT doing what they can to put others first, but putting blind adherence to the "letter of the law" above real life.

I'm not calling ALL Christians whitewashed tombs, I'm not even calling every Christian who goes to A church during this time that, but only the ones that don't follow social distancing and capacity regulations. If the churches limit the services to 10 or 50 people, or whatever the local laws are, and keep proper social distancing between people, then whatever, that's something.

I'm talking about the very specific group of "Christians" who go to megachurches at this time. I'm judging them on very specific actions, not based on them being Christians, so, no, it's not akin to racism. Do you read the s**t you type before you push the reply button man?
 
Godstrength

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I'm saying that if a Christian with access to the internet (see online services) goes to a Mega-Church with 500+ people seated shoulder-to-shoulder during this pandemic, then I have to SERIOUSLY question their belief system, as they are almost irrefutably NOT doing what they can to put others first, but putting blind adherence to the "letter of the law" above real life.

I'm not calling ALL Christians whitewashed tombs, I'm not even calling every Christian who goes to A church during this time that, but only the ones that don't follow social distancing and capacity regulations. If the churches limit the services to 10 or 50 people, or whatever the local laws are, and keep proper social distancing between people, then whatever, that's something.

I'm talking about the very specific group of "Christians" who go to megachurches at this time. I'm judging them on very specific actions, not based on them being Christians, so, no, it's not akin to racism. Do you read the s**t you type before you push the reply button man?
I agree with you about 95% of what you said. I'm going to omit the part I don't agree bc there's no point. But as somebody who does call himself a believer I'm trying to do my part as a human being and out of genuine concern. I can't say what the person who is going to church feels led to do whether or not they're being self-righteous or it is it actual act of Faith. Nobody can judge that. It's not for you or me or anybody else it's between the person and God if you believe in such a thing. And ultimately the final say at this moment is what the government deems admissible. You can have an opinion either way but it is what it is
 
justhere4comm

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I'm going to church and cough a few times then leave. j/k.
Does anyone NOT cough in church? It's like it's dry in there.
I'd be sitting there like (Oh Shi...) which would make me want to cough more.

Stay in. Order everything for delivery.
Make sure my wife has whatever the hell she wants or needs.
My manager met me at the local Target parking lot and gave me a bag of

- 70/30 Large Alcohol Wipes
- Purell Sanitizer
- A bunch of goodies
- SM Nitrile Glove

Just for my wife, because she knew she needed them.
Also, a team mate gave me an extra thermometer (drove it to me today)
Wife has to take her temperature twice per day (Hospital Rules)
// We don't have one. Haven't needed on for years.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I agree with you about 95% of what you said. I'm going to omit the part I don't agree bc there's no point. But as somebody who does call himself a believer I'm trying to do my part as a human being and out of genuine concern. I can't say what the person who is going to church feels led to do whether or not they're being self-righteous or it is it actual act of Faith. Nobody can judge that. It's not for you or me or anybody else it's between the person and God if you believe in such a thing. And ultimately the final say at this moment is what the government deems admissible. You can have an opinion either way but it is what it is
You do know that, even when Churches are deemed "essential," and allowed to stay open, they still have to follow state/local/etc. laws/orders regarding assembly size, right? AFAIK, the local authorities told the Tampa megachurch they would try to work with them to allow services to proceed that would comply with these size restrictions, and the Church refused. This Church willfully ignored laws and claimed to be doing it in Jesus' name. So the government didn't deem it admissible, and they are not giving carte blanche freedom for Churches to have as many people as they want as close to each other as they want.
 
HIT4ME

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So, our COVID-19 gameplans...
Umm...can't you tell? It is stay home and argue with you guys. Ok, maybe it isn't exactly a "plan"... It just turns out to be what happens.
 
Godstrength

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You do know that, even when Churches are deemed "essential," and allowed to stay open, they still have to follow state/local/etc. laws/orders regarding assembly size, right? AFAIK, the local authorities told the Tampa megachurch they would try to work with them to allow services to proceed that would comply with these size restrictions, and the Church refused. This Church willfully ignored laws and claimed to be doing it in Jesus' name. So the government didn't deem it admissible, and they are not giving carte blanche freedom for Churches to have as many people as they want as close to each other as they want.
Yes I totally understand that and if anyone chooses to break the law I don't co-sign that.

I'm not an unreasonable zealot
 
muscleupcrohn

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Umm...can't you tell? It is stay home and argue with you guys. Ok, maybe it isn't exactly a "plan"... It just turns out to be what happens.
We're all doing our part by choosing to stay here and argue instead of going out and having illegal parties. Cheers bros! What a time to be alive! To sit at home on the internet and actually be doing the responsible thing!
 
Jiigzz

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To me this whole argument is like saying if an aero engineer forgets to secure the engine to the wing correctly then as long as he is Christian then its Gods Will that everybody on that plane die and not his fault he forgot the screws lol.

At some point you have to take personal responsibility, and it was the engineers responsibility to ensure that plane was safe before takeoff. Not everything can be "everything happens for a reason" and "let's not take preventative measures because a higher power will keep me safe".

You cant use faith as an excuse to place lives in danger.

People aren't saying that this is a forever thing, it is just a measure to slow the spread and flatten the curve. Just wait a few weeks then go back to worship among your fellows. It's really not that difficult, and I'm sure theres passages in the Bible that talk about selfishness. I think that would apply to going to church during a pandemic lol
 
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HIT4ME

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To me this whole argument is like saying if an aero engineer forgets to secure the engine to the wing correctly then as long as he is Christian then its Gods Will that everybody on that plane die and not his fault he forgot the screws lol.

At some point you have to take personal responsibility, and it was the engineers responsibility to ensure that plane was safe before takeoff. Not everything can be "everything happens for a reason" and "let's not take preventative measures because a higher power will keep me safe".

You cant use faith as an excuse to place lives in danger.
Yeah. Here here. Not to mention the fact, it had to be that higher power that released this on us to begin with if that is how you wanna think. think wouldn't trust that farker.
 
muscleupcrohn

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To me this whole argument is like saying if an aero engineer forgets to secure the engine to the wing correctly then as long as he is Christian then its Gods Will that everybody on that plane die and not his fault he forgot the screws lol.

At some point you have to take personal responsibility, and it was the engineers responsibility to ensure that plane was safe before takeoff. Not everything can be "everything happens for a reason" and "let's not take preventative measures because a higher power will keep me safe".

You cant use faith as an excuse to place lives in danger.
Exactly this. Now, engineers make mistakes too, unfortunately. There's a difference between an "honest mistake" and negligence or malice, but I fully agree that if a mistake is made for the latter two reasons, then it's on the individual, and, if there is a God, He simply allowed it to happen, as He gave people free will. "Blaming" God for this persons' irresponsible actions is simply a failure to take responsibility for one's actions.

By this logic, if you run a Church, and fail to take the time to properly vet your staff/workers/etc. and fail to listen to what people say and the goings-on in your Church, and you end up with priests molesting children, then, no, that's not "God's will," that's scum-of-the-earth abusing positions of authority, and other people in positions of authority allowing it to happen, or not doing their part to stop it once they are made aware of it. Can anyone really claim that the Churches that cover up for child-molesters are just doing "God's will?" I know it's an extreme example, but often times logic and statements must be taken to their extremes to understand their true and full implications.
 
justhere4comm

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So, you think the Millionaire Slumlord will do a good job then?
 
HIT4ME

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So, you think the Millionaire Slumlord will do a good job then?
Nah, we would be much better off with a guy who's sole accomplishments in life were to organize a couple of fund raisers and have someone else write a book for him.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Nah, we would be much better off with a guy who's sole accomplishments in life were to organize a couple of fund raisers and have someone else write a book for him.
I feel like Cuban could have been, and maybe will one day be, what people thought/hoped Trump could be; a “non-politician” President with billionaire-businessman experience. At the least, he wouldn’t say so many “silly” things on Twitter.
 
HIT4ME

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I feel like Cuban could have been, and maybe will one day be, what people thought/hoped Trump could be; a “non-politician” President with billionaire-businessman experience. At the least, he wouldn’t say so many “silly” things on Twitter.
The thing is, I think you have to be a little tapped to want to deal with all those tapped politicians in DC. Trump is an outsider but he is enough of a loose cannon to get into the mix.

Cuban is too smart to want to out up with the drama if it all.
 
thebigt

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the 1ST AMENDMENT....I highly recommend reading it.
 
muscleupcrohn

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the 1ST AMENDMENT....I highly recommend reading it.
What are you saying is the 1st Amendment? Unrestricted gathering sizes simply because it’s free speech and religion? Because, by that logic, Fire/building codes are a violation of the first amendment, as they limit the size of religious gatherings in a sickie room/building.

It seems that some places allow churches to stay open, but say they have to have a limited number of people and proper social distancing practices.

Or is this not about churches at all? If so, my bad.
 
thebigt

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What are you saying is the 1st Amendment? Unrestricted gathering sizes simply because it’s free speech and religion? Because, by that logic, Fire/building codes are a violation of the first amendment, as they limit the size of religious gatherings in a sickie room/building.

It seems that some places allow churches to stay open, but say they have to have a limited number of people and proper social distancing practices.

Or is this not about churches at all? If so, my bad.
copy and paste for all to see, actually it covers more than religion. but I guess you already knew that?
 
muscleupcrohn

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copy and paste for all to see, actually it covers more than religion. but I guess you already knew that?
I did know that; I’m just curious as to the relevance ITT. Just randomly sharing? Cool I guess. Nothing in the first Amendment says that there is no ability to place some restrictions on the characteristics of gatherings, and this is coming from a self-proclaimed libertarian lol.
 
HIT4ME

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Ok, Covid Plan B is materializing. If I get really board....I will start reading the constitution. Funny thing is, we all use the constitution in our arguments and no one has ever posted an original source to back it up on here.

I guess you can't find it on Pubmed, or Dr. Mercola's site so it doesn't count.
 
DA_MOSS

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So, you think the Millionaire Slumlord will do a good job then?
ever come up with a response to your Fox News post earlier that absolutely had nothing to do with what you claimed it did? Or can we attribute it to TDS like I originally said
 
DA_MOSS

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Ok, Covid Plan B is materializing. If I get really board....I will start reading the constitution. Funny thing is, we all use the constitution in our arguments and no one has ever posted an original source to back it up on here.

I guess you can't find it on Pubmed, or Dr. Mercola's site so it doesn't count.
or Twitter....
 
GreenMachineX

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Umm...can't you tell? It is stay home and argue with you guys. Ok, maybe it isn't exactly a "plan"... It just turns out to be what happens.
True, and like someone else said, at least we all here are abiding by the stay at home order. I just don’t get why were arguing about it at all...it’s just kind of funny 😂

Edit: And ignore the bold...can’t turn it off. 🤷‍♂️
 
muscleupcrohn

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Ok, Covid Plan B is materializing. If I get really board....I will start reading the constitution. Funny thing is, we all use the constitution in our arguments and no one has ever posted an original source to back it up on here.

I guess you can't find it on Pubmed, or Dr. Mercola's site so it doesn't count.
Here’s my copy. And since we mentioned the Bible too. And The Art of War is great too (and that book also has the Tao Te Ching, which is also amazing).
57C23F70-6D5D-436E-9F8E-BE16F0F8A80B.jpg
 

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