What Would You Recommend When This Happens?

[cuthere100]

Looking for recommended supplements that help me drop fat ASAP.

Here's my situation:

I'm 42/M who previously couldn't seem to get any results. I got on TRT, and am doing 200mg/week (100 every 3.5) - at first nothing happened. Was about to throw in the towel when out of nowhere my strength came back, and my body began to change. Love-handles disappeared on their own, that part was weird, but welcome.

Started: 5'10 - 185 lbs at 19.5% BF
3 months in the gym: 196 lbs at 15% BF

Strength just went through the roof, and I got up to 203 lbs and starting to look good, but after being in lockdown for nearly 3 months overseas, I've lost some muscle mass and gained a few extra pounds back...

Now here's my problem... It seems as if my body requires insanely low and PERFECT diet to lose fat... As in my daily calories are ridiculously low for someone at 200 lbs. If I creep over 1,800 - 1,850 calories per day (Macros dialed in) - I start putting on fat even when I'm eating clean as a whistle. Now, I've done it for months and stuck with the eating schedule, but I'm getting so sick and tired of being hungry 24/7 due to such low calories. No snacking, no condiments, just chicken breast, Whey protein, a little beef, eggs, and low-fat cheese, oatmeal, and I'm damn near at my limit for the day minus my veggies.

Eat very clean, weigh my food, and track with an app. Not sure why my metabolism seems to be so darn low. I know lock-down leads to a rather lethargic lifestyle for the moment, but even at normal activity range I was struggling. As lock-down lifts, and the gym reopens, I'm going to hit it hard, but I'm looking for an edge in dropping fat, but reading all the threads here on what supplements work, vs. which don't do much is a bit frustrating trying to decipher between honest feedback, and monetized/sponsored ads. So looking for recommendations.

I was originally looking at Iron Legion Keto V, Invictus, and Virtus, but now I see Keto 11 is available... So that was one option, but now I'm seeing this Iconic Formulations, then Epistane... What would match best with my test base to just unleash HELL on this body-fat! I don't need to get down to single digits. Even at 13%, my frame seems to carry fat nicely and looks leaner than it is. So I'd like to drop to 12% and enjoy a few extra calories and mass rather than get ripped. So what do you think will help?

Side note: No recent blood-tests to confirm, but part of me suspects I may have higher than normal cortisol due to unusual sleeping habits. Perhaps underactive thyroid as well. But my blood-test will have to wait until lock-down lifts. But energy levels have been VERY low for a while now.

 

[The Solution]

Side note: No recent blood-tests to confirm, but part of me suspects I may have higher than normal cortisol due to unusual sleeping habits. Perhaps underactive thyroid as well. But my blood-test will have to wait until lock-down lifts. But energy levels have been VERY low for a while now.

This is the issue
Low calories for someone 200 pounds.
Very high stress = High Cortisol = Not good for trying to lose weight
There could be underlying issues in your bloodwork causing you to not see the progress you are trying to achieve.

While it is great to try and "Supplement" a good diet, if there are things underlying it doesn't matter how many pills or powders you can take. You need to fix the primary things at hand here

Proper sleep -- Lack of sleep and bad sleeping habits will kill energy and recovery.
Reducing Stress -- High Cortisol is a killer for weight loss.
Fixing Digestion (Are you having any bloating issues)? If so eliminate these food sources and variables to improve digestion and make sure your GI Tract is in check.
Bloodwork --> Seeing if there is any issues, Thyroid Issues? You are on TRT so I doubt your Testosterone is an issue. How is everything else? Fasted Insulin? A1C? Is your blood glucose in good standing? RBC? WBC? Thyroid Levels? Fasted Cortisol levels?

These are all important factors to monitor before trying to dig into supplements and dietary changes. Sometimes the big picture is things many overlook to establish a proper environment for success and optimizing your performance in and out of the gym. For someone your size on low calories, and feeling like crap there is going to be one of the red flags to look at. See if you can buy some private labs online and get some tests done and get to the bottom of it and see what the culprit may be. They could come back ok, but it is better to know then to roll the dice and play the guessing game.

Probably not the answer you want to hear, but you can't get from A to B if there are many health-related issues that need to be sorted out first. Especially when you are already feeling low on energy, and not having a good night's sleep. The leaner you get both of those will become worse. Especially if calories get lower and cardio gets higher. Think about that ... Both things that will cause Cortisol to go up even higher.

 

[cuthere100]

This is the issue
Low calories for someone 200 pounds.
Very high stress = High Cortisol = Not good for trying to lose weight
There could be underlying issues in your bloodwork causing you to not see the progress you are trying to achieve.

While it is great to try and "Supplement" a good diet, if there are things underlying it doesn't matter how many pills or powders you can take. You need to fix the primary things at hand here

Proper sleep -- Lack of sleep and bad sleeping habits will kill energy and recovery.
Reducing Stress -- High Cortisol is a killer for weight loss.
Fixing Digestion (Are you having any bloating issues)? If so eliminate these food sources and variables to improve digestion and make sure your GI Tract is in check.
Bloodwork --> Seeing if there is any issues, Thyroid Issues? You are on TRT so I doubt your Testosterone is an issue. How is everything else? Fasted Insulin? A1C? Is your blood glucose in good standing? RBC? WBC? Thyroid Levels? Fasted Cortisol levels?

These are all important factors to monitor before trying to dig into supplements and dietary changes. Sometimes the big picture is things many overlook to establish a proper environment for success and optimizing your performance in and out of the gym. For someone your size on low calories, and feeling like crap there is going to be one of the red flags to look at. See if you can buy some private labs online and get some tests done and get to the bottom of it and see what the culprit may be. They could come back ok, but it is better to know then to roll the dice and play the guessing game.

Probably not the answer you want to hear, but you can't get from A to B if there are many health-related issues that need to be sorted out first. Especially when you are already feeling low on energy, and not having a good night's sleep. The leaner you get both of those will become worse. Especially if calories get lower and cardio gets higher. Think about that ... Both things that will cause Cortisol to go up even higher.

--- I agree with everything you just said, and I wish I could have my bloods right now. But it's not possible at the moment. Best estimate at the moment is 60 days. I'm in an Asian country that loves to intercept these tests at the border. I already tried once last year, and once again in January from a different company. Both times they snatched it. Not sure why. So I just have to wait my turn unfortunately. Maybe I'm being impatient, but it sure sucks feeling constantly hungry just to keep the pounds from packing on.

I was hoping to test maybe something that would help control cortisol for the moment until I can get my test.

 

[cuthere100]

Proper sleep -- Lack of sleep and bad sleeping habits will kill energy and recovery.

- My sleep has been terrible over the last few years, but I am getting about an hour - 1.5 hours more per night now on average than I used to, so it's getting better as I go a long.

Reducing Stress -- High Cortisol is a killer for weight loss.

- Super low stress. After going through a contentious divorce that lasted roughly half the life-span of the universe a few years back, nothing gets under my skin anymore. I'm very calm and relaxed now.

Fixing Digestion (Are you having any bloating issues)? If so eliminate these food sources and variables to improve digestion and make sure your GI Tract is in check.

- Good question, honestly not sure how to answer this one. I don't think anything really bugs my stomach, but then I've never paid much attention either. I'll keep an eye on things this week. hadn't really considered this one as a potential issue, so thanks for that.

Bloodwork --> Seeing if there is any issues, Thyroid Issues? You are on TRT so I doubt your Testosterone is an issue. How is everything else? Fasted Insulin? A1C? Is your blood glucose in good standing? RBC? WBC? Thyroid Levels? Fasted Cortisol levels?

- My last test I did have high SHBG, over the limit, but that seems to always be the case with me. Slightly lower now since starting TRT. Everything else was in check minus some minor vitamin deficiencies that I now supplement for. Problem is my thyroid is a question mark as the lab only ran a single marker, which is kind of dumb from what I've been told. So this go-round I'll get both a full thyroid work up as well as cortisol levels checked.

 

[cheftepesh1]

You could always look at something like Invictus and VII-KT which can aid in reducing cortisol and reduction of body fat. The combination works well and is topical, which reduces issues with having to take pills. Plus right now they are on sale. If not you can always use code chef for 25% off.

 

[The Solution]

Fixing Digestion (Are you having any bloating issues)? If so eliminate these food sources and variables to improve digestion and make sure your GI Tract is in check.

- Good question, honestly not sure how to answer this one. I don't think anything really bugs my stomach, but then I've never paid much attention either. I'll keep an eye on things this week. hadn't really considered this one as a potential issue, so thanks for that.

Bloodwork --> Seeing if there is any issues, Thyroid Issues? You are on TRT so I doubt your Testosterone is an issue. How is everything else? Fasted Insulin? A1C? Is your blood glucose in good standing? RBC? WBC? Thyroid Levels? Fasted Cortisol levels?

- My last test I did have high SHBG, over the limit, but that seems to always be the case with me. Slightly lower now since starting TRT. Everything else was in check minus some minor vitamin deficiencies that I now supplement for. Problem is my thyroid is a question mark as the lab only ran a single marker, which is kind of dumb from what I've been told. So this go-round I'll get both a full thyroid work up as well as cortisol levels checked.

Journal your food intake.
Write down on a pen and paper what you eat

How do you feel before the meal
what did you consume (amounts, sources)
How do you feel 20-30 minutes after

if something is heavy go back and play the process of an elimination game. You would be surprised at how many things you may eat on a day to day or week to week basis which settle heavy but you just kind of let it go because its either labeled "Clean" or "Healthy". I've had tons of clients eliminate things like eggs, broccoli, cauliflower, coffee, banana's, peppers, onions, and various other sources because they ate it day in and day out. Once they wrote down what they ate and noticed after each time they ate that source and eliminated it their bloating and digestion improved.

I would take the time now to focus on the things that you can control (Sleep, Stress, Food sources, Digestion, GI, Mobility work) to optimize your day to day environment. When you can get bloods and get things checked (Thyroid, A1C, Fasted Insulin, WBC, RBC, Fasted Cortisol) and various other markers you will then know what you need to modify/change to improve your health. Once your health and all the other pieces to the puzzle are together then you can focus on the workout routine and nutrition

Fatloss is always about numbers and reps, or sets. It's about making sure everything is in check to put the big picture together. Not adding a pill, a powder, or rubbing some fat loss cream on your body. That has the very least amount of significance towards your goal.

 

[cuthere100]

You could always look at something like Invictus and VII-KT which can aid in reducing cortisol and reduction of body fat. The combination works well and is topical, which reduces issues with having to take pills. Plus right now they are on sale. If not you can always use code chef for 25% off.

I'd been considering this, but my one concern, is if I tried these, how quickly would my levels bounce back after I stop taking them? I ask because I want to make certain I get an accurate read on my cortisol levels when I get my bloods.

 

[cuthere100]

Journal your food intake.
Write down on a pen and paper what you eat

How do you feel before the meal
what did you consume (amounts, sources)
How do you feel 20-30 minutes after

if something is heavy go back and play the process of an elimination game. You would be surprised at how many things you may eat on a day to day or week to week basis which settle heavy but you just kind of let it go because its either labeled "Clean" or "Healthy". I've had tons of clients eliminate things like eggs, broccoli, cauliflower, coffee, banana's, peppers, onions, and various other sources because they ate it day in and day out. Once they wrote down what they ate and noticed after each time they ate that source and eliminated it their bloating and digestion improved.

I would take the time now to focus on the things that you can control (Sleep, Stress, Food sources, Digestion, GI, Mobility work) to optimize your day to day environment. When you can get bloods and get things checked (Thyroid, A1C, Fasted Insulin, WBC, RBC, Fasted Cortisol) and various other markers you will then know what you need to modify/change to improve your health. Once your health and all the other pieces to the puzzle are together then you can focus on the workout routine and nutrition

Fatloss is always about numbers and reps, or sets. It's about making sure everything is in check to put the big picture together. Not adding a pill, a powder, or rubbing some fat loss cream on your body. That has the very least amount of significance towards your goal.

Appreciate this advice. I'll do it. Hadn't even considered this approach before, so it's kind of nice to have another variable I can track and experiment with. Thanks again.

 

[rugger48]

I don’t think 1800-1850 is extremely low at all. That actually seems about right for a deficit.

 

[cuthere100]

I don’t think 1800-1850 is extremely low at all. That actually seems about right for a deficit.

For 200+ lbs? That plus lifting and cardio? I used to eat 2,400 daily and with gym/cardio I lost fat at a predictable rate... Now 1800 is the max I can eat, otherwise the weight starts piling up - so it appears something has impacted my metabolism. I don't know, maybe that just means I'm getting old. lol But the lack of any energy, and other issues makes me think perhaps there's something else going on.

 

[rugger48]

Your over 40. Your body changes. I use to be able to lose weight easily when I was younger too.

I’m at 2000 I’m dropping weight at 1-2 lbs a week. I’m 50. The days I do cardio I can eat slightly more. I’m guessing your less active now because of the pandemic too.

I’m 6’2” 250. I could gain a lb just driving by a pizza place.

 

[cuthere100]

Your over 40. Your body changes. I use to be able to lose weight easily when I was younger too.

I’m at 2000 I’m dropping weight at 1-2 lbs a week. I’m 50. The days I do cardio I can eat slightly more. I’m guessing your less active now because of the pandemic too.

I’m 6’2” 250. I could gain a lb just driving by a pizza place.

Exactly, and that's the frustrating part, not knowing if it's just aging, or if it's an imbalance in hormones somewhere. Normally I'd just head on over to a clinic. But now I have to wait a few months. It's getting to me. Gyms, pools, even condo gyms are all shut down here. So I'm limited to body-weight only at the moment. Even going out the front door requires a written pass here. Talk about getting restless... lol

 

[SweetLou321]

--- I agree with everything you just said, and I wish I could have my bloods right now. But it's not possible at the moment. Best estimate at the moment is 60 days. I'm in an Asian country that loves to intercept these tests at the border. I already tried once last year, and once again in January from a different company. Both times they snatched it. Not sure why. So I just have to wait my turn unfortunately. Maybe I'm being impatient, but it sure sucks feeling constantly hungry just to keep the pounds from packing on.

I was hoping to test maybe something that would help control cortisol for the moment until I can get my test.

There are a lot of regulations around mail bodily fluids across boarders.

 

[SweetLou321]

I wrote the below for the thread linked below, hope it helps:

https://anabolicminds.com/community/threads/metabolic-adaptation.316891/

"The simple answer is. You really can't. Id suggest you first start by reading this:

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/metabolic-adaptation/

It is worth noting that even maintenance calories are not a set number and more of range. Lets use an example to explain this. Lets say a persons current maintenance on average is about 2,500 cals per day. Their range actually be between 2,300-2,700. This is because of factors such a NEAT (none exercise thermogenesis), which is the major one at this point. If you eat more or less one day you may spontaneously move or less as a result to maintain a balanced caloric output to intake ratio. This is more genetic then anything so you can't change it really but you can accept it and not get frustrated. Some people have much more adaptive mechanisms such as spontaneous movement to overfeeding and they will have a much wider maintenance range as a result. In some metabolic ward research they have seen some peoples metabolic rate adjust to turn a 1,000 cal overfeeding into maintenance due to things such as increases in NEAT.

Now due to this variance in metabolic response to over and underfeeding we can see that some will need to really drop cals to lose weight and really increase cals to gain weight. If you are one of these people then weight loss can be challenging due to lack of cals but maintaining weight loss is easier and massing can be fun due to the food amounts required. A blessing and a curse.

Lets use our example again, say that person was maintaining their weight on 2,700 cals per day on average (the top end of their range) and they decide to cut 500 cals a day as is typically suggested to lose about 1lbs per week on average. Well their metabolism may adjust over a few weeks and now their maintenance is only 2,300 and they are only in a 100 cals per day deficit. Now weight loss is stalled, these people should not get frustrated, they just need to monitor their response to caloric intakes and accept what changes need to be made to achieve their goals.

Now that we understand the concept of the variability of one's metabolic rate, lets discuss another big factor of metabolic adaptation, that is how efficiently our mitochondria will derive ATP from food. As we diet, our body will become more efficient of generating ATP from food and less calories will be loosely generated into heat (thermogenesis). This is the way for the body to resist weight loss, evolutionarily this is advantageous but not for us in our first worlds. Many report feeling colder as they diet and hotter as they mass, this is why. So as we diet, our body will get better at converting cals into ATP and not heat, this also happens to how many cals we burn from exercise. A session that burns 500 cals at the beginning of a diet may only burn 300 cals at the end due to this adaptation (these numbers are examples). This is also thought to be the reason we seem to have a slower metabolism as we age. Our body tries to become more efficient to reduce oxidative stress thus less spontaneous movement and less cals burned through movement.

There is some limited research that:
1) Diet breaks or refeeds may help prevent decreases in spontaneous movement and metabolic efficiency. Examples that research supports are 2 weeks dieting and 2 weeks maintenance and at least 2-3 days of refeeding in a row (the research used a 11:3 ratio in days).

https://suppversity.blogspot.com/2017/09/cyclic-dieting-22-onoff-drops-123-vs.html

https://www.ergo-log.com/strict-weight-loss-diet-works-better-if-you-bend-the-rules-occasionally.html

2) Nicotine, Caffeine/Ephedrine, and EGCG may help with prevent metabolic efficiency, in that order in terms of potency:

https://suppversity.blogspot.com/2017/03/role-of-muscle-and-cns-in-diet-induced.html

3) 7-keto-DHEA has some short term research indicating it may help prevent metabolic efficiency as well:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17418559

4) Increasing leptin sensitivity if needed. You can read about leptin in the article I linked first. CRP can bind to leptin and prevent it from entering the brain, so if your CRP-HS levels are high then bringing them down can help.

5) Try to plan more walking and other super low grade activity as your spontaneous movement declines:

https://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/11/high-energy-flux-new-determinant-of.html

6) Make sure your are in a good state metabolically before starting to lose weight. This means either be massing or at the top end of your maintenance range before starting to ensure that both spontaneous movement is at its highest and metabolic efficiency is at its lowest, leptin is at its highest, active thyroid hormones are at their highest, ect. Relative energy deficiency (REDS) is a real thing for both men and women:

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the-risks-of-relative-energy-deficiency-in-sports/

Edit Note: There is one more aspect I did not address and it is worth stating. It is below:

7) Ensure your training load from all sources such as resistance exercise and aerobic is manageable. It one were to push past their systemic maximum recoverable volume of total exercise capacity then they can enter a state of overreaching and with time overtraining. It is not advised that one try to excessively exercise their way into a deficit. It is advised one stay relatively active as pointed out in point 5 as to allow them to eat more food while dieting which imparts some benefits on hormones that regulate muscle maintenance and satiety. The problem with doing to much exercise that we are unable to recover from is that this can lead to a decrease in total T3, free T3, and an increase in reverse T3 (rT3). T3 is our most active thyroid hormone and its isomer rT3 has not biological activity other then binding to the T3 receptors in place of T3 to slow down our metabolism. This is a way the body can try to prevent catabolism. This lower T3 activity and higher rT3 can lead to hypothyroidism at the tissue level. Also high rT3 and low T3 activity is associated with poor muscle function and strength output. T3 is also a key hormone for building muscle tissue and maintaining it when in an optimal range. T3s main metabolite is the active T2 that also drives our metabolism and can serve to convert back into T3. Use resistance training to help maintain and build muscle while dieting, not to burn calories. Use aerobic training to improve health and to allow yourself to eat some more food for the benefits already discussed, not to drive a bigger deficit. Aerobic training to drive a bigger deficit may have to be used if nearing the end of contest prep, which does not apply to most of us just trying to get leaner and look good. Overreaching and overtraining can lead to decreased leptin levels regarding of fat cell changes, constantly high cortisol levels or very low cortisol levels, and chronically elevated cytokine levels or Nf-kB expression and all of this inhibits the conversion of T4 to T3 and pushes it toward rT3. Korean ginseng may help with this thyroid hormone profile due to its adaptogenic effects. While not studied as directly as Korean ginseng, ashwagondha may also be of benefit to offset the cortisol drive suppression of T4 to T3 conversion:

https://suppversity.blogspot.com/2013/06/overtraining-undereating-self-inflicted.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12734791

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16175490

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16175498

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12215961

https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/497141

https://custommedicine.com.au/health-articles/reverse-t3-dominance/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28829155

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02973143

8) Do not excessively cut cals back as this can lead to similar thyroid profile as outlined in point 7. Training, if not overreaching or overtraining, on top of a low energy influx via diet can cause the body to also decrease T3 activity and increase rT3 to put the brakes on catabolism.

https://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/10/thyroid-issues-low-energy-intake.html

https://suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/02/biggest-winners-lose-their-weight.html"

 

[HIT4ME]

Good stuff above. Here is a test, can you tell us everything you ate for the last 3 days? Lay it out in as much detail as possible. Thanks.

 

[SweetLou321]

Good stuff above. Here is a test, can you tell us everything you ate for the last 3 days? Lay it out in as much detail as possible. Thanks.

This guys ^ stuff is always worth reading from the thread I linked

 

[HIT4ME]

This guys ^ stuff is always worth reading from the thread I linked

Thanks for the compliment - I am normally one to write these long-winded posts...but between The Solution, you and rugger ...I have very little to add.

 

[rugger48]

Thanks for the compliment - I am normally one to write these long-winded posts...but between The Solution, you and rugger ...I have very little to add.

I know you were talking to the op, but you got it exact. Ive gotten back on track , if you asked me I could tell you everything I have eaten since April 21.

I just finished my calories today 10 minutes ago with one PES shake. 120 calories


Log your calories if your getting lost in your nutrition.

 

[rugger48]

Thanks for the compliment - I am normally one to write these long-winded posts...but between The Solution, you and rugger ...I have very little to add.

I know you were talking to the op, but you got it exact. Ive gotten back on track , if you asked me I could tell you everything I have eaten since April 21.

I just finished my calories today 10 minutes ago with one PES shake. 120 calories


Log your calories if your getting lost in your nutrition.

 

[rugger48]

Thanks for the compliment - I am normally one to write these long-winded posts...but between The Solution, you and rugger ...I have very little to add.

I know you were talking to the op, but you got it exact. Ive gotten back on track , if you asked me I could tell you everything I have eaten since April 21.

I just finished my calories today 10 minutes ago with one PES shake. 120 calories


Log your calories if your getting lost in your nutrition.

 

[Iwilleattuna]

Sounds hormonal . If you were eating 2,400 with less activity and losing more weight than you are now , could be cortisol , estrogen and or thyroid . Like Bob said, high cortisol can definitely do this. If you were still eating close to 2,400 and weren’t losing weight , I’d just recommend reducing cals more but since you already have I wouldn’t go lower yet. Try keeping your cals where they are but switch up sources and change macronutrients around. Also deal with your stress. You could try invictus and other cortisol aids too . I’d throw in some estrogen support, as well . Maybe even arimistane which can also help with cortisol

Another thing is just upping training intensity and volume which really helps. Add sets, time under tension, more reps, supersets, heavy sets, etc. And changing the type of cardio cardio around.

 

[HIT4ME]

I know you were talking to the op, but you got it exact. Ive gotten back on track , if you asked me I could tell you everything I have eaten since April 21.

I just finished my calories today 10 minutes ago with one PES shake. 120 calories


Log your calories if your getting lost in your nutrition.

Nice job! No one wants to log, but if you aren't losing weight and you don't have a precise log, how are you really going to figure out the problem? Logging seems like a minor thing, but a log and a scale are major things.