what where your stats before you started your first cycle?

[lucifer92]

Was was your weight and bodyfat?

Some people say that you should reach your natural limit before starting gear, but I don't feel that way, so I thought to ask you good fellas

 

[Chados]

I have no idea but I was barely having any fat and I had good muscular base.. I mean natural limit? How can you possibly know when that is? More food different training can always be improved.

It would be a great scenario to know my muscles won't grow anymore and then jump on gear but I don't think anyone does that.. They might say so but thats just comparing yourself to other people and then we're talking genetics too.. Not everyone wants to be 300 pounds lean muscle either, I don't.

I just think it's good to have some experience at the gym before touching gear

 

[Nac]

Lol, natural limit.

Most bros Ive seen prescribing this (do as I say, not as I do bullsh1t) are meatheads on "hardcore" forums. Theyre full of it. I mean, its a great ideal in principle, but aint nobody got time for dat.

The way I see it, its just a mantra with the intention of preventing weight training no0bz from jumping on gear too early. But "natural limit", thats just as extreme.

 

[D3x]

Natural limit is dynamic.. there's no way to know where yours is.. or if you just need to ramp up intensity further than you think..

Good article involving ffmi and sumos..

https://www.chaosandpain.com/tips/whatever-you-think-your-genetic-limit-is-youve-been-lied-to/

 

[Chados]

Lol, natural limit.

Most bros Ive seen prescribing this (do as I say, not as I do bullsh1t) are meatheads on "hardcore" forums. Theyre full of it. I mean, its a great ideal in principle, but aint nobody got time for dat.

The way I see it, its just a mantra with the intention of preventing weight training no0bz from jumping on gear too early. But "natural limit", thats just as extreme.

And people arguing so hard about it doesn't want other people to be bigger than they are or they're too scared to take something themselves. I don't think anyone actually knows what natural limit means.. I sure don't.. What is the limit? 150 pounds ripped? 300 pounds and no abs but big muscles?

 

[Nac]

And people arguing so hard about it doesn't want other people to be bigger than they are or they're too scared to take something themselves. I don't think anyone actually knows what natural limit means.. I sure don't.. What is the limit? 150 pounds ripped? 300 pounds and no abs but big muscles?

Yip, sure, and what practical way or method do us Joe Bloggs have of measuring our own personal "natural limit"? Ive seen various calculators online (Casey Butt has arguably the best) but at the end of the day these methods are crude and non-specific to you (and me).

Common sense would suggest that you train for some time, experiment with different programs, trial diet manipulation, and in doing so find out if this discipline is something you enjoy and see yourself sticking with going forward...then consider PEDs.

We can argue 2 years, 3 years, 5 years training and trialling as a natty, but theres no black and white line that you suddenly cross and become "ready". Its ultimately a personal choice. The guy who trains 10yrs natty before touching gear is not "better" or more ready than someone who jumps on after 3, theres a million different reasons why they did things the way they did. A universal standard is arbitrary bollox.

 

[Chados]

Yip, sure, and what practical way or method do us Joe Bloggs have of measuring our own personal "natural limit"? Ive seen various calculators online (Casey Butt has arguably the best) but at the end of the day these methods are crude and non-specific to you (and me).

Common sense would suggest that you train for some time, experiment with different programs, trial diet manipulation, and in doing so find out if this discipline is something you enjoy and see yourself sticking with going forward...then consider PEDs.

We can argue 2 years, 3 years, 5 years training and trialling as a natty, but theres no black and white line that you suddenly cross and become "ready". Its ultimately a personal choice. The guy who trains 10yrs natty before touching gear is not "better" or more ready than someone who jumps on after 3, theres a million different reasons why they did things the way they did. A universal standard is arbitrary bollox.

I also love the argument that everyone always use (I took it when I had so and so much muscle) I was twice your size, You don't need to take it cause you don't have muscles.. If anyone should take steroids it should be the guy with no muscles not the guy who's been gearing for ten years and when even gear won't make you grow.

Or my favorite.. It's not safe, well if you take it for ten years you are probably more likely to die then a guy who runs 1gr of tren the first cycle.

Get some muscles and diet in check so you can get the best out of the cycle simples as that

 

[mikeymike85]

I think its more-so a psychological decision, not so much physical.

 

[Chados]

I think its more-so a psychological decision, not so much physical.

Maybe.. It's stupid to take steroids at the cost of your health and when you understand that you're ready for it. I realized I was stupid years ago

 

[RickyBlobby]

I was 6' 195 probably 20% bf. At the end of my second cycle I was 6' 195 12%BF. Looked 1,000,000 x better

 

[swimfan65]

First cycle 20 years ago. 6'6 225...now 6'6 360. Bench went from 250 to near 600.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Damn, lol. I need to bulk

 

[franks009]

Lol this man gained the same amount of weight close to what some people weigh on here lol

 

[Cscott622]

First cycle i was 6'4 189lb 19% bf. Now im 6'1 187lb 11% bf

 

[swimfan65]

Lol this man gained the same amount of weight close to what some people weigh on here lol

Over 20 years brother. Spent a lot of time under the bar and in the kitchen

 

[Nac]

Over 20 years brother. Spent a lot of time under the bar and in the kitchen

How much beef/chicken you eat over a week

 

[swimfan65]

How much beef/chicken you eat over a week

In a week? Probably close to 20 pounds

 

[ericos_bob]

First cycle i was 6'4 189lb 19% bf. Now im 6'1 187lb 11% bf

Nice to know I'm not the only one who adds testicular circumference to my height measurement.

 

[lucifer92]

I was 6' 195 probably 20% bf. At the end of my second cycle I was 6' 195 12%BF. Looked 1,000,000 x better

Totally noob question since i never cycled, but how does that work? Sounds like you lost fat and gained muscle at the same time?

 

[lucifer92]

I too think that the whole max natty potential is bull****. I believe a lot of people have a sense of superiority, "if i juiced at a younger age id be double the size" mentallity

 

[Whisky]

Totally noob question since i never cycled, but how does that work? Sounds like you lost fat and gained muscle at the same time?

That’s what anabolics enable you to do bro.....

 

[Whisky]

Totally noob question since i never cycled, but how does that work? Sounds like you lost fat and gained muscle at the same time?

That’s what anabolics enable you to do bro.....

 

[Chados]

That’s what anabolics enable you to do bro.....

Yup.. Lose fat while gaining muscles. Metabolism goes up = lose weight, on steroids you'll still add muscles even during a deficit. More muscles = more weight

Muscles + increased metabolism = a bigger you with less fat.

Obviously completely under eating or overeating will affect the results

 

[Karlrobert]

Perhaps individual current genetic potential would be a better way to know. For instance when you hit the age where your test levels begin to naturally decline after their peak. Blood testing could quantify that. Of course experience with training, nutrition, and physical condition are all subjective but imo a necessary factor for responsible use.

 

[D3x]

Perhaps individual current genetic potential would be a better way to know. For instance when you hit the age where your test levels begin to naturally decline after their peak. Blood testing could quantify that. Of course experience with training, nutrition, and physical condition are all subjective but imo a necessary factor for responsible use.

I still don't feel that would be an accurate measurement of a possible limit.. it could be a measure of difficulty to reach beyond but your body will adapt to external stimuli regardless of peak test or no.. it could even slowly upregulate test to some degree if the right stimuli was introduced to the subject..

 

[Karlrobert]

I still don't feel that would be an accurate measurement of a possible limit.. it could be a measure of difficulty to reach beyond but your body will adapt to external stimuli regardless of peak test or no.. it could even slowly upregulate test to some degree if the right stimuli was introduced to the subject..

I agree. I don't think genetic limit would be measurable being as there's so many variables thus not a good standard for when to begin using AAS. I just meant to suggest that when lifetime natural peak test levels start to decline would be a consideration for beginning anabolic use. Alot of other factors go into that decision as well but at least that is something that can be tested and confirmed reasonably

 

[lucifer92]

Yup.. Lose fat while gaining muscles. Metabolism goes up = lose weight, on steroids you'll still add muscles even during a deficit. More muscles = more weight

Muscles + increased metabolism = a bigger you with less fat.

Obviously completely under eating or overeating will affect the results

I thought that even with steroids you either gain or you loss depending on if you are in a deficit or a surplus

 

[D3x]

I thought that even with steroids you either gain or you loss depending on if you are in a deficit or a surplus

No.. that's a grossly over simplified understanding.. it's not impossible to burn the candle at both ends, but it's not easy to do.. hence why people tend to say pick a goal and do that instead of struggling doing back and forth.. but it is possible to recomp like that.. even naturally if your diet and training are on very on point.. I suppose the ease of this would vary wildly based on genetics and is very subjective for effectiveness.. for some it very well may not be possible to do i.e. people who naturally gain fat very easily.. kinda depends on how your metabolism works.. "metabolic typing" and "Biochemical Individuality" are good starting points to learn how to do it..

Also good articles on it..

https://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/03/metabolic-typing-gets-in-mix-finally.html?m=1&zx=b800ab19a3b7b680

https://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/03/metabolic-typing-parte-dvah-brief.html?m=0

And I found an excerpt that I've followed and it's worked very well for me with a little wiggle room even.. I think I might right up a more In depth post about it one of these days..

"Back to rotating your macros and calories. *Start by doubling your bodyweight in lbs, and making that*your baseline for grams of protein, daily. *As you grow, up your protein. *Thereafter, you're going to*have high, medium, and low carb days, which will be inversely proportional to your fat intake (unless you choose a paleo day instead of a keto day). *Thus,*protein remains static, while you'll have high carb/low fat, medium carb/medium fat, and low carb/low*fat or low carb/high fat days. *Into the mix, you'll throw two cheat windows- and don't throw them in on your low/low days. *The low/low days are important, in my mind, as they serve to give a sort of protein fasting day- they're*for all intents and purposes a paleo day. *That's the day where you're kicking up fat metabolism,*forcing your body to change your output of leptin on a daily basis, and prevent your body from settling*into homeostasis of any kind. *Since leptin is the hormone responsible for controlling your appetite and*plays a role in fat deposition and utilization, ****ing with it by doing the metabolic equivalent of*poking it in the eye with a sharp stick is key. *Should you find that you're staying lean with no problem, you're incredibly hungry, or you simply want a keto day, take one.*" - https://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/08/you-can-gain-weight-without-looking_19.html?m=1

 

[Chados]

I thought that even with steroids you either gain or you loss depending on if you are in a deficit or a surplus

Well theoretically if you don't eat at all you might not gain anything but that's not very likely to do on either steroids or natural.. Not gaining anything on steroids is quite impossible since you're basically a superhuman

 

[lucifer92]

Well theoretically if you don't eat at all you might not gain anything but that's not very likely to do on either steroids or natural.. Not gaining anything on steroids is quite impossible since you're basically a superhuman

Even with just test cycles?

 

[swimfan65]

Superhuman is a bit of a stretch. I know guys on gear that due to genetics will never be more than average.

 

[D3x]

Idk why I try to make informative posts..

 

[swimfan65]

Idk why I try to make informative posts..

Your post was very informative. However, I've been doing this more than 20 years and it is really really not that complicated.

 

[DemntedCowboy]

Before my first cycle. 212# and walking with a cane

 

[swimfan65]

If this new area of information actually improved the sport..drugs, nutrition, exercise, worked...guys would look better than they did in the 70s and 80s...they do not. Yes they are bigger, but at what cost? Old school drugs, training, and food, created better physices.

 

[D3x]

If this new area of information actually improved the sport..drugs, nutrition, exercise, worked...guys would look better than they did in the 70s and 80s...they do not. Yes they are bigger, but at what cost? Old school drugs, training, and food, created better physices.

Not trying to discount your experience and knowledge of applied practices.. I was just sharing what I learned that has helped me to recomp in a way that burned the candle at both ends without gear.. granted I'm not trying to be a behemoth like you quite yet tho and it probably isn't the quickest most effective way to gain size or to lose fat..

 

[franks009]

Over 20 years brother. Spent a lot of time under the bar and in the kitchen

Hear you on that. Sh!t ain't easy, or else everyone would be doing it

 

[Nac]

Idk why I try to make informative posts..

Hah, dont be disheartened. But, I learnt long ago that most people dont like long posts. Most guys who could really do with reading what you wrote, wont.

There are others though who do read it, mainly lurkers, who wont reply to it.

Most guys asking questions here are looking for quick low effort answers. Nothing wrong with that, but dont let a lack of response to your longer detailed posts be an indication of their helpfulness.

 

[Country]

I was 20yrs old and trained at a gold's and was lucky enough to meet an old pro named Don Long he taught me a lot. I reached my natural potential at 24 6'1 and decided to tske my 1st cycle of 500mgs of test e for 10 weeks with guidance from him i ran 3 cycles by 29 i was 260 which was way too much for me to hold it was a decision to try and be a mass bodybuilder but aftet talking to a few top pros the amounts of gear not including the other stuff i realized it wasn't for me health reasons mainly and the costs of gear food travel without a sponcer is just too much. So i went back to the drawing board with matt duvall and king kamali and they helped me a ton from posing diet and all.

 

[Chados]

Even with just test cycles?

Yes

 

[Chados]

Superhuman is a bit of a stretch. I know guys on gear that due to genetics will never be more than average.

If you take steroids you're a superhuman of your former you. Thing with most genetics is that they actually do steroids but just don't say it. You'd be surprised to see what I've seen with both men and women. It's not always obvious, and they all lie

 

[ericos_bob]

Superhuman is pretty accurate I'd say. It's always amazing how much size//strength one can gain on a first cycle.

 

[christ83189]

First cycle i was 6'4 189lb 19% bf. Now im 6'1 187lb 11% bf

Gear make you shorter? Lol

 

[D3x]

Gear make you shorter? Lol

No.. just made his neck disappear..

 

[christ83189]

No.. just made his neck disappear..

Lol

 

[D3x]

Lol

 

[JoePaul39]

View attachment 168411

The BEAST Brock Lesnar!

 

[lucifer92]

Idk why I try to make informative posts..

Since english isnt my first language sometimes i have problems with long posts, with translating and all that. I repped you for that always sunny part though

 

[lucifer92]

Superhuman is pretty accurate I'd say. It's always amazing how much size//strength one can gain on a first cycle.

Considering that i feel like an empty shell of my former self this is really REALLY tempting

 

[ericos_bob]

Haha, it is very tempting. Many of the guys I've trained with over the years have gone down that path now in their 30's. All of them trained balls to the wall naturally for years and blew up huge when they started to juice while I remain in the slow lane. Until I suffer from low T I'm steering clear of gear.