What Specifically Causes Bodybuilders to Get Heart Attacks, When the Rest Do Not?

M

MedRat

Member
Awards
0
High blood pressure, high total cholesterol, increased red blood cell count. This causes blood to become thick. Damage to the right atrium, the chamber that non oxygenated blood return s to. Liver disease, Kidney disease, possible cancers.

These guys are on enormous amounts of gear. Then you have all that protien consumption. This is very hard on the kidneys. You also have the effect that the heart has to pump harder to move blood around the body because of all that muscle. The left ventricle, where the heart pumps oxygenated blood, starts to stretch. This leads to left sided congestive heart failure. That thick blood I meantioned? It can cause a stroke. Thick blood can also lead to atrial fibrillation and this can cause a clot to form. An older bodybuilder just passed away sometime over the last couple of months. He complained of foot and leg pain to his roommate before she left for a couple days. She returned and he was dead. What do I think happened? Blood clot in the lower leg travelled up to the lungs and killed him. This is called a pulmonary embolism. Had he gone to the doctor or E.R. right away he might be alive today.
 
A

Ase_james

Member
Awards
0
Super high doses of gear over long periods of time, extremely high calorie intake, insulin pump, hgh all make your heart grow larger than it should.im pretty sure runners and skiers don't run 6 iu of hgh or 12 mgs of gear, at any point of their careers.

They do get larger hearts do to the exercise and eating, but not even close to the same
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
High blood pressure, high total cholesterol, increased red blood cell count. This causes blood to become thick. Damage to the right atrium, the chamber that non oxygenated blood return s to. Liver disease, Kidney disease, possible cancers.

These guys are on enormous amounts of gear. Then you have all that protien consumption. This is very hard on the kidneys. You also have the effect that the heart has to pump harder to move blood around the body because of all that muscle. The left ventricle, where the heart pumps oxygenated blood, starts to stretch. This leads to left sided congestive heart failure. That thick blood I meantioned? It can cause a stroke. Thick blood can also lead to atrial fibrillation and this can cause a clot to form. An older bodybuilder just passed away sometime over the last couple of months. He complained of foot and leg pain to his roommate before she left for a couple days. She returned and he was dead. What do I think happened? Blood clot in the lower leg travelled up to the lungs and killed him. This is called a pulmonary embolism. Had he gone to the doctor or E.R. right away he might be alive today.
I am not sure if you have medical training and am not trying to argue (I am often come across as argumentative I think...working on it.).

My understanding was that atrial fibrilation causes blood clots, not that blood clots cause atrial fib? Does it work both ways?

Also, skeletal muscle I believe can make it easier on the heart to pump. I say this because of you ever see someone with paralysis, you notice they get edema because the heart has a hard time pumping due to the lack of pressure pushing blood back to the heart.

Your list has a lot of considerations though

Something I would add to this though that I think is often over looked is BMI. We often look at BMI and say, "That doesn't matter. Bodybuilders have high BMIs and they aren't fat and being fat is what matters."

What people overlook is that BMI is based on large population statistical analysis. It basically says that people of certain heights and builds over a certain weight, based on statistical analysis, have increased incidence of disease and death.

For instance, I am 5'8'' and the BMI chart shows me that I should weigh 140-160 pounds. Over 160 and I am at increased risk of disease. This is regardless of whether it is muscle or fat, statistically. Sure, in reality maybe muscle will skew that a little, but not much.

And to put that in perspective, John Grimmek was 5'8" and 180# @ 10% bodyfat and was the best bodybuilder in the world at the time. In other words, someome with my build will have a really hard time actually becoming much more than 160# and being lean unless they use drugs.

And, to medrat's point, carrying all that weight around is a strain on your heart regardless. In order to do it your heart will adapt and may become damaged in the process...since it is a constant stress.

Finally, keep in mind a lot of competitive bodybuilders don't just use traditional steroids. They use GH, insulin, diuretics, etc. The pathways that lead to death are numerous and often intermingled. Liver damage, dehydration, potential organ growth from GH (debateable), kidney damage, overdose, thickened blood, damaged blood vessels, endocrine and immune impairment...you name it. It is a high stakes game.
 
M

MedRat

Member
Awards
0
I am not sure if you have medical training and am not trying to argue (I am often come across as argumentative I think...working on it.).

My understanding was that atrial fibrilation causes blood clots, not that blood clots cause atrial fib? Does it work both ways?

Also, skeletal muscle I believe can make it easier on the heart to pump. I say this because of you ever see someone with paralysis, you notice they get edema because the heart has a hard time pumping due to the lack of pressure pushing blood back to the heart.

Your list has a lot of considerations though

Something I would add to this though that I think is often over looked is BMI. We often look at BMI and say, "That doesn't matter. Bodybuilders have high BMIs and they aren't fat and being fat is what matters."

What people overlook is that BMI is based on large population statistical analysis. It basically says that people of certain heights and builds over a certain weight, based on statistical analysis, have increased incidence of disease and death.

For instance, I am 5'8'' and the BMI chart shows me that I should weigh 140-160 pounds. Over 160 and I am at increased risk of disease. This is regardless of whether it is muscle or fat, statistically. Sure, in reality maybe muscle will skew that a little, but not much.

And to put that in perspective, John Grimmek was 5'8" and 180# @ 10% bodyfat and was the best bodybuilder in the world at the time. In other words, someome with my build will have a really hard time actually becoming much more than 160# and being lean unless they use drugs.

And, to medrat's point, carrying all that weight around is a strain on your heart regardless. In order to do it your heart will adapt and may become damaged in the process...since it is a constant stress.

Finally, keep in mind a lot of competitive bodybuilders don't just use traditional steroids. They use GH, insulin, diuretics, etc. The pathways that lead to death are numerous and often intermingled. Liver damage, dehydration, potential organ growth from GH (debateable), kidney damage, overdose, thickened blood, damaged blood vessels, endocrine and immune impairment...you name it. It is a high stakes game.
I don't have adhd but, my mind moves faster than I type. Sometimes I think I wrote something and didnt. Other times I didnt explain something well enough to people without medical training. 84% of strokes are caused by a clot. The other 16 percent are from a hemorrhage. A fib is a huge risk factor for clots. Excuse me if I didnt make this clear enough. Ill elaborate and clarity anything that anyone requests whenever I can.
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
I don't have adhd but, my mind moves faster than I type. Sometimes I think I wrote something and didnt. Other times I didnt explain something well enough to people without medical training. 84% of strokes are caused by a clot. The other 16 percent are from a hemorrhage. A fib is a huge risk factor for clots. Excuse me if I didnt make this clear enough. Ill elaborate and clarity anything that anyone requests whenever I can.
Haha - we all do that. No need to apologize. I just wanted to be sure my knowledge was correct...and I think I get where you were coming from now. I thought afib caused clots and you were saying clots caused afib. I see you are saying that the drugs, weight, etc. can cause afib and that causes the clots. I just misunderstood and was clarifying. Thanks for taking the time to clear it up.
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • RockStar
AFib doesn’t necessarily just cause blood clots, AFib causes cardiac arrest in and of itself as well.

In fact AFib, Vfib, ATac, and Vtac, are all super duper deadly forms of “heart attack” which can be SPONTANEOUSLY caused by AAS in some instances.

In lay terms, your heart just ****ed up the beat and can’t get it back into time. Which can happen when the muscle cells are stimulated beyond their tolerance. Electrically.
 
V

ValiantThor08

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
Wonder how many are also ticking time bombs? It may appear that thousands of other gear users are safe because they have not dropped dead yet, but how many are checking the size increase of their internal organs alone?
 
celc5

celc5

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
possible cancers.
Cancer caused by aggressive protein intake? Bodybuilding activity like heavy lifting/ muscle breakdown? Or was this just in reference to steroids?

Medrat, you've made great posts in this thread! Thank u for ur time!
 
V

ValiantThor08

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
Cancer caused by aggressive protein intake? Bodybuilding activity like heavy lifting/ muscle breakdown? Or was this just in reference to steroids?

Medrat, you've made great posts in this thread! Thank u for ur time!
Too much/too often mTOR may cause accelerated cancer/tumor growth.
 
M

MedRat

Member
Awards
0
Too much/too often mTOR may cause accelerated cancer/tumor growth.
This is an aspect of the Mammilian Target of Rapamycin that I wasnt aware of. Is this C1 C2, or both? Accelerating tumor growth is one reason I dont advise anyone to take oral NAD+ supplements.
 
M

MedRat

Member
Awards
0
Cancer caused by aggressive protein intake? Bodybuilding activity like heavy lifting/ muscle breakdown? Or was this just in reference to steroids?

Medrat, you've made great posts in this thread! Thank u for ur time!
I can possibly see renal damage resulting from large doses of protien. Moderate and above weight training releases an anti inflammatory so you get a positive effect. Lifting heavy for a long time can result in some elevated kidney values.
 
M

MedRat

Member
Awards
0
Wonder how many are also ticking time bombs? It may appear that thousands of other gear users are safe because they have not dropped dead yet, but how many are checking the size increase of their internal organs alone?
Probably many arent looking for organ enlargement. Its going to be different for everyone because theres so many variables.
 
M

MedRat

Member
Awards
0
AFib doesn’t necessarily just cause blood clots, AFib causes cardiac arrest in and of itself as well.

In fact AFib, Vfib, ATac, and Vtac, are all super duper deadly forms of “heart attack” which can be SPONTANEOUSLY caused by AAS in some instances.

In lay terms, your heart just ****ed up the beat and can’t get it back into time. Which can happen when the muscle cells are stimulated beyond their tolerance. Electrically.
You are exactly right. We can correct some abnormal rythems through cardioversion. Pulseless V-Tach and V-Fib are the only rythems we can defibrillate. Anything outside of a normal sinus rythem carries the chance for sudden death. When theres no electrical activity, we cant bring you back. As an aside, epinephrine is never stabbed into the heart. Now you have more heart damage, just what anyone needs.

Touching on sudden death for a minute, 60+hour work weeks are potentially fatal. I dont have links in front of me but, odds of sudden death increase for each hour worked over 60.
 
M

MedRat

Member
Awards
0
Cancer caused by aggressive protein intake? Bodybuilding activity like heavy lifting/ muscle breakdown? Or was this just in reference to steroids?

Medrat, you've made great posts in this thread! Thank u for ur time!
Most cancers would probably be caused by whatever else is in with the gear. Unless you get something from a lab like Watson, you dont know whats in there. You could have a sample analyzed but, realistically, how many AAS users are doing this?
 
BennyMagoo79

BennyMagoo79

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
AFib doesn’t necessarily just cause blood clots, AFib causes cardiac arrest in and of itself as well.

In fact AFib, Vfib, ATac, and Vtac, are all super duper deadly forms of “heart attack” which can be SPONTANEOUSLY caused by AAS in some instances.

In lay terms, your heart just ****ed up the beat and can’t get it back into time. Which can happen when the muscle cells are stimulated beyond their tolerance. Electrically.
I hey AGib all the time. Got it checked out, cardiologist told me not to worry. Left atrial fibrillation.
 
BennyMagoo79

BennyMagoo79

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
You are exactly right. We can correct some abnormal rythems through cardioversion. Pulseless V-Tach and V-Fib are the only rythems we can defibrillate. Anything outside of a normal sinus rythem carries the chance for sudden death. When theres no electrical activity, we cant bring you back. As an aside, epinephrine is never stabbed into the heart. Now you have more heart damage, just what anyone needs.

Touching on sudden death for a minute, 60+hour work weeks are potentially fatal. I dont have links in front of me but, odds of sudden death increase for each hour worked over 60.
A lot of people that suddenly stop working after years of working a lot seem to die.
 
celc5

celc5

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Most cancers would probably be caused by whatever else is in with the gear. Unless you get something from a lab like Watson, you dont know whats in there. You could have a sample analyzed but, realistically, how many AAS users are doing this?
I asked an oncologist the same question and his answers were congruent with yours.

He said he's never seen anything in the literature that suggests natural bodybuilding, power lifting, or high protein diet correlate with increased risk for cancer.

He said he has suspicions about AAS and GH relating to cancer. But there's not enough specific literature to feel strong about his assumptions.
 
M

MedRat

Member
Awards
0
I asked an oncologist the same question and his answers were congruent with yours.

He said he's never seen anything in the literature that suggests natural bodybuilding, power lifting, or high protein diet correlate with increased risk for cancer.

He said he has suspicions about AAS and GH relating to cancer. But there's not enough specific literature to feel strong about his assumptions.
AAS usage and long term side effects are still a grey area in medicine. General practitioners do something that really irriates me. They go by this scale of where your testosterone should be in range. Many are so ignorant or lazy that they dont even bother to check any other values. If your free T is say 400 or 500, but you have effects of low T, theyll probably brush you off.

Testosterone is one of those things everyone wants to shuttle off to a urologist. Cant get a referral without requesting one. People often go to an endocrinologist. Ive never met an endocrinologist to handle T therapy.

Back to the range. Scales vary but most run basically 300-1150 total T. Now look at this. Many men Ive had discussions with say they dont feel right below 700. Then even the urologist isnt checking e2 levels. They max range around 70. Again, most men tell me they feel good around 20-30. The DEA has done a wonderful job of terrorizing doctors around the nation.

A part of my job is patient education. Medicine is changing. As I stay on top of new knowledge, we are told wellness is mainly the patients job. Medication compliance, asking for what you need, accurate and timely reporting of symptoms and more. Its all put back on the public.

To assist people with learning, more community health nurses are being employed.R.N.s who go out and educate all age groups to a multitude of factors related to diseases and disorders. They primarily focus on modifiable factors like drinking, smoking, illicit street drugs, and STIs.
 
M

MedRat

Member
Awards
0
A lot of people that suddenly stop working after years of working a lot seem to die.
Its too much strain on the body. Look at long term effects of high stress on humans. One area to focus on is cortisol. Produced by the adrenal glands, its pumped into your system. In the long run, the adrenal glands may not shut off and high cortisol can be released into you the rest of your life. Which wont be very long if that happens.
 
M

MedRat

Member
Awards
0
I hey AGib all the time. Got it checked out, cardiologist told me not to worry. Left atrial fibrillation.
How often did the cardiologist tell you to return for visits? Did they prescribe any blood thinners? I have my reasons for not trusting cardiologists.
 
Juggernaut AM

Juggernaut AM

Board Sponsor
Awards
1
  • First Up Vote
I hey AGib all the time. Got it checked out, cardiologist told me not to worry. Left atrial fibrillation.
Left ventricular hypertrophy is common in weight lifters, moreso in users using AAS for prolonged periods of time.
 
ChocolateClen

ChocolateClen

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
In short, AAS cause thinks like left ventricular thickening which leads to less blood pumped overall, can also cause DVT and or clots due to thicker blood while on. High Bp which is typical on cycle causes arteries to endure more stress and may not repair properly
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
AAS usage and long term side effects are still a grey area in medicine. General practitioners do something that really irriates me. They go by this scale of where your testosterone should be in range. Many are so ignorant or lazy that they dont even bother to check any other values. If your free T is say 400 or 500, but you have effects of low T, theyll probably brush you off.

Testosterone is one of those things everyone wants to shuttle off to a urologist. Cant get a referral without requesting one. People often go to an endocrinologist. Ive never met an endocrinologist to handle T therapy.

Back to the range. Scales vary but most run basically 300-1150 total T. Now look at this. Many men Ive had discussions with say they dont feel right below 700. Then even the urologist isnt checking e2 levels. They max range around 70. Again, most men tell me they feel good around 20-30. The DEA has done a wonderful job of terrorizing doctors around the nation.

A part of my job is patient education. Medicine is changing. As I stay on top of new knowledge, we are told wellness is mainly the patients job. Medication compliance, asking for what you need, accurate and timely reporting of symptoms and more. Its all put back on the public.

To assist people with learning, more community health nurses are being employed.R.N.s who go out and educate all age groups to a multitude of factors related to diseases and disorders. They primarily focus on modifiable factors like drinking, smoking, illicit street drugs, and STIs.
This is totally off topic but thus post is gold and makes me happy. I have a lot of issues with doctors and how people in my family handle doctors.

My grandmother has a number of issues and the doctors barely do any lab work to investigate. They take bloods and do CBCs and leave out tests. I ask my mom ajd aunt to maoe sure they get copies of the blood work and they always say, "The doctors said it was fine." And the few times I have pushed and gotten copies things were not fine. Often I have actually had to point out things in the bloodwork to her doctors because they may be "in range" but other things that are not in range change the bigger picture. It blows my mind.It isn't like being in or out of range is the entire story.

And my dad had a stroke 4 months ago ..and it blows my mind how doctors talk about treatment with my mom and him but don't give any guidance as to what got him their and how to get well.

Mix that with the craziness on the internet and anyone saying you need to eat REAL food and be active starts looking like a crazy internet extremist quack.
 

Similar threads


Top