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What Is Strong?

Dustin07

Dustin07

Legend
I've been a natty gym rat since high school (closing in on 40 now), although didn't truly understand good programming until I was closer to 30. I understood lift, cardio, eat or don't eat.

Even so, I find I struggle to break through certain plateaus over and over and over again. Even today at 39 my maxes are similar to what they've always been, although after a down cycle, a deload, or time away from the gym (pandemic closures, injuries, life) I come BACK to my maxes faster. My reps are higher at higher weight, but the 1rm always seems to be the same plateau. It makes me wonder about natural genetic ability.

Do you guys and gals buy into charts like this?
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BennyMagoo79 said:
What if you just add 2Ib to your 1rm every time you test it?
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Then you PR! lol

I think in my case it's life circumstance creating a scenario where my lifting is less regular in order to get any recovery at all. So I am probably much stronger now in terms of results divided by effort. Now days I know I can walk in and deadlift 405 any time I walk in the gym. It used to be anytime I pulled more than 385-400 I knew I had to deload for at least a week or two before I attempted 415, 425+ etc.

But I do question genetic potential since regardless, it seems like my baseline PR zone has remained stable for about 8 years despite trying various programs, bulking, etc.
 
I dont pay attention to those charts.
It says I'm elite because at 55, I can bench 315, SQ-425 and DL-475 at 200 pounds.

Stronger than an average gym goer maybe, in a PL contest I would get smoked...
 
Strong is relevant, and honestly most people don't really care how strong you are. I have benched 353 and Deadlifted 500. I did a half ass in house meet once and at that meet I believe I benched 330 and pulled 495

I was benching like 60 lb more than everyone else in my weight class, but some guy out deadlifted me by like 170lbs lol

So if someone just saw the bench portion of that they would have said I was way stronger than him until he came and smoked my boots in the deadlift.

Or say I walk into planet fitness and do 3 plates on the Smith machine bench for 6-8 reps.

I would probably be the strongest person on the bench there. But then I could go over to the powerlifting gym I used to go to and guys are still doing warm-up sets with my max bench.
 
Power-Lift said:
I dont pay attention to those charts.
It says I'm elite because at 55, I can bench 315, SQ-425 and DL-475 at 200 pounds.

Stronger than an average gym goer maybe, in a PL contest I would get smoked...
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yeah, those are very respectable numbers.


12-13 years ago i was doing cycles of all the legit legal PHs/designer steroids that were available then, at age 50 and 245lbs i was doing 3 reps at 355 on bench-personal best at age 50 but steroid enhanced.... having been athletic my whole life, HS football and tennis and then a avid tennis player most of my life athritis caught up with me, and today at age 63 i weigh 177-185 and usually stay in the range of 250-265 tops.

but i did run a 7k in 31 minutes 6 months after recovering from covid, so i am very happy to be where i am at this point in life-doc says i'm healthier than most of his patients even being a recovering alcoholic/drug abuser. i will take being in such great shape/health over being stronger at this point in life every day of the week 24/7.
 
thebigt said:
yeah, those are very respectable numbers.


12-13 years ago i was doing cycles of all the legit legal PHs/designer steroids that were available then, at age 50 and 245lbs i was doing 3 reps at 355 on bench-personal best at age 50 but steroid enhanced.... having been athletic my whole life, HS football and tennis and then a avid tennis player most of my life athritis caught up with me, and today at age 63 i weigh 177-185 and usually stay in the range of 250-265 tops.

but i did run a 7k in 31 minutes 6 months after recovering from covid, so i am very happy to be where i am at this point in life-doc says i'm healthier than most of his patients even being a recovering alcoholic/drug abuser. i will take being in such great shape/health over being stronger at this point in life every day of the week 24/7.
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Running 7k will keep you alive a heck of a lot longer than a 300 lb bench press will so that's always a bonus too
 
Smont said:
Running 7k will keep you alive a heck of a lot longer than a 300 lb bench press will so that's always a bonus too
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AMEN brother!!!

and still way stronger than most of the 63 year old guys that i associate with, lol. :)
 
Yup, being as fit as one can be is a plus big-time. Our daily walk is just about an hour, in a very hilly neighborhood, at a very fast pace as the dog is on a mission, he makes us keep up... Much more important to me at this age as I ignored that type of thing for ages. I still like to lift as heavy as I can (for now) but I also look FWD to the daily walks. Huff'n and Puff'n...
 
Power-Lift said:
Yup, being as fit as one can be is a plus big-time. Our daily walk is just about an hour, in a very hilly neighborhood, at a very fast pace as the dog is on a mission, he makes us keep up... Much more important to me at this age as I ignored that type of thing for ages. I still like to lift as heavy as I can (for now) but I also look FWD to the daily walks. Huff'n and Puff'n...
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absolutely, i can run faster and longer than many of the kids in high school today, along with outlifting them. :)

btw-enjoy your walks with your dog, i had to put my long time running mate Sid down several years ago and honestly i still well- up thinking about him...my wife tells me she hopes i would shed as many tears for her if something were to happen to her as i did for Sid-i truly loved that dog-Sid was family!!!
 
Yup, we lost a few over the years, after my dog Max passed at age 13, we rescued one from a shelter (very gentle female Pit), she died on Xmas AM of a heart attack a few years back. Then we rescued another, she had lime disease, she passed after 1.5 years from it (kidneys shut down), now we have 'Buddy', so far, so good (healthy). You never know what you get w/ rescues, at least they had a good home in their final days.

Buddy:
 

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Power-Lift said:
Yup, we lost a few over the years, after my dog Max passed at age 13, we rescued one from a shelter (very gentle female Pit), she died on Xmas AM of a heart attack a few years back. Then we rescued another, she had lime disease, she passed after 1.5 years from it (kidneys shut down), now we have 'Buddy', so far, so good (healthy). You never know what you get w/ rescues, at least they had a good home in their final days.

Buddy:
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Buddy looks like my old Dalmatian who coincidentally passed away back around new years of 2009 of heart attack in my arms. that was rough.
 
So I think I'm still trying to process what my actual question is.
Do you guys believe there is a 'standard' genetic limit to upper end strength?

Even looking at all the numbers posted here by you guys (which are strong), it makes me think that those of us in this group of gymrats have more or less achieved what is generally, full genetic potential. The differences here aren't one guy at 400lbs and another guy pulling 1,500 lbs. in fact the bigger difference I see so far in everyone's numbers isn't even gear vs natty as much as it is bodyweight.
 
For your average guy, bodyweight is going to determine the average PEAK potential, and if using steroids that ceiling can get bumped 10-20% I feel.

Age 40+ is Masters in powerlifting, but plenty of guys actually manage to achieve their greatest peak static strength in their early-mid 40s. But by 50s, you are definitely unequivocally past the peak - especially for a steroid user, because the body simply cannot handle them to any similar degree as the 20s & 30s, so you lose out on significant doses of those (or you lose your life, typically).

Depending on how you are built matters too. Things like Benchpress take the longest because you have to build up the smaller upper body muscles, and guys typically lose leg size as they age when they cannot or do not train lower body as hard anymore, which essentially drops them an entire weightclass. So you keep slowly improving the upper body size over decades but you drop 20lbs from not being able to squat/pull hard anymore & produce the highest power/weight ratio in your benchpress.
 
Regarding that chart, I’d say it holds up pretty well based on all of the local meets I’ve been to over the last decade or so. The people you know of/hear about are the generic outliers; those top guys are so far removed from the norm of the bell curve it’s insane.

All of my lifts are currently hovering close to Advanced on that chart, but at competitions when I am peaked all my lifts would be in the Advanced category, & my last meet I produced an Elite squat without wraps. But this is a gen pop-oriented chart, not powerlifting-centric. If you want to see powerlifting standards for classification in the USPA, check this out:

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I still need another 150lbs on my best total ever to total Elite by their standards (in Open Raw 275lb class).
 
Dustin07 said:
So I think I'm still trying to process what my actual question is.
Do you guys believe there is a 'standard' genetic limit to upper end strength?

Even looking at all the numbers posted here by you guys (which are strong), it makes me think that those of us in this group of gymrats have more or less achieved what is generally, full genetic potential. The differences here aren't one guy at 400lbs and another guy pulling 1,500 lbs. in fact the bigger difference I see so far in everyone's numbers isn't even gear vs natty as much as it is bodyweight.
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I sat here and thought about this. I'm thinking of 'standard' like an average. So keep in mind if this is an average of everyone's genetic potential it would be an extremely wide range as it would include everyone from pencil necked geeks to naturally big farm boys (LOL! Sorry best wording I could think of). So everyone's genetic potential is 100% unique to them. Sorry if this doesn't make sense to anyone else. I'm a little bit high right now. :)
 
Hyde said:
For your average guy, bodyweight is going to determine the average PEAK potential, and if using steroids that ceiling can get bumped 10-20% I feel.

Age 40+ is Masters in powerlifting, but plenty of guys actually manage to achieve their greatest peak static strength in their early-mid 40s. But by 50s, you are definitely unequivocally past the peak - especially for a steroid user, because the body simply cannot handle them to any similar degree as the 20s & 30s, so you lose out on significant doses of those (or you lose your life, typically).

Depending on how you are built matters too. Things like Benchpress take the longest because you have to build up the smaller upper body muscles, and guys typically lose leg size as they age when they cannot or do not train lower body as hard anymore, which essentially drops them an entire weightclass. So you keep slowly improving the upper body size over decades but you drop 20lbs from not being able to squat/pull hard anymore & produce the highest power/weight ratio in your benchpress.
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Makes sense. I have already lost about 1-2" around my quads, although actually about the same around chest but I think it's mostly in the lats since I do far less oly and pull-ups now since leaving xfit. One of the biggest things I have attributed that too is that I'm not squatting 4 x's per week anymore, and I'm not doing WOD's of 100+ reps of squats, fronts squats, lunges etc. Not sure I could recover from that anymore.

now that I think about it my biceps are down about an inch as well no matter what I do. For all the negatives and hate that CrossFit has received over the years, the volume when I was 30-33yrs old turned me into an absolute beast and it's phenomenally hard to attain those stats again.
 
CasperKValentine said:
I sat here and thought about this. I'm thinking of 'standard' like an average. So keep in mind if this is an average of everyone's genetic potential it would be an extremely wide range as it would include everyone from pencil necked geeks to naturally big farm boys (LOL! Sorry best wording I could think of). So everyone's genetic potential is 100% unique to them. Sorry if this doesn't make sense to anyone else. I'm a little bit high right now. :)
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So what has me pondering all of this is really the fact that I turn 40 next fall and one of my goals is a 500lb DL. I weigh 180 and my PR is 455. I had an injury in winter of '15/16 and only this year was able to break 405 again but now I'm finding I can hit that 405 consistently. My bench always bounces back to 250+ with only minor consistency needed on my part, but always peaks at 280 when I'm training hard. But the more I look at my own numbers and guys around me it seems like well trained athletes average in those mid 400s and only a select few really break 500-600lb+ deadlifts naturally, but they are genetic monsters. Like a buddy of mine who is 5'5", weighs 30lbs more than me and has a 650lb pull. Super impressive, and also really built for deads.
 
Dustin07 said:
So what has me pondering all of this is really the fact that I turn 40 next fall and one of my goals is a 500lb DL. I weigh 180 and my PR is 455. I had an injury in winter of '15/16 and only this year was able to break 405 again but now I'm finding I can hit that 405 consistently. My bench always bounces back to 250+ with only minor consistency needed on my part, but always peaks at 280 when I'm training hard. But the more I look at my own numbers and guys around me it seems like well trained athletes average in those mid 400s and only a select few really break 500-600lb+ deadlifts naturally, but they are genetic monsters. Like a buddy of mine who is 5'5", weighs 30lbs more than me and has a 650lb pull. Super impressive, and also really built for deads.
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I'm going on 45 in few months. I believe a big part of that not hitting 405 consistently is that you're honestly at a point where you're now fighting against age brother. Even if you don't end up hitting your goals as long as your working towards them you are being the best that you can be. Getting ready to turn 45 is messing with my mind way more then turning 40. It's like I've suddenly woke up and realized my youthful feeling days are numbered. LOL!
 
CasperKValentine said:
I'm going on 45 in few months. I believe a big part of that not hitting 405 consistently is that you're honestly at a point where you're now fighting against age brother. Even if you don't end up hitting your goals as long as your working towards them you are being the best that you can be. Getting ready to turn 45 is messing with my mind way more then turning 40. It's like I've suddenly woke up and realized my youthful feeling days are numbered. LOL!
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I know these feelings

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CasperKValentine said:
I'm going on 45 in few months. I believe a big part of that not hitting 405 consistently is that you're honestly at a point where you're now fighting against age brother. Even if you don't end up hitting your goals as long as your working towards them you are being the best that you can be. Getting ready to turn 45 is messing with my mind way more then turning 40. It's like I've suddenly woke up and realized my youthful feeling days are numbered. LOL!
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You know what's funny is I told my wife I always wanted that 'power lifting dad bod' in my 40s. I wanted to be OK with not chasing the 6-pack anymore, carry whatever sized keg I do, but have those yoked traps and arms/shoulders. lately with a shirt on I'm feeling pretty good about that lol. There is a huge difference in men in their 40s and 50s and even 60s that clearly spent their life lifting vs those who didn't. the shoulders to me are always the biggest giveaway.
 
johnny412 said:
thebigt what are your bench and squat maxes at 63?
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i workout alone in my basement and like i said in earlier post i stay in 250-270 range tops for bench. since my knee replacement i stay in the 350-370 range for squats with 370 being as high as i will go. my weight is usually in the 177-185 range depending on if i'm training for a race it might go slightly below 177 but not by much.

how about you?
 
thebigt said:
i workout alone in my basement and like i said in earlier post i stay in 250-270 range tops for bench. since my knee replacement i stay in the 350-370 range for squats with 370 being as high as i will go. my weight is usually in the 177-185 range depending on if i'm training for a race it might go slightly below 177 but not by much.

how about you?
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damn brother nowhere near that at 55. max bench now prol 225. knees wont let me do much at all on squat maybe 225 there too. max in my twentys on squat was 345 for 3 reps......never tried to single it because i was super proud of the 3 at 345.
 
johnny412 said:
damn brother nowhere near that at 55. max bench now prol 225. knees wont let me do much at all on squat maybe 225 there too. max in my twentys on squat was 345 for 3 reps......never tried to single it because i was super proud of the 3 at 345.
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i couldn't squat at all for quite awhile or run before knee replacement--it was a blessing.

you have very respectable numbers for 55, there aren't many guys in the general population our age that lift or do any strenuous exercise at all. i count my blessings everyday-GOD has been good to me!!!
 
@Dustin07

I think the thing that has to happen, that becomes harder and harder to happen with age, is that you must find a way to continually string together successful, PROGRESSIVE training long enough to reach heights you have never achieved. So the higher the peak, the bigger the base must be laid. Injury, life, excuses (real and manufactured) will present themselves and your drive to carry on will be questioned.

Training how you want, when you want is great. But doing more than you have ever done, slogging for months & years on end even towards very narrow goals - that’s what it takes, and that will get to be a very hard thing at some point for everyone. And the returns become less and less despite greater and greater investment required.
 
Hyde said:
@Dustin07

I think the thing that has to happen, that becomes harder and harder to happen with age, is that you must find a way to continually string together successful, PROGRESSIVE training long enough to reach heights you have never achieved. So the higher the peak, the bigger the base must be laid. Injury, life, excuses (real and manufactured) will present themselves and your drive to carry on will be questioned.

Training how you want, when you want is great. But doing more than you have ever done, slogging for months & years on end even towards very narrow goals - that’s what it takes, and that will get to be a very hard thing at some point for everyone. And the returns become less and less despite greater and greater investment required.
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well put man. the part about the higher the peak, the bigger the base struck a note with me. I remember when I first got serious about lifting so many years ago and how shitty my first 315lb deadlift was compared to today, where it's still in my warm up sets and often times beltless. I also remember the first time I benched 250 (it was new years eve, my brother was spotting me). it was a huge accomplishment. now days I know that I can walk into the gym pretty much anytime I want and hit 250 for a single without a spot. So the base is definitely laid. I just have to get some traction from these numbers to push further.

really appreciate the responses. some times I think I ask something for data, but what I'm probably actually seeking is accountability and inspiration.
 
Dustin07 said:
well put man. the part about the higher the peak, the bigger the base struck a note with me. I remember when I first got serious about lifting so many years ago and how shitty my first 315lb deadlift was compared to today, where it's still in my warm up sets and often times beltless. I also remember the first time I benched 250 (it was new years eve, my brother was spotting me). it was a huge accomplishment. now days I know that I can walk into the gym pretty much anytime I want and hit 250 for a single without a spot. So the base is definitely laid. I just have to get some traction from these numbers to push further.

really appreciate the responses. some times I think I ask something for data, but what I'm probably actually seeking is accountability and inspiration.
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Clint Darden had a video years ago on Vimeo that’s been deleted talking about when champions train. When it is dark & incredibly early, and all you want to do is sleep in your warm bed - that is when champions train. When you have had such a long, hard day, or when your body is still sore and aching from the last time, when it is freezing out & pouring rain, or when it is warm & sunny and your friends are barbecuing - that is when champions train.

People who get to the top are hungry - so hungry, they go the distance. It’s not balanced, so it’s not something that can last forever. It may or may not even be a fulfilling way to spend your life & energy. But that’s what it takes, after a point.
 
Hyde said:
Clint Darden had a video years ago on Vimeo that’s been deleted talking about when champions train. When it is dark & incredibly early, and all you want to do is sleep in your warm bed - that is when champions train. When you have had such a long, hard day, or when your body is still sore and aching from the last time, when it is freezing out & pouring rain, or when it is warm & sunny and your friends are barbecuing - that is when champions train.

People who get to the top are hungry - so hungry, they go the distance. It’s not balanced, so it’s not something that can last forever. It may or may not even be a fulfilling way to spend your life & energy. But that’s what it takes, after a point.
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My wrestling coach in high school said he would research his competition and find out what they did to train, then he would make sure he did everything they did and MORE. He was certain that nobody was out training him. He was the best coach I've ever had in any sport, the man I wanted to work the hardest for (other than dad) and he had the most state victories as a coach out here.
 
@Dustin07

You can't have a peak without having a valley between them. The older you get the less you should be peaking and instead work on expanding your base strength. Genetic leverages factor in too and while you can always get stronger how much risk will you accept to pursue the endeavor? I gained strength quite easily when younger with healthy joints. It was so natural I didn't realize how freaky I was until others started saying things about it. After 7 tendon tears with 4 complete ruptures training longevity is my focus now.

@Power-Lift

I had to put my rescue pit down 11 years ago and I'm still not over it.
 
At 195 my bench is approaching 500. I'll be testing out my 1RM in a couple months. My best deadlift was 650 and squat 550 at 205 pounds. My squat is still in the mid 500s but deadlift is much lower. I'm not built for deads but I have enough muscle that I can still get heavy with it. The trick is making small strength gains over a long period of time. I've been lifting for 25 years. Learning how and when to deload was a game changer.
 
f4iguy said:
At 195 my bench is approaching 500. I'll be testing out my 1RM in a couple months. My best deadlift was 650 and squat 550 at 205 pounds. My squat is still in the mid 500s but deadlift is much lower. I'm not built for deads but I have enough muscle that I can still get heavy with it. The trick is making small strength gains over a long period of time. I've been lifting for 25 years. Learning how and when to deload was a game changer.
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Dude that's incredible, and good advice.

Kronic said:
just gotta be able to lift your girl
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ha this is true as well.
 
bad rad said:
@Dustin07

You can't have a peak without having a valley between them. The older you get the less you should be peaking and instead work on expanding your base strength. Genetic leverages factor in too and while you can always get stronger how much risk will you accept to pursue the endeavor? I gained strength quite easily when younger with healthy joints. It was so natural I didn't realize how freaky I was until others started saying things about it. After 7 tendon tears with 4 complete ruptures training longevity is my focus now.

@Power-Lift

I had to put my rescue pit down 11 years ago and I'm still not over it.
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over 2 years since i had to put my SID down...i feel your pain.
 
I know this isn't what you are after, but a perspective on strength when you are getting older. I used to focus a lot on strength through my 20s and 30s and at several points was benching 335, DL 545, suqatting 455 for reps which isn't any powerlifting winning weight but more than anyone I knew and I got damn big but still let me play rugby, train MMA, and all the other things I liked.

Now in my mid 40s I no longer train that heavy, but still focus on progressive overload to continually keep up strength up but with focus on mobility and endurance. Lots of static stretching, volume, and shortened recovery time. Over the holidays I played tackle football, a few matches of rugby, and general smash mouth activities with guys in their 20s and crushed most of them. Then did some back country snowboarding, hiking hours each day with all but 1 guy trailing me. Nothing makes you feel stronger as you start getting a little older and being able to not only still compete but be more fit than others.
 
kisaj said:
I know this isn't what you are after, but a perspective on strength when you are getting older. I used to focus a lot on strength through my 20s and 30s and at several points was benching 335, DL 545, suqatting 455 for reps which isn't any powerlifting winning weight but more than anyone I knew and I got damn big but still let me play rugby, train MMA, and all the other things I liked.

Now in my mid 40s I no longer train that heavy, but still focus on progressive overload to continually keep up strength up but with focus on mobility and endurance. Lots of static stretching, volume, and shortened recovery time. Over the holidays I played tackle football, a few matches of rugby, and general smash mouth activities with guys in their 20s and crushed most of them. Then did some back country snowboarding, hiking hours each day with all but 1 guy trailing me. Nothing makes you feel stronger as you start getting a little older and being able to not only still compete but be more fit than others.
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well said my man, well said!!! (y)
 
kisaj said:
Nothing makes you feel stronger as you start getting a little older and being able to not only still compete but be more fit than others.
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Being facetious, but I’m not really joking either…
 
Naw, “genetic limit” is not a thing, it’s just a excuse for ppl to accept that they are not big/strong enough. I can prove it to anyone of you but I doubt anyone would actually do what it takes. I do believe it’s a limit to what you can gain on your current lifestyle though. Sorry, it might be harsh but it’s the truth, but, who cares if you’re not strong enough as long as you enjoy the ride and are healthy.
 
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