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What happened to the scam supplements research thread?

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DarCSA

I remember seeing a thread here called that or something along those lines. It did not seem to be out of hand. Was it deleted or am I searching under the wrong title? I found it to be thought provoking and informative. If anyone can tell me what happened to it I would like to know. We should know about the scam supplements out there. It will help address problems that newer members have that are new to weight lifting. They need to know what is good for them and at good prices. They should be able to see a list of products that do not work. This will help them in their use of their funds. We all take money very seriously and something of that nature should be taken seriously. Well if it was moved can you give me a link. I would like to add a post to it. If it was deleted then it shoud not have been. Why would someone want to delete something that can be beneficial to the younger and new members here. They need the help as much as anyone. Please show more discretion when things are deleted  around here. I see more and more threads disappearing as of late it seems for very bogus reasons if any at all. Or if I am looking under the wrong title please let me know. Thanks
 
YJ, it woud be nice if you could get this thread going again. Of course, only if you have the time but it was a good thread.
 
It wont be deleted again if you or some other member wants to get it going again. I will make sure of it.
 
Maybe eventually, I'll sit on it for awhile. Its inevitable that no one will agree with the outcome, and instead of refuting it, they just delete it, which is lame as hell.
 
It turned into a Glutamine war i think, that's why it got deleted, I think people should be smart and just get different point of view and back their stuff with medical evidence before deleting stuff.
 
I would be willing to start it, we would have to set up some rules for it this time. I wont be able to contribute as much due to the new schedule, but this is a great board project to pass around to other boards.
 
I'm in... perhaps once we have a list together of products to investigate each one can be given to a person to research and debunk. If that person cannot find irrefutable medical evidence to do so then it's either passed on to someone who can or is removed from the list. What do you think?
 
Sounds good, like a debatible supplement, post some 10-20 supplement, people have 1 week of researching or something then bingo, time to sum up all those reviews and experiences and classify it as GOOD OR WASTE.
 
Draven said:
I'm in... perhaps once we have a list together of products to investigate each one can be given to a person to research and debunk. If that person cannot find irrefutable medical evidence to do so then it's either passed on to someone who can or is removed from the list. What do you think?
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I like it....
 
Now for the list....

Glutamine :D (we'll beat it to death a little more)
Tribulus
.... I'm drawing a blank on more......
 
Once the major scam products are reestablished and any new ones added, all major companies that produce versions of said product should be listed along side, would probably be the easiest way to do it?

i.e.,

methoxy
company A- product name
company B- product name
company C- product name

ecdy
company A- product name
etc

glutamine (? ;) )
company-product
etc


this work?
 
I know you guys are running with this, but the only advice I would like to voice is to only put in real scam supplements. Ones that have been proven to be scams. Not supps like glutamine. Even if YJ has convinced me to try to cut w/out it.
 
N'Pursuit said:
I know you guys are running with this, but the only advice I would like to voice is to only put in real scam supplements. Ones that have been proven to be scams. Not supps like glutamine. Even if YJ has convinced me to try to cut w/out it.
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Can you refute the fact glutamine is not a scam? Can anyone? Until someone someone does successfully or even partially, I think its safe to assume its a scam.


Ps- "It works for me" wont suffice.
 
I'll help but when you guys say 'medical evidence' I'm gonna make fun of you if you use secondary sources. Find the primaries, read them, and then draw your conclusions. Don't let some internet monkey do it for you. If you can find the bibliographic reference in a secondary source (and if it doesn't have them its not worth ****) but can't find the article lemme know and I can probably get it out of the library here...also more than just abstracts are good :) I guess you don't have to do that but I think primary based research is the way to go. For example, a doctor friend of mine was telling me how ephedra was not worth the risk because users only lost 4 lbs more with it. I was like uhhh? She showed me the article, I looked at the reference, got the primary source and began destroying. First, it was not 4 lbs it was 4 kg, which is close to 8lbs. And it was an 8 week study. The groups were not on a restricted diet and did not have to exercise. The placebo group lost on average about .8 kg while the actively treated group lost 4....thats like a pretty significant difference especially for not working out or dieting...and the researchers conducting the study drew the same conclusion I did. Just saying all this to make the point that people can use good research to prove a point completely opposite the way it was intended to be proven...man I'm rambly today...

J

J
 
Originally posted by YellowJacket


Can you refute the fact glutamine is not a scam? Can anyone? Until someone someone does successfully or even partially, I think its safe to assume its a scam.


Ps- "It works for me" wont suffice.
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Well I guess my idea of scam supplements are for example a myostatin blocker not an amino acid naturally found in the body.
 
Glutamine is a supplement where you like it or not... is as much debatible as myostatic ****. The reason we want to bring a supplement be it naturally found in the body or not is so people can put money on scientifically proven methods that it "WORKS" and not waste any more money on products that only bring placebo into the job.
 
Jay Mc said:
I'll help but when you guys say 'medical evidence' I'm gonna make fun of you if you use secondary sources. Find the primaries, read them, and then draw your conclusions.
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Drawing conclusions does not work alone. Interpretation of an abstract/article or whatever will most likely vary from person to person. I want proof, I dont want what you *think* it means. Any peer review article, abstract, journal or medical data is better than personal justification.


Don't let some internet monkey do it for you.
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I dont know if I would go as far as saying JAMA, NEJM, Medline, Highwire, Duke, etc are 'Internet Monkeys'

also more than just abstracts are good :)
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Yes, but when you have 40 abstracts on the ineffectiveness of glutamine or any other product, abstracts will do, please, feel free to take it upon yourself to reference and find them for yourself, its not that difficult.
 
YellowJacket said:


Can you refute the fact glutamine is not a scam? Can anyone? Until someone someone does successfully or even partially, I think its safe to assume its a scam.


Ps- "It works for me" wont suffice.
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Well, tell me what about it is a scam and then I'll decide if I want to look in to it :) Is it gonna make you gain 50 lbs in 12 weeks, no. But I think it might do at least something...like I bet it will help protect from food bourne pathogens. Cells in your instines that help remove said pathogens use glutamine for fuel. SO if they have more fuel they'll be more effective at doing this. Now if you want to talk about anti-catabolic properties/increased plasma levels through oral ingestion, then I dunno. I've read lots of research and each new study seems to conflict with the findings of a previous one...it might be a moot point, like how many licks does it take to get to the middle of a tootsie pop...the world may never know :)

Things like ecdy, trib, methoxy, ginseng, I could see those being on the list...

J
 
N'Pursuit said:


 

Well I guess my idea of scam supplements are for example a myostatin blocker not an amino acid naturally found in the body.
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Glutamine is found in the body, in great abundance, so why supplement with it? Creatine is found naturally in the body, would you buy creatine serum? Hopefully not.
 
Jay Mc said:


Well, tell me what about it is a scam and then I'll decide if I want to look in to it :) Is it gonna make you gain 50 lbs in 12 weeks, no. But I think it might do at least something...like I bet it will help protect from food bourne pathogens. Cells in your instines that help remove said pathogens use glutamine for fuel. SO if they have more fuel they'll be more effective at doing this. Now if you want to talk about anti-catabolic properties/increased plasma levels through oral ingestion, then I dunno. I've read lots of research and each new study seems to conflict with the findings of a previous one...it might be a moot point, like how many licks does it take to get to the middle of a tootsie pop...the world may never know :)

Things like ecdy, trib, methoxy, ginseng, I could see those being on the list...

J
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And you basal glutamine levels wouldnt do that? Obviously or we'd all be walking around sick. Not to mention this is a list of supplements as pertains to bodybuilding.

Then I tell you what, you make you a list and do what you got to do.
 
Well it looks like I jumpstarted the thread again, which is great, but in order to keep this thread intact make sure that we KEEP IT CIVIL! Otherwise we are forced to edit, blah, blah, etc, etc.... ;) Thanks.

This is about taking a position on whether a certain supplement(s) are scams or not and proving it with science.
 
YellowJacket said:



I dont know if I would go as far as saying JAMA, NEJM, Medline, Highwire, Duke, etc are 'Internet Monkeys'


Those mostly contain primary sources...



Yes, but when you have 40 abstracts on the ineffectiveness of glutamine or any other product, abstracts will do, please, feel free to take it upon yourself to reference and find them for yourself, its not that difficult.
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40 really? damn!! :) :) My point wasn't to rag on anyone I just don't want to see poorly interpreted **** off supplement company websites popping up. Not saying it will or that it does, I'm new to this board, I just know that its a problem w/other boards on the net...and I figured I'd put my two cents in...

J
 
Jay Mc said:


40 really? damn!! :) :) My point wasn't to rag on anyone I just don't want to see poorly interpreted **** off supplement company websites popping up. Not saying it will or that it does, I'm new to this board, I just know that its a problem w/other boards on the net...and I figured I'd put my two cents in...

J
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Doesnt happen here, we get the occasional T-Mag bullshit, but everyone knows thats a comical reference ;)
 
Well let's get it going. Take a position and prove it with science (not BS personal attacks/slander) and let's see where this goes!
 
Glutamine has been proven worthless, unless someone wants to step up and prove it otherwise, but I guess to keep the crybabies quiet, we'll leave it off. So you guys run with this and best of luck.
 
ow? :D good ****, YJ you still got that initial list handy? be easier to work off of and add to
 
YellowJacket said:


And you basal glutamine levels wouldnt do that? Obviously or we'd all be walking around sick. Not to mention this is a list of supplements as pertains to bodybuilding.

Then I tell you what, you make you a list and do what you got to do.
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if regular intake amounts does a good job, increased amounts does a great job. Plus you could argue (in theory...) that if less is being used by intestinal mucosa cells there would be more available to the rest of the body...I'm not making that argument cause I have nothign to back it up with, just saying...

breath homepiece...I'm not assaulting. I'm trying to say oral glutamine has been said to do a lot things. Some of which are reasonable, some aren't. I just think it would be nice to pick the one thing that the concern is over, like, increased immune function, decreased catabolism, etc. If you just say glutamine doesn't work then there is too much room for argument.

J
 
Why keep glutamine off? YJ, has laid out a stellar case against it, let see if someone wants to try back it as a non-scam supplement.
 
Originally posted by YellowJacket



Glutamine is found in the body, in great abundance, so why supplement with it? Creatine is found naturally in the body, would you buy creatine serum? Hopefully not.
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Hey homez I'm not looking to argue with you on it.   I wouldn't even go there.  Please don't sink to suggest that I would buy a creatine serum.  I just suggested that only "proven" scams be listed.  You have written enough up on glutamine that has made me cut it out, but there is still too much info out there on it that it may be beneficial.
 
dude I can't keep up w/thread here...too many people posting! You guys should make this IRC or something ;)

J
 
Biggin said:
ow? :D good ****, YJ you still got that initial list handy? be easier to work off of and add to
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Nope, that was deleted also. We have the one from when the board 1st started, but we have added to it greatly since then, should not be hard to recollect the lost ones....although we shouldnt have to :rolleyes: ;)


Jay Mc said:


if regular intake amounts does a good job, increased amounts does a great job. Plus you could argue (in theory...) that if less is being used by intestinal mucosa cells there would be more available to the rest of the body...I'm not making that argument cause I have nothign to back it up with, just saying...
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Just checking ;) Thought we had another contestant. More isnt always better.

I'm trying to say oral glutamine has been said to do a lot things.
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So has methoxy. Glutamine has cell volumizing properties, repairs soft tissue damage, boosts the immune system, inproves athletic performance, etc. Wow, this is seemingly a miracle supplement huh? Labels claim a lot of things, none of which mean anything unless backed up. Thats why I stick with few supplements. Ones that have basic logic and dont promise something that someone, with little supplement knowledge, can rule out.


Some of which are reasonable, some aren't. I just think it would be nice to pick the one thing that the concern is over, like, increased immune function, decreased catabolism, etc. If you just say glutamine doesn't work then there is too much room for argument.

J
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Dont know which thread you missed, but hit "glutamine" in the search function and read up, its been dismissed a few times.

windwords7 said:
Why keep glutamine off? YJ, has laid out a stellar case against it, let see if someone wants to try back it as a non-scam supplement.
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You'll always have the mainstreet bullshit believers who, regardless of science and data, will complain and bitch and moan that it works, and they believe in it because they scored some placebo from it, so I'll leave well enough alone and drop the glutamine trashing, if everyone cant see through it by now, its a lost cause. Not to mention I dont think it would fair well at many boards which have supplement companies as sponsors.
 
N'Pursuit said:


 

Hey homez I'm not looking to argue with you on it.   I wouldn't even go there.  Please don't sink to suggest that I would buy a creatine serum.  I just suggested that only "proven" scams be listed.  You have written enough up on glutamine that has made me cut it out, but there is still too much info out there on it that it may be beneficial.
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I understand....... but if there is info. out there that proves it useful, I wish someone would step forward with it, Im waiting. (Dont bring me T-Mag articles or a Jay Cutler ad please)
 
YellowJacket said:



Just checking ;) Thought we had another contestant. More isnt always better.



So has methoxy. Glutamine has cell volumizing properties, repairs soft tissue damage, boosts the immune system, inproves athletic performance, etc. Wow, this is seemingly a miracle supplement huh? Labels claim a lot of things, none of which mean anything unless backed up. Thats why I stick with few supplements. Ones that have basic logic and dont promise something that someone, with little supplement knowledge, can rule out.
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That was kinda my point...



Dont know which thread you missed, but hit "glutamine" in the search function and read up, its been dismissed a few times.

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check my registration date, it was like last monday :) When I first researched glutamine there were lots of studies saying it was great, and had been used on bed ridden patients forever, blah blah but not much about oral gluatamine. I know from school that glutamine is a very important amino and is used in lots of things and is conditionally essential. Its impossible to stay current on every supplement. I picked ephedrine and chose to champion it. You obviously picked glutamine and chose to destroy it :) I'm in my last semester of school and work helluv hours as a paramedic so I just can't read all the time, as I'm sure everyone can't. I'm not arguing for or against. In fact I'm not even sure what is being argued at all, that was kinda my point. You threw up a lot of things glutamine was supposed to do, I'm guessing there's evidence to say it does none of those. I guess I'll go read all the old posts...seesh...I wish I never mentioned glutamine...

I gotta go take my myostatin and pig testicle extract anyway...

J
 
Essential & supplement do not go together. I hate to carry the glutamine bullshit over to other threads, since theres already 3 or 4 about it (oh wait, maybe just 2 now :rolleyes: ) But I'll cut you a break since you're a newbie ;)
 
Ok, so beyond the glutamine issue here, what else? I already covered Trib in my article in the sup section but perhaps I could go deeper into it's supposed use post cycle, although that wouldn't take long.

Here's what the old list had:

Methoxy
Cutting Gel.
pyruvate
hmb
androsteindione
cell-tech
no2
methoxypro
arginine
Chromium Piccolinate
Creatine serum
effervesant orange
Ecdy
Muscletech
ecysterone
Diosgenin (wild yams)
Glutamine
Rhodiola
Yohimbe
Cordyceps fungus
Shilajit or mummio
Smilax
Avena Sativa (oats)
Ecdysterone (Suma)
Liquid Creatine
Saw palmetto berries
ß-sitosterol and other related sterols
 
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