What Does Science Say About Intentional Over-Feeding?

ucimigrate

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Hi Everyone,

1. By now, we know that fat loss is simply a matter of accounting.

That is, over a long period of time, it is the caloric deficit or surplus that determines whether weight is lost or gain; specifically, it is the presence or absence of intense exercise that determines whether the gains are more muscle or fat mass.

2. However, I am getting excited reading about intermittent fasting diets.

3. Again, the problem is information overload.

4. If fat loss was the only goal, and muscle loss along with it be damned, I would say simply eating fewer meals, such as just protein and vegetables, would be the best way.

Consistent with obesity studies, it would mean about 800 calories day, mostly from protein. This would result in weight loss; with any exercise, and particularly resistance training, the weight would be mostly fat.

5. However, physically and psychologically, the rewarding part is finally eating well.

6. What does science say about over-feeding? How can we ensure that calories go to more muscle and glycogen, and not fat?

7. Any research on it?

8. If I had to guess, the ideal way to do this would be:

a. Three or four intense workout sessions.
b. Some whey protein and some carbs before the workout
c. A huge meal, mostly of quick digesting whey protein and starch after the workout
d. Either just proteins and vegetables the rest of the time, or fasting.

9. Or, the other way would be dieting during the weekdays, and cheat meals during the weekend.

Research would show how long the body can engage in futile metabolism, before people just start to get fat.


10. Any research on how to best do this?
 
The Solution

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You have made multiple threads on IF
You have stated you don't adhere to it well
And you continue to make more threads on IF

2. However, I am getting an excited reading about intermittent fasting diets.

You continually state you find it too "Difficult"
I really think with the dozens of threads you are making you are truly in paralysis by analysis state and doing way too much micromanaging. This is taking you away from the big picture of being consistent.

As @Resolve10 has said:
Sustainability and adherence are probably the most important factor for lasting change and results so if you personally don't like fasting don't do it and definitely don't feel you are missing some special benefits to fasting. There is no magic there.


There is no magic in doing a massive meal and then limiting yourself to protein and veggies the rest of the day and a short protein shake and carbs prior to training.
 

ucimigrate

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@The Solution, thanks.

1. I agree what you say about consistency. The magic pill is just staying consistent; your words of both "sustainability" and "adherence" to a program are what make it work.

2. Rather, it is just hard to find something that works. I am just very frustrated. I guess it is psychological.

3. It sounds like after this Coronavirus ends, and the gyms open up, I just need to put goals and plans, on paper, get to it, and carefully monitor progress.

Cutting carbs and calories can definitely fatigue a person, so take careful note. Do not be afraid to do more, etc.

4. I guess I just get excited by all those program ads, including Mike Whitfield's "Reboot" where you can eat some cheat meals that actually ACCELERATE fat loss.
 
Resolve10

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I am going to get sucked in again.

So just a heads up I feel it is conflicting you ask for science then post programs like "Reboot". I have no idea what that is it could be very science based (given he says cheat meals accelerate fat loss I am doubtful), but it just seems like conflicting reasoning to me.

Again adherence and lifestyle is most important, then things like total intake, macros, then timing, etc. It seems you are focusing on things in the wrong direction of importance.

If you want science read these:
ISSN Position Stand on Diets
Nutritional Recommendations for Physique Athletes

Edit: Ok fixed links and updated second one.
 
The Solution

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You want to know what accelerates fat loss?
A consistent caloric deficit.
Stick to that for 6-12 weeks and you will find good results.
 

ucimigrate

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Thanks, guys.

I know, it seems like I am talking in circles. But, seeing educated, knowledgeable, experienced guys like you reiterate the main points helps me stay on track.

I actually am putting what you said into practice. I just got back from a walk. Although I could eat some more, I am laying off.

Small changes, for that darn necessary caloric deficit.
 
HIT4ME

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Buddy, you either want to do it or you don't. There is no secret. And I have seen people who don't even understand what a carb is, lose over 100 pounds because they just wanted it.

Anyone telling you a "cheat meal" will "accelerate fat loss" is either dumb, trying to sell you something, or most likely both.
 

ucimigrate

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I see. I agree, doing is important.

1. In the past, significant dieting made my blood sugar so slow, energy so low, strength so low, muscles deflated, etc.

2. Is there any info on metabolic slowdown during dieting?

I have read articles on Pubmed, etc. that it can happen after as little as 48 hours during dieting.

3. I know in the last 20 years, cheat meals appealed to:

- psychological benefits of eating good tasting food
- feeding muscles with more calories
- the idea that there is physiological benefits to a few meals
- Leptin (which takes longer than a few meals)
 
HIT4ME

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Any serious weight loss dieting is going to make your energy levels lower, muscles flatter, strength lower. Period. End of story.

Typically at the beginning of a severe diet you will deplete carbs pretty rapidly and that accounts for much of the depletion and strength lost. You are not losing muscle really. Once the depletion is complete and you stabilize after a few weeks you will not see anymore strentgh decreases if you have sufficient protein intake.

Not to sound rude, but why ask about information on something and then turn around and talk about reading on pubmed? If you have a study, post it up for us to discuss.

How much do you weigh? How tall? What do you think you have to lose for weight/fat? We need to get you on a plan you can follow and take action on rather than have you keep looking for magic.

The entire "metabolic slowdown" thing is so overblown that I pretty much consider it a myth at this point. I am not saying there is 100% absolutely no slow down. What I am saying is that a certain amount of work requires a certain amount of energy, and there is no magic where you body can defy physics and do the same work with less energy, nor is there any reason for your body to use more energy to do the same amount of work just because you are eating more.

Refeeds and cheat meals do have a place- but having 1 meal a week isn't going to be magical (more recent research suggest it may take multiple days at higher intakes to really impact metabolic processes). Lots of sites and books sell these refeeds or cheat meals as a good thing - and they can be, as you pointed out the psychological component us big - but they can easily be overdone and wipe out an entire week's worth of work in one meal.
 
HIT4ME

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Also, to your original question - intentionally over feeding in relation to what?

Constantly eating 200 calories a day above maintenance for years on end will have a bigger impact than eating an extra 5000 calories once a month...especially if the other 29 days you are in a deficit. Note that these numbers are fictitious to illustrate a point, not a recommendation.
 

ucimigrate

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HIT4ME:

Before we discuss more, thanks for all the info, and certainly patience. I do not mean to be annoying.

Rather, I guess it sounds like I have been discouraged, negative, put a lot of info into things, etc.

My guess is anyone who has lots of experience in exercise programs, etc. has either done too much of something, too little of another, etc.

Since you are asking for a general life history:

1. Right now, I am pretty out of shape.

35 years old, male (of course). 174 cm/5'8.5"

A month ago, I weighed in at about 100 kilograms, using a digital scale.

2. Over the years, I have been anywhere from 120 lbs, under 5% bodyfat (using the 3-point caliper method), to now, which I estimate about 30% bodyfat.

3. This has not been due to sheer laziness. Rather, I am in China. Coronavirus shut everything down, especially gyms, for six months.

Before that, I have been on a medication which may cause fat gain or water retention. Plus, I was working three jobs. It is not like college, where you can workout first thing in the morning, etc.

4. On the optimistic note, when I stopped this medication, and actually worked as a kindergarten teacher in a new part of this country, I went from about 5000 steps a day back up to 15,000 steps. A combination of more moving around (both intense intensity and long and slow, as well as moderation of diet), caused me to weigh in at about 95 kilograms on the scale.

So, the point is, even if my big picture is poor right now, and even if medication does negatively affect things, it certainly is not impossible to make progress.

5. The program I stuck to most of all was Body-for-Life.

This was about 15 years ago.

I did their fasted weight lifting, fasted cardio, etc. Even my university doctor and nutritionalist added up calories, etc.: about 1800 a day.

Yet, even though I only weighed about 125 lbs, etc. I still had a lack of energy, was not strong at all, no six pack abs, etc. It was not as good as all those testimonials, etc.

6. If I had my choice, I would like a program again, maybe something like Tom Venuto's "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle".

I can see a pre-workout shooter, since I feel more alert and have more strength with food, plus fasted cardio burning 300% more fat is a b.s. myth used by Body for Life.

A bigger post-workout meal, since my body needs protein and carbs.

Some carbohydrates and protein throughout the day, as eating no carbs makes me light-headed and lose energy.

7. The biggest problem is program hopping. As you guys pointed out, it seems temping that people say "do my bodyweight finishers, not traditional cardio" or "if you do things my way, you will lose your fat quicker and enjoy it more" etc.

8. Any more places of where to start?
 
HIT4ME

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First off - don't be too disappointed. I understand how it is to have to work to scrape by and your focus isn't on staying healthy. But I'm going to be honest here and tell you something I truly believe - WE ACTUALLY GET WHAT WE WANT IN LIFE.

I mean this. You are overweight because you want to be. You want to have easy meals when you're tired. You want to sleep in. You want to eat whatever is convenient. You want to use excuses to hide your actions. I mean, Covid is really a reason for failure? I can see it made things harder or changed a schedule, but we're talking about NOT DOING something here (eating). No matter how busy you are, it is pretty easy to NOT do something.

Should you feel bad about this? No. It's life. Not everyone has the same values and goals. If you really value that sleep, or those chips or ice cream, or your relaxation while you get take out and watch a movie - then that's what you value and you should recognize that. I do it too. I've done it a lot more than I do it now even. I used to do it almost every night.

So, where to start? How about examining your wants honestly. It doesn't sound like you are willing to give up much to get the body you want - so don't. But maybe you should think about your health.

When I was 33 years old I weighed at least 300 pounds. I don't know because I didn't step on a scale. I honestly didn't give a crap about my weight. I wasn't 300+ because I COULDN'T diet or workout. I actually knew a lot about it. As a 200 pound 12 year old, I lost 60 pounds one summer and came back to school and no one recognized me. As an 18 year old I started up a supplement retail company. I knew enough. I just didn't care.

But for me, that started to change when my 85 year old grandmother began to lose her ability to walk, or even stand from a chair. One day I came from seeing her, and then saw my dad, in his 60's, hobbling around on bad knees, which were only bad because he weighed probably 320. And then I looked at myself.

I didn't start lifting because I wanted to look better. If I cared about how I looked, I wouldn't have weighed so much to begin with. I started lifting because I wanted to LIVE better. If I end up spending the last 10 years of my life in a friggin' chair, it won't be because I didn't go down fighting. I realized that we are all on a path, and as time goes on, the ship gets really hard to turn around. And then suddenly it's too late and you can't even stand anymore and there's no going back and doing it right.

For other people, I've seen them decide they want to be able to raise their kids or their grandchildren. Some people just want to be able to take care of themselves. Some people have someone that relies on them and they HAVE to be able to move.

Start with that - what is your reason to workout or diet? Is it something you really want or care about?

Is this reason something you want more than your take out food or your ice cream? Can you see yourself feeling motivated by it almost every day?

Then keep your expectations in check. You aren't going to drop fat overnight. It isn't going to be easy, without any suffering. But if you have a strong enough reason to do it, then a little suffering will not matter. But don't expect to go from 5'8'' and 220# and 30% bodyfat to 5'8'' and 180# ripped in 3 months. That kind of transformation can be a LONG process. I'm not talking days, weeks or months here. I'm talking YEARS.

And then start with the basics. Do your workouts. Weigh your food and log your food. Don't even start off trying to diet. Just weigh everything and log it. Just practice that skill - that ability to be as precise as possible with knowing what you had. If you have a twinkie, fine - put it in the log. At least you will be able to look at the log and say, "This is why I gained weight today and tomorrow I can try again." And slowly, you will develop new habits - but it all starts with having a motivating reason.

Finally, I think you have a little bit of a belief issue here. If I told you tomorrow that you could be jacked in 3 months and have the exact body you want and all you had to do was drink 3 gallons of water every day and workout and you believe me- what would you do? (My guess is that you would start drinking a lot of water every day).

On the other hand, what if you think drinking 3 gallons of water every day sounds like the dumbest thing you've ever heard, and it will be really hard, and it won't work at all and you'll just feel like crap and still be fat and weak and it will be another failure? What would you do then? My guess is - you would avoid doing it like the plague. Why would you go through all that suffering for something that you don't believe will even work!?

I'm not saying 3 gallons of water will be magical - I'm saying belief is GAME CHANGING. You have tons of strategies and you've read and gathered knowledge on a bunch of different things. Yet, you don't stick to any of them or make them work. Why? Do you not believe they will work? Are you just avoiding the pain because you don't believe in the outcome?

Sorry for the rant or pep talk, or whatever this is...
 

ucimigrate

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First off - don't be too disappointed. I understand how it is to have to work to scrape by and your focus isn't on staying healthy. But I'm going to be honest here and tell you something I truly believe - WE ACTUALLY GET WHAT WE WANT IN LIFE.

I mean this. You are overweight because you want to be. You want to have easy meals when you're tired. You want to sleep in. You want to eat whatever is convenient. You want to use excuses to hide your actions. I mean, Covid is really a reason for failure? I can see it made things harder or changed a schedule, but we're talking about NOT DOING something here (eating). No matter how busy you are, it is pretty easy to NOT do something.

Should you feel bad about this? No. It's life. Not everyone has the same values and goals. If you really value that sleep, or those chips or ice cream, or your relaxation while you get take out and watch a movie - then that's what you value and you should recognize that. I do it too. I've done it a lot more than I do it now even. I used to do it almost every night.

So, where to start? How about examining your wants honestly. It doesn't sound like you are willing to give up much to get the body you want - so don't. But maybe you should think about your health.

When I was 33 years old I weighed at least 300 pounds. I don't know because I didn't step on a scale. I honestly didn't give a crap about my weight. I wasn't 300+ because I COULDN'T diet or workout. I actually knew a lot about it. As a 200 pound 12 year old, I lost 60 pounds one summer and came back to school and no one recognized me. As an 18 year old I started up a supplement retail company. I knew enough. I just didn't care.

But for me, that started to change when my 85 year old grandmother began to lose her ability to walk, or even stand from a chair. One day I came from seeing her, and then saw my dad, in his 60's, hobbling around on bad knees, which were only bad because he weighed probably 320. And then I looked at myself.

I didn't start lifting because I wanted to look better. If I cared about how I looked, I wouldn't have weighed so much to begin with. I started lifting because I wanted to LIVE better. If I end up spending the last 10 years of my life in a friggin' chair, it won't be because I didn't go down fighting. I realized that we are all on a path, and as time goes on, the ship gets really hard to turn around. And then suddenly it's too late and you can't even stand anymore and there's no going back and doing it right.

For other people, I've seen them decide they want to be able to raise their kids or their grandchildren. Some people just want to be able to take care of themselves. Some people have someone that relies on them and they HAVE to be able to move.

Start with that - what is your reason to workout or diet? Is it something you really want or care about?

Is this reason something you want more than your take out food or your ice cream? Can you see yourself feeling motivated by it almost every day?

Then keep your expectations in check. You aren't going to drop fat overnight. It isn't going to be easy, without any suffering. But if you have a strong enough reason to do it, then a little suffering will not matter. But don't expect to go from 5'8'' and 220# and 30% bodyfat to 5'8'' and 180# ripped in 3 months. That kind of transformation can be a LONG process. I'm not talking days, weeks or months here. I'm talking YEARS.

And then start with the basics. Do your workouts. Weigh your food and log your food. Don't even start off trying to diet. Just weigh everything and log it. Just practice that skill - that ability to be as precise as possible with knowing what you had. If you have a twinkie, fine - put it in the log. At least you will be able to look at the log and say, "This is why I gained weight today and tomorrow I can try again." And slowly, you will develop new habits - but it all starts with having a motivating reason.

Finally, I think you have a little bit of a belief issue here. If I told you tomorrow that you could be jacked in 3 months and have the exact body you want and all you had to do was drink 3 gallons of water every day and workout and you believe me- what would you do? (My guess is that you would start drinking a lot of water every day).

On the other hand, what if you think drinking 3 gallons of water every day sounds like the dumbest thing you've ever heard, and it will be really hard, and it won't work at all and you'll just feel like crap and still be fat and weak and it will be another failure? What would you do then? My guess is - you would avoid doing it like the plague. Why would you go through all that suffering for something that you don't believe will even work!?

I'm not saying 3 gallons of water will be magical - I'm saying belief is GAME CHANGING. You have tons of strategies and you've read and gathered knowledge on a bunch of different things. Yet, you don't stick to any of them or make them work. Why? Do you not believe they will work? Are you just avoiding the pain because you don't believe in the outcome?

Sorry for the rant or pep talk, or whatever this is...
I appreciate you saying this. It is not a rant at all.

1. I agree that prioritizing is essential. Beyond all these strategies, if something is a priority in life, it makes it easier to accomplish. Whether this is making money, enjoying a good work-life balance, studying at school, making friends, or in this case exercise and fitness.

2. I know, many people talk about logging the calories. I need to start with that.

Some nutritionists I have spoken with say calorie counting makes people hyper-vigilant. But, I can at least start with monitoring my food intake.

3. I think the good news about my situation is that some change is possible.

For one of my friends with Schizophrenia, his medication caused a 200 lb weight gain, and he needs to drink at least a bottle or two of wine or some liquor. His medication, and his resulting alcohol self-medication, would make it impossible to lose weight.

In my case, I did lose a few pounds, when I moved around more, and watched what I ate.

4. Thanks again for thinking about this. I have tried some things, I want to do more.
 

SweetLou321

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Stop looking for optimal and look for sustainable, whatever that means for you. I have science to answer your original questions but its means very little as your are always looking for optimal. If your doing the basics right and wanted to improve then my reply would be different but you don't. Start with what others have said and get a handle on your overall food intake/choices. Eat at consistent meals times that work for your life schedule and focus on lean meats, vegetables, and fruits first. Walk more like you are. Do at homebody weight and band workouts if you can. Get 7-9 hours of sleep per day. Manage your stress, maybe stop reading so much about this stuff. Start simple and make a general layout for when things needs to get more complex that you can try and make your routine for specific as you go along your journey. Most of the smallest details only matter for 1-5% of people to get that last 5-10% of results. Train within 4 reps of failure, train when recovered, move more, eat less on a schedule you can stick too with foods you can stick too, and embrace the process and know you will learn as you go.
 
HIT4ME

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1. I agree that prioritizing is essential. Beyond all these strategies, if something is a priority in life, it makes it easier to accomplish. Whether this is making money, enjoying a good work-life balance, studying at school, making friends, or in this case exercise and fitness.
It isn't about prioritizing alone. You seem to like making lists and detailing even the most mundane things. I do things like this on some level as well - but you have to accept the simple.

It is about actually deciding what you want and WHY you want it. Does your WHY get you out of bed in the morning? If you are working out because you just want to vaguely look better, that may motivate you a little. But if you have a goal that really excites you and moves you, it will pull you toward it. This can take a lot of self reflection to find, and it can change.

2. I know, many people talk about logging the calories. I need to start with that.

Some nutritionists I have spoken with say calorie counting makes people hyper-vigilant. But, I can at least start with monitoring my food intake.
I don't care what people say about being hyper-vigilant. Everyone acts like being worries about the details of what you eat is somehow unhealthy and that under-eating is the major concern for eating disorders. The truth is, OVER eating is a much bigger issue for having an eating disorder and no one ever worries about it. If you are 50 pounds overweight, you have an eating disorder. Avoiding a diet because someone says it is too extreme or unhealthy and will cause an eating disorder can be really foolish for 90% of people.

Knowing what you eat, in detail is not what makes a disorder. Eating less and less to look better on paper is a different story, but there are more people who have overeating disorders than under eating disorders.

You seem to be concerned with optimal - how can you find optimal when you don't even know with certainty what you ate today? If you gained a pound this week and you don't have a log - how do you know where you went wrong? What do you adjust when you don't even have your starting point down and accurate?

Don't obsess...but get a logging app and a scale and make your own meals. If you cannot weigh it, do not put it in your mouth. If you are going to put it in your mouth, put it in the log. It is that easy.

Or, attack it from the other side (since you like to plan) and make a diet plan. Sit down and start working on a diet plan, written down, and figure out the calories, protein, carbs and fat for every food and keep adjusting it until you get a plan you like that will hit your macros. Then just follow the plan (still measuring).

Remember, perfection is the enemy of good.

3. I think the good news about my situation is that some change is possible.

For one of my friends with Schizophrenia, his medication caused a 200 lb weight gain, and he needs to drink at least a bottle or two of wine or some liquor. His medication, and his resulting alcohol self-medication, would make it impossible to lose weight.

In my case, I did lose a few pounds, when I moved around more, and watched what I ate.
Something to always remember in life, when things are bad, that point where they are at the absolute worst and you think, "This cannot get any worse" - it can. Life moves forward and it can always get worse.

But, things can always get better too. And making them better is simple (not easy). Just do a little every day that moves you toward your goal. Consistency is an amazing tool. You don't have to change everything all at once - just change something that is small and that you can stick to. In a month or two that small thing will be a habit, and you can change a little more.


4. Thanks again for thinking about this. I have tried some things, I want to do more.
Stop worrying and just do it. Don't try to be perfect. Try to just be better tomorrow than you are today.
 

ucimigrate

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1. Thanks, guys. I appreciate the support; the info is informative, but not pedantic, etc.

2. I actually snuck into my gym, did some 3X5 squats, bench, chin-ups, and will repeat tomorrow. That also goes for walking again. Already, I can feel some of the muscle and strength get back.

3. I agree that worry about "optimal, optimal" can take away from sustainable. I never thought about that before. I guess I just need to consistently exercise more, since this Coronavirus made consistency exercise much less.
 
Smont

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Eating a protein without adequate carbs or fats generally = muscle loss. I can't see how anyone eating only 800 calories per day could maintain much muscle at all. I honestly didn't read past 800 calories per day mostly from protein and you would lose mostly fat. So if I missed something I might be off topic. But from what I read I saw a unsustainable starvation diet
 
Smont

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For the past week or so I have been eating only 2 meals per day, sometimes 3. Mainly because its been super hot and I've been so busy with work my appetite is off, hungry but dont want to eat. My maintenance is approximately 2400 right now. My breakfast is protein powder, milk, egg and oatmeal, about 800 calories. Work, gym, and my 2nd meal is around 1500 calories. Might be a massive burger, or steak and potatoes with a desert. Is this considered intermittent fasting, 6am and 6PM meal? If so it's not for me. My energy levels are super low and I'm starving all day but because I'm busy and sweating all day I just dont feel like eating. I prefer steady meals every 3-4 hours
 

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I don't have time to read through all this. I will give my advice and will not apologize if someone already said it. I was going to state the below in your previous thread about ketosis but failed. I recognized your username, read the first few sentences, and here we are.

You are suffering from paralysis by analysis or you are not ready to take action. You need to DO. You are wasting time researching alternate methodologies, best theoretical diets, current fads. Researching and questioning any further is only an excuse to not begin improving your life.

Choose one, TODAY, and start TOMORROW. I guarantee you will be better next week than you are today.

You will not FIND the perfect diet or weight loss plan by posting questions or searching for quick fixes. You will learn which one works for you by taking action NOW.

Keep us updated on your progress and we'll gladly educate you on alterations to overcome any obstacles. If you are not ready to start and need help hitting rock bottom sooner rather than later, let us know. What works for me: Visualize/meditate an extrapolation of my life from this moment forward (what would happen weeks, months, years if I did not begin tomorrow).
 

jrock645

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Oddly enough, Brad Schoenfeld just(within the last couple days I think) posted something on IG about the biology of overfeeding. I don’t really care, so I didn’t read it, but if you’re interested in this topic you simply won’t find more credible information than what you can get from that guy.
 

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