Since its 2-step, what hormone is the first step. Wondering if there is a chance of that first hormone aromatizing
I've read the same thing as well many times.I read elsewhere that it's doesn't convert to estrogen at all.
I've read the same thing as well many times.
Check my edit. I added some info while you posted. It seems to indicate that they can be considered an androgen or an estrogen as they can activate both receptors. The links do show that an AI would not be very hepful against these metabolites but they may be helpful to prevent other T to E conversion.These links state that the metabolites themselves are estrogenic, not that they aromatize into estrogen (if I'm reading correctly) that would suggest an AI would be of little use.
Thanks for this thread. I have been procrastinating for some time asking about these metabolites.
Nolva or Ralox seems to be the best bet if staying on cycle. It's certainly what I would do (short of going to a doctor) if having symptoms of over-stimulation of the breast ER.So if they're estrogenic but don't convert, what would be the course of action. I just popped half a pill of Exemstane (12.5mg) and trying to locate some local nolva. I may just drop the epiandro if the AI doesn't work
Good questions. I'd love for someone a lot smarter and more knowledgeable than me to chime in here.Agree an AI will obviously help minimize aromatization of T and others to various estrogens. In terms of these DHT metabolites, what would be fascinating to know is what effects are being elicited when it is binding to the ER. Obviously, most of this research is being done in terms of BC and PC cell stimulation. Is it possible that the metabolites could actually be beneficial in terms of not allowing free E2 from attaching? Meaning, you take enough of this, you have more of these metabolites than free E2, less E2 attached on the ER and thus, a perceived "hardening" effect. Not really because of more DHT (though there would be conceivable more via the second conversion) but rather because E2 has no where to attach? I'm I way off base here??
If it's aching. Nolva, 10mg for 3 days and I bet the ache goes away.I have no clue lol I just want my right nipple to stop aching
The only other thing I'm on is xosterone, and only at 350-450mgi wouldnt worry too much about epiandro causing a rise in e2 levels or causing itching nips...
I defintiely agree with that statement. I hope people don't se this thread and freak out as most people will not have an issue with a prohormone to DHT. I do think that it hammers home why we always tell people to cover their bases and be prepared for anything when playing with hormones. We definitely all react in different ways.i wouldnt worry too much about epiandro causing a rise in e2 levels or causing itching nips...
Here is a chart showing Epiandrosterones pathways. It does not have potential to convert to any precursors of Estrogens or estrogen itself.I defintiely agree with that statement. I hope people don't se this thread and freak out as most people will not have an issue with a prohormone to DHT. I do think that it hammers home why we always tell people to cover their bases and be prepared for anything when playing with hormones. We definitely all react in different ways.
100% correct. Spot on. It is already "5-alpha reduced", it cannot convert or aromatize to Estrogen. And its intermediate metabolites do not convert or aromatize either for this reason. If you are concerned with the diones and diols of this particular compound interacting with the estrogen receptor, I have not seen evidence showing this to be the case, nor do anecdotal reports of EpiAndro use support this.Here is a chart showing Epiandrosterones pathways. It does not have potential to convert to any precursors of Estrogens or estrogen itself.
View attachment 132095
It is a two step conversion to DHT via conversion into A-dione then into DHT
or alternatively
into 3Beta-diol then into DHT
Neither intermediary compounds aromatize.
What brand are you usingBoth netflixNchill and myself have/are having nipple swelling /nipple issues with the Epiandro. I dropped it and after 2 days it completely cleared up. Stayed without it for another day or 2 and then added 1 cap in preworkout and 3-5 hours after my workout, boom, the swelling was back no mistake.
I've seen that graph (<-- including origin link in case anybody is interested) before as well as ones similar to it. It was always my understanding that DHT and it's metabolites could not aromatize nor exert any estrogenic effects or have any interaction with the ER. At the very least, the links and studies I posted indicate that the precursors/metabolites to DHT and Androsterone/Epiandrosterone (3-alpha and beta diol) can both interact with the ER to some degree and that the pathway does exist.Here is a chart showing Epiandrosterones pathways. It does not have potential to convert to any precursors of Estrogens or estrogen itself.
View attachment 132095
It is a two step conversion to DHT via conversion into A-dione then into DHT
or alternatively
into 3Beta-diol then into DHT
Neither intermediary compounds aromatize.
I haven't seen any anecdotal reports of EpiAndro causing issues either (other than in this thread) but I have seen many people run non-aromatizing compounds and even DHT-based compounds and have issues with gyno or pseudo-like gyno symptoms. Aching from over-activation of the ER also seems to happen at times with dry compounds. People just need to be prepared for ALL potential issues and make sure their bases are covered. I also hope kids read this and understand the potential pitfalls of playing with their hormones.100% correct. Spot on. It is already "5-alpha reduced", it cannot convert or aromatize to Estrogen. And its intermediate metabolites do not convert or aromatize either for this reason. If you are concerned with the diones and diols of this particular compound interacting with the estrogen receptor, I have not seen evidence showing this to be the case, nor do anecdotal reports of EpiAndro use support this.
I really hope this doesn't turn into a thread about specific brands. That just means it might eventually get locked or deleted as people get out of hand.What brand are you using
Valid pointI really hope this doesn't turn into a thread about specific brands. That just means it might eventually get locked or deleted as people get out of hand.
Just my two cents.
Both netflixNchill and myself have/are having nipple swelling /nipple issues with the Epiandro. I dropped it and after 2 days it completely cleared up. Stayed without it for another day or 2 and then added 1 cap in preworkout and 3-5 hours after my workout, boom, the swelling was back no mistake.
True but this is not the case for me I was thinking it would do the opposite and harden me up especially the chestYou know stressing out so much about gyno can actually cause you to get gyno...Doesn't matter what you are taking. Don't believe me?. Look it up. Ask a doctor. Psychological problems can actually cause physical symptoms. Not calling you guys nuts or anything, I'm just letting you know that this is possible and I bet it happens more often than people think.
did you find that by emptying the cap into pre workout that the effects were a little stronger during workout?Both netflixNchill and myself have/are having nipple swelling /nipple issues with the Epiandro. I dropped it and after 2 days it completely cleared up. Stayed without it for another day or 2 and then added 1 cap in preworkout and 3-5 hours after my workout, boom, the swelling was back no mistake.
I'm definitely not confusing binding affinity with receptor interaction; I do understand the difference. Receptor interaction also has a lot to do with hormone binding location on/in the cell.Toren you are confusing binding affinity (strength it binds with) with receptor interaction (signals being sent by compound)
Ideally serms like nolva bind with but have no interaction ( no communication) with the er.
The studies you posted ( I didn't read them all, first two an last one) that I read show the metabolite in question binds strongly with the er, but interaction is little to none.
It's the interaction with the estrogen receptor or progestin receptor that matter, when thinking of this subject.
Also, if it has 5a in the structure, it can not aromatize.
Well said! I couldn't agree more.I think the term you're looking for is Intrinsic Activity. The higher the IA of a SERM, the more estrogenic the effects. Additionally, we have to remember the S in SERM. Both Tamoxifen and Raloxifene elicit an estrogenic effect in bone cells for example.
So what does all this have to do with the metabolites of EpiAndro? IMO, it means these guys are more complex than they're being marketed as. I think we may collectively be guilty of over simplifying the MOA. The very fact that BC and PC researchers are delving into trying to better understand what these guys are doing should clue us in to the complexity. I'm NOT saying EpiAndro is bad. It may turn out that they indeed have a "SERM like" effect in addition to some DHT conversion. But I, for one thought the AM family was about delving into the complex things as a collective...otherwise I could just go read FLEX... ;-)
All kidding aside, I realize that EpiAndro is one of the last legal PHs left, many guys anecdotally love it, and several companies have a financial interest in its continued popularity. All these things can still be true but wouldn't you like to know what it REALLY (or better, what it fully) does rather than "it's a two step conversion to DHT that cannot aromatize" ? If we don't know, we don't know but let's not be to quick to be dismissive.
I agree completely on your last three points. I made sure to mention all three in various posts in this thread. I'm definitely not bashing Epiandrosterone at all. I stumbled across some interesting info, and coupled with some stuff I read years ago and plenty of new information I was unaware of, I though it was a pretty intersting topic.Efficacy, intrinsic activity, interaction, no matter how you dress up a pig, it's still a pig.
Most users are happy with epiandro. I've only ran androsterone, but it didn't do anything for me.
Take home from this is results are user dependent an messing with your hormones can bring unwanted side effects.
Aromatizable or not, estrogenic sides are always a possibility.
I see anti estro effects with myself and my clients with Randro and Epiandro. People who have gyno, or pegyno see shrinking of accumulations while on these products.
Of course we know that Nolva is the best option since it is a breast cancer drug that targets breast tissue at the cellular level..
With that being said, epiandro and androsterone are amazing DHT compounds. My personal favorites.