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Vitamin K2-M4 for increased Testosterone (IME better than TA/ZMA/Boron etc.?)

alwaysfirst said:
What do you think about a mix of the 2, pointless or better?
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This is from the Editor's Thoughts on examine.com:
I'm really liking vitamin K, and would recommend that it be taken unless there is an obvious reason not to (ie. you are on Warfarin). I see nothing wrong with just taking 500mcg of both phylloquinone (vitamin K1) and MK-7, since MK-7 seems to be the most common long chain quinone (and better than MK-4 at the same stuff) but may not convert into phylloquinone or MK-4, so the additional phylloquinone covers your bases for any possible unforeseen things that MK-7 may not be able to cover.
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Woody said:
So MK7>MK4 or did I read that wrong?
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I haven't really read it through recently. I remember seeing something about them recommending both, and just posted it up. I'll read through it, as well as that page in general and report back. :)

Edit: Interesting excerpts from their page on Vitamin K (bold added by me for emphasis):
For its unique properties, MK-4 appears to induce differentiation of leukemic cells (a property useful in differentiation therapy[128]) potently at 1µM, which is not observed with phylloquinone.[129] It has been speculated[130][131] that MK-4 has a direct action independent of the vitamin K cycle either through proteins (direct binding rather than carboxylation) or acting upon a receptor. There are also differences in transportation and distribution between menaquinones and phylloquinone (elaborated on in the pharmacology section), which can be summed up with menaquinones being better partitioned to the periphery and not the liver, and MK-4 appears to have a unique role on osteoclasts that is not seen with phylloquinone or MK-7 (and perhaps underlies why superloading of MK-4 is used rather than other menaquinone sources).

MK-4 (Menatetrenone) does not appear to increase the amount of active vitamin K in the body, although still appears to be active in carboxylating proteins. It requires higher dosages than phylloquinone, and although 45mg (a very high pharmacological dose) is used it is possible that 1,500mcg is also effective. MK-4 may have a unique role on inducing bone growth that is not seen with phylloquinone or MK-7
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When comparing MK-7 against MK-4, the efficacy of long chain menaquinones such as MK-7 on blood clotting seem to exceed that of phylloquinone and MK-4[132][135][136], which is thought to be due to the prolonged half-life relative to other forms of Vitamin K.
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Justlooking5 said:
Lacks relevance to what? Not your claim that
The study doesn't address testosterone, but it does suggest evidence for physiological effects from oral MK-4 (meaning it's bioavailable enough to have an effect).
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420mcg... MICROGRAMS. We're taking 15mgs a day.. HUGE difference. Pretty sure 420mcgs of most vitamins is less than sufficient.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I haven't really read it through recently. I remember seeing something about them recommending both, and just posted it up. I'll read through it, as well as that page in general and report back. :)

Edit: Interesting excerpts from their page on Vitamin K (bold added by me for emphasis):

When comparing MK-7 against MK-4, the efficacy of long chain menaquinones such as MK-7 on blood clotting seem to exceed that of phylloquinone and MK-4[132][135][136], which is thought to be due to the prolonged half-life relative to other forms of Vitamin K.
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Interesting info about bone growth from MK4. I haven't noticed anything yet, but I will keep paying attention.

The real question is whether MK7 increases test the way MK4 does in rats.
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Justlooking5 said:
muscleupcrohn said:
I haven't really read it through recently. I remember seeing something about them recommending both, and just posted it up. I'll read through it, as well as that page in general and report back. :)

Edit: Interesting excerpts from their page on Vitamin K (bold added by me for emphasis):




Interesting info about bone growth from MK4. I haven't noticed anything yet, but I will keep paying attention.

The real question is whether MK7 increases test the way MK4 does in rats.
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Yeah, the dose that was used in the rat studies was far more than the dose(s) that people use. With that said, it's possible that it still does something, as lower doses have been shown to do something in various aspects, and it may be able to do some things that MK-7 can't. Is increasing testosterone one? I don't know. Perhaps it can at reasonable doses, perhaps MK-7 can as well. Perhaps MK-4 is better than MK-7 here. I really don't know. Has anyone seen any studies regarding Vitamin K and testosterone in humans? It appears that most research (basically everything I've seen) regarding Vitamin K and testosterone used MK-4 though.

Here's some info from a rat study:
The mRNA levels of Cyp11a - a rate-limiting enzyme in testosterone synthesis - positively correlated with the menaquinone-4 (MK-4) concentration in the testis. Moreover, as compared to the control (Cont) and K-supplemented (K-sup) groups, the K-def group had decreased testosterone concentrations in the plasma and testis. These results suggested that K is involved in steroid production in the testis through the regulation of Cyp11a.
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Well after about a week on 15mg/day I have noticed that my face does seem to be getting a bit of that "moonface" effect. I'm not sure if this is due to bone growth (which I still find kind of implausible - I mean enough bone growth to change your facial features on 5-15mg in a couple weeks?) or due to some other effect, like perhaps increased test, which also causes face bloating.

See this before/after comparison from a guy on TRT. This is kind of what the effect seems like to me (notice cheekbones visible/"delicate" in first pic vs. 1 yr pic): Invalid Link Removed

That said, I'm going to go back to 5mg for a few days at least to see if the bloat decreases and make sure this stuff isn't actually affecting the bones in my face, which again, I'd be surprised by but since K2 is involved in bone growth you never know. Some guy on that first thread I linked in my first post said that 30mg K2 has been shown to affect jaw shape in Japan. Another possibility is that it could cause BOTH face bloating from increased test as well as some bone growth.
 
Also, incidentally, the TRT photo is interesting because it shows that even at TRT doses of testosterone (one would assume the guy is likely still in normal physiological range w/ TRT), the increase can have a pretty dramatic effect on facial shape, which to me simply looks like more "bulk" (muscle/water) on the guy pictured above.
 
Well, I thought I would bump this since I did get bloodwork recently.

When I wrote this thread I was taking 5-10mg+ of the MK-4 formulation, which is a fairly high dose. I did feel better on it as mentioned.

Prior to getting bloodwork this March, I was taking a multivitamin which INCLUDED 100mcg of MK4+MK7 blend per day. I was taking the multi most days. I was not taking any other K2 but the 100mcg included in the multivitamin.

My bloodwork came back at 369 ng/dl for total testosterone, which is crappy and a lower level than I have ever tested at previously. I have no idea if I would have gotten better results with a higher dose of only K2-MK4 (as the dose I was taking when I made this thread was about 10x the multi dose), however, I think it is reasonable to say that at least in my case, taking 100mcg of K2 in a multi formulation did not meaningfully affect my testosterone levels.

I know some people feel that eating grass fed butter etc for the K2 may help their test levels. Note though, I have AAS induced hypogonadism so I may not respond the way others would as vitamin D etc. doesn't seem to boost my test either.
 
Thanks for posting an update. i too have tried K2 and ran bloodwork. As with other test boosters no test increase of any significance observed. Levels remained at my constant baseline which is the lower end of the test scale. I am hypogonodal too although not AAS induced. TBH i suspect K2/ along with 98% of test boosters, just doesnt work period. By way of comparison virtually everyone responds to Clomid testwise regardless of any underlying conditions
 
ucheoma said:
Thanks for posting an update. i too have tried K2 and ran bloodwork. As with other test boosters no test increase of any significance observed. Levels remained at my constant baseline which is the lower end of the test scale. I am hypogonodal too although not AAS induced. TBH i suspect K2/ along with 98% of test boosters, just doesnt work period. By way of comparison virtually everyone responds to Clomid testwise regardless of any underlying conditions
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That may be true with the clomid but for a lot of people the sides are not worth the increase in T
 
I been using this:

h**p://catalog.designsforhealth.com/Emulsi-D3-Synergy-2oz-liquid

Its best to mix K2 with D3
 
mcc23 said:
That may be true with the clomid but for a lot of people the sides are not worth the increase in T
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I personally have not noted any sides and think what sides there may be very overstated and as a proportion of users very low. Clomid has an excellent safety profile. If you follow a sensible protocol, risks of sides are extremely low. i dose 12.5 eod

Value for money and effectiveness wise no comparison, Beats all and any 'testboosters' hands down in my experience. But hey, this is a supp thread after all ..so let's indulge ourselves a bit that there may be some decent natty alternatives! I did it for years, Lets not forget however all that people also report sides on natty testboosters eg forskolin
 
00A said:
I been using this:

h**p://catalog.designsforhealth.com/Emulsi-D3-Synergy-2oz-liquid

Its best to mix K2 with D3
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i take D3 on a daily basis for its wider health benefits and coingested with K2. Are you speculating or do you have bloodwork that indicates this combo worked for you to increase your test? Sure did zilch for me test-wise.
 
ucheoma said:
i take D3 on a daily basis for its wider health benefits and coingested with K2. Are you speculating or do you have bloodwork that indicates this combo worked for you to increase your test? Sure did zilch for me test-wise.
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Im taking this with Kings Blood, once I finish bottle Kings Blood will do Blood work
 
Good post OP. Based on the studies, I will probably be picking up some K2-MK4 up to try as well. Will be getting the Carlson brand as it is one of 2 brands available at the store where I shop for my general health staples.
 
hsk said:
Good post OP. Based on the studies, I will probably be picking up some K2-MK4 up to try as well. Will be getting the Carlson brand as it is one of 2 brands available at the store where I shop for my general health staples.
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Did you read OPs recent update relating to bloodwork and mine? If it's test boosting you're after dont waste your money. if its joint / arthritis related don't waste your money either, Studies very rarely consistently translate to real-world improvements in the supp world except in few cases eg creatine and protein
 
ucheoma said:
Did you read OPs recent update relating to bloodwork and mine? If it's test boosting you're after dont waste your money. if its joint / arthritis related don't waste your money either, Studies very rarely consistently translate to real-world improvements in the supp world except in few cases eg creatine and protein
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Interested in this for general health/wellness, bone building and helping to increase Vit D absorption as I don't get much sun and test low for vit D.
 
Currently I am also on clomid prescribed by my urologist due to low test and I can say nothing OTC I've used seems to come close in terms of increasing test levels (not too surprising). I'll be taking clomid or TRT from now on due to hypogonadism.
 
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