Unanswered virgin receptors

[Joshinator]

Got a question for you experts.

The term "virgin receptors" refers to how a person who has never used steroids can pack on tons of muscle on their first cycle. Then the dose has to be increased from there on out.

Those of you who have cycled heavy, do you notice your ability to build muscle at normal test levels diminishes?

and question two, did you notice that after years off the juice your body required less steroids than usual?

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

for me they have never refreshed like you speculate.. and it does get harder to build muscle though I think that has more to do with genetic limitations and age.

 

[Renew1]

so i actually asked a member this the other day ... my question revolved around the term "dirty receptors" or letting receptors "clean" after a few runs ...

what does this really mean? or maybe i should ask what it means to each individual / how its perceived. are you just taking time off to let your body normalize a bit or are you actually allowing androgen receptors to "unbind" and free up ?

Hopefully Ripper will reply in a bit...

Have you ever used drugs? Your body can build a tolerance to them, and it can take more to achieve the same results.
The same with steroids.
If you take time off from the steroids (or drugs), your body can lose some of the tolerance it had built up. But the more you do over time, the harder it can be to get rid of the tolerance (IMO).

 

[Old Witch]

Hopefully Ripper will reply in a bit...

Have you ever used drugs? Your body can build a tolerance to them, and it can take more to achieve the same results.
The same with steroids.
If you take time off from the steroids (or drugs), your body can lose some of the tolerance it had built up. But the more you do over time, the harder it can be to get rid of the tolerance (IMO).

This is pretty much dead-on accurate from my perspective.

 

[Jeremyk1]

for me they have never refreshed like you speculate.. and it does get harder to build muscle though I think that has more to do with genetic limitations and age.

I agree with this. Androgen receptors don’t get clogged up like a lot of people think. The issue is that muscle tissue is difficult to build and maintain. It’s like when people start to work out, they gain really fast. More experienced lifters gain more slowly. Is that because they’re running out of mTOR? (Or whatever other anabolic signals are involved) I did some reading on this a while back, and one article I read said there’s even evidence that increased circulating androgens can potentially increase androgen receptor density. So it’s possible most people have that backward. Given a certain dose of gear, a person would build mass, and eventually stop gaining with the same dose. If receptors were clogging up, you’d lose all of your gains even if you maintained or even increased your doses, but that just isn’t the case.

 

[Joshinator]

I agree with this. Androgen receptors don’t get clogged up like a lot of people think. The issue is that muscle tissue is difficult to build and maintain. It’s like when people start to work out, they gain really fast. More experienced lifters gain more slowly. Is that because they’re running out of mTOR? (Or whatever other anabolic signals are involved) I did some reading on this a while back, and one article I read said there’s even evidence that increased circulating androgens can potentially increase androgen receptor density. So it’s possible most people have that backward. Given a certain dose of gear, a person would build mass, and eventually stop gaining with the same dose. If receptors were clogging up, you’d lose all of your gains even if you maintained or even increased your doses, but that just isn’t the case.

Totally agree, i think the "clogged receptor" idea is swing and a miss. I think the reason experienced lifters gain more slowly is because they are closer to, or past their genetic limit.

 

[Joshinator]

Hopefully Ripper will reply in a bit...

Have you ever used drugs? Your body can build a tolerance to them, and it can take more to achieve the same results.
The same with steroids.
If you take time off from the steroids (or drugs), your body can lose some of the tolerance it had built up. But the more you do over time, the harder it can be to get rid of the tolerance (IMO).

Awesome insight! i was wondering if this was the case. Thank you @xR1pp3Rx for your input.

So the question that stands now is, how does our bodies respond to a natural level of testosterone after cycling? If my body becomes more tolerant to unnaturally high levels of hormones, woudnt it be tolerant of normal levels too?

 

[Jeremyk1]

So the question that stands now is, how does our bodies respond to a natural level of testosterone after cycling? If my body becomes more tolerant to unnaturally high levels of hormones, woudnt it be tolerant of normal levels too?

I hadn’t even thought of that. Good point though. If you lost sensitivity in androgen receptors, there wouldn’t be any point to a PCT. In fact, in that case, skipping PCT would even be better, because you would want to bottom out testosterone to “resensitize”.

 

[Joshinator]

I hadn’t even thought of that. Good point though. If you lost sensitivity in androgen receptors, there wouldn’t be any point to a PCT. In fact, in that case, skipping PCT would even be better, because you would want to bottom out testosterone to “resensitize”.

You have a good point in theory, but the point of cycling is to gain muscle. Why gain no muscle and shut down natural production? People pct so they can keep their gains and restore hpta. I do see a value in maintaining lower levels of test post cycle, but is it really worth it?


Which leads me back to the question at hand, are our bodies more tolerant to out natural testosterone levels post cycle?

 

[Renew1]

I hadn’t even thought of that. Good point though. If you lost sensitivity in androgen receptors, there wouldn’t be any point to a PCT. In fact, in that case, skipping PCT would even be better, because you would want to bottom out testosterone to “resensitize”.

That's part of the point of PCT. "Bottom out" hormones (natural and exogenous) to restart HPTA, while also giving your body a chance to get used to lower levels again (hopefully regaining some sensitivity). These are some of the reasons we PCT.

 

[Renew1]

Awesome insight! i was wondering if this was the case. Thank you @xR1pp3Rx for your input.

So the question that stands now is, how does our bodies respond to a natural level of testosterone after cycling? If my body becomes more tolerant to unnaturally high levels of hormones, woudnt it be tolerant of normal levels too?

You're welcome.

 

[Alchemist11]

Just a interesting detail about this topic, L-Carnitine can help to 'free up' more androgen receptors, at higher rate, for us who use aas.

 

[Jeremyk1]

Which leads me back to the question at hand, are our bodies more tolerant to out natural testosterone levels post cycle?

Sorry, I didn’t make my point clear. You aren’t going to lose sensitivity to androgens. You do want to do a PCT to restore testosterone production, as it will help maintain gains and help other body functions (libido, etc.).

My previous post was sarcastic. If you build tolerance to androgens, why would anyone bother with PCT? It wouldn’t have a point, as restoring testosterone wouldn’t do anything because your body won’t have any sensitivity to it. I think we all know that isn’t the case.

 

[Jeremyk1]

That's part of the point of PCT. "Bottom out" hormones (natural and exogenous) to restart HPTA, while also giving your body a chance to get used to lower levels again (hopefully regaining some sensitivity). These are some of the reasons we PCT.

So why do people on TRT maintain their TRT protocols? Why do some people blast and cruise? By your logic, injecting physiological doses of test (or even supraphysiological) would do nothing.

 

[Renew1]

So why do people on TRT maintain their TRT protocols? Why do some people blast and cruise? By your logic, injecting physiological doses of test (or even supraphysiological) would do nothing.

Nope.
If I had meant that, that's what I would've said.

Guys on TRT don't PCT because they will never regain their natural Test production. ... Like I said... One of the main purposes of PCT.

 

[Renew1]

Sorry, I didn’t make my point clear. You aren’t going to lose sensitivity to androgens. You do want to do a PCT to restore testosterone production, as it will help maintain gains and help other body functions (libido, etc.).

My previous post was sarcastic. If you build tolerance to androgens, why would anyone bother with PCT? It wouldn’t have a point, as restoring testosterone wouldn’t do anything because your body won’t have any sensitivity to it. I think we all know that isn’t the case.

If receptors in the human body couldn't become desinsitized (build tolerence), why would guys get higher after taking a break from drugs, and restarting? But they do.

However, some long term users (or abusers) of drugs can tell you that they also build up a longer term, more permanent tolerance that is not as easy to get rid of (if possible at all, in some cases).

And yet, they take drugs anyway... Because drugs still work. Just not as efficiently as they once did in their bodies.

 

[Jeremyk1]

Nope.
If I had meant that, that's what I would've said.

Guys on TRT don't PCT because they will never regain their natural Test production. ... Like I said... One of tge main purposes of PCT.

Sorry, but do you remember what you wrote? You said “hopefully regain some sensitivity”. That’s not part of it. I am fully aware PCT is used to restore natural HPTA function, but you’re claiming androgen receptors lose sensitivity. Again, if this were true, PCTs or cruises would be useless as your body wouldn’t utilize the testosterone anyway.

 

[Jeremyk1]

If receptors in the human body couldn't become desinsitized (build tolerence), why would guys get higher after taking a break from drugs, and restarting? But they do.

However, some long term users (or abusers) of drugs can tell you that they also build up a longer term, more permanent tolerance that is not as easy to get rid of (if possible at all, in some cases).

And yet, they take drugs anyway... Because drugs still work. Just not as efficiently as tgey once did in their bodies.

I’ve only been talking about androgen receptors. If you’re gonna start comparing steroids to crack, I’m out of here.

 

[Renew1]

I’ve only been talking about androgen receptors. If you’re gonna start comparing steroids to crack, I’m out of here.

I'm sorry, we were discussing receptors in the human body. If this is above your comprehension, please feel free to depart...

 

[Renew1]

LOL.

I stand by everything I wrote here.

 

[Renew1]

how does this work, exactly?

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Mathb33]

To me this is mostly all a myth and it’s simply the fact that someone who uses roids for the first time is obviously gonna gain more than someone who’s at his 8th cycle and already packed 30 lbs of muscle over his genetic. Nothing to do with receptors this is just logic lol

 

[Old Witch]

It’s a simple idea. Drugs build a tolerance. All drugs except a select very few.

Drug tolerance can go up or down depending on if you’re using heavily or taking a break.

Lifelong drug abuse makes it harder for the tolerance to return to baseline, also might make it easier for tolerance to go back up after it has returned to baseline.

Lifelong drug abuse might make one MORE sensitive than baseline tolerance after a significant break. (Alcoholics might take a sip after 10years sober and get hammered)

And yes, this is because of receptor sensitivity. It doesn’t matter if the drug is a sex hormone or a sympathomimetic amine.

 

[Joshinator]

Sorry, I didn’t make my point clear. You aren’t going to lose sensitivity to androgens. You do want to do a PCT to restore testosterone production, as it will help maintain gains and help other body functions (libido, etc.).

I think a good question to ask the elders here is-- If after using steroids for years, have you ever "let your self go? and if you did, did you use PH/AAS again and still notice that you had to take more than in the past at the same lean weight?

So to explain, if you were 6'3 300lbs of solid muscle from PH/AAS use then you stopped going to the gym and lost 150lbs. So say you woke up one day at a lean 150lbs and decided you waned to bulk to 300lbs again, would you experience a "tolerance" to PH/AAS? would they be as effective as the first time bulking to 300?

If the answer is "yes they would be less effective the second time around bulking to 300" then i think its clear that "desensitization" does occur. Lets not speculate the function of "desensitization", just wether or not it occurs.

 

[Joshinator]

It’s a simple idea. Drugs build a tolerance. All drugs except a select very few.

Drug tolerance can go up or down depending on if you’re using heavily or taking a break.

Lifelong drug abuse makes it harder for the tolerance to return to baseline, also might make it easier for tolerance to go back up after it has returned to baseline.

Lifelong drug abuse might make one MORE sensitive than baseline tolerance after a significant break. (Alcoholics might take a sip after 10years sober and get hammered)

And yes, this is because of receptor sensitivity. It doesn’t matter if the drug is a sex hormone or a sympathomimetic amine.

Good stuff

 

[Jeremyk1]

And yes, this is because of receptor sensitivity. It doesn’t matter if the drug is a sex hormone or a sympathomimetic amine.

All Renew was able to do was dodge my questions, so I’m gonna see if I can get an answer out of you.

If someone does a cycle, they build tolerance to androgens. After his cycle, he takes a SERM to help his recovery. The SERM would likely lower his IGF-1, but increase his testosterone. However, his body is now resistant to testosterone. Wouldn’t PCT actually destroy all his gains? IGF is down and test can’t do anything, right?

Also, if we need to regain sensitivity, wouldn’t it be smarter to take your natural testosterone as low as possible? So, skipping PCT would be smarter for this reason also. If you bounce back too fast, you’ll never let your androgen receptors regain sensitivity.

Finally, what about people who blast and cruise? After one blast, they go to a cruise dose of test. Their androgen receptors have built a tolerance, so their cruise would 1) be ineffective, and 2) their next blast wouldn’t do anything because their androgen receptors never resensitized. How do these people still gain?

 

[Renew1]

All Renew was able to do was dodge my questions, so I’m gonna see if I can get an answer out of you.

If someone does a cycle, they build tolerance to androgens. After his cycle, he takes a SERM to help his recovery. The SERM would likely lower his IGF-1, but increase his testosterone. However, his body is now resistant to testosterone. Wouldn’t PCT actually destroy all his gains? IGF is down and test can’t do anything, right?

Also, if we need to regain sensitivity, wouldn’t it be smarter to take your natural testosterone as low as possible? So, skipping PCT would be smarter for this reason also. If you bounce back too fast, you’ll never let your androgen receptors regain sensitivity.

Finally, what about people who blast and cruise? After one blast, they go to a cruise dose of test. Their androgen receptors have built a tolerance, so their cruise would 1) be ineffective, and 2) their next blast wouldn’t do anything because their androgen receptors never resensitized. How do these people still gain?

You staryed crying and left! LOL.

Nice try. Anyone can read what we wrote above. ^^^

 

[Lowkii]

There's alot of bro-science in this thread and people who don't understand the human body talking like they do. All this this **** about Androgen receptor sensitivity, saturation or downregulation is complete bullshit. The body will always be stimulated to produce more receptors to increase efficiency. Running gear will increase the amount of receptors that the cells will produce. However, there are genetic limitations to the amount of receptors that your body can produce. Downregulation does not happen and the evidence for that is top tier bodybuilders who are using massive dosages of steroids constantly to grow bigger or maintain their size. If down-regulation does really occur then these bodybuilders will not be able to maintain their size without increasing their dosages to a super-natural level (for example, 10 grams of gear per week and more).

 

[Jeremyk1]

There's alot of bro-science in this thread and people who don't understand the human body talking like they do. All this this **** about Androgen receptor sensitivity, saturation or downregulation is complete bullshit. The body will always be stimulated to produce more receptors to increase efficiency. Running gear will increase the amount of receptors that the cells will produce. However, there are genetic limitations to the amount of receptors that your body can produce. Downregulation does not happen and the evidence for that is top tier bodybuilders who are using massive dosages of steroids constantly to grow bigger or maintain their size. If down-regulation does really occur then these bodybuilders will not be able to maintain their size without increasing their dosages to a super-natural level (for example, 10 grams of gear per week and more).

Good luck trying to convince Renew.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

There's alot of bro-science in this thread and people who don't understand the human body talking like they do. All this this **** about Androgen receptor sensitivity, saturation or downregulation is complete bullshit. The body will always be stimulated to produce more receptors to increase efficiency. Running gear will increase the amount of receptors that the cells will produce. However, there are genetic limitations to the amount of receptors that your body can produce. Downregulation does not happen and the evidence for that is top tier bodybuilders who are using massive dosages of steroids constantly to grow bigger or maintain their size. If down-regulation does really occur then these bodybuilders will not be able to maintain their size without increasing their dosages to a super-natural level (for example, 10 grams of gear per week and more).

you sir are not taking itno account that those very body builders you speak of are not just using AAS.

 

[Jeremyk1]

you sir are not taking itno account that those very body builders you speak of are not just using AAS.

I’m not sure what your point is. Are they taking something that sensitizes androgen receptors? Or is the “other stuff” what’s giving gains? If that’s the case, why are they still on gear if it isn’t contributing?

 

[Old Witch]

Clomid sensitizes androgen receptors. That’s (one of) the (many) point(s).

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

I’m not sure what your point is. Are they taking something that sensitizes androgen receptors? Or is the “other stuff” what’s giving gains? If that’s the case, why are they still on gear if it isn’t contributing?

Did i say the AAS wasnt contributing? no. My point is, the elite bbers use insulin, GH, 2,4,d Igf-1, peptides, ect which is what takes them 10x further than AAS alone.. why do think all the bro at the gym aren't as big as elite BBrs?? because the AAS are only 1 of the tools in teh box.

 

[Jeremyk1]

Clomid sensitizes androgen receptors. That’s (one of) the (many) point(s).

I haven’t heard that before. Do you know the mechanism behind that?

So if that’s the whole secret, is everyone just taking clomid constantly so they don’t build tolerance to their gear?

 

[Old Witch]

I haven’t heard that before. Do you know the mechanism behind that?

So if that’s the whole secret, is everyone just taking clomid constantly so they don’t build tolerance to their gear?

Well waaaaaay back in the day taking clomid and proviron on cycle was what you did instead of using an AI...

Anyway, clomid is an artificial estrogen. One effect of estrogen is to sensitize or resensitize androgen receptors. This happens in both the brain and body. And happens in the body via the brain, if that makes sense. The action of estrogen in the brain, as clomid reproduces and modulates, will cause androgen receptors to become more receptive. More sensitive. This effect of estrogen is also why women hyper respond to steroids.

The modulated effect of clomid versus estrogen is that instead of causing a negative feedback for testosterone production as a true estrogen, it is an antiestrogen causing the exact opposite feedback. Yet it still retains function as estrogen IE it binds to estrogen receptors in the brain and still promotes most of their normal non-sex/gender specific bodily functions.


One could argue, probably correctly, that the tolerance building effect of the one drug (steroids) is more powerful than the tolerance lessening effect of the other (clomid)

 

[Jeremyk1]

Yeah I’ve seen research showing estrogen can increase androgen receptor expression.

I assume you know, but didn’t explicitly state, so I figured I’d briefly expand for anyone reading. Clomid is an estrogen. In certain tissues, it acts as such with reasonable potency (as Old Witch talked about) but acts with very weak potency in the hypothalamus, despite high binding affinity. High binding means it can block or even displace real estrogen, and because it’s weak, it leads to a net decrease in estrogenic effects.

Anyway, after I had asked, I thought about it’s estrogenic effects and that’s probably where that comes from. But thank you for the clarification anyway.

That said, I’ve seen evidence showing androgen administration can also upregulate androgen receptor expression. Why do you think the body loses sensitivity?

 

[Old Witch]

Yeah I’ve seen research showing estrogen can increase androgen receptor expression.

I assume you know, but didn’t explicitly state, so I figured I’d briefly expand for anyone reading. Clomid is an estrogen. In certain tissues, it acts as such with reasonable potency (as Old Witch talked about) but acts with very weak potency in the hypothalamus, despite high binding affinity. High binding means it can block or even displace real estrogen, and because it’s weak, it leads to a net decrease in estrogenic effects.

Anyway, after I had asked, I thought about it’s estrogenic effects and that’s probably where that comes from. But thank you for the clarification anyway.

That said, I’ve seen evidence showing androgen administration can also upregulate androgen receptor expression. Why do you think the body loses sensitivity?

Overstimulation.

 

[Renew1]

Overstimulation.

Yep.