Using Enclomiphene concurrently with AAS?

[mumbledore]

Hello! I have been seeing reports and anecdotes on the increasingly popular protocol of running Enclo (PCT drug) concurrently with the main agent of a sarms cycle (for example LGD). Users report (and some even provide bloodwork) that the addition of enclo to a sarm cycle prevents a large amount of suppression and makes the overall cycle and recovery better. Now, LGD is by no means on the level of an actual AAS, but in regards to other sarms it is highly suppressive. So the fact Enclo is able to preserve the HPA in the presence of these drugs is fascinating. I am not Jimmy Neutron, so my understanding may be flawed, but Enclo does this by "tricking" the HPA into thinking there is too much estrogen and causing it to release hormones that tell the testicles to produce more testosterone (potential preventing testicular atrophy as well as keeping them stimulated?). I understand that steroids, like dbol or maybe even test itself, are much more potent and suppressive than LGD. However, I have seen some very obscure reddit posts reporting that a combination of dbol and enclo produces noticeably less suppression sides than dbol solo. I made a reddit thread about this and received a few replies saying that this protocol has worked perfectly for some of their cycles. One individual said that they did 3 cycles of 20mg of Tbol and enclo, enclo was able to maintain precycle test levels in all 3 cycles (one of these times, levels were even elevated beyond precycle levels). However, the thread was deleted by the mod for who the hell knows why, so I would like to continue my investigation here. Whether or not dbol specifically needs a test base is irrelevant to the fact that Enclo seems to be able to prevent complete shutdown, according some anecdote (shutdown is more difficult to recover from than just suppression) as well as its application to other oral or suppressive agents. I am not inquiring if Enclo can be used as a "test base" or a replacement to testosterone, but I am wondering if enclo has the potential to PREVENT shutdown in the first place as opposed to offsetting it as exo test would. I have been told that enclo has been prescribed at some TRT clinics in place of HCG. Now, these reports are very obscure and are not backed up by bloodwork which is why I would like to discuss the topic further here. Have any of you tried a similar cycle? Or perhaps if you understand the science better than I, do you see a flaw in the theorized mechanism of action??

 

[BBiceps]

Not this again…

 

[mumbledore]

Not this again…

Has this happened before? I searched enclo and I couldn't find a lot of threads about this.

 

[BBiceps]

It was just talked about and it still won’t work, how do I know? My Test was 41 in the 7th week of Anavar and Clomid. To add to this, my normal Test used to be in the 500’s and on Clomid only my Test was 900-1100, Anavar completely drained it.

Also, Clomid is used as a TRT option, HCG is not and most importantly don’t get info from Reddit.

 

[mumbledore]

It was just talked about and it still won’t work, how do I know? My Test was 41 in the 7th week of Anavar and Clomid. To add to this, my normal Test used to be in the 500’s and on Clomid only my Test was 900-1100, Anavar completely drained it.

Also, Clomid is used as a TRT option, HCG is not and most importantly don’t get info from Reddit.

Clomid is a different drug than enclo. People only really advocate for enclo on cycle and PCT, whereas clomid is only for PCT. Not every SERM with do, I am talking about enclo specifically. Clomid also has worse side effects, so I would try enclo instead if youre able to find some. It is however harder to find than clomid!

 

[KvanH]

Clomid is a different drug than enclo. People only really advocate for enclo on cycle and PCT, whereas clomid is only for PCT. Not every SERM with do, I am talking about enclo specifically. Clomid also has worse side effects, so I would try enclo instead if youre able to find some. It is however harder to find than clomid!

Clomiphene consist of 68% Enclomiphene and 32% Zuclomiphene. The Zuclomiphene is what usually brings the sides, yes. But consisting of 2/3 of Enclomiphene, Clomid should work the same.

MA Research is coming out with Enclomiphene product 'soon'. If I'm not mistaken, the raws are under testing at the moment.

Like BBiceps said, Enclo is not used in place of HCG. They're different kind of drugs. Also just FYI, in case that wasn't a writing mistake by you, SERMs do not trick the brain to think there is too much estrogen. It does the opposite and binds to the estrogen receptors, making it seem to the HPTA feed back loop, that there's no/very little estrogen in the body and thus making the brain singal the testes to produce more test, that can then be aromatized to estrogen.

From the little what I've seen, It seems that a SERM + SARM can work ok for some, but doesn't for everybody and I don't think I've seen a successful trial with SERM + AAS. Also I think the doses for some of the successful SERM + SARM cycles have been something silly, like 5-10 mg of LGD.

All that said, I'm curious and if you decide to try it, I hope you'll check bloodwork and post them here. I mean I do want it to work, lol. If I can get a hold of Enclo myself, I might try it with LGD some day, just for science. LGD would be dosed around 20-30 mg to make the run worthwile.

 

[mumbledore]

It was just talked about and it still won’t work, how do I know? My Test was 41 in the 7th week of Anavar and Clomid. To add to this, my normal Test used to be in the 500’s and on Clomid only my Test was 900-1100, Anavar completely drained it.

Also, Clomid is used as a TRT option, HCG is not and most importantly don’t get info from Reddit.

Hey again, I did a little bit of research into clomid and I think I can explain why that happened. Clomid is a mixture of 38% zuclomifene and 62% enclomifene. So "enclo" is essentially clomid with the zuclomifene removed. Zuclo and Enclo differ in the regard that Zulco is estrogenic and suppresses LH, which in turn suppresses testosterone production. Enclo alone, however, is antiestrogenic and antagonizes the estrogen receptor in the pituitary which leads to an increase in LH which stimulates the testes to produce endogenous test. The utility of Clomids estrogenic nature is in helping maintain estrogen levels when test is shut down (thus aromatization is as well). Which is why it is nice to use in PCT to restore not only test, but estrogen. However, taking it concurrently with AAS is counterintuitive, as it will actually increase your bodies estrogen and decrease its LH create very low test levels in an already suppressive environment. This is where enclo is different, because it essentially does the opposite. It increases your LH and stimulates the testes, preventing them from being completely shut down. The real utility of taking enclo on cycle is its effect on LH, not necessarily on test itself. I think your test levels dropped so low because you were taking Anavar and Clomid, not enclo. The testosterone boosting effects of the 62% enclo are lessened or canceled out by the zulcomifene (due to its effect on estrogen). To put it bluntly, clomid restores both testosterone and estrogen, whereas enclo only protects testosterones production via stimulating the testes. When I said "it is used in TRT clinics", I did not mean it in the sense that it is a TRT. As neither Clomid, Enclo, or HCG are viable sources of exo-test. Clinics prescribe enclo IN ADDITION to test when a person is concerned with their fertility (as TRT kills sperm count) or are simply worried about shrinking testicles. Like HCG, enclo stimulates the testes to produce more sperm and more test. Hope that wasn't too much rambling

 

[mumbledore]

Clomiphene consist of 68% Enclomiphene and 32% Zuclomiphene. The Zuclomiphene is what usually brings the sides, yes. But consisting of 2/3 of Enclomiphene, Clomid should work the same.

MA Research is coming out with Enclomiphene product 'soon'. If I'm not mistaken, the raws are under testing at the moment.

Like BBiceps said, Enclo is not used in place of HCG. They're different kind of drugs. Also just FYI, in case that wasn't a writing mistake by you, SERMs do not trick the brain to think there is too much estrogen. It does the opposite and binds to the estrogen receptros, making it seem to the HPTA feed back loop, that there's no/very little estrogen in the body and thus making the brain singal the testes to produce more test, that can then be aromatized to estrogen.

From the little what I've seen, It seems that a SERM + SARM can work ok for some, but doesn't for everybody and I don't think I've seen a successful trial with SERM + AAS. Also I think the doses for some of the successful SERM + SARM cycles have been something silly, like 5-10 mg of LGD.

All that said, I'm curious and if you decide to try it, I hope you'll check bloodwork and post them here. I mean I do want it to work, lol. If I can get a hold of Enclo myself, I might try it with LGD some day, just for science. LGD would be dosed around 20-30 mg to make the run worthwile.

Hey there! You are right, I confused the wording ahhh. But I would argue that they don't work the same, as Zulco is estrogenic and actually lowers LH (thus lowering test), whereas Enclo raises it. The whole point of taking the enclo on cycle is to raise LH to stimulate the testes in a suppressive hormonal environment. As for trials and anecdote, I have been trying to collect statements and data from different sites on SERM+AAS and I have seen some promising results. Someone reported that they ran 3 cycles of 20mg Tbol with enclo and their post cycle bloodwork reflected precycle blood levels in all 3 cases. Enclo is actually effective at higher doses of LGD, which is why I am wondering if it would continue to be effective at lower doses of something more suppressive. It is quite a powerful drug despite its low side effect profile. Enclo was able to effectively treat hormone induced male infertility according to a study on pubmed. And the reason why it is used in similar situations to HCG is because it prevents testicular shrinkage and increases sperm count. Different drugs, but similar purpose. I can share the reddit thread I made about this, so you can see the anecdotes and for your own opinion, but I am unsure if I can share links on here... I'm new, so just lmk if its not against the rules and I will post it here!

 

[KvanH]

Hey there! You are right, I confused the wording ahhh. But I would argue that they don't work the same, as Zulco is estrogenic and actually lowers LH (thus lowering test), whereas Enclo raises it. The whole point of taking the enclo on cycle is to raise LH to stimulate the testes in a suppressive hormonal environment. As for trials and anecdote, I have been trying to collect statements and data from different sites on SERM+AAS and I have seen some promising results. Someone reported that they ran 3 cycles of 20mg Tbol with enclo and their post cycle bloodwork reflected precycle blood levels in all 3 cases. Enclo is actually effective at higher doses of LGD, which is why I am wondering if it would continue to be effective at lower doses of something more suppressive. It is quite a powerful drug despite its low side effect profile. Enclo was able to effectively treat hormone induced male infertility according to a study on pubmed. And the reason why it is used in similar situations to HCG is because it prevents testicular shrinkage and increases sperm count. Different drugs, but similar purpose. I can share the reddit thread I made about this, so you can see the anecdotes and for your own opinion, but I am unsure if I can share links on here... I'm new, so just lmk if its not against the rules and I will post it here!

If you're cutting corners, then yes Enclo and HCG can be used in similar situations and provide same kind of results. But their mechanism of action is different and that makes them to be suitable for some situations and not suitable for some, respectively. HCG mimics LH in the testes, so it can be used to keep testes active and from athrophying during taking suppressive drugs. Or kick start a PCT with sensitizing testes to LH, after being without stimulus for a period of time, before taking a SERM. But that makes it so, that HCG can also suppress LH production and in higher doses ran for long can desensitize testes to LH.

Most of male body's estrogen come from aromatising test, normally. So no test -> no estro. Clomid can't convert to estrogen. When Clomid or any other SERM increases estro levels, it comes mainly due to increased test, that gets aromatized to estro.

The mechanism of action and purpose of use for a SERM in PCT and during cycle are the same; to increase (or maintain) LH levels, leading to higher test production. This is of course when talking about dealing with hormonal suppression. Raloxifene, Tamoxifene or Toremifene can be used during cycle to prevent gyno.

I agree though, that the Zuclo in Clomid is unwanted and Enclo is the better choice for a several reasons, and I would rather try Enclo + something suppressive, than Clomid + something suppressive. I would rather choose Enclo for PCT as well.

 

[mumbledore]

If you're cutting corners, then yes Enclo and HCG can be used in similar situations and provide same kind of results. But their mechanism of action is different and that makes them to be suitable for some situations and not suitable for some, respectively. HCG mimics LH in the testes, so it can be used to keep testes active and from athrophying during taking suppressive drugs. Or kick start a PCT with sensitizing testes to LH, after being without stimulus for a period of time, before taking a SERM. But that makes it so, that HCG can also suppress LH production and in higher doses ran for long can desensitize testes to LH.

Most of male body's estrogen come from aromatising test, normally. So no test -> no estro. Clomid can't convert to estrogen. When Clomid or any other SERM increases estro levels, it comes mainly due to increased test, that gets aromatized to estro.

The mechanism of action and purpose of use for a SERM in PCT and during cycle are the same; to increase (or maintain) LH levels, leading to higher test production. This is of course when talking about dealing with hormonal suppression. Raloxifene, Tamoxifene or Toremifene can be used during cycle to prevent gyno.

I agree though, that the Zuclo in Clomid is unwanted and Enclo is the better choice for a several reasons, and I would rather try Enclo + something suppressive, than Clomid + something suppressive. I would rather choose Enclo for PCT as well.

Besides easier access and lower cost, I am not sure why people would use Clomid over enclo. I understand sourcing and getting "legit" stuff is always an issue, but Enclo is the superior successor to Clomid in my eyes. Unlike HCG, enclo is not supressive to LH! This is another reason why I think more people should be taking enclo because it does not replace suppressed hormones, it restores them. Now, its probably not strong enough to maintain normal test levels during a hardcore test blast with a little tren sprinkled in, but it may actually stimulate the testes enough to keep them "awake" yet impaired. Effective turning complete shutdown into just suppression, which is easier (and more likely) to recover from. Even with a plain test cycle, enclo may be a good addition to keep LH up and force the testes to stay "awake". However, I think one would need to run an AI with enclo in that case... Especially if they are using dbol or something very estrogen-side heavy. I am hoping a lab rat will see this and be curious enough to do an enclo+tbol/dbol cycle with no test base as an experiment to see its effect on suppression and publish their findings. Enclo trials began in 2016 I think, so its a really new and exciting drug!

PS- I attached a screenshot of the reddit comment detailing a persons experience with tbol+enclo. The comment deleted by the mod details how it was 3 cycles, and one had elevated test levels during the post-cycle test interestingly.

 

[KvanH]

Besides easier access and lower cost, I am not sure why people would use Clomid over enclo. I understand sourcing and getting "legit" stuff is always an issue, but Enclo is the superior successor to Clomid in my eyes. Unlike HCG, enclo is not supressive to LH! This is another reason why I think more people should be taking enclo because it does not replace suppressed hormones, it restores them. Now, its probably not strong enough to maintain normal test levels during a hardcore test blast with a little tren sprinkled in, but it may actually stimulate the testes enough to keep them "awake" yet impaired. Effective turning complete shutdown into just suppression, which is easier (and more likely) to recover from. Even with a plain test cycle, enclo may be a good addition to keep LH up and force the testes to stay "awake". However, I think one would need to run an AI with enclo in that case... Especially if they are using dbol or something very estrogen-side heavy. I am hoping a lab rat will see this and be curious enough to do an enclo+tbol/dbol cycle with no test base as an experiment to see its effect on suppression and publish their findings. Enclo trials began in 2016 I think, so its a really new and exciting drug!

PS- I attached a screenshot of the reddit comment detailing a persons experience with tbol+enclo. The comment deleted by the mod details how it was 3 cycles, and one had elevated test levels during the post-cycle test interestingly.

I don't think Enclo or any SERM would be able to stimulate enough endogenous test production to be a worthwile addition to a test cycle, but I'd be happy to be wrong. And if it doesn't affect test production to a meaningful degree, then it wouldn't affect the need for an AI. If it would keep test production to a decent level, then that could be taken in to account in pinned test dose regarding the overall amount of test in system and the need for an AI.

I'm guessing the lack of Enclo used in general (= in PCT) is due to those reasons you mentioned and just being a newer drug.

Oh yeah, I forgot to comment the sharing of links; yeah you can share links to Reddit and such, but people on here don't want to read Reddit for information. I don't either, only for humour stuff. Threads on Reddit regarding PED's and stuff to that nature are retarded most of the time. Links to illegal drug sources and stuff like that are not allowed here.

Here's a thread where there's some discussion on the topic:

Starting new SARMS cycle… - AnabolicMinds.com

Aloha everyone, I’m about to start my cycle with a stack of LGD4033(10mg), YK11(5mg) with RAD140(10mg). Stats: 43 yo male, 6’0”, 240lbs Goal: To lean/bulk down to 205lbs Cycle: 8wks PCT: Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Suggestions on best time of day to take them with or...

anabolicminds.com

And here's another long thread about Clomid during cycle and the general idea of SERM during cycle to combat suppression:

Clomid during cycle - AnabolicMinds.com

I posted this in another thread, but I figured this would be a valuable piece of info for many. My first (oral) cycle was long, 10 weeks and I had a kitchen sink PCT with clomid/ DAA/ and an OTC PCT. Got my test levels checked 3 weeks into PCT and it was around 250 total. A few cycles later-...

anabolicminds.com

 

[Smont]

Has this happened before? I searched enclo and I couldn't find a lot of threads about this.

It works for less then 1% of ppl.

Imagine you're on a beach and every grain of sand is a person that tried to use a serm on cycle to prevent shutdown, the amount of people that it worked for could fit in the palm of your hand.

So well yes there is a slim to nothing possibility that it might work for you, they're still a possibility.

Then out of the few people who claim that it works only a small percentage of them have blood work with it and we don't even know if the sarms they were using were legit or not.

So do you want a potentially crash your hormones and take the risk that your dong stops working so you can gain maybe 1 lb of muscle on a sarm only cycle?

Mind you I'm a rep for a company that sells sarms and while they do work, sarms do not convert to estrogen or dht and those things are very important for muscle building, increasing strength, and maintaining sexual function and just feeling good in general.

So, if you're going to use a serm, then by your sarms like lgd or whatever you choose, stack it with something that converts to estrogen or estrogen and dht and save the enclom "serm" for pct.

 

[Smont]

And that is for serm + sarm cycle.

If you try to use a serm to prevent shutdown from real steroids your chances of being successful are zero

 

[BBiceps]

Hey again, I did a little bit of research into clomid and I think I can explain why that happened. Clomid is a mixture of 38% zuclomifene and 62% enclomifene. So "enclo" is essentially clomid with the zuclomifene removed. Zuclo and Enclo differ in the regard that Zulco is estrogenic and suppresses LH, which in turn suppresses testosterone production. Enclo alone, however, is antiestrogenic and antagonizes the estrogen receptor in the pituitary which leads to an increase in LH which stimulates the testes to produce endogenous test. The utility of Clomids estrogenic nature is in helping maintain estrogen levels when test is shut down (thus aromatization is as well). Which is why it is nice to use in PCT to restore not only test, but estrogen. However, taking it concurrently with AAS is counterintuitive, as it will actually increase your bodies estrogen and decrease its LH create very low test levels in an already suppressive environment. This is where enclo is different, because it essentially does the opposite. It increases your LH and stimulates the testes, preventing them from being completely shut down. The real utility of taking enclo on cycle is its effect on LH, not necessarily on test itself. I think your test levels dropped so low because you were taking Anavar and Clomid, not enclo. The testosterone boosting effects of the 62% enclo are lessened or canceled out by the zulcomifene (due to its effect on estrogen). To put it bluntly, clomid restores both testosterone and estrogen, whereas enclo only protects testosterones production via stimulating the testes. When I said "it is used in TRT clinics", I did not mean it in the sense that it is a TRT. As neither Clomid, Enclo, or HCG are viable sources of exo-test. Clinics prescribe enclo IN ADDITION to test when a person is concerned with their fertility (as TRT kills sperm count) or are simply worried about shrinking testicles. Like HCG, enclo stimulates the testes to produce more sperm and more test. Hope that wasn't too much rambling

Thanks for trying to explain and yes you’re new and yes I already know and NO it won’t work (no matter how much you want it too) and still pls do not refer to Reddit, nobody cares and nobody wants to discuss this again.

Enclo might look better on paper but as of now Clomid is superior to Enclo because it have more studies and have been proven to work for a long time in medical settings.

 

[Smont]

No one wants to help here because we beat this topic to death for like a year, if you want to try it go ahead and do it it's your body and it's your decision.

Good luck, you're going to need it

 

[mumbledore]

I don't think Enclo or any SERM would be able to stimulate enough endogenous test production to be a worthwile addition to a test cycle, but I'd be happy to be wrong. And if it doesn't affect test production to a meaningful degree, then it wouldn't affect the need for an AI. If it would keep test production to a decent level, then that could be taken in to account in pinned test dose regarding the overall amount of test in system and the need for an AI.

I'm guessing the lack of Enclo used in general (= in PCT) is due to those reasons you mentioned and just being a newer drug.

Oh yeah, I forgot to comment the sharing of links; yeah you can share links to Reddit and such, but people on here don't want to read Reddit for information. I don't either, only for humour stuff. Threads on Reddit regarding PED's and stuff to that nature are retarded most of the time. Links to illegal drug sources and stuff like that are not allowed here.

Here's a thread where there's some discussion on the topic:

Starting new SARMS cycle… - AnabolicMinds.com

Aloha everyone, I’m about to start my cycle with a stack of LGD4033(10mg), YK11(5mg) with RAD140(10mg). Stats: 43 yo male, 6’0”, 240lbs Goal: To lean/bulk down to 205lbs Cycle: 8wks PCT: Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Suggestions on best time of day to take them with or...

anabolicminds.com

And here's another long thread about Clomid during cycle and the general idea of SERM during cycle to combat suppression:

Clomid during cycle - AnabolicMinds.com

I posted this in another thread, but I figured this would be a valuable piece of info for many. My first (oral) cycle was long, 10 weeks and I had a kitchen sink PCT with clomid/ DAA/ and an OTC PCT. Got my test levels checked 3 weeks into PCT and it was around 250 total. A few cycles later-...

anabolicminds.com

Thank you for sharing these threads with me! They are definitely a very good resource for this topic. I saw some people saying that enclo is protective of the prostate and it helps prevent prostate cancer... Makes me wonder why they randomly discontinued the drug trial when the drug had the potential to prevent cancer... Oh wait, that's exactly why :/

 

[mumbledore]

No one wants to help here because we beat this topic to death for like a year, if you want to try it go ahead and do it it's your body and it's your decision.

Good luck, you're going to need it

I think I may have to... I am referring only to Enclo. While I appreciate hearing others experience with concurrent the use of serms in general, I worry that people misunderstand my interest as I am only really concerned with Enclo. Any other serm on cycle is a bad idea, yes. Using clomid or another serm is not what i'm interested in. I have heard of some TRT clinics prescribing enclo to men concerned with their fertility while on TRT. Its similar to why someone would take HCG, except enclo is not suppressive to LH over time like HCG is. I will link a Pubmed research article below that details a study of enclo being used in comparison to TRT and how it was able to keep the testes functioning better than the group without enclo. Even though enclo is a powerful drug, it likely won't be able to counteract the suppression from a huge test blast. But a low dose of orals? Maybe. It is already effective at doing that at high doses of sarms. I think there is potential with Enclo and I have not seen people discuss it in particular much. I am aware people here have discussed concurrent clomid use, but I have not heard it being successful and I have not seen any promising research papers on it. So I wont advocate for concurrent clomid usage, but I will advocate for concurrent enclo usage based on the evidence I have seen.

Here are the research papers which inspired my interest-
TRT and enclo study- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26496621/

Another study comparing TRT and enclo- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23875626/

 

[Smont]

I think I may have to... I am referring only to Enclo. While I appreciate hearing others experience with concurrent the use of serms in general, I worry that people misunderstand my interest as I am only really concerned with Enclo. Any other serm on cycle is a bad idea, yes. Using clomid or another serm is not what i'm interested in. I have heard of some TRT clinics prescribing enclo to men concerned with their fertility while on TRT. Its similar to why someone would take HCG, except enclo is not suppressive to LH over time like HCG is. I will link a Pubmed research article below that details a study of enclo being used in comparison to TRT and how it was able to keep the testes functioning better than the group without enclo. Even though enclo is a powerful drug, it likely won't be able to counteract the suppression from a huge test blast. But a low dose of orals? Maybe. It is already effective at doing that at high doses of sarms. I think there is potential with Enclo and I have not seen people discuss it in particular much. I am aware people here have discussed concurrent clomid use, but I have not heard it being successful and I have not seen any promising research papers on it. So I wont advocate for concurrent clomid usage, but I will advocate for concurrent enclo usage based on the evidence I have seen.

Here are the research papers which inspired my interest-
TRT and enclo study- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26496621/

Another study comparing TRT and enclo- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23875626/

We know all about enclo, that's what I've been talking about this entire time it doesn't work for more than 99% of people would be my guest. Just remember the side effects from having crashed testosterone levels suck.

 

[Smont]

And when I say it doesn't work I mean it doesn't work on cycle to prevent shutdown for more then 99% of people.

 

[Smont]

You're not the first person to think about this or to quote 10 million studies asking about it and hoping it's going to work. We're trying to save you the trouble and hassle, the bad mood and the erectile dysfunction, You're playing with fire

 

[mumbledore]

Thanks for trying to explain and yes you’re new and yes I already know and NO it won’t work (no matter how much you want it too) and still pls do not refer to Reddit, nobody cares and nobody wants to discuss this again.

Enclo might look better on paper but as of now Clomid is superior to Enclo because it have more studies and have been proven to work for a long time in medical settings.

I would argue that Clomid is not superior to enclo just because of its age. Enclo studies began in 2016, so it is still a very new. That would explain why it is not as widespread in the medical environment because it is still very recent and clinical trials have not been concluded. Clomid also has a lot of unwanted side effects in comparison to enclo, which I why I usually hear that enclo is preferred over clomid. I will say, however, clomid is easier to get and much cheaper than enclo. That is another potential reason why clomid is more "popular" than enclo, because its simply easier to get.

 

[Smont]

You might want to have this on hand if you go through with this

Tadalafil – MA Research Chems

maresearchchems.net

 

[mumbledore]

You're not the first person to think about this or to quote 10 million studies asking about it and hoping it's going to work. We're trying to save you the trouble and hassle, the bad mood and the erectile dysfunction, You're playing with fire

I understand. Are you able to link me to any anecdotes that would disprove it? A previous person in this thread described how clomid was ineffective, but clomid is different than enclo. I ask because I have collected a lot of blood backed anecdote to suggest it does work in some cases, but I am always open to cross examination.

 

[BBiceps]

You might want to have this on hand if you go through with this

View attachment 223016

Tadalafil – MA Research Chems

maresearchchems.net

OP is Starscream, stop feeding into his bs.

 

[mumbledore]

OP is Starscream, stop feeding into his bs.

Starscream? Like the transformer?

I don't think its BS. After referencing the thread I linked below, it seems that people have reached the understanding that enclo is the only serm that will work this way, and only with low doses.

Clomid during cycle - AnabolicMinds.com

Heres an update on my enclomiphene and 50 mg of anavar results after 5 and a half weeks. My baseline is 404, after getting bloodwork my test levels are at 367 estradiol is 65(pretty high my natty estro is at 39) and my fsh is at 6.2. I have been running enclomiphene at 12.5mg 6 times a week 1...

anabolicminds.com

 

[Smont]

Starscream? Like the transformer?

I don't think its BS. After referencing the thread I linked below, it seems that people have reached the understanding that enclo is the only serm that will work this way, and only with low doses.

Clomid during cycle - AnabolicMinds.com

Heres an update on my enclomiphene and 50 mg of anavar results after 5 and a half weeks. My baseline is 404, after getting bloodwork my test levels are at 367 estradiol is 65(pretty high my natty estro is at 39) and my fsh is at 6.2. I have been running enclomiphene at 12.5mg 6 times a week 1...

anabolicminds.com

Starscream is a member who's used various accounts and been banned multiple times and his signature trademark was to quote 5 million studies and annoy the f*** out of everybody.

Studies are great, but they're not proof of anything they're just a tiny piece of evidence and they very rarely almost never pan out in real life when it comes to All things bodybuilding and sports performance and performance drugs related.

Please stop quoting 50 million studies because they don't prove anything and believe it or not most of us has read all of them already

 

[Smont]

You will have much better feedback with the reddit community.

Here we are more focused on things that work.

There's probably 500,000 members or more on this forum over the years, probably 2 have had success with what you wanna do. You're not going to change any of our minds so you're just wasting your own time and our time by quoting all this stuff and dragging it out. I'm not trying to offend you, I'm trying to save you and everyone else the hassle

 

[BBiceps]

Starscream is a member who's used various accounts and been banned multiple times and his signature trademark was to quote 5 million studies and annoy the f*** out of everybody.

Studies are great, but they're not proof of anything they're just a tiny piece of evidence and they very rarely almost never pan out in real life when it comes to All things bodybuilding and sports performance and performance drugs related.

Please stop quoting 50 million studies because they don't prove anything and believe it or not most of us has read all of them already

Stop feeding the troll.

 

[mumbledore]

Starscream is a member who's used various accounts and been banned multiple times and his signature trademark was to quote 5 million studies and annoy the f*** out of everybody.

Studies are great, but they're not proof of anything they're just a tiny piece of evidence and they very rarely almost never pan out in real life when it comes to All things bodybuilding and sports performance and performance drugs related.

Please stop quoting 50 million studies because they don't prove anything and believe it or not most of us has read all of them already

Ahh I see. I'm new here so I don't know the lore haha.

The thing I quoted in that reply you replied to was a different thread on this site tho. Page 30 of the thread I think? That one has a bunch of anecdote about enclo and its definitely a very interesting read and convincing enough for me. Its not a miracle drug, but I think it has huge utility for low dose cycles. Someone even says that other serms are ineffective for this and only enclo seems to work when taken concurrently. Its definitely a risk or "playing with fire" to toy with more powerful stuff than what they described, but "playing with fire" is how we grew to understanding it.

 

[mumbledore]

You will have much better feedback with the reddit community.

Here we are more focused on things that work.

There's probably 500,000 members or more on this forum over the years, probably 2 have had success with what you wanna do. You're not going to change any of our minds so you're just wasting your own time and our time by quoting all this stuff and dragging it out. I'm not trying to offend you, I'm trying to save you and everyone else the hassle

I linked to a thread on this site full of positive anecdote? Have you seen any negative anecdotes I am missing? I understand we disagree, but I would like to your reasoning.

 

[Smont]

Ahh I see. I'm new here so I don't know the lore haha.

The thing I quoted in that reply you replied to was a different thread on this site tho. Page 30 of the thread I think? That one has a bunch of anecdote about enclo and its definitely a very interesting read and convincing enough for me. Its not a miracle drug, but I think it has huge utility for low dose cycles. Someone even says that other serms are ineffective for this and only enclo seems to work when taken concurrently. Its definitely a risk or "playing with fire" to toy with more powerful stuff than what they described, but "playing with fire" is how we grew to understanding it.

Again, we know what you quoted, and what you quoted was like the only person on this entire forum who had success with It. I'm done here, I'm not going to quote you anymore and I'm unsubscribing to the thread. Please don't quote me after this msg as I don't wish to keep getting updates on this thread.

In the nicest way possible, it's a giant waste of my time.

Good luck tho. I hope you fall into that less then 1% and it works for you

 

[Smont]

I linked to a thread on this site full of positive anecdote? Have you seen any negative anecdotes I am missing? I understand we disagree, but I would like to your reasoning.

Dude! Do whatever you want, good luck, I'm out. This isn't me disagreeing with you this is me providing feedback from hundreds if not thousands of people that it didn't work for, some of those ppl I have been sent there bloodwork. One of them I'm still trying to help him figure out how to get his sex drive and erectile function back.

I'm gonna send him a msg and maybe he can talk some sense into you but I'm not going to name him without his permission.

 

[Smont]

Stop feeding the troll.

I'm done I promise lol

 

[mumbledore]

Stop feeding the troll.

I'm not a troll ;-;

I also did a little bit of reading and I found one of your anecdotes from a few years ago regarding the clomid usage. You said that "not a single time during the Var cycle or after (been off Var for 6 weeks and Clomid 1 week) have I felt any signs of low test ". But you also reported your test had crashed to 43 when you got your results back. You even said "if hadn’t got the bloods I would of thought it was a success". I understand that the blood results are the final say and they are the only way of know what is going on in the body, but would it not be reasonable to say that the enclo was responsible for your lack of suppression related symptoms? It could have done this by keeping your testes stimulated and preventing them from atrophying. If I am understanding your post correctly, while enclo did not maintain your precycle blood levels, you yourself reported that it helped stave off supression symptoms, right? Isn't there some benefit and merit to concurrent usages if it prevents low-test symptoms?

The post- https://anabolicminds.com/community/threads/clomid-during-cycle.301579/page-28

 

[mumbledore]

I don't think Enclo or any SERM would be able to stimulate enough endogenous test production to be a worthwile addition to a test cycle, but I'd be happy to be wrong. And if it doesn't affect test production to a meaningful degree, then it wouldn't affect the need for an AI. If it would keep test production to a decent level, then that could be taken in to account in pinned test dose regarding the overall amount of test in system and the need for an AI.

I'm guessing the lack of Enclo used in general (= in PCT) is due to those reasons you mentioned and just being a newer drug.

Oh yeah, I forgot to comment the sharing of links; yeah you can share links to Reddit and such, but people on here don't want to read Reddit for information. I don't either, only for humour stuff. Threads on Reddit regarding PED's and stuff to that nature are retarded most of the time. Links to illegal drug sources and stuff like that are not allowed here.

Here's a thread where there's some discussion on the topic:

Starting new SARMS cycle… - AnabolicMinds.com

Aloha everyone, I’m about to start my cycle with a stack of LGD4033(10mg), YK11(5mg) with RAD140(10mg). Stats: 43 yo male, 6’0”, 240lbs Goal: To lean/bulk down to 205lbs Cycle: 8wks PCT: Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Suggestions on best time of day to take them with or...

anabolicminds.com

And here's another long thread about Clomid during cycle and the general idea of SERM during cycle to combat suppression:

Clomid during cycle - AnabolicMinds.com

I posted this in another thread, but I figured this would be a valuable piece of info for many. My first (oral) cycle was long, 10 weeks and I had a kitchen sink PCT with clomid/ DAA/ and an OTC PCT. Got my test levels checked 3 weeks into PCT and it was around 250 total. A few cycles later-...

anabolicminds.com

I apologize if this sounds weird, but I want to thank you again for being so kind and informative in your response. I am becoming reluctant to post at all online because it seems many view independent curious is a sin and honest questions quickly escalate into bitter and uninformative exchanges more often than they should. Thank you for chatting with me

 

[BBiceps]

I'm not a troll ;-;

I also did a little bit of reading and I found one of your anecdotes from a few years ago regarding the clomid usage. You said that "not a single time during the Var cycle or after (been off Var for 6 weeks and Clomid 1 week) have I felt any signs of low test ". But you also reported your test had crashed to 43 when you got your results back. You even said "if hadn’t got the bloods I would of thought it was a success". I understand that the blood results are the final say and they are the only way of know what is going on in the body, but would it not be reasonable to say that the enclo was responsible for your lack of suppression related symptoms? It could have done this by keeping your testes stimulated and preventing them from atrophying. If I am understanding your post correctly, while enclo did not maintain your precycle blood levels, you yourself reported that it helped stave off supression symptoms, right? Isn't there some benefit and merit to concurrent usages if it prevents low-test symptoms?

The post- https://anabolicminds.com/community/threads/clomid-during-cycle.301579/page-28

First of all, it was not “Enclo”, it was Clomid I got from my Dr, I had a script for it. You’re right, I felt no sign of shut down but even though I felt good it still made my Test drop, it did bounce back pretty quick after but, regardless, it did not work to keep my Test level up and that’s what you trying to argue it does, not that it could keep symptoms away.

I want to apologize to @Smont and everyone else, I fed the troll…

 

[mumbledore]

First of all, it was not “Enclo”, it was Clomid I got from my Dr, I had a script for it. You’re right, I felt no sign of shut down but even though I felt good it still made my Test drop, it did bounce back pretty quick after but, regardless, it did not work to keep my Test level up and that’s what you trying to argue it does, not that it could keep symptoms away.

I want to apologize to @Smont and everyone else, I fed the troll…

Ah, you're right. It was clomid not enclo. My mistake.

How am I a "troll" when I'm just trying to have a conversation with you and reply with very simple and related questions? Is everyone that respectfully disagrees with you a troll? I have been polite and have not been personally insulting to you as you have been to me, yet I am the troll? Lol ok. I get that you said the topic was previously discussed and I am new to this site, but if its that irritating to you then just don't open the thread. If talking about this is such a sore spot for you, then just dont post in my thread lol. I don't want to be "fed" by you, as what little substance you provided to my question is not worth the trouble, so I'll be ignoring you or blocking you or whatever its called on this site. No need to reply, lest you "feed the troll".

 

[beefyfan]

I'm too lazy to dig it up but a few clinics are prescribing enclo at 2 doses per week alongside test cyp in lieu of hcg. I'm going to run straight enclo as soon as MA releases it. Will post before and after labs.

 

[mumbledore]

I'm too lazy to dig it up but a few clinics are prescribing enclo at 2 doses per week alongside test cyp in lieu of hcg. I'm going to run straight enclo as soon as MA releases it. Will post before and after labs.

Yeh I heard about that too. Its cool cause enclo is not suppressive of LH like HCG is. Looking forward to seeing your labs, thanks man

 

[KvanH]

I'm too lazy to dig it up but a few clinics are prescribing enclo at 2 doses per week alongside test cyp in lieu of hcg. I'm going to run straight enclo as soon as MA releases it. Will post before and after labs.

To me that's an odd practice, if someone is a true candidate for trt. If someone suffers from hypogonadism and they need exogenous test, then the serm won't have enough of an impact on LH or their testes won't react to the LH. And if the Enclo (or any other serm) does have a proper impact on LH, then the patient could just take the serm without the test. No?

About your planned Enclo use; do you mean using it solo or with test or what?

 

[mumbledore]

To me that's an odd practice, if someone is a true candidate for trt. If someone suffers from hypogonadism and they need exogenous test, then the serm won't have enough of an impact on LH or their testes won't react to the LH. And if the Enclo (or any other serm) does have a proper impact on LH, then the patient could just take the serm without the test. No?

About your planned Enclo use; do you mean using it solo or with test or what?

I can corroborate this as well, as I have heard similar stories. I think they may be slowly rolling it out to see how it is tolerated or preferred over HCG as an alternative treatment option, but to my knowledge the drug still has to be compounded. There was an FDA board meeting a year or so ago where they discussed banning enclo from compounding pharmacies. I think the reasoning for taking both at the same time is to preserve fertility. Enclo on its own may not be a replacement for test, but when used in conjunction it can help keep the testes functioning? If I understand correctly

 

[KvanH]

I can corroborate this as well, as I have heard similar stories. I think they may be slowly rolling it out to see how it is tolerated or preferred over HCG as an alternative treatment option, but to my knowledge the drug still has to be compounded. There was an FDA board meeting a year or so ago where they discussed banning enclo from compounding pharmacies. I think the reasoning for taking both at the same time is to preserve fertility. Enclo on its own may not be a replacement for test, but when used in conjunction it can help keep the testes functioning? If I understand correctly

Well, to me that doesn't make sense. Enclo will have way less of an effect, when used in conjuction with test, than when used solo. At least what comes to LH and I would assume what comes to FSH as well. So if it can't keep testes funtioning solo, then it sure as hell can't keep testes functioning, when used with exogenous test. But I'm not well versed on the fertility side of things, like at all, so I don't really know about that aspect. Many guys have conceived a child, while having been injecting test for years.

 

[mumbledore]

Well, to me that doesn't make sense. Enclo will have way less of an effect, when used in conjuction with test, than when used solo. At least what comes to LH and I would assume what comes to FSH as well. So if it can't keep testes funtioning solo, then it sure as hell can't keep testes functioning, when used with exogenous test. But I'm not well versed on the fertility side of things, like at all, so I don't really know about that aspect. Many guys have conceived a child, while having been injecting test for years.

I'm not too informed about the fertility aspect of TRT either (I never want kids), so I'm just parroting info I've heard haha. One day, I'm probably gonna **** around and do a cycle of 20mg of dbol with enclo and no test base as an experiment and share the results... I'll have nolva on hand in case I get estrogen sides from all the test, but the thread you shared with me makes me really optimistic it would work. Worst case scenerio I could just stop the dbol and PCT early if it goes horribly wrong, but I don't think it'll get that bad with just a low dose of dbol. I have not tried enclo with LGD before, but I'm gonna be a special snowflake and try something more unknown and riskier than a sarm+serm protocol.

 

[Smont]

To me that's an odd practice, if someone is a true candidate for trt. If someone suffers from hypogonadism and they need exogenous test, then the serm won't have enough of an impact on LH or their testes won't react to the LH. And if the Enclo (or any other serm) does have a proper impact on LH, then the patient could just take the serm without the test. No?

About your planned Enclo use; do you mean using it solo or with test or what?

It's just another way to make you buy more crap lol. Here let me sell you another drug $$$

 

[Smont]

I'm too lazy to dig it up but a few clinics are prescribing enclo at 2 doses per week alongside test cyp in lieu of hcg. I'm going to run straight enclo as soon as MA releases it. Will post before and after labs.

Trt clinics=legal drug dealers most of the time, they just want you to buy more medications. Don't forget to buy the deca, anavar, adex, peptides and everything else they offer at 27x the going price and you gotta pay outta pocket cuz insurance won't cover it.

 

[johnny412]

Starscream is a member who's used various accounts and been banned multiple times and his signature trademark was to quote 5 million studies and annoy the f*** out of everybody.

Studies are great, but they're not proof of anything they're just a tiny piece of evidence and they very rarely almost never pan out in real life when it comes to All things bodybuilding and sports performance and performance drugs related.

Please stop quoting 50 million studies because they don't prove anything and believe it or not most of us has read all of them already

Smont...buddy...you just explained starscream...to starscream!!! i think you need a nap lol

 

[Smont]

Smont...buddy...you just explained starscream...to starscream!!! i think you need a nap lol

 

[Kronic]

results may vary but side effects of enclomiphine are minimal unless you get the blurry vision. if you get blurry vision discontinue use immediately. otherwise just add it to something and see how it goes. would need blood tests to convince anyone here though.

 

[Hyde]

Let’s all share in a little mental exercise together here: we’ll pretend momentarily that using enclomiphene in conjunction with 20 total mg/day of ANY existing SARM or even AAS would prevent HPTA shutdown. Dealer’s choice, even Methyltren will suffice for this logical experiment. 20 mother-effing milligrams of Methyltrienolone per day will not suppress you while taking enclomiphene. Okay, follow along.

Now that you can take any oral up to 20mg, how do you make progress? Drugs have to taper up in severity as cycles go on. So maybe initially you run a bit of Ostarine, then LGD, Tbol, Dbol, Superdrol, M1T, Mtren…as several years go by, you begin to need harder and harder compounds because you cannot increase the maximum daily dosage further. And the problem becomes, these oral compounds become progressively harder to tolerate in nature, and as you age your body’s ability to tolerate them paradoxically decreases.

It doesn’t matter that you CAN take 20mg of Mtren without suppression, because you’ll die of organ failure long before you reach that (Mtren is typically ran 0.5-4mg/day for 2-4 weeks). What kind of new muscle can you eventually build on just 4 week “cycles” where you feel like death, can’t eat, are getting stomach ulcers. Your body won’t let you tolerate these harsher drugs to the extent they would be needed solo to make progress, and you can’t take progressively more mg in this scenario to break through new plateaus without getting suppressed.

So ultimately, you must use oils to acquire and maintain supraphysiological levels of muscle. You can’t keep getting further gains, and keep them above what your endogenous testosterone can maintain, with periodic 20mg Dbol runs. And if all you are doing is trying to max out your natural limits, what your endogenous production can naturally support, you are probably going to not become very impressive anyway.

That’s the sad truth. People who don’t use steroids tend to overestimate their general effects, and also don’t appreciate they tend to be a commitment. You can only hold supraphysiological levels of muscle so long as the environment can support it, and you generally need more drugs as time goes on to reach through to new thresholds of unnatural size.

 

[Smont]

Let’s all share in a little mental exercise together here: we’ll pretend momentarily that using enclomiphene in conjunction with 20 total mg/day of ANY existing SARM or even AAS would prevent HPTA shutdown. Dealer’s choice, even Methyltren will suffice for this logical experiment. 20 mother-effing milligrams of Methyltrienolone per day will not suppress you while taking enclomiphene. Okay, follow along.

Now that you can take any oral up to 20mg, how do you make progress? Drugs have to taper up in severity as cycles go on. So maybe initially you run a bit of Ostarine, then LGD, Tbol, Dbol, Superdrol, M1T, Mtren…as several years go by, you begin to need harder and harder compounds because you cannot increase the maximum daily dosage further. And the problem becomes, these orals compounds become progressively harder to tolerate in nature, and as you age your body’s ability to tolerate them paradoxical decreases.

It doesn’t matter that you CAN take 20mg of Mtren without suppression, because you’ll die of organ failure long before you reach that (Mtren is typically ran 0.5-4mg/day for 2-4 weeks). What kind of new muscle can you eventually build on just 4 week “cycles” where you feel like death, can’t eat, are getting stomach ulcers. Your body won’t let you tolerate these harsher drugs to the extent they would be needed solo to make progress, and you can’t take more mg to break through new plateaus without getting suppressed.

So ultimately, you must use oils to acquire and maintain supraphysiological levels of muscle. You can’t keep getting further gains, and keep them above what your endogenous testosterone can maintain, with periodic 20mg Dbol runs. And if all you are doing is trying to max out your natural limits, what your endogenous production can naturally support, you are probably going to not become very impressive anyway.

That’s the sad truth. People who don’t use steroids tend to overestimate their general effects, and also don’t appreciate they tend to be a commitment. You can only hold supraphysiological levels of muscle so long as the environment can support it, and you generally need more drugs as time goes on to reach through to new thresholds of unnatural size.

People definitely overestimate what steroids do.

And you made a great point. Even if it worked on 100% of ppl, there's only so much drugs you would be able to use and the amount is going to be too low.

Say it works with 20mg dbol (it won't) but if it did, you got maybe 6 weeks on 20mg dbol. Your strength goes up a bit, you put on like 10-15lbs of bloat, 2-3lbs of muscle. Now within 2 weeks of stopping you loose 10-15lbs of water and within 2 months you loose the muscle and when you start your next cycle your right back where you were in the first place.

It's pointless.


And who tricked me back into this thread, thanks a lot lol.