Uh Oh - HMB No Workie In Us?

Jstrong20

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Lol! I was just in the turkesterone thread and was thinking its about time for another hmb thread. Unrelated products but both seem to show up every few years. I'm confident neither is great or they would of been a staple by now like creatine. But I'm always interested in the discussions and what some of the more science savvy members have to say.
 
00A

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Very intresting, I been using HMB with Creatine. In description it links to some studies.. I do feel personally it dont really work..
 

210LBS

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I've never really noticed anything from HMB. I used to take it when cutting because everyone says it's anti-catabolic, but there was no way for me to really see or feel any results from it. It's one of those supplements I just kind of just forgot to re-order.
 

shockrock3

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Thought we knew about HMB 20 yrs ago it was a joke? Waiting for an article on Colostrum now.
 
00A

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Thought we knew about HMB 20 yrs ago it was a joke? Waiting for an article on Colostrum now.
Why Colostrum no aware, been taking Colostrum also for first time in my post workout shake.
 
00A

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It doesn't help raise IGF levels...if that's why you're taking it. Its useless unless you're an infant
I took it to try see if gain any health benefits and like you said increase IGF, just bought one small tub.. The study seems to be from 2002 anything newer as proof or all studies come to this conclusion?
 

kisaj

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Hard to believe it still is selling at this point. Every 6mo-year something is posted about it not working and never anything refuting that
 
The_Old_Guy

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Guys (still haven't dug in, thanks Admin on inclusion criteria hint) - can we please. please, please realize that there are 2 types of HMB: Free Acid and Calcium Bound. While that idiot Bill Phillips was talking about Ca bound in the 90's, see the idiot part - he was shilling like most do. In the last 2-3 years, Adel, on his own site, has about 4 or 5 studies on HMB-Ca that weren't crazily configured and showed benefit - now this. Free Acid I can see - that dude has lost all credibility with me. Can't wait to read the details.
 
jameschoi

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WIll HMB help super old people in their 70's to 80's like that product called Juven from muscle wasting.
 
HIT4ME

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I think the bottom line is, "Who knows?" We have extremely few qualified studies is really what that meta-analysis shows. My biggest issue here would be - how long did those studies run for? "No statistical effect" over 1-3 months can change if spaced out over a year. We are talking a supplement here and comparing it to a "low dose" steroid is pretty unrealistic.

On the other hand, it's possible that HMB isn't very active at all and merely serves as a metabolite that facilitates excretion of leucine and its metabolites.

There are plenty of studies saying CLA is worthless - but I still believe that higher doses over 6+ months does cause changes because I've tried it. It takes a long time. Does this mean it's worth spending money on? Maybe not. The effects could be so small that the cost isn't justified.

To steal something that you once said before The_Old_Guy - does broccoli work? How long do you need to eat broccoli for in order to see its effects? What if they did a 3 month randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled study on the effects of broccoli on one's health?
 
muscleupcrohn

muscleupcrohn

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For ~$50/year, or <$5/month, or <$0.15/day, I say it can be justified as "the potential benefits justify the cost." There are some human studies showing some benefits, and it seems to be, at the least, a generally healthy thing to take as we age, both for it's ability to preserve muscle mass in elderly individuals, and also for it's ability (at least in a rodent study) to preserve cognitive function as we age. I wouldn't really want to spend the $30-40+ per month on the fancy/new HMB-FA anymore, but for $50/year, it's much more doable, if a little bit of hope is involved.
 
Jiigzz

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The inclusion criteria was a bit ridiculous.
Maybe, but Wilson has a reputation of being a bit of a fraud. There are a few things floating around that criticise his work, and seem to think he fabricates data.

Several things on critiques of his work: Critical analysis of Wilson et al's. 2017 keto study - SCI-FIT and a letter to the editor on HMB: https://alanaragon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/LTE-Lowery-et-al-draft-13-.pdf

We are aware of a previous letter from Hyde et al. (6) in which these authors asked for clarification from
Lowery et al. (9) on their methods. Thus, our skepticism is clearly shared by others and, given the
number and research experience of the authors on this letter, quite widespread
 
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Maybe, but Wilson has a reputation of being a bit of a fraud. There are a few things floating around that criticise his work, and seem to think he fabricates data.

Several things on critiques of his work: Critical analysis of Wilson et al's. 2017 keto study - SCI-FIT and a letter to the editor on HMB: https://alanaragon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/LTE-Lowery-et-al-draft-13-.pdf

We are aware of a previous letter from Hyde et al. (6) in which these authors asked for clarification from
Lowery et al. (9) on their methods. Thus, our skepticism is clearly shared by others and, given the
number and research experience of the authors on this letter, quite widespread
Did I mention Wilson?
 
Jiigzz

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shockrock3

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I took it to try see if gain any health benefits and like you said increase IGF, just bought one small tub.. The study seems to be from 2002 anything newer as proof or all studies come to this conclusion?
I'll be honest...you're the first person in ~20yrs that I've heard using Colostrum. It was a debunked theory dating back to the mid 90's that bovine colostrum was this new "super supplement". In no way shape or form will it increase IGF levels...it "might" improve or help your immune system as that is what it's main functioning is to provide newborns with antibodies.
Personally I would read up on it tbh just to familiarize yourself with it, etc.. Not sure how much $$$ bovine colostrum goes for nowadays but it's def. not something anyone uses in this day and age.
 
StatePlan1425

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“In their discussion of the differential effects on body fat, the authors do yet rightly point out that the discrepancies, e.g. one study in judo athletes showing sign. reductions in body fat mass while no change was observed in a sample of collegiate football players, could be a result of the "interaction between supplementation and sport specific training (i.e., volume, intensity, duration, sports discipline etc.) - this, in turn, gets us back to the Wilson-study/-ies, in which both, training volume and intensity were significantly higher than in most previous HMB studies.”

I’m not defending Wilson. However, as a wrestler and coach I can tell you how wrestlers and other combat sports train in season is much different than American football, real football, basketball, etc. I believe there is evidence to show HMBs efficiency in highly catabolic training protocols and thus, useful for some athletes.
 
migsacura

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I practice Intermittent Fasting and I use HMB during the fasted state in hope it will preserve muscle.
 

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amazon had clear muscle last week for $27 and now $35 for 168 caps lol
just get regular HMB. the free form is gimmicky. they are both shown to reach the blood stream at about the same time.
 
jameschoi

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just get regular HMB. the free form is gimmicky. they are both shown to reach the blood stream at about the same time.
I am getting it tomorrow, for $27 want to see how it feels for post recovery.
 

hsk

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As others have posted, for approximately $50 per year, HMB-CA is cheap enough for anyone to try at the full dosage for an extended period of time to find out if it works or not. The potential benefits of preserving lean mass and decreased fat mass are something all athletic individuals would like. It may not be new and sexy, but if it does work for an individual it is definitely affordable enough to be used as a daily general health supplement.
 
CarneyFolk

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I practice Intermittent Fasting and I use HMB during the fasted state in hope it will preserve muscle.
This^

And because of the unique circumstances of IF, Ive notice it to have an effect on doms and recovery.
 
muscleupcrohn

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casein should be used here.
Am I misunderstanding your point: how can you be fasted if you consume casein? Or are you suggesting your last meal/food before fasting should be casein? Also, HMB seems to possess anti-catabolic effects beyond, or at least different than, what you get from a protein source.
 

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Am I misunderstanding your point: how can you be fasted if you consume casein? Or are you suggesting your last meal/food before fasting should be casein? Also, HMB seems to possess anti-catabolic effects beyond, or at least different than, what you get from a protein source.
nope, casein doesn't increase insulin so essentially you can burn fat and being anti-catabolic during the fasting period.

I would do HMB and Casein up to 50grams.
 

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Am I misunderstanding your point: how can you be fasted if you consume casein? Or are you suggesting your last meal/food before fasting should be casein? Also, HMB seems to possess anti-catabolic effects beyond, or at least different than, what you get from a protein source.
nothing in the food supplement kingdom is more anti-catabolic than Micellar casein.

It may seem strange (in your head) but for the same reasons to take HMB, you would take Micellar casein.
 
muscleupcrohn

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nothing in the food supplement kingdom is more anti-catabolic than Micellar casein.

It may seem strange (in your head) but for the same reasons to take HMB, you would take Micellar casein.
I wouldn’t consider HMB to be in the “food supplement kingdom” though. You’re not going to get ~3g HMB from any amount of food.
 

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I wouldn’t consider HMB to be in the “food supplement kingdom” though. You’re not going to get ~3g HMB from any amount of food.
HMB is a food supplement.

You are missing the point. You are considering taking HMB for its anti catabolic properties. Micellar Casein is a better anti-catabolic.
 
jameschoi

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Would adding HMB CA to HMB FA be overkill, just got my clear muscle today.
 
Nac

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Would adding HMB CA to HMB FA be overkill, just got my clear muscle today.
If you take the CA as a powder (not capped), for all practical purposes it is effectively the same as FA. Except lots cheaper.
 
muscleupcrohn

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HMB is a food supplement.

You are missing the point. You are considering taking HMB for its anti catabolic properties. Micellar Casein is a better anti-catabolic.
Show me the research that proves casein is more effective in regards to anti-catabolic effects than HMB. It seems that this is a hypothesis; I can respect you having a hypothesis, but don’t masquerade it as a proven fact.
 

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Show me the research that proves casein is more effective in regards to anti-catabolic effects than HMB. It seems that this is a hypothesis; I can respect you having a hypothesis, but don’t masquerade it as a proven fact.
relax.

The anti catabolic nature of Casein is simply a proven fact. I'm not trying to sell you anything. Don't do it, simple as that.

Casein stimulates Muscle protein synthesis while not increasing insulin....that is a remarkable if you can grasp it.
 
muscleupcrohn

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relax.

The anti catabolic nature of Casein is simply a proven fact. I'm not trying to sell you anything. Don't do it, simple as that.

Casein stimulates Muscle protein synthesis while not increasing insulin....that is a remarkable if you can grasp it.
You repeatedly speak down to me, saying “you don’t understand,” and “if you can grasp it.” I think I am capable of understanding what you are saying, I am merely saying that simply because casein possesses anti-catabolic effects does not inherently prove that these effects are more potent than that of HMB. Perhaps supported by more studies, but I am not aware of ANY research comparing the two. There aren’t really even many studies with similar protocols/methodologies that we can use to try to compare them, as you have to be able to differentiate between anabolic and anti-catabolic effects, which can lead to similar outcomes/results in some cases. Therefore, you can say that you believe/hypothesize casein possesses more potent anti-catabolic effects than HMB, or that your experience leads you to conclude this, but how are you claiming it to be a proven fact? Where is your evidence man? The fact that you mention that casein “stimulates MPS” suggests that it may be you who isn’t “grasping” the concept, as HMB is vastly inferior to leucine in regards to stimulating MPS, but is superior in terms of anti-catabolic effects. Furthermore, you can get 3g of HMB-CA for ~$50/year, or ~$0.14/day, can you get an effective dose of casein (in regards to anti-catabolic effects) for even double that price? But you’re right, I just can’t grasp it...

Edit: the thing is, I’m not even really disagreeing with you about anything important. I’m not refuting your claim that casein possesses anti-catabolic effects, only that you have not provided sufficient evidence to prove that this effect is more potent than that of HMB. I am asking that if you claim this is a fact, to please provide the evidence, otherwise it is a hypothesis/opinion, and should be presented as such.
 

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You repeatedly speak down to me, saying “you don’t understand,” and “if you can grasp it.” I think I am capable of understanding what you are saying, I am merely saying that simply because casein possesses anti-catabolic effects does not inherently prove that these effects are more potent than that of HMB. Perhaps supported by more studies, but I am not aware of ANY research comparing the two. Therefore, you can say that you believe/hypothesize casein possesses more potent anti-catabolic effects than HMB, or that your experience leads you to conclude this, but how are you claiming it to be a proven fact? Where is your evidence man? The fact that you mention that casein “stimulates MPS” suggests that it may be you who isn’t “grasping” the concept, as HMB is vastly inferior to leucine in regards to stimulating MPS, but is superior in terms of anti-catabolic effects. Furthermore, you can get 3g of HMB-CA for ~$50/year, or ~$0.14/day, can you get an effective dose of casein (in regards to anti-catabolic effects) for even double that price? But you’re right, I just can’t grasp it...
There doesn't need to be a comparative study to prove something. Here is a good example. Whey protein is more effective than leucine on its own. Easy enough.

I never said you don't understand. You've made that fact up. You've become combatant over solid advice that you are unwilling to accept. I believe my recommendation was to combine both. I than asked you to grasp a point about how remarkable the statement is of increasing MPS while not stimulating insulin release (which is still remarkable) and you will not.

An increase in MPS is often always followed by an increase in Insulin and Insulin hinders lipolysis. If someone can create an environment nutritionally of increased muscle protein synthesis while stimulating lipolysis...remarkable. Stimulating MPS while lipolysis occurs is unheard of. But you don't have to believe that.
 
muscleupcrohn

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There doesn't need to be a comparative study to prove something. Here is a good example. Whey protein is more effective than leucine on its own. Easy enough.

I never said you don't understand. You've made that fact up. You've become combatant over solid advice that you are unwilling to accept. I believe my recommendation was to combine both. I than asked you to grasp a point about how remarkable the statement is of increasing MPS while not stimulating insulin release (which is still remarkable) and you will not.

An increase in MPS is often always followed by an increase in Insulin and Insulin hinders lipolysis. If someone can create an environment nutritionally of increased muscle protein synthesis while stimulating lipolysis...remarkable. Stimulating MPS while lipolysis occurs is unheard of. But you don't have to believe that.
A sufficient dose of whey contains a full dose of leucine, where a sufficient dose of casein does not provide a full dose of HMB, so this comparison is not exactly relevant. Your comparison of HMB and casein would perhaps be more akin to comparing the muscle building effects of, say, whey and creatine, or betaine.

Also, your point about casein’s ability to simulate MPS without influencing insulin is great, I can respect it, but it’s not exactly relevant to the discussion of HMB, as the primary anti-catabolic MoA is HMB is not via increasing MPS, as it is actually quite poor at this relative to leucine.

You still haven’t provided evidence that casein is more anti-catabolic then HMB. Even if, as you say, you don’t need a direct comparative study to prove this, at least show me from where you derive your conclusion. Saying that the anti-catabolic effects of casein are well documented and proven is great, and I’m not disputing that, but this in no way proves that it is superior to HMB, only that it has a similar observable effect. Your claim of why casein is a better anti-catabolic supplement than HMB didn’t even mention HMB, or compare it to casein with any actual evidence/data, but only said that casein’s effects are well known, and somehow acted as if that statement is enough to conclude that it is better than HMB. There’s also cost to factor in in terms of value/best, and a full dose of HMB seems to be cheaper than a full dose of casein.
 

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A sufficient dose of whey contains a full dose of leucine, where a sufficient dose of casein does not provide a full dose of HMB, so this comparison is not exactly relevant. Your comparison of HMB and casein would perhaps be more akin to comparing the muscle building effects of, say, whey and creatine, or betaine.

Also, your point about casein’s ability to simulate MPS without influencing insulin is great, I can respect it, but it’s not exactly relevant to the discussion of HMB, as the primary anti-catabolic MoA is HMB is not via increasing MPS, as it is actually quite poor at this relative to leucine.

You still haven’t provided evidence that casein is more anti-catabolic then HMB. Even if, as you say, you don’t need a direct comparative study to prove this, at least show me from where you derive your conclusion. Saying that the anti-catabolic effects of casein are well documented and proven is great, and I’m not disputing that, but this in no way proves that it is superior to HMB, only that it has a similar observable effect. Your claim of why casein is a better anti-catabolic supplement than HMB didn’t even mention HMB, or compare it to casein with any actual evidence/data, but only said that casein’s effects are well known, and somehow acted as if that statement is enough to conclude that it is better than HMB. There’s also cost to factor in in terms of value/best, and a full dose of HMB seems to be cheaper than a full dose of casein.
Casein has been proven more effective to Whey protein. That was a comparative study.

Not splitting hairs here but HMB hasn't been proven to be anti-catbolic it's suggested and still theory. Several different pathways have been suggested so I don't think its a known anti-catbolic. If you read the most recent paper they suggest some anabolic pathways as well.

The HMB data is all over the place. Hence my suggestion of combining both. Casein is a much more solid choice since it's known. For now HMB seems to work in very selective conditions.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Casein has been proven more effective to Whey protein. That was a comparative study.

Not splitting hairs here but HMB hasn't been proven to be anti-catbolic it's suggested and still theory. Several different pathways have been suggested so I don't think its a known anti-catbolic. If you read the most recent paper they suggest some anabolic pathways as well.

The HMB data is all over the place. Hence my suggestion of combining both. Casein is a much more solid choice since it's known. For now HMB seems to work in very selective conditions.
I wasn’t comparing casein to whey, I was providing an example (say, whey vs creatine) that would be more similar to the topic of this discussion (HMB vs casein) than your proposed similar comparison (whey vs leucine). My point was that by taking a sufficient dose of casein, or whey, you are getting a sufficient dose of leucine, where you aren’t getting a full dose of HMB from whey or casein, therefore making your comparison not exactly relevant. I never actually compared whey to casein.

Let’s just agree that casein does have use here, and also that HMB seems to (perhaps/likely) exert its anti-catabolic effects via a different MoA(s) than casein, and is also very affordable.

As you said, likely isn’t redundant to use both under certain conditions, and the price of HMB may justify using it regardless, as it’s very affordable. Casein is a bit more expensive, but it does also serve as a protein source and stimulates MPS, so they’re just different, if similar.

I think I’ve already argued over enough minutia that we can agree on the bigger points instead haha.
 
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