TRT
- Thread starter The_Old_Guy
- Start date
Nac
Well-known member
Well there goes my theory that keto only works in conjunction with drugs :/
What natty supps you taking atm? Please dont totally disillusion me/us by saying you getting gainz with none (feel free to name compounds instead of products if you wish to avoid appearing favouritism of sponsors).
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I started this cut on 1 Feb, I didn't get the Rx for Test Cyp until 20 Feb. 3 weeks may not be that long comparatively, but 21 days of no carbs and 70g of protein is still a pretty good chunk. In those 21 days I added some weight to some 1 RMs. Now, not a lot - I think 5lbs - but still. I'm pretty fricken amazed to tell you the truth - while I am at the "all you need is 1.8g/kg protein" end of the scale, I was kind of worried about dropping all the way down to 70g (now at 60g because I'm chasing the blood meter for kicks) - seriously, ask 99% of this board to drop P to that level and see what they say
I think it really comes down to two things: If you use it, the body won't get rid of it - and Ketones (fat) are just as (if not more) "protein sparing" as carbs. The only "loss" I'm seeing, are some final reps in the 11-15 range (I have not changed training at all - doing German Loading Patterns for the 'Big 3' and doing Mike Israetel inspired programming/meso-cycles for everything else). I won't stay Keto, but I am definitely going to do at least one 8-12 week keto period per year - to kill some possible cancers rkmich
New member
Hello all...I started another thread on TRT before I saw this one...just diagnosed with low T and start TRT today
Nervous about the first self applied pinning...seems subQ is the way to go. Doc said IM, but I don't think he knows anything about subQ, and neither did I at time of my appt, else I would have asked him. So, should I just start with subQ, or with IM? Which one is least painful and lowest risk for issues?
Also, I was planning to do my first ever PH run, but guess I should delay for a bit to see how the TRT goes?
The_Old_Guy. Would especially appreciate your inputs.
Thanks!
Nervous about the first self applied pinning...seems subQ is the way to go. Doc said IM, but I don't think he knows anything about subQ, and neither did I at time of my appt, else I would have asked him. So, should I just start with subQ, or with IM? Which one is least painful and lowest risk for issues?
Also, I was planning to do my first ever PH run, but guess I should delay for a bit to see how the TRT goes?
The_Old_Guy. Would especially appreciate your inputs.
Thanks!
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I would hold off on any drug use that interacts with hormones, until you are sure your doctor is finished with your protocol adjusting (dosages, blood work, ancillaries like Arimidex etc...).
Whatever injection method you plan to use, I would do it right off the bat, in case each one results in different levels. Other than Military vaccinations, I've never done IM - After starting SubQ from the start, I never will. 50mg E3.5D has my trough at 840 Total with 75 Free - good enough for me. SubQ is painless - I use 3/8" 26G into the lower Ab fat. Just let your doc tell you how he wants you to inject - then do what you want - he won't know
Make sure when he runs blood work, that he at least does Total, Free and Sensitive E2 - I went in with a laundry list of Sex Hormones to test, but he said Insurance might not cover it and I'd be on the hook for the bill - so I switched to just what he was going to pull originally, and it didn't include E2 and my dumb ass missed/forgot it... so now I have to pull it myself.
If you are counting on Insurance to pay for the Test Cyp - be advised that they don't like to, and may require a bunch of blood tests BEFORE they approve it - which means you can't start the TRT right away. I said F it and paid out of pocket cuz I wanted to inject that night. 10ml of 200mg/ml costs about $45 at Walgreens with GoodRx. At 100mg/week, that's a 5 month supply.
I would personally not settle for anything less than an initial 100mg/week. It sounds like you are already settled on a treatment with him, but if not, yea, 100mg/week Test Cyp. My guy had a Resident in with him and they first started talking about Test Gel.... I said "NO WAY! Here's what I want..." Be a vociferous health advocate for yourself - but use tact to get your way - more flies with honey
Good luck.rkmich
New member
The_Old_Guy
Great advice, thank you!
As to dosage, actually I don't even know. I was so excited there might be an end to issues i have been having I didn't even ask the doc what would be dosage! Ugh, I am an idiot sometimes
As to insurance, no worries, I am on high deductible plan and they don't cover crap diddly (I have to hit $4k before they will pay for anything!), so will be out of pocket regardless
And subQ it will be...is there better time of day to inject? Morning or night?
And I actually preferred the gel, but no way I can afford about $400/month! Why did you prefer injection?
Finally, I have fairly low body fat, and definitely a 6pack...is it still ok to inject in abdomen?
Thanks!
Great advice, thank you!
As to dosage, actually I don't even know. I was so excited there might be an end to issues i have been having I didn't even ask the doc what would be dosage! Ugh, I am an idiot sometimes
As to insurance, no worries, I am on high deductible plan and they don't cover crap diddly (I have to hit $4k before they will pay for anything!), so will be out of pocket regardless
And subQ it will be...is there better time of day to inject? Morning or night?
And I actually preferred the gel, but no way I can afford about $400/month! Why did you prefer injection?
Finally, I have fairly low body fat, and definitely a 6pack...is it still ok to inject in abdomen?
Thanks!
mike33511
Well-known member
The_Old_Guy, I think you have convinced me to switch to subcutaneous injections after my current blast. I was doing 200mg IM a week split into two shots. I'm not sure if I should try to inject more than a half mL in a subQ injection or see if I get similar results at half the dosage.
JBoneke
Member
Are you gonna use an AI? At that dose I imagine yes.
mike33511
Well-known member
I do at my current dose. Not sure if I would need to do with a lower dose subQ. I'd have to try it and then get bloodwork to know for sure.
rkmich
New member
The_Old_Guy
Ok, so picked up the meds today...it is 100mg/week test cyp...think I will try like you and do 50 e3d or so for more even levels. Dang that stuff is cheap... $11 for 400mg (months worth)!
And smallest needle I could get at pharmacy was 25G 5/8". Do you think that will be too big for subQ in stomach?
Thanks
Ok, so picked up the meds today...it is 100mg/week test cyp...think I will try like you and do 50 e3d or so for more even levels. Dang that stuff is cheap... $11 for 400mg (months worth)!
And smallest needle I could get at pharmacy was 25G 5/8". Do you think that will be too big for subQ in stomach?
Thanks
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I do Mon 6AM, Thur 6PM. I don't know what's "best", but that's an easy E3.5D protocol and my trough (Thurs afternoon) was 842ng/dl.
Because it's the best way for high, steady levels - and the cheapest - and while I don't mind rubbing trans-dermals on for 8 week cycles... every day for life? Uh, no thanks!
Shredded Glutes low? You should be able to find some fat in the Lower Ab, Obliques, Lower Back area?
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Yes, generic Depot is friggen cheap as dirt - pretty awesome, huh?
No, those syringes are fine (did you watch Crissler's video?). The first syringes I used were 5/8" 25G, they work fine (and will fill a tad bit quicker than 26G). The 3/8" 26G are usually not carried locally - I got a years supply for about $22 here: Invalid Link Removed
If you are lean, just "go in" at a 45 degree angle.
BTW - see if you can get your doctor to write for a 10ml vial of 200mg/ml - it will be the cheapest in the long run (5 months worth at 100mg/wk).
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Yea, I'm pretty much a cherry newb at this, but I would think if I was going to do 100mg E3.5D - I'd just do two 50mg injections - one on either side of the navel both days. That 3/8" needle is literally painless. You'd just have the tiny bit of extra PITA of having to do everything twice. Of course, you can scour Crissler's allthingsmale message board and see if anyone has done more than 0.5ml per site. And then there's this: The next time you refill the Test Cyp Rx - get a 200mg/ml vial = 100mg per 0.5ml = winning!
Yea, I'm pretty much a cherry newb at this, but I would think if I was going to do 100mg E3.5D - I'd just do two 50mg injections - one on either side of the navel both days. That 3/8" needle is literally painless. You'd just have the tiny bit of extra PITA of having to do everything twice. Of course, you can scour Crissler's allthingsmale message board and see if anyone has done more than 0.5ml per site. And then there's this: The next time you refill the Test Cyp Rx - get a 200mg/ml vial = 100mg per 0.5ml = winning!
Most problems with bumps, redness, possible infection, etc...occur when people inject more than .4-.5ml subQ.
Then again, that could also be the fact than many people aren't using pharm grade which uses less BA and probably causes much less inflammation at the injection site.
Sparkss
Well-known member
kenpoengineer posted a set of parameters that are good to monitor when on TRT
For the tests I used to use private MD labs, but recently switched to discount labs due to the price and ease of ala-carte test selection. Private MD labs supports this, but you pay a higher price there unless you get their "bundles". They both use Labcorp for the blood draws. For the sensitive E2 you can get it here. Test (free/total) is only $29 more to add on. Bear in mind that most tests get results the next day, however sensitive e2 takes up to a week.
Invalid Link Removed
HTH
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Helped a ton, thanks. I'm going to give them a look over - awesome post mate!
Sparkss
Well-known member
Glad I could give back, since your post turned me on to an alternative (and much more cost effective option) to my current TRT
Nac
Well-known member
I started this cut on 1 Feb, I didn't get the Rx for Test Cyp until 20 Feb. 3 weeks may not be that long comparatively, but 21 days of no carbs and 70g of protein is still a pretty good chunk. In those 21 days I added some weight to some 1 RMs. Now, not a lot - I think 5lbs - but still. I'm pretty fricken amazed to tell you the truth - while I am at the "all you need is 1.8g/kg protein" end of the scale, I was kind of worried about dropping all the way down to 70g (now at 60g because I'm chasing the blood meter for kicks) - seriously, ask 99% of this board to drop P to that level and see what they say
Ive watched some informative vids on keto, and despite the facebook crusade by Aragon/Shoenfeld/etc I enjoy the science involved. But Im too stuck in my ways foodwise to even give it a try. Respect for those that do it (properly) though.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Worst case: anything lost will come back pretty quick. Since I only care about impressing myself - I said F it, let's see what happens
I've noticed when listening to the experts, that they usually don't trumpet any "metabolic magic" - just that ketosis kills hunger, which equals better diet compliance, which equals no/less cheating, which equals more fat lost. Now on the health/longevity side, I *do* think there is an advantage to starving the body of glucose once in a while (although IF or ADF may be good enough).rkmich
New member
I have done keto and daily IF (16/8) for years. Feel great, very low body fat, all biomarkers excellent, EXCEPT my test levels. I have read that long term ketosis can screw with your hormone levels, especially test, and we really need some level of carbs for healthy hormone and thyroid levels (my thyroid is OK)
I have wondered if long-term ketosis is reason for my rock bottom test level. I have recently switched to a more carb cycling approach, but still I am in ketosis much of time and lower carb. About 100g per day average, but sometimes less than that, sometimes a bit more...mainly carb consumption fully tracks my training...heavy days (especially metcons) carbs are higher. But on easy training or rest days, easily I am <50g carbs.
Just my thoughts...YMMV
I have wondered if long-term ketosis is reason for my rock bottom test level. I have recently switched to a more carb cycling approach, but still I am in ketosis much of time and lower carb. About 100g per day average, but sometimes less than that, sometimes a bit more...mainly carb consumption fully tracks my training...heavy days (especially metcons) carbs are higher. But on easy training or rest days, easily I am <50g carbs.
Just my thoughts...YMMV
rkmich
New member
The_Old_Guy
Haven't injected yet. What are your thoughts on doing an initial 100mg just to get my levels up a little quicker, then dropping to 50 e3.5d? Or best if I just start with 50?
And by the way, actual docs instruction was 200mg every two weeks (IM). That does not seem like it would give me very stable and more constant levels, and rather would be like a roller coaster!
Haven't injected yet. What are your thoughts on doing an initial 100mg just to get my levels up a little quicker, then dropping to 50 e3.5d? Or best if I just start with 50?
And by the way, actual docs instruction was 200mg every two weeks (IM). That does not seem like it would give me very stable and more constant levels, and rather would be like a roller coaster!
mike33511
Well-known member
I would just start with 50mg twice a week. It should get your levels up pretty quickly, especially since you're doing subQ. What your doctor is suggesting is an outdated protocol.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
What he said ^ Doc sounds old school.
rkmich
New member
Thanks all for help and support...just did first 50mg subQ in stomach not so bad...got a little woozie, but I did it ?...guess will get easier with time
Couple things...really tough to draw out that solution, and wasted few drops...also, thinking ahead when that vile gets low, how the heck to get it all out with that short needle?
Also, burns a bit at injection site...is that normal?
Couple things...really tough to draw out that solution, and wasted few drops...also, thinking ahead when that vile gets low, how the heck to get it all out with that short needle?
Also, burns a bit at injection site...is that normal?
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I heat mine up a bit - put the vial in a heavy duty zip-loc bag and run hot water over it. I've heard others use a hair dryer. I just do it like Crissler said - tip it up at a 45 degree angle and draw back on the plunger a little and let it dribble down and fill. Keep pulling back a little when it slows/stops. I fill to 0.8ml or so (my dose is 0.5ml) then push the air at the tip back into the vial. Leaves me a full syringe of 0.5ml of Test Cyp. Woozie? You must *really* hate needles, LOL. It's hard to diagnose "burns at injection site"? For me, it's a 0.3 out of 10 pain scale injecting at 45 degrees into fat. Then the exact site *may* occasionally be a 0.5 "sore" for a little bit. I didn't really have pronounced low T effects, so hard to say how quick you'll feel better. First thing I noticed after about a week was better sleep. Dr. McClain says it takes up to 6 weeks for everything related to be at 100% - probably due to the half life of Cyp being 8 days - so I assume there's a gradual increase to an absolute peak at that time? As far as your vial getting low - make sure your doc get's you a refill before the last couple doses - mine said just call when ready and this next one he'll write for 1 year (IIRC).
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Had to break into the AI (Aromasin). Thurs nights injection was the end of the 4th week. Woke up Friday with nipples that felt like Rudolph's Nose. Dosed 12.5mg of Exemestane at 6AM (improperly - not with a fat source). At 9PM only a small improvement, so did another 12.5mg with Coconut Oil. Woke up today and all was well (stuff works quick!). Really kicking myself for not having the Doc pull E2 (Sensitive). Monitoring until Mon AM's injection and will do 12.5mg. Once I think everything is stabilized, I'm headed down Labcor. I seem to respond too well, LOL, to 100mg. I must be a combo of a slow metabolizer/excreter of Test, and or a high aromatizer of Estrogen (I'm pretty fricken lean too). Debating whether to just use an AI, or try dropping to 80mg/week. There might be something to Crissler's theory of SubQ being more efficient (less is more)? And also McClain's advice that it takes 6 weeks for full effect? BTW, my 'General Health' stack includes 200mg of I3C in the AM, and 1g x2 of Grape Seed Extract, as far as things that allegedly control Estrogen.
JBoneke
Member
You won't need one taking 2 fifty mg injections.
mike33511
Well-known member
This is not necessarily true. Everyone's body is going to aromatize at different rates.
JBoneke
Member
Yeah, but at that small a dose? It's a good trt dose though.
mike33511
Well-known member
Read post #128 of this thread. The_Old_Guy is experiencing symptoms of high estradiol, and he is using the same dose.
JBoneke
Member
Yeah I saw that.
What protocol do you use with no need of an AI?
mike33511
Well-known member
I use an AI.
JBoneke
Member
Ok. What test dose and frequency and what AI and frequency?
mike33511
Well-known member
200mg a week split into two shots. 0.5mg Arimidex the day after each shot.
JBoneke
Member
Ok. That's obviously an AI dose.
Sparkss
Well-known member
My doc also suggested using DIM to help control E2. I have been taking it ever since I have been on TRT. Although I think Arimidex would be cheaper in the long run, the pellets I use now don't lend themselves to being able to "time" that dex dose. The most common time is the as mike33511 stated he did, the day after the injection. for TRT doses I believe .25 is common.
When you get the E2 sensitive just be warned that it takes up to 7 days to get the results back. It is not "overnight" like the test and other markers.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
There's bulk DIM - I'd get Bioperine too. But I don't have high confidence in plants, once you get to a certain point. I believe (in addition to just old guys aromatizing more due to age) that my peak may be pretty high, if my trough was 842 starting only week 3 when blood was drawn. If I had to be honest, I bet I'd do well on 90mg or even 80mg/week. I'm going to start a new protocol tonight, still trying to maintain 100mg/week - Every 2 Days, 8 hours, for three 33mg injections per week. If I get symptoms again, I'll either cut the dose or just commit to an AI. And all of this needs to be confirmed by labs, and more than a few unfortunately$$$ But it's pointless to run down there with my tits on fire and get a report back saying "hey, you're E2 is high" Well no duh... LOL! Once I get *something* workable, I'll let it stabilize and then go draw blood. I'm not worried - the Tamoxifen and Exemestane I have is legit and it brought everything back in line pretty fast. From what I'm reading, it actually takes a while of ignoring high E2 for any Gyno to start to develop.
Sparkss
Well-known member
Yea, the DIM my doc pointed me to include bioperine. I now use bulk DIM (And bulk piperine). Not saying how I would have done w/o, but I have had no issues with E2 since I started on the TRT (albeit pellets and also only keeping my T levels in the mid-600s)
Sparkss
Well-known member
The_Old_Guy how goes the shots? What dosage/frequency did you settle on? Taking an AI regularly? Thanks!
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I made some assumptions based on what was going on and dropped down to 90mg/week. I also titrated *up* the AI (Aromasin/Exemestane) dosage after staying at each dosage for 1 week. I'm currently taking the max 25mg/day. I'm going to stay here for a few weeks and then go get some bloods. No achy joints or other signs of crushed E2, so we'll see what the labs say. Then I'll go to my doc and see if I can get him to write for Aromasin (and that's if the price with the Pfizer coupon card is low enough - if not, I'll either have to stay RC, or switch to Anastrozole - which I don't want to do, as Exemestane is a really elegant AI).
mike33511
Well-known member
25mg a day? Are you sure your Exemestane is dosed correctly?
kisaj
Legend
Keep in mind that it will take 8-12 weeks to get everything stabilized, so I would not continue to adjust things already. I fluctuated quite a bit the first couple months and it is completely normal. That's why you generally get a full hormone panel and CBC/lipids in the beginning and then again after 90-120 days, then evaluate. It's important to know where your labs are in the beginning more than any other time. You are on a very manageable and proper starting dose at 100mg a week. Introducing exogenous test can temporarily spike your levels and your hormones may be fluctuating due to this. It takes time.
Also, I'm sure that those taking DIM realize (it's said here all the time) that it doesn't work like an AI at all. It simply helps metabolize bad estrogens. Any doctor telling you to take DIM should be explaining this.
JBoneke
Member
Wouldn't that crash you in a couple days?
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
No, can't be with RC. At least it works though, LOL! I personally think my T level is really, really high. Everything I'm seeing is saying draw blood at 6-8-12 weeks to get a good reading on T levels on TRT. My guy pulled mine at week 2 (after only a total of just four, 50mg injections) and I was at 850ng/dl. Then, surprise, about 2 weeks later, I had the breast pain/sensitivity. So maybe if it's wicked high, I need the 25mg to control aromatization - that's why I dropped to 90mg. All speculation though - I'm going to wait a couple more weeks and go get a draw done to confirm - I won't die in two weeks
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
If it's full strength, yes...except...what if I'm at 2500ng/dl? Let's all wait for the blood work
I have no low E2 sides yet, and all breast sensitivity is gone. Libido seems a smidge better too. Bloods, bloods, bloods and we'll all know for sure.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
You're right - I may go back to 100mg, so the only variable is the AI. I'm dumb, dumb, dumb. Thanks!