TRT: Using Clomid vs Testosterone Injections/Gel etc

[Red Fox]

For everyone on TRT, or thinking of going into TRT via testosterone, read these!


Clomiphene citrate and testosterone gel replacemen... [J Sex Med. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
Outcomes of clomiphene citrate treatment in young hy... [BJU Int. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI
Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estroge... [J Sex Med. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.maledoc.com/blog/2010/04/28/how-clomid-works-in-men/

 

[rphash49]

Thanks for posting. Looks like a very cost effective TRT and seems to work better than andro gel based on the studies. Interesting that none of the clinical studies showed signs of vison changes or any other sides. I've never had a vision problem with clomid but I've heard about it happening pretty often in others. Pharm grade from different countries is very cheap and if you were dosing 25mg every other day as shown in the studies you could get a 3 year supply for less than $100 bucks including shipping.

 

[B5150]

Technically this is not TRT but rather HRT. Clomid is a SERM that stimulates LH/FSH. While this may be effective at treating seconday hypogonadism (pituitary not signaling LH/FSH) it will be useless for primary hypogonadism which is nonfunctioning testicles. This is a very significant root cause that needs to be clarified before using a SERM. This ver important distinction is why some men need testosterone treatment as a SERM will simply not work.

 

[Red Fox]

Technically this is not TRT but rather HRT. Clomid is a SERM that stimulates LH/FSH. While this may be effective at treating seconday hypogonadism (pituitary not signaling LH/FSH) it will be useless for primary hypogonadism which is nonfunctioning testicles. This is a very significant root cause that needs to be clarified before using a SERM. This ver important distinction is why some men need testosterone treatment as a SERM will simply not work.

Ah yes you are very right. I am sorry, I should have clarified. This is for secondary hypogonadism. If your testicles don't work (ie trauma), then clomid won't work. I will do research to confirm this but I believe the mass majority on TRT are secondary, and they'd benefit from clomid, but I will check those stats.

 

[rphash49]

Technically this is not TRT but rather HRT. Clomid is a SERM that stimulates LH/FSH. While this may be effective at treating seconday hypogonadism (pituitary not signaling LH/FSH) it will be useless for primary hypogonadism which is nonfunctioning testicles. This is a very significant root cause that needs to be clarified before using a SERM. This ver important distinction is why some men need testosterone treatment as a SERM will simply not work.

So that leads me to think if you need testosterone treatment for primary hypogonadism it will be a permanent on going treatment. Right?

 

[Red Fox]

So that leads me to think if you need testosterone treatment for primary hypogonadism it will be a permanent on going treatment. Right?

I want to look into whether HCG can do anything in reference to primary.

Because there is a "restart HPTA" method designed by Dr. Michael Scally. I don't remember if he clarified whether his restart works only on secondary.

 

[Red Fox]

According to this

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/95/4/1810.full.pdf

Though it's a small study, secondary outnumber primary by about 6 times over. So although primary exists, I feel more people on TRT based on that stat there alone are secondary and therefor should attempt clomid

 

[Red Fox]

I'd also love to see what adding 10mg of nolva a day would do to your test levels ontop of clomid. I bet you could hit 1000 fairly commonly

Though nolva has been reported to reduce GH to some degree, it is reported that 10mg is all it takes to achieve full testosterone increasing benefits, and at that dose it is reasonable to assume it is not high enough to also hinder GH


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6193975?dopt=Abstract
...20 mg tamoxifen daily for 6 weeks resulted in a significant increase of LH (211%), FSH (215%), E2 (231%), total T (157%), free T (148%) and total DHT (148%) levels in blood.

 

[Red Fox]

jmo but there is no way in hell i'd want to be on clomid or nolva or any other serm for a long period of time. hot flashes, loss of appetite, and emotional sides. i've tried em all and cant stand any of them for more than 4 weeks in pct. an ai seems like a better alternative. the only sides i get from aromasin is joint pain, which could probably be fixed with a dosage adjustment. idk it just seems like the ai's dont have the sides like serms do.

Good advice, but I have not seen any studies on the healthiness of long term use of AI's, though I have seen studies purporting the safety of both tamox and clomid in long-term use.

As for something to counter appetite loss... look up something called megestrol. I gained 20 lbs since getting it. Though it is rumored to have anti androgen/anabolic effects, so if that is a true concern, I would use remeron (anti depressant) or periactin, both which are INFAMOUS for extreme appetite increases.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

jmo but there is no way in hell i'd want to be on clomid or nolva or any other serm for a long period of time. hot flashes, loss of appetite, and emotional sides. i've tried em all and cant stand any of them for more than 4 weeks in pct. an ai seems like a better alternative. the only sides i get from aromasin is joint pain, which could probably be fixed with a dosage adjustment. idk it just seems like the ai's dont have the sides like serms do.

yeah i just can't justify being on a women's fertility or breast cancer drug for life/extended period of time. just seems unnatural, and then there are the wonderful sides. red fox says he does not get any sides so he does not have to worry about that aspect. Id venture to guess 80-90% of guys get the emotional sides...the vision issue im not so sure on that.

 

[rphash49]

Good advice, but I have not seen any studies on the healthiness of long term use of AI's, though I have seen studies purporting the safety of both tamox and clomid in long-term use.

As for something to counter appetite loss... look up something called megestrol. I gained 20 lbs since getting it.

Just about every study I find in regards to AI is short term use in overweight 70+ year old men. RC AIs seem to have more sides than serms at least from my experience. Ive used Clomid, Nolva and torem multiple times up to 6 weeks and actually never have any sides. I take l-dopa with Clomid, always have so I'm not sure if it would give me emotional issues or not.

 

[Red Fox]

yeah i just can't justify being on a women's fertility or breast cancer drug for life/extended period of time. just seems unnatural, and then there are the wonderful sides. red fox says he does not get any sides so he does not have to worry about that aspect. Id venture to guess 80-90% of guys get the emotional sides...the vision issue im not so sure on that.

Whilst this may be an issue for some with clomid, what about nolva? From the stats I posted, it seems nolva is even more beneficial than clomid even at 10mg, which is a VERY low dose and all that is reported as being required for full testosterone benefits... ie, high test benefits, little if any sides due to dose.

But you must understand, using testosterone is no more natural. Plus, it shuts you down, whereas nolva and clomid restart you, and could possibly reverse damage caused by aas use

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Whilst this may be an issue for some with clomid, what about nolva? From the stats I posted, it seems nolva is even more beneficial than clomid.

But you must understand, using testosterone is no more natural. Plus, it shuts you down, whereas nolva and clomid restart you, and could possibly reverse damage caused by aas use

I don't get the emotional sides on nolva .....but then again i used it sporadically for gyno issues on cycle...or attempted gyno reversal. I don't recall any issues while on it though.

 

[Red Fox]

I don't get the emotional sides on nolva .....but then again i used it sporadically for gyno issues on cycle...or attempted gyno reversal. I don't recall any issues while on it though.

I would be very interested in if you stopped your TRT and took nolva for 2 months then got a blood test...

First month at PCT doses, second month at 10mg a day...

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Oh almost forgot lol...in regards to the test being just as unnatural as clomid...i disagree....test is quite natural in men (obviously) and therefore exogenous test used to bring you up to normal range for men = much more natural than a full time SERM

 

[AnabolicHolic]

I would be very interested in if you stopped your TRT and took nolva for 2 months then got a blood test...

First month at PCT doses, second month at 10mg a day...

Since i was 40 at the time of diagnoses with low t I figured just to jump on trt. I had just finished a comprehensive clomid pct btw....

 

[Red Fox]

Oh almost forgot lol...in regards to the test being just as unnatural as clomid...i disagree....test is quite natural in men (obviously) and therefore exogenous test used to bring you up to normal range for men = much more natural than a full time SERM

More natural in that regard sure but also as abnormal in terms of it is foreign, your body did not make it, and as a result, your body shuts down all production. Plus, foreign test vs your natural test I'm sure there is a difference, but that's just intuition speaking

 

[Red Fox]

Other interesting info on tamoxifen

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHR

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/640052?dopt=Abstract

 

[AnabolicHolic]

More natural in that regard sure but also as abnormal in terms of it is foreign, your body did not make it, and as a result, your body shuts down all production. Plus, foreign test vs your natural test I'm sure there is a difference, but that's just intuition speaking

I look at it like you are substituting a natural hormone that is deficient when using test...with clomid you not only are using a foreign substance to restore your hormone levels, but also using it for purposes its not indicated. plus you are susceptible to the sides since it is a foreign substance...test is naturally occurring and won't cause any sides other than what comes naturally.

 

[Red Fox]

are you trying to be funny? if not, its obvious that we're not on the same page here, probably not the same planet.

Half and half. Remeron and periactin increase appetite, which we could all benefit from. At least when trying to bulk. What are you referring to though?

 

[rphash49]

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/88/12/5951.long

Yeah I've read that one. Only a 10 day study

 

[Red Fox]

and what is the purpose of having higher than normal test levels if it doesn't translate into a benefit? serms lower igf1 and increase shbg which likely cancels out the benefit.

Does it decrease igf1 and increase shbg to the point that it cancels out the benefits that come from 2x your normal testosterone levels? I think this becomes more personalized now, and would require blood work. I personally am at the very high range of IGF-1 according to blood work, so I can afford to lose the miniscule amount that 10mg of tamox would bring, considering it doubles testosterone at that dose yes?

 

[B5150]

jmo but there is no way in hell i'd want to be on clomid or nolva or any other serm for a long period of time. hot flashes, loss of appetite, and emotional sides. i've tried em all and cant stand any of them for more than 4 weeks in pct. an ai seems like a better alternative. the only sides i get from aromasin is joint pain, which could probably be fixed with a dosage adjustment. idk it just seems like the ai's dont have the sides like serms do.

Dose dependent, AI's can be harsh on lipids. If keeping or bring E2 in normal range inversely improves your testosterone then it would be viable. Dropping E2 too low will kill lipids.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Dose dependent, AI's can be harsh on lipids. If keeping or bring E2 in normal range inversely improves your testosterone then it would be viable. Dropping E2 too low will kill lipids.

I was at 165 total estrogen....i believe that i cannot crush my estrogen....its like an entity upon itself...that cannot and will not be crushed lol. Im doing 1mg arimidex EOD and 100mg forma ED...the estrogen is gonna get it with both barrels and we'll see what's up!!

 

[B5150]

I remember your post. Keep in mind that estrogen and estradiol (E2) are not the same. I need to send you a link to a lab. You can get shbg and E2 done privately if you like. I'll try to get it to you tonight if you like.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

I remember your post. Keep in mind that estrogen and estradiol (E2) are not the same. I need to send you a link to a lab. You can get shbg and E2 done privately if you like. I'll try to get it to you tonight if you like.

Ok sounds good. I have an estradiol and psa plus free and total test lab scheduled for tomorrow actually. I will request shbg too....but the gp knowing what that is is a total crapshoot lol. I am requesting my total estrogen number again just to compare it to the 165 and see how my androgel adjustments and rc adex are working. Its the only estrogen number i have for comparison.