TRT Test P/NPP/Mast P Blast

Flyboy84

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A quick bit about me. 36yo, 6ft 2in, 200lbs, 20% BF best guess. Been on TRT since June, still dialing in weekly dose so this isn't happening anytime soon. I've ran a few PH cycles, but not anything in the last few years. I ran a Test/Deca cycle almost 10 years ago, so it's not my first run with the real deal but I'm not an expert. I've been suffering low T for at east 18 months before getting on TRT and my success in the gym has been minimal. My goal is to recomp, lose the stomach and chest fat and gain muscle. Here is what I am thinking.

100mg Test C/wk (TRT, I'll just keep this up)
60mg Test P eod wk 1-10
60mg NPP eod wk 1-10
30mg Mast P eod wk 1-10
This is my first blast and I'm not looking to explode, just have slow and keepable gains with minimal sides.

Here is what I'm questioning. I have 100 tabs of Var25 that I'm thinking of using 25mg/day for the first 50 days, but I'm half thinking of just saving it for later and seeing what the NPP can do for me. I'm also not sure on the AI. I have letro and exem on hand. I prefer exem, so maybe 6mg twice a week with these light doses?

Any advice from the pros?
 
Nac

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This is what Id do, but keep in mind this is based on my own experiences so is also generalised.

Id run the var at 50mg for the last 4wks, wks 7-10. If I was at 20% bfat Id lean more toward a cut, youll look better leaner than not. With those drugs a mild deficit would be sufficient, so itd be a sort of middle ground between a recomp and a more aggressive cut.

Good thing about doing a mild cut is youll rebound when you return to cruise mode and increase kcals back up to maintanence. This may mean you retain some blast fullness even though your doses have dropped.

I used to be all about recomping but now I think its inefficient compared to more traditional cut/bulk approaches. And you dont have to spend the whole time in deficit mode; in fact, not wishing to overcomplicate your options, but at 10wks you could even do 4wks in deficit, 2wks up to maintanence, 4 weeks at deficit, or any number of approaches. But, the main thing I think you should aim for is bodyfat reduction. Trust me, I think youll be happier looking leaner but maybe less muscle growth, than a bit more growth but less fat loss (Im obviously making some quite possibly wrong assumptions here).
 
Nac

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Also, its possible you might experience nipple puffiness from the NPP. But I wouldnt use a SERM until sides presented. Ralox is best, but nolva works too. Dont expect an AI to be 100% preventative.
 

Flyboy84

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This is what Id do, but keep in mind this is based on my own experiences so is also generalised.

Id run the var at 50mg for the last 4wks, wks 7-10. If I was at 20% bfat Id lean more toward a cut, youll look better leaner than not. With those drugs a mild deficit would be sufficient, so itd be a sort of middle ground between a recomp and a more aggressive cut.

Good thing about doing a mild cut is youll rebound when you return to cruise mode and increase kcals back up to maintanence. This may mean you retain some blast fullness even though your doses have dropped.

I used to be all about recomping but now I think its inefficient compared to more traditional cut/bulk approaches. And you dont have to spend the whole time in deficit mode; in fact, not wishing to overcomplicate your options, but at 10wks you could even do 4wks in deficit, 2wks up to maintanence, 4 weeks at deficit, or any number of approaches. But, the main thing I think you should aim for is bodyfat reduction. Trust me, I think youll be happier looking leaner but maybe less muscle growth, than a bit more growth but less fat loss (Im obviously making some quite possibly wrong assumptions here).
I think you're right here, this is solid advice. I don't know why I didn't think of using the var at the end, I've just always thought of orals as cycle starters while other compounds build up. I can also avoid starting too many things at once by holding it off until the end.

I also need to put more thought into my diet through this. I have been about 200 to 300 cals below maintanence since the end of July while I have been slowly ramping up the intensity of my workouts. I can probably keep that up for the first 4 weeks and then go to a couple hundred above maintanence for the rest.
 
Nac

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Ahhh yeah well that changes things somewhat. If youve been in a deficit, mild as it is, for sometime then you are arguably at least a little primed for a rebound to a degree. For me the strategy would depend on my psychological state (could I perhaps handle going into an even more aggressive cut cos I want to lean out desperately...or am I over the caloric restriction and want, need, a break).

It depends what you really want. Obviously, what goal motivates us most at any point, will help us stay on track to reach it. If you would rather recomp than continue some form of cut, do that. But again, I think youll be ultimately happier looking leaner if youre at 20%.
 

Flyboy84

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Quick update. After this last post, I started seriously tracking macros. My diet wasn't as great as I thought. Since then I've been on an actual 300 cal deficit for about 6 weeks now and I'm seeing good results. My weight has remained roughly 200lbs, but I'm clearly leaner (even the wife was like, damn you're getting leaner). I think I'm at about 18% best guess. The TRT is definitely kicking in and I haven't felt this good in years.

The TRT bloods last week were better than I thought and I needed minimal tweaking. At 100mg per week, I was at low 400's the day before my next dose. The doc bumped me up to 120mg per week and said she'll see me at my physical in a few months. What all this means is- CHRISTMAS BULK BLAST!

Due to some time constraints and gear on hand, I've settled on this:

Test C- 120mg/wk
Test P- 80mg MWF (240 wk) 8 weeks
NPP- 80mg MWF (240 wk) 8 weeks
Mast P- 40mg MWF (120 wk) 8 weeks
Exem- 12.5 mg on inject days
Inhibit P- 2 caps per day

I'm still kicking around using the Var. If I use it, it'll be 50mg/day last 4 weeks.

I know these are light doses for a lot of you guys, but for my first cycle in 10 years I'm hoping to see some good results. I started yesterday, so I'll post updates.
 

Flyboy84

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A little over a week into it now. That bite from the prop is no joke. I'm hitting quads and glutes to keep a rotation. I'm afraid to hit delts because I won't be able to move my arms after.

I've made some minor adjustments to the cycle. After some thought, I started the var on week 2 because my amounts of everything else are fairly low and YOLO. I'll run that at 50mg until the end. I was also having some issues with my AI dose. 12.5 on inject days was too much and I felt my E was low last Friday. I'm now doing 6mg on inject days. Because I'm paranoid about gyno, I've also added 5mg of Nolvadex on inject days. New cycle looks like this:

Test C- 120mg/wk
Test P- 80mg MWF (240 wk) 8 weeks
NPP- 80mg MWF (240 wk) 8 weeks
Mast P- 40mg MWF (120 wk) 8 weeks
Var- 50mg per day wk 2-8
Exem- 6 mg on inject days
Inhibit P- 2 caps per day
Nolva- 5mg on inject days

So far, no major gains in strength or size. I'm on the heavier side of 200, on average 201 or 202 so maybe a couple pounds. I'm still maintaining about 200 to 300 cals below maintanence until i drop some more fat. My energy is definitely higher and I feel like I'm recovering from workouts much better. I hit squats today for the second time since starting and it felt a little easier today. Hopefully things start taking off next week.
 
StarScream66

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Sounds like a solid cycle, although I have to admit I have no idea about mast p dosing. What is exem? Is that an AI? I wouldn't use any type of anti-e on the cycle unless you need it. Estrogen has some very positive benefits with glucose uptake and GH release, so don't use it unless you feel you really need it. If you wanted to control the more negative estrogens like e2 you could take a product like SNS Inhibit-E which has lots of natural ingredients that act as AIs and estrogen reducers, but don't totally block all estrogen from the system.

You can read their page with all the info on it here:


Take some extra B6 to control the progesterone from the NPP and you should be go.

You can use code "starscream" to get 10% off those products.
 
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Hyde

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Sounds like a solid cycle, although I have to admit I have no idea about mast p dosing. What is exem? Is that an AI? I wouldn't use any type of anti-e on the cycle unless you need it. Estrogen has some very positive benefits with glucose uptake and GH release, so don't use it unless you feel you really need it. If you wanted to control the more negative estrogens like e2 you could take a product like SNS Inhibit-E which has lots of natural ingredients that act as AIs and estrogen reducers, but don't totally block all estrogen from the system.

You can read their page with all the info on it here:


Take some extra B6 to control the progesterone from the NPP and you should be go.

You can use code "starscream" to get 10% off those products.
Why would you recommend against a chemical you have never bothered to read up on? Literally the best AI there is, as it is suicidal (unlike anastrazole or letrozole) and doesn’t reduce estrogen by more than ~60% tops (ie; it’s not going to crush estrogen automatically like letro; you have to be stupid and abuse it).

You sound like an uninformed old-school guy here, SS. Smart as you are, I encourage you to read up on exemestane and THEN feel free to advise.

Of course estrogen is important, and obviously he should only use what he needs to stay balanced, but these AI doses are very reasonable (and AI need is individual anyway).
 
StarScream66

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Why would you recommend against a chemical you have never bothered to read up on? Literally the best AI there is, as it is suicidal (unlike anastrazole or letrozole) and doesn’t reduce estrogen by more than ~60% tops (ie; it’s not going to crush estrogen automatically like letro; you have to be stupid and abuse it).

You sound like an uninformed old-school guy here, SS. Smart as you are, I encourage you to read up on exemestane and THEN feel free to advise.

Of course estrogen is important, and obviously he should only use what he needs to stay balanced, but these AI doses are very reasonable (and AI need is individual anyway).
Well, you've got me there, I don't know a lot about the different AIs. I always will prefer and recommend SERMs over AIs. I'm just old fashioned in that way, you're right. I think estrogen has a lot of benefits, and cutting them down, even that low is a net negative, IMO.

I posted some very long and detailed posts about the benefits of leaving your estrogen alone while on a cycle, taken from William Llewellyn's Anabolics book in these two threads:



In short, estrogen has positive benefits for glucose utilization, increasing GH/IGF-1, increasing the concentration and density of androgen receptors, benefits to cardiovascular health and so forth.

People are so afraid of estrogen they start off their cycles with AIs right off the bat and I think that's crazy. There's no reason to use any type of anti-estrogen unless you start experiencing the negative side effects of it.

But, I will concede to you the fact you are right, I don't know enough about AIs.
 
Whisky

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Hey OP,

the boys above have you covered. I’m a fan of exem (as Hyde says, best ai to use) but I also agree with SS not to dose unless you need to. Many guys wouldn’t need an ai at those doses so given the benefits of estrogen I always take the approach to take the minimum required amount.

honestly i wouldn’t have bothered with the mast, its main use really is drying you out on a cut cycle where you are going sub 10%. At 18% you’re not going to see the benefits from it and it’s just another compound (plus 120mg a week is really a low dose).

The var is a good addition, I though NAC was spot on with his early advice tbh.

good luck bro
 
Hyde

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Well, you've got me there, I don't know a lot about the different AIs. I always will prefer and recommend SERMs over AIs. I'm just old fashioned in that way, you're right. I think estrogen has a lot of benefits, and cutting them down, even that low is a net negative, IMO.

I posted some very long and detailed posts about the benefits of leaving your estrogen alone while on a cycle, taken from William Llewellyn's Anabolics book in these two threads:



In short, estrogen has positive benefits for glucose utilization, increasing GH/IGF-1, increasing the concentration and density of androgen receptors, benefits to cardiovascular health and so forth.

People are so afraid of estrogen they start off their cycles with AIs right off the bat and I think that's crazy. There's no reason to use any type of anti-estrogen unless you start experiencing the negative side effects of it.

But, I will concede to you the fact you are right, I don't know enough about AIs.
I’m totally with you. Higher you can go, better you will grow. Better HDL, better muscle fullness, better joint comfort and less likelihood for injury/ability to train heavier safer.

My main concern would be the flip side of TOO high estro: you can retain too much water which will raise bp and cause edema, increased fat storage, you can lose libido or even erectile function if too high, and gyno control is a biggie.

At over 18% bodyfat, my assumption is OP aromatizes decently and he knows this from his TRT usage & past cycles.
 

Flyboy84

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Knowing what I know now, I would have upped the test, NPP, and mast to minimum 100mg eod. These were low doses mostly because it was my first real cycle in a long time and I didn't want to over do it. Every male in my family is also bald, so I don't want that to happen any faster than it needs to. It has also only been 2 weeks, so I should probably be more focused on diet and training and less on maximizing compounds.

I also started with an AI because I've been fighting off puffy nipples for a while. In the 18 or so months it took to get the VA to take my low t issues seriously, I lost a lot of muscle and gained a lot of bad weight. I'm not sure if it is gyno or just chest fat, but I don't want it to get any worse. I do seem to run higher e also. Even when my t levels were in the 100's, my e was mid normal.

On the bright side, I crushed a solid back day today. I've been off work this week so I've been hitting 2 a days. I'll hit legs again tomorrow with some shoulders thrown in.
 
Hyde

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Knowing what I know now, I would have upped the test, NPP, and mast to minimum 100mg eod. These were low doses mostly because it was my first real cycle in a long time and I didn't want to over do it. Every male in my family is also bald, so I don't want that to happen any faster than it needs to. It has also only been 2 weeks, so I should probably be more focused on diet and training and less on maximizing compounds.

I also started with an AI because I've been fighting off puffy nipples for a while. In the 18 or so months it took to get the VA to take my low t issues seriously, I lost a lot of muscle and gained a lot of bad weight. I'm not sure if it is gyno or just chest fat, but I don't want it to get any worse. I do seem to run higher e also. Even when my t levels were in the 100's, my e was mid normal.

On the bright side, I crushed a solid back day today. I've been off work this week so I've been hitting 2 a days. I'll hit legs again tomorrow with some shoulders thrown in.
Probably estrogenic chest fat - Google pseudogyno. 100s total t and normal estro is likely enough to have promoted that growth/storage on the chest. Gyno and/or pseudogyno, it’s common but never something we want.
 
Whisky

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Knowing what I know now, I would have upped the test, NPP, and mast to minimum 100mg eod. These were low doses mostly because it was my first real cycle in a long time and I didn't want to over do it. Every male in my family is also bald, so I don't want that to happen any faster than it needs to. It has also only been 2 weeks, so I should probably be more focused on diet and training and less on maximizing compounds.

I also started with an AI because I've been fighting off puffy nipples for a while. In the 18 or so months it took to get the VA to take my low t issues seriously, I lost a lot of muscle and gained a lot of bad weight. I'm not sure if it is gyno or just chest fat, but I don't want it to get any worse. I do seem to run higher e also. Even when my t levels were in the 100's, my e was mid normal.

On the bright side, I crushed a solid back day today. I've been off work this week so I've been hitting 2 a days. I'll hit legs again tomorrow with some shoulders thrown in.
if you don’t want to advance your likely baldness then defo drop the mast bro. Not much harder on the hairline than that
 
bad rad

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OP, really 200-300mg Test a week would work for your goals. Recomping isn't really doable at 20%. I'd take the time to drop the fat and learn how you respond to diet macros.
 
Nac

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Not to hijack the thread but I have a few questions NAC. I have been on TRT for 18 months. Last summer I added Primo and it was well suited for me. No sides. Slow and steady gains. Would def do again.

After that I tried var. I think i took two of the pills and had an immediate shed. Why? I was assuming that since the primo was a good option Var would be safer (and likely make me even leaner) [I now have a full bottle of var sitting in a closet and i cant use it]

2nd question - what does NPP do for a cycle like this?
Not sure on the var/shedding, I shave my head so literally havent been interested at all to research the whys and wherefores of hairloss on-cycle.

As to NPP...what cycle are you referring to? The OP or yours? NPP typically serves as the main anabolic compound, itll drive the bulk of your gainz (strength and lean mass). Generally, if you want a shorter cycle then NPP for 8-12 weeks, longer (12-16 weeks) Id go deca. Theres overlap there and its not a hard and fast rule but it makes sense.
 

Flyboy84

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It's the end of week 5 and I weighed in at 207 last night. In week three, I upped my test p dose to 150mg MWF. That only lasted a week as it turns out I'm pretty e sensitive and got some good gyno symptoms. I cut the test down to 120mg, dropped the exem for .625mg letro daily and have swapped the nolva for ralox at 50mg for the first week and 25mg (edit) ed since. This seems to have it back under control.

Overall, all my weight gain has been pretty lean with no fat or water. I upped my cal intake to about 3000 per day for the last couple weeks to try and add more weight. I'll probably bump that up again in a week or two. I've got 4 weeks left and the improvements have been really taking off this last week. Hopefully all the AIs and serms don't ruin them.
 
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