TRT or not ??

Bolex

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My last cycle was June 2019. Did PCT with clomid and nolvadex for 7 weeks but 6 months after that cycle my test and LH were very low!

Total test 165

free test - 3,31

LH - 1,0

FSH - 5,4

E2 - 24

SHGB - 39



I went to the endocrinologist, and he said the problem was the low LH levels and this was normal because of my "steroid abuse".

He placed me on 50mg/day clomid for the first 2 months, then reduced to 25mg/day for another 2 month and I did bloods again:

Total test - 663

Free test - 11,03

LH -7,0

FSH - 12,6

E2 - 53

SHGB - 45,9


He then lowered my clomid dose to 25mg every other day, and we retested after 3 months:

Total test - 571

Free test - 10,94

LH - 6,4

FSH - 10.0

E2 - 43

SHGB - 44,1

He asked me to stop the clomid and asked for new bloods after 3 months:

Total test - 292

Free test - 4,86

LH - 2,2

FSH - 5,7

E2 - 15,8

SHGB - 45,7

These are my actual numbers at 41 years old.

I have bee feeling like **** all the time and I think simptoms are much worse after I reduced the clomid bellow 25mg/day!
I still train 5 days a week, although sometimes I have to do only 4 days because I am always so tired, and I sleep at least 8 hours per night.
I am unmotivated, with depressed mood most of the time, have almost no libido, my strength is down a lot and I can't grow any muscle, (despite my knowledge in nutrition and training) actually I need to be really disciplined to try to keep my muscle mass.

I would love to hear what you think about this as I am going to see my endocrinologist in a couple of weeks as I feel quite lost at the moment should I ask for TRT or not?
 
Rocket3015

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My opinion is you will probably feel better, but you must remember it is a lifetime commitment.
 
bad rad

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If the Clomid worked why stop? I'm on TRT and love it usually but it does brings it's own issues. Clomid didn't work for me at all.
 

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My opinion is you will probably feel better, but you must remember it is a lifetime commitment.
I understand that, and I don't mind as long you have more benefits than risk. This is still such a controversial topic here in Europe and I don't know if my numbers justify TRT... they are certainly on the low end of the scale, and I am only 41 years old. I don't smoke, don't drink alcohol and have a pretty clean and healthy diet and I exercise regularly, so I don't know how I can improve those numbers further naturally
 

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If the Clomid worked why stop? I'm on TRT and love it usually but it does brings it's own issues. Clomid didn't work for me at all.
I agree with you, I am actually thinking of asking the endo to go on clomid again, its less hassle than test shots but, I don't know if it's the best treatment long term... Anyway, I think 25mg of clomid a day would do the trick for now.
 
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redtrek

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I would love to hear what you think about this as I am going to see my endocrinologist in a couple of weeks as I feel quite lost at the moment should I ask for TRT or not?
While the lab numbers have SOME relevance, the reason you'd go for TRT is for quality of life. So think about where you are now. Do you have what you need? Is your life stable? If not, are those thing at least improving? Or do you definitely need help?
In my opinion, if everyone were in the perfect situation, TRT wouldn't be very important. But the reality is that testosterone has a lot of potential to help men improve their situations and that can make up for the obvious downsides of injections and hormone disruption.
Just think carefully about how it might change your life for better or worse.
 
Rocket3015

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While the lab numbers have SOME relevance, the reason you'd go for TRT is for quality of life. So think about where you are now. Do you have what you need? Is your life stable? If not, are those thing at least improving? Or do you definitely need help?
In my opinion, if everyone were in the perfect situation, TRT wouldn't be very important. But the reality is that testosterone has a lot of potential to help men improve their situations and that can make up for the obvious downsides of injections and hormone disruption.
Just think carefully about how it might change your life for better or worse.
This is a very inciteful way to look at it !
 

blackirish36

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I agree with you, I am actually thinking of asking the endo to go on clomid again, its less hassle than test shots but, I don't know if it's the best treatment long term... Anyway, I think 25mg of clomid a day would do the trick for now.
I was on Clomid long term. I have some natural pituitary issues (empty sella syndrome and pituitary adenoma), and the Clomid at 25mg/day took me from about 150 TT to over 500. 50mg/day gave no added benefit. I was feeling relatively great for many months. Slowly my quality of life returned to baseline, despite maintaining my improved numbers. I attribute it to the estrogenic isomer of Clomid (zuclomiphene) building up in my system and overwhelming the effects of the enclomiphene isomer, which provides the positive aspects of the drug. Clomid can work long term, just pay attention to any deterioration of your well being.
 
robthomas

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My last cycle was June 2019. Did PCT with clomid and nolvadex for 7 weeks but 6 months after that cycle my test and LH were very low!

Total test 165

free test - 3,31

LH - 1,0

FSH - 5,4

E2 - 24

SHGB - 39



I went to the endocrinologist, and he said the problem was the low LH levels and this was normal because of my "steroid abuse".

He placed me on 50mg/day clomid for the first 2 months, then reduced to 25mg/day for another 2 month and I did bloods again:

Total test - 663

Free test - 11,03

LH -7,0

FSH - 12,6

E2 - 53

SHGB - 45,9


He then lowered my clomid dose to 25mg every other day, and we retested after 3 months:

Total test - 571

Free test - 10,94

LH - 6,4

FSH - 10.0

E2 - 43

SHGB - 44,1

He asked me to stop the clomid and asked for new bloods after 3 months:

Total test - 292

Free test - 4,86

LH - 2,2

FSH - 5,7

E2 - 15,8

SHGB - 45,7

These are my actual numbers at 41 years old.

I have bee feeling like **** all the time and I think simptoms are much worse after I reduced the clomid bellow 25mg/day!
I still train 5 days a week, although sometimes I have to do only 4 days because I am always so tired, and I sleep at least 8 hours per night.
I am unmotivated, with depressed mood most of the time, have almost no libido, my strength is down a lot and I can't grow any muscle, (despite my knowledge in nutrition and training) actually I need to be really disciplined to try to keep my muscle mass.

I would love to hear what you think about this as I am going to see my endocrinologist in a couple of weeks as I feel quite lost at the moment should I ask for TRT or not?
How do you know before 2019 your were not close to being low any way? Did you do blood work ??? I personal wouldn’t not want to be on trt at 41 your getting older anyway I’m 37 and my low test symptoms started at 30 for me .
Why haven’t you ran hcg ?
 

Bolex

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While the lab numbers have SOME relevance, the reason you'd go for TRT is for quality of life. So think about where you are now. Do you have what you need? Is your life stable? If not, are those thing at least improving? Or do you definitely need help?
In my opinion, if everyone were in the perfect situation, TRT wouldn't be very important. But the reality is that testosterone has a lot of potential to help men improve their situations and that can make up for the obvious downsides of injections and hormone disruption.
Just think carefully about how it might change your life for better or worse.
To be honest with you, once I stopped cycling I never felt like myself anymore. Two years have passed, and I still feel like ****, I am always either anxious or in depressed mood, tired, without motivation to do anything and no libido. I was hoping TRT could change this...
I have a beautiful wife, two kids that I love and a pretty comfortable life there is no apparent reason to feel like this
 

Bolex

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I was on Clomid long term. I have some natural pituitary issues (empty sella syndrome and pituitary adenoma), and the Clomid at 25mg/day took me from about 150 TT to over 500. 50mg/day gave no added benefit. I was feeling relatively great for many months. Slowly my quality of life returned to baseline, despite maintaining my improved numbers. I attribute it to the estrogenic isomer of Clomid (zuclomiphene) building up in my system and overwhelming the effects of the enclomiphene isomer, which provides the positive aspects of the drug. Clomid can work long term, just pay attention to any deterioration of your well being.
Thanks for sharing, that is good to know!
 

Bolex

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How do you know before 2019 your were not close to being low any way? Did you do blood work ??? I personal wouldn’t not want to be on trt at 41 your getting older anyway I’m 37 and my low test symptoms started at 30 for me .
Why haven’t you ran hcg ?
I have bloods from before I started cycling early 2017. Testosterone was not great either arround 300 maybe there was an issue already but I feel much worse since I cycled...

Early 2017 it looked like this:
Total test 300

Free test 9,2

LH - 3,6

E2 - 50

I did HCG the last 4 weeks of a 12 week cycle prior starting PCT with SERMS
 
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robthomas

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To be honest with you, once I stopped cycling I never felt like myself anymore. Two years have passed, and I still feel like ****, I am always either anxious or in depressed mood, tired, without motivation to do anything and no libido. I was hoping TRT could change this...
I have a beautiful wife, two kids that I love and a pretty comfortable life there is no apparent reason to feel like this
Trt will 100 % clean all that up after a good three months
 
ohiostate2827

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Find a good dr.. trt will help you...inject at least twice a week stay away from AI..focus on free T not total T..don't worry about estrogen..good luck
 

Bolex

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Find a good dr.. trt will help you...inject at least twice a week stay away from AI..focus on free T not total T..don't worry about estrogen..good luck
I will ask my endo if he is willing to prescribe it to me, if not I am going to see a Anti-aging clinic to see what they have to say!
 

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Find a good dr.. trt will help you...inject at least twice a week stay away from AI..focus on free T not total T..don't worry about estrogen..good luck
Man are you on TRT? Some guys NEED an AI. I’ve been on TRT for 8 years. I pin twice a week and I take .25 mgs of Arimidex twice a week. You have to have your estrogen in balance. Every guy is different. You can’t tell someone not to worry about estrogen.
 
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ohiostate2827

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Man are you on TRT? Some guys NEED an AI. I’ve been on TRT for 8 years. I pin twice a week and I take .25 mgs of Arimidex twice a week. You have to have your estrogen in balance. Every guy is different. You can’t tell someone not to worry about estrogen.
Trt 10yrs...estrogen isnt the issue if you are on a trt dose..its your protocol ....taking too much test or not enough even..or your injection frequency needs adjustments..most ppl dont give their body enough time to balance when on trt..
 

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Trt 10yrs...estrogen isnt the issue if you are on a trt dose..its your protocol ....taking too much test or not enough even..or your injection frequency needs adjustments..most ppl dont give their body enough time to balance when on trt..
That doesn’t work for everyone. I’ve been on TRT almost as long as you. I pin 50 mgs of test cyp twice a week and still need an AI to keep my E2 in the low 20’s.
 
ohiostate2827

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That doesn’t work for everyone. I’ve been on TRT almost as long as you. I pin 50 mgs of test cyp twice a week and still need an AI to keep my E2 in the low 20’s.
My E2 is in the 50s..by getting rid of the AI my libido improved body fat went down. Energy improved..took about 13 weeks to balance out once I stopped the AI..then adjusted test till I got symptom relief..give it a try can always go back to your AI
 
thebigt

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Trt 10yrs...estrogen isnt the issue if you are on a trt dose..its your protocol ....taking too much test or not enough even..or your injection frequency needs adjustments..most ppl dont give their body enough time to balance when on trt..
balance is the key, but unfortunately not everyone considers the mental aspects of using hormones, even trt.

most people encounter almost 100% improvement in mental aspects on trt....but almost every rule has it's exceptions
 

sammpedd88

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My E2 is in the 50s..by getting rid of the AI my libido improved body fat went down. Energy improved..took about 13 weeks to balance out once I stopped the AI..then adjusted test till I got symptom relief..give it a try can always go back to your AI
When my E2 is in the mod 30’s or higher, I feel like azz! I would give up my current protocol for nothing. My libido is through the roof (I turn 48 tomorrow) and my energy level is great. Still making great progress in the gym. You’re lucky you can do without an AI, myself on the other hand, has to have one!
 
thebigt

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When my E2 is in the mod 30’s or higher, I feel like azz! I would give up my current protocol for nothing. My libido is through the roof (I turn 48 tomorrow) and my energy level is great. Still making great progress in the gym. You’re lucky you can do without an AI, myself on the other hand, has to have one!

people think because they see some running higher doses that testosterone in small doses can't have life changing effects, you are perfect example of how powerful even small doses can be...it is sad that some would say trt doses are a waste because they won't 'create' the steroid effect body that a heavy cycle can create.

i was very happy to see you make this post, nice to see your protocal is treating you so well, keep it up!!!
 

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people think because they see some running higher doses that testosterone in small doses can't have life changing effects, you are perfect example of how powerful even small doses can be...it is sad that some would say trt doses are a waste because they won't 'create' the steroid effect body that a heavy cycle can create.

i was very happy to see you make this post, nice to see your protocal is treating you so well, keep it up!!!
Thanks BigT! BTW I saw the post you made in the “political” thread. You’re a damn good contributor to this forum bro! You better not get banned!
 
thebigt

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Thanks BigT! BTW I saw the post you made in the “political” thread. You’re a damn good contributor to this forum bro! You better not get banned!
means a lot i feel i am very close to being banned, and need all the support i can get....thing is i have no clue why a company owner and forum sponsor would choose to attack me like that...i even sent him a VERY civil PM and requested he explain why he chose to make that attack, I GOT NO RESPONSE!!!
 
Rocket3015

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I must have missed something >>>>>>>>>>>
 
ohiostate2827

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That doesn’t work for everyone. I’ve been on TRT almost as long as you. I pin 50 mgs of test cyp twice a week and still need an AI to keep my E2 in the low 20’s.
Just curious what's your shbg and FT?
 

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Just curious what's your shbg and FT?
My last labs in November 2020 showed my free t was 35.5 (9.0 - 46.0) and SHBG was 28 (10.0 - 57.0). Total T was 844 (264 - 916). I pin on Wednesday morning and Saturday afternoon. My labs were done Wednesday morning before my injection.
 
ohiostate2827

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My last labs in November 2020 showed my free t was 35.5 (9.0 - 46.0) and SHBG was 28 (10.0 - 57.0). Total T was 844 (264 - 916). I pin on Wednesday morning and Saturday afternoon. My labs were done Wednesday morning before my injection.
We are almost exactly the same lol
 
Rocket3015

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The human body is very complicated !!
 

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Finally, talked to my endocrinologist today, he agreed my lab results were not looking good for my age and reinforced with the complaints I mentioned here earlier...

Well he agreed on replacement therapy, but he suggested and prescribed Nebido with the following protocol until new bloods and reevaluation:

1st shot Nebido 1000mg wait 6 weeks, 2nd shot Nebido 1000mg wait 10 weeks, 3rd shot Nebido 1000mg wait 12 weeks followed by new lab work at week 10 after this 3rd injection for reevaluation of the treatment and adjust as necessary.

I know this is not a cycle is TRT purpose and he says he likes Nebido because it has no spikes and it's a longer lasting ester that requires fewer injections. Does anyone here have good experience with Nebido I've never used it, so I don't know what to expect...
 
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Rocket3015

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Finally, talked to my endocrinologist today, he agreed my lab results were not looking good for my age and reinforced with the complaints I mentioned here earlier...

Well he agreed on replacement therapy, but he suggested and prescribed Nebido with the following protocol until new bloods and reevaluation:

1st shot Nebido 1000mg wait 6 weeks, 2nd shot Nebido 1000mg wait 10 weeks, 3rd shot Nebido 1000mg wait 12 weeks followed by new lab work and reevaluation of the treatment and adjust as necessary.

I know this is not a cycle is TRT purpose and he says he likes Nebido because it has no spikes and it's a longer lasting easter that requires fewer injections. Does anyone here have good experience with Nebido I've never used it, so I don't know what to expect...
Sound interesting, but I do not know anyone who has been prescribe it ??
 
Rocket3015

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bad rad

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They use Aveed in the USA and it's 3cc vs 4cc for Nebido. These still cause testosterone spikes (just less so than other esters) after injection along with elevated E2. One study showed the injection maintains levels longer with low dose AI adjunct to therapy.
 

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I'm not sure that I like this... I think I might ask the doctor to make the change for testoviron or sustanon instead even if he only gives me 250mg every two or three weeks... It's a lot cheaper, and I know what to expect from it as I've done it before, and it's easier to find without prescription if you need extra for tweaking your protocol to twice a week or weekly injections instead of the usual 2 to 3-week interval they usually offer you.

What are your thoughts about this?
 
bad rad

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The Test Undecanoate preparations work really well for the intended purpose but they are very expensive. Test E or C is much more affordable and available as you pointed out. I prefer daily injects with either of the other esters for TRT.
 

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The Test Undecanoate preparations work really well for the intended purpose but they are very expensive. Test E or C is much more affordable and available as you pointed out. I prefer daily injects with either of the other esters for TRT.
I don't mind trying Test Undecanoate but I am afraid that the last couple of weeks before the next dose might be a pain in the ass... And if the doc is conservative he might not want to shorten the dosing interval. This is what I fear most about this protocol
 
bad rad

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The guideline is 10-13 week intervals so there is some leeway.
 
bad rad

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I was hopping that someone here had some experience with it and could give some feedback
I considered it but the price kept me away.
 
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TRT can be life-changing. I would not go on Clomid long-term (thats just me), I know too many people who have and it ends up w/ poor results. (Emotionally, physically, etc). Very powerful drugs these hormones, use the least amount to get to where you want to be. 100mg a week has me around 800-total a age 55, so all is good, I like keeping it in range). Good luck with your therapy!
 
Rocket3015

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TRT can be life-changing. I would not go on Clomid long-term (thats just me), I know too many people who have and it ends up w/ poor results. (Emotionally, physically, etc). Very powerful drugs these hormones, use the least amount to get to where you want to be. 100mg a week has me around 800-total a age 55, so all is good, I like keeping it in range). Good luck with your therapy!
Good advice for a long healthy life !
 

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Well got my first 4ml Nebido(1000mg) injection today. Will be getting the second shot in 6 weeks time. Wish me luck... lets see how this goes, I will report back and share my experience.
For now the only thing I can say is that it is quite painful looks like I've been kicked by a horse...
 
Rocket3015

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When will you get labs ?
 
bad rad

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Well got my first 4ml Nebido(1000mg) injection today. Will be getting the second shot in 6 weeks time. Wish me luck... lets see how this goes, I will report back and share my experience.
For now the only thing I can say is that it is quite painful looks like I've been kicked by a horse...
This is why the FDA didn't approve the 4cc version. Too many complaints of intense pain.

Hope it works out for you and fixes all your issues.
 
Rocket3015

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I have read the pain does not last long ...
 

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