TRT or Clomiphene?

freakishmiser

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I have been diagnosed hypogonadic and will be starting some sort of therapy. I'm a veteran under VA care. The option has been floated by the doc of TRT or Clomiphene (Clomid). Any ideas which might be more effective or which to try first? I am uncomfortable with depending upon a medication for the rest of my life, but life as it is sucks more every week. Just looking for ideas.
 

jtbull

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ok i have been on clomid 50mg 3x per week for years since the wife and i were thinking of having a baby. We had been trying over 6 years and ony have 1 miscarriage confirmed possibly two. I am 43 and she is 45 and the doc says i have been on it too long. It did work decent for me. I think my natural test level was like high 200s low 300s and the clomid gets me to about high 400s low 500s. . With test he said i will probably be doing 150 mg per week so i plan to "supplement" with extra test and maybe some equipiose, deca and or d-bol.

You did not mention your age, but that is a factor, also are you a big time weightlifter and the child issue. If there are no plans for kids and you weight lift you might as well take advantage of being offered the legal test. I dont know if the VA will try to stick you on androgel but you should be able to find a doctor you see once or twice a year that can do test. It seems more common these days. Good luck and keep us posted. Also since you mentioned the VA thank you for your service. Oh i also am prescribed 1mg of arimidex per day but my estrogen is like under 7 with it. I have been told that is way too low so i only actually take 1mg 3x per week. You will probalby be put on that as well.
 

freakishmiser

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Sorry, I'm 46. I have 4 kids, need no more, they range from 20 years old to 1 year old. I have been lifting pretty regularly for 5 years, and am feeling like I'm maxed out on growth (except for fat growth) with the low T issue. My natural levels look like yours or lower, but I had a gynecomastia issue last time in Afghanistan without anabolics, so I'm thinking that there's heavy aromatisation going on whenever my test goes up. Just got a confirmation lab in, next step is talk with the doc about how to supplement. My fear is that the VA will authorize test amounts that will not prove therapeutic, or will not authorize a proper AI. I'm considering supplementing Clomid with Arimistane, just to keep the original equipment functioning.
 

Spurfy

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Clomiphene at 12.5 mg ED or EOD.

Less is more with this drug.
 
bad rad

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Your response to Clomid will depend on whether you're primary (testes issues) or secondary (pituitary issues and more likely). If you're testes are impaired nothing will likely help much. Clomid with hCG works much better but you don't need typical dosing for sufficient effects. In your case due to age/life I'd go for injectable Test.
 
John Smeton

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you could try clomid for now, there s research on clomid showing it boosts testosterone levels if you dnt want to go the testosterone replacement therapy routeof injecting.

You could also go the testosterone replacement route, your call.

if you never injected , I think its a good idea to start with clomid and get bloodwork with it and see what your testosterone levels do.
 

CatSnake

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I have been diagnosed hypogonadic and will be starting some sort of therapy. I'm a veteran under VA care. The option has been floated by the doc of TRT or Clomiphene (Clomid). Any ideas which might be more effective or which to try first? I am uncomfortable with depending upon a medication for the rest of my life, but life as it is sucks more every week. Just looking for ideas.
do you happen to have your bloodwork? testosterone, Lh, Fsh, E2, prolactin?

clomid generally works pretty effectively at raising levels for most guys, but an aggressive TRT regimen could make you feel a lot better. depends on your treatment protocol, and likelihood of effectiveness, I suppose....


FWIW, clomid has been used in lieu of TRT clinically, generally around 25 mg/day.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html





.
 

jtbull

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do you happen to have your bloodwork? testosterone, Lh, Fsh, E2, prolactin?

clomid generally works pretty effectively at raising levels for most guys, but an aggressive TRT regimen could make you feel a lot better. depends on your treatment protocol, and likelihood of effectiveness, I suppose....


FWIW, clomid has been used in lieu of TRT clinically, generally around 25 mg/day.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html





.
If you were on clomid then say trt and took extra ( say you got 150 per week but took 200 per week) and thus ran out but had clomid would it cost you lots of gains if on trt if you went back on clomid for say 4, 8, 10, or 12 weeks? Curious so i wont have to buy "supplemental test" if possible, but dont want to lose gains if coming off the test will do that.
 

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If you were on clomid then say trt and took extra ( say you got 150 per week but took 200 per week) and thus ran out but had clomid would it cost you lots of gains if on trt if you went back on clomid for say 4, 8, 10, or 12 weeks? Curious so i wont have to buy "supplemental test" if possible, but dont want to lose gains if coming off the test will do that.
well, you're kinda talking about cycling on and off.

honestly, I'd see where clomid takes you..... I found that it took me from 300-ish to 750-ish. I felt better, but didn't really see huge bodycomp changes, energy, etc.
 
Cgkone

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If you were on clomid then say trt and took extra ( say you got 150 per week but took 200 per week) and thus ran out but had clomid would it cost you lots of gains if on trt if you went back on clomid for say 4, 8, 10, or 12 weeks? Curious so i wont have to buy "supplemental test" if possible, but dont want to lose gains if coming off the test will do that.
Clomid will help keep gains better than nothing. But were u happy on trt? If so then just get more test.
 
thebigt

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I have been diagnosed hypogonadic and will be starting some sort of therapy. I'm a veteran under VA care. The option has been floated by the doc of TRT or Clomiphene (Clomid). Any ideas which might be more effective or which to try first? I am uncomfortable with depending upon a medication for the rest of my life, but life as it is sucks more every week. Just looking for ideas.
if you live in or close to large city with a VA hospital then trt is great, if you depend on regular doctor at a VA clinic they are limited in what they can prescribe..if I want a prescription AI it would mean regular 70 mile visits each way to the nearest VA hospital to see a endo, but testosterone can be prescribed by my doctor at the local clinic. if you want shoot me a pm and we can chat. freakishmiser
 

jtbull

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well, you're kinda talking about cycling on and off.

honestly, I'd see where clomid takes you..... I found that it took me from 300-ish to 750-ish. I felt better, but didn't really see huge bodycomp changes, energy, etc.
On urologist precribed clomid now and have been for 6-7 years plus arimidex. 50mg 3x per week. gets me from 300ish to 500ish and he will be movign to test in january. I have been told once on trt you stay on it. You can blast and cruise, but there really is not a pct. I was just wondering though since i have doctor access to clomid and test if i could pile up the test and then use clomid for a period to keep what i have. I see it would be like cycling, but not totally. I know that i will be on 150mg every 7 days or 200 every 10 days depending on how the numbers he sees come in and he is aware i plan to run some extra. I figure if i go with a blast and can find the gear it will be about 400mg of test per week and 300 mg of eq. now i have been told i could take more eq like 600mg and 200 mg of test, but I am not sure if that is accurate as there is so much misinformation. With the legalities if i can get a nice build just from the "reseach" chemicals and precribed test that is what i plan. I have also been looking into a couple peptides like bac 157. I am looking for non site specific ones that help all over the body
 

CatSnake

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On urologist precribed clomid now and have been for 6-7 years plus arimidex. 50mg 3x per week. gets me from 300ish to 500ish and he will be movign to test in january. I have been told once on trt you stay on it. You can blast and cruise, but there really is not a pct. I was just wondering though since i have doctor access to clomid and test if i could pile up the test and then use clomid for a period to keep what i have. I see it would be like cycling, but not totally. I know that i will be on 150mg every 7 days or 200 every 10 days depending on how the numbers he sees come in and he is aware i plan to run some extra. I figure if i go with a blast and can find the gear it will be about 400mg of test per week and 300 mg of eq. now i have been told i could take more eq like 600mg and 200 mg of test, but I am not sure if that is accurate as there is so much misinformation. With the legalities if i can get a nice build just from the "reseach" chemicals and precribed test that is what i plan. I have also been looking into a couple peptides like bac 157. I am looking for non site specific ones that help all over the body
well, since you already have a compromised HPTA, I don't think you'd have good luck with PCT.

with that being said, I love being on TRT (test c-200 mg/wk, HCG and Arimidex). to be fair, that's not really "TRT," but puts most guys above the normal range. adding in something like MK677 would be a great addition, IMO.

just realize that with the blast and cruising you will need to manage a lot of your own bloodwork,, etc., otherwise your doc might have to document what you're doing, and maybe even discontinue your care. (FWIW, I go to the VA, and make sure my testosterone levels are down in their range before my yearly appts. they use a range of something like 200-800, so my normal TRT would put me well above that (1,100-ish).)
 

jtbull

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well, since you already have a compromised HPTA, I don't think you'd have good luck with PCT.

with that being said, I love being on TRT (test c-200 mg/wk, HCG and Arimidex). to be fair, that's not really "TRT," but puts most guys above the normal range. adding in something like MK677 would be a great addition, IMO.

just realize that with the blast and cruising you will need to manage a lot of your own bloodwork,, etc., otherwise your doc might have to document what you're doing, and maybe even discontinue your care. (FWIW, I go to the VA, and make sure my testosterone levels are down in their range before my yearly appts. they use a range of something like 200-800, so my normal TRT would put me well above that (1,100-ish).)
I have heard about the mk and if i find a good source am thinking of trying it or a GH peptide depending on what cost is better. what exactly does HCG do on HRT? That is one thing i never really understood. I thought it was a pct for the longest time.
 

CatSnake

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I have heard about the mk and if i find a good source am thinking of trying it or a GH peptide depending on what cost is better. what exactly does HCG do on HRT? That is one thing i never really understood. I thought it was a pct for the longest time.
well, HCG does help prep you for PCT, so you're not wrong there.

HCG maintains testicular function, so it can help preserve fertility. It can also maintain some other hormonal production (pregnolone, DHEA, etc),

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/297449-info-hcg.html#post5870442






.
 
thebigt

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well, since you already have a compromised HPTA, I don't think you'd have good luck with PCT.

with that being said, I love being on TRT (test c-200 mg/wk, HCG and Arimidex). to be fair, that's not really "TRT," but puts most guys above the normal range. adding in something like MK677 would be a great addition, IMO.

just realize that with the blast and cruising you will need to manage a lot of your own bloodwork,, etc., otherwise your doc might have to document what you're doing, and maybe even discontinue your care. (FWIW, I go to the VA, and make sure my testosterone levels are down in their range before my yearly appts. they use a range of something like 200-800, so my normal TRT would put me well above that (1,100-ish).)
damn...I guess I need to make that 75 mile each way trip to VA hospital....my clinic doc has me down to 200mg every 2 weeks[I use 100mg weekly]. no hcg or AI from clinic doc.
 

CatSnake

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damn...I guess I need to make that 75 mile each way trip to VA hospital....my clinic doc has me down to 200mg every 2 weeks[I use 100mg weekly]. no hcg or AI from clinic doc.
my bad-I'm not on TRT through the VA, I go through Entourage Hormones. the VA wouldn't cover me, as I was right at the bottom of the "normal" range.... as it is, I am more than happy to pay for the care I get now.
 

jtbull

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Entourage Hormones price seems a bit high. I get that its all legit, but taking blood work out it seems the test should be about $10 or less per shot and the other two compounds might be over priced. I guess they can do that when they run a clinic, but it seems prices should be a bit more reasonable if most is going to be self medication through the mail. If i can find a solid one for like $50-70 a month plus a sign up i would probably do it.
 

freakishmiser

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do you happen to have your bloodwork? testosterone, Lh, Fsh, E2, prolactin?
Sorry for delayed response.
03Dec2018 test=119.67 ng/dl, 15Oct2018 test=65.51
20Nov2018 FSH=4.1 mIU/ml
20Nov2018 LH=2.8 mIU/ml
20Nov2018 Prolactin=7.55 NG/mL
20Nov2018 PSA=.832 ng/ml

Would you advise the use of an AI with Clomid?
 

CatSnake

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Entourage Hormones price seems a bit high. I get that its all legit, but taking blood work out it seems the test should be about $10 or less per shot and the other two compounds might be over priced. I guess they can do that when they run a clinic, but it seems prices should be a bit more reasonable if most is going to be self medication through the mail. If i can find a solid one for like $50-70 a month plus a sign up i would probably do it.
well, FWIW, you can also use a FSA/HSA account through work to pay for your out of pocket expenses.

something to think about....
 

CatSnake

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Sorry for delayed response.
03Dec2018 test=119.67 ng/dl, 15Oct2018 test=65.51
20Nov2018 FSH=4.1 mIU/ml
20Nov2018 LH=2.8 mIU/ml
20Nov2018 Prolactin=7.55 NG/mL
20Nov2018 PSA=.832 ng/ml

Would you advise the use of an AI with Clomid?
I guess I don't know what your E2 is, so it's hard to say yes. tanking your E2 levels is pretty uncomfortable, based off my experience. my best analogy is that it was like I had sandpaper in my joints....

you don't happen to have the ranges of your tests available, do you?
 
John Smeton

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damn...I guess I need to make that 75 mile each way trip to VA hospital....my clinic doc has me down to 200mg every 2 weeks[I use 100mg weekly]. no hcg or AI from clinic doc.
I dont use hcg and an ai with 150 mgs usually. My trt doc never prescibed it. I have another doc a dermatologist who is very open minded and friendly andf writes me scripts , hcg, clomid. Sometimes ill get hcg and use it just because its healthy to get the benefits of it.
 

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I tested several times 2 years ago and at 35 my test levels were 237 and 254... I took clomid for 8 weeks and tested again and my test was at 543 I believe, I had posted the bloodwork on here... Now I am going to get bloodwork here soon as I have not been on clomid since nor have I used any anabolics for 2 years... if it comes back with low test levels would it be worth trying HCG as I never got this option from my doc?
 

CatSnake

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I tested several times 2 years ago and at 35 my test levels were 237 and 254... I took clomid for 8 weeks and tested again and my test was at 543 I believe, I had posted the bloodwork on here... Now I am going to get bloodwork here soon as I have not been on clomid since nor have I used any anabolics for 2 years... if it comes back with low test levels would it be worth trying HCG as I never got this option from my doc?
maybe....

since the clomid worked when you were on it, then your testes do have some responsiveness to LH and FSH. however, there's the issue with why you weren't able to maintain that on your own....

and HCG is technically suppressive, as it replaces your own LH for the time being. so if you did a course of HCG, then you'd need clomid after that, as well. and I would also keep an AI handy, in case the HCG or clomid raises your E2 (make sure you get your E2 levels along with testosterone, LH and FSH).
 

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yeah I am curios what my bloodwork will be after no anabolics for 2 years. Not being able to maintain higher test levels on my own is bothersome
 

CatSnake

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yeah I am curios what my bloodwork will be after no anabolics for 2 years. Not being able to maintain higher test levels on my own is bothersome
I was in a similar boat.

I was at the bottom range of "healthy" levels, but too high to get on TRT through my dr/insurance. clomid brought me up, but only when I was on clomid (which I was sourcing on my own, and not through my dr). and I never really felt much better on clomid, for some reason, either...

once I got on TRT through Entourage, it simplified it all for me.
 

freakishmiser

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Yeah, well, I guess that my endocrinologist is not very knowledgeable about this. He has not ordered E2 levels, has no idea where my Aromatase enzyme levels stand, but has prescribed Clomiphene and when I asked about an AI, he said he had no experience with that. Am I dealing with the wrong doctor? My previous experience with gyno tells me that aromatase might be an issue, plus I'm gaining belly fat without any changes in activity and losing all motivation.

Regarding ranges, all numbers were well within the ranges with the exception of LH, which was within range but low end. That led me toward Clomid for therapy, currently I'm using 50 mg Arimistane ED and plan to continue that.
 
thebigt

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I can relate to you younger guys being hesitant about starting testosterone therapy...I was close to 50 when I started so it was a no brainer for me, lots of ups and downs over the last 10+ years. it sucks being dependent on a prescription drug, sometimes I feel at the mercy of doctors who are often times less informed about trt than I am.
 
bad rad

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Yeah, well, I guess that my endocrinologist is not very knowledgeable about this. He has not ordered E2 levels, has no idea where my Aromatase enzyme levels stand, but has prescribed Clomiphene and when I asked about an AI, he said he had no experience with that. Am I dealing with the wrong doctor? My previous experience with gyno tells me that aromatase might be an issue, plus I'm gaining belly fat without any changes in activity and losing all motivation.

Regarding ranges, all numbers were well within the ranges with the exception of LH, which was within range but low end. That led me toward Clomid for therapy, currently I'm using 50 mg Arimistane ED and plan to continue that.
I would try and use an Urologist instead. Endocrinologist deal with hormone disorders and low testosterone doesn't fit their narrow viewpoint normally since it's "a part of aging."

Clomid tends to make people feel bad in general. Although it helps, it is still a synthetic estrogen and can cause E2 symptoms to a lesser degree. Less is more with Clomid.
 

jtbull

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sounds like a few trt guys here. So is HCG something every now and then thrown in or part of the regimen? Even if self medicated. I have been wondering about it. I notice most of the hrt factories usually prescribe it.
 

freakishmiser

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Getting appointments with VA providers is tricky, at best. I've seen a VA urologist, but would probably wait a month more for an appointment, then I don't even know how they would handle the prescription process. Guaranteed it would bet a process.

Hoping for the best, I paid for the Clomid and am 2 days into the prescription. No real positive or negatives to the effect yet, except last night I slept, but my Fitbit couldn't even track it as sleep and I woke up soaked in sweat from head to toe, like you could wring sweat out of my sheets, and too wet to even consider going back to sleep. Yuck! Is this typical? I don't know if I can wash sheets every night.
 

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Getting appointments with VA providers is tricky, at best. I've seen a VA urologist, but would probably wait a month more for an appointment, then I don't even know how they would handle the prescription process. Guaranteed it would bet a process.

Hoping for the best, I paid for the Clomid and am 2 days into the prescription. No real positive or negatives to the effect yet, except last night I slept, but my Fitbit couldn't even track it as sleep and I woke up soaked in sweat from head to toe, like you could wring sweat out of my sheets, and too wet to even consider going back to sleep. Yuck! Is this typical? I don't know if I can wash sheets every night.
possibly an E2 issue.... did you have that checked ahead of time?

wat does of clomid are you currently taking?
 

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No E2 check, doc doesn’t even know what to do with it. 50 mg clomiphene. As I said before, taking 100 mg ED arimistane
 
bad rad

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Getting appointments with VA providers is tricky, at best. I've seen a VA urologist, but would probably wait a month more for an appointment, then I don't even know how they would handle the prescription process. Guaranteed it would bet a process.

Hoping for the best, I paid for the Clomid and am 2 days into the prescription. No real positive or negatives to the effect yet, except last night I slept, but my Fitbit couldn't even track it as sleep and I woke up soaked in sweat from head to toe, like you could wring sweat out of my sheets, and too wet to even consider going back to sleep. Yuck! Is this typical? I don't know if I can wash sheets every night.
This sounds like hot flashes from the Clomid. They might eventually pass but I'd cut back the dosage.
 

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Thanks �� I’ll reexamine my dosage. No further trouble, though. This stuff doesn’t seem to help with motivation either, something I would hope to see out of increased test.
 

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I've been on clomid now going on 18 months at 50mg EOD, due to severe azoospermia. I learned that HCG nor Clomid truly recovered my count, it had more to do with needing a lot longer than normal to get my count back up to the 80 million range (15 months off TRT). I will say this Clomid taken for as long as I have at this dose is not recommended. When I was on TRT I had energy, sex drive, could sleep great, great gains in the gym. On Clomid I have lost my sex drive, no energy, sleep sucks now, etc. I'm going into my doctor's office within the next couple of weeks and will plead to come off Clomid and start taking a very novel drug called Natesto. Seems like no one on this board seems to know much about Natesto but from what I've read you get the TRT replacement while keeping your fertility within the normal range. HCG isn't powerful enough for me, I needed FSH just to kickstart my pituitary. I wish you well but I would look into Natesto vs. Clomid for raising test levels, less side effects, & preserving fertility. You might look into HCG but I was one of the rare birds where no matter how much HCG it just converted to estrogen & never saw positive effects from it.
 

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Thank you for sharing your experience. I am seeing that my hopes to stay "natural" as possible with Clomid might have been less educated, Injectable test seems to trump climid for use other than PCT. I guess I can keep a hold of it in case of a possible needed PCT from TRT (you know, government shutdowns and all).
 
bad rad

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Thanks �� I’ll reexamine my dosage. No further trouble, though. This stuff doesn’t seem to help with motivation either, something I would hope to see out of increased test.
Long term dosages of 12.5mg 3x weekly are sometime effective. Too much Clomid creates negative feedback and you'll might stop responding to it.
 

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Taken under advisement. Obviously the doc I chose to go with was unfamiliar with the issues, and I'll have to redirect to TRT, keeping the Clomid on hand just in case. I'll stay with it for now, until I can get the VA to prescribe a treatment plan through a urologist. Thank you.
 
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I've been on clomid now going on 18 months at 50mg EOD, due to severe azoospermia. I learned that HCG nor Clomid truly recovered my count, it had more to do with needing a lot longer than normal to get my count back up to the 80 million range (15 months off TRT). I will say this Clomid taken for as long as I have at this dose is not recommended. When I was on TRT I had energy, sex drive, could sleep great, great gains in the gym. On Clomid I have lost my sex drive, no energy, sleep sucks now, etc. I'm going into my doctor's office within the next couple of weeks and will plead to come off Clomid and start taking a very novel drug called Natesto. Seems like no one on this board seems to know much about Natesto but from what I've read you get the TRT replacement while keeping your fertility within the normal range. HCG isn't powerful enough for me, I needed FSH just to kickstart my pituitary. I wish you well but I would look into Natesto vs. Clomid for raising test levels, less side effects, & preserving fertility. You might look into HCG but I was one of the rare birds where no matter how much HCG it just converted to estrogen & never saw positive effects from it.
no wonder no one is talking about natesto….the price is insane!!!
 

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Natesto is just nasally administered test. 3X per day you have to squirt it up both nostrils. IMHO, injectable should still be cheapest and best.
 
thebigt

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Natesto is just nasally administered test. 3X per day you have to squirt it up both nostrils. IMHO, injectable should still be cheapest and best.
prescription testosterone is incredibly inexpensive compared to natesto….that shyt is unreal!!!
 

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when androsteindione ( the banned one from the 1990s) first was used I think the east germans did it with a nasal spray.
 

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No E2 check, doc doesn’t even know what to do with it. 50 mg clomiphene. As I said before, taking 100 mg ED arimistane
you might just wanna get the test done on your own.... privateMDlabs or DiscountedLabs.

FWIW, I had to fight a lot with my VA doc about checking my testosterone and E2, so I do it on my own or thru my TRT doc
 
thebigt

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you might just wanna get the test done on your own.... privateMDlabs or DiscountedLabs.

FWIW, I had to fight a lot with my VA doc about checking my testosterone and E2, so I do it on my own or thru my TRT doc
testosterone no issue...e2 no go. my doc thru the va has just retired, i'm afraid I am going to get assigned a female doc and things will really go downhill.


females be it nurses or doc's just plain suck for anything testosterone related. if I get assigned a female doc i'm going to request a male, then I will probably really be screwed since the nurses at my out patient clinic are all females and they wiil conspire against me...hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, lol.
 
NoAddedHmones

NoAddedHmones

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testosterone no issue...e2 no go. my doc thru the va has just retired, i'm afraid I am going to get assigned a female doc and things will really go downhill.


females be it nurses or doc's just plain suck for anything testosterone related. if I get assigned a female doc i'm going to request a male, then I will probably really be screwed since the nurses at my out patient clinic are all females and they wiil conspire against me...hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, lol.
You are showing signs of Toxic Masculinity brah - better go get tested. :popworm:
 
thebigt

thebigt

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You are showing signs of Toxic Masculinity brah - better go get tested. :popworm:
no need to be tested...I am 100%

female docs have toxic feminism
 

hardtoget

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My insurance surprisingly covers Natesto after going through a prior-athorization. After my wife goes through the retrieval process for IVF I plan on freezing some sperm and then going on Natesto. I still swear this effects the body differently than androgel or injectable test.
 

jtbull

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Good luck. We went through IVF. ( not where they grow the embryo just insert my sperm into her) and did about 4-5 rounds and sadly all we had to show was one miscarriage. Morons kill their kids or neglect them and people who want kids cant have them.
 

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