TRT ( long cycle) PCT log for future reference

kafahmy

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Hello,

AGE: 29
Weigh: 210lbs
Waist : 36


Long story short, been on TRT for 12 month (Test Cypionate 100-180mg/week + HCG + Arimidex) . It has never been easy for me to dial in as I am an Arimidex over responder ( even at .125mg Arimidex I tend to crash my E2).

At this point, I decided to come off before it's too late (12 month on TRT won't make recovery easy anyways) and try to figure out why I was low before TRT at the first place. If that doesn't work out than I am on TRT for life and I'll have to live with it.

I have been reading about PCT for a while and the information is all over the place. Thousands of protocols but very few logs so I decided to record my experience for anyone who is going throw the same thing.

for PCT, I have seen people swearing by Torem, others using only Nolvadex or Clomid. I have seem people combining Clomid and Nolva while other think it's a bad idea. Some add Aromisin and some advocate against it but again with no real logs and first hand experience.

So please feel free to suggest any modification in my protocol ONLY IF you have a first hand experience with PCTs. your opinions are greatly appreciated.
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Pre PCT : 400iU hcg/ Daily for 14-21 days
* the lenght of my HCG phase will depend on the E2 , if high E2 symptoms occurs than I'll stick to only 2 weeks. I can't risk using Arimidex and crashing my E2 during the recovery phase...Chime in if you have a better idea


PCT : Clomid 50/50/25/25
Nolvadex: 20/20/10/10/10/10
Supplements: Multivitamin/ZMA/Vitamin D/ Fish oil

Blood work 4 weeks following PCT


WISH ME LUCK
 

kafahmy

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Day3 ( one week since last T injection):
HCG 400iu

+ve: good mood, good energy, workouts at the gym of the same intensity , spontaneous erections are coming back and morning woods too.

-ve: Scortum starting to tight up which I attribute to high estrogen symptom. No water retention, no itchy nipples so I'll wait as long as I could before I introduce some adex (maybe quarter of the 0.125 capsule and see what happens)

Note: from what I've read the +ve above are common while the ester clears the system, I know once I introduce the clomid and Nolva that things won't be as good.
 
RickyBlobby

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I would start your SERM at least 2 weeks BEFORE your last pin. Your pituitary gland has been asleep for 12 months and will take a long time to wake up. HCG does not do this.

Personally I would recommend starting clomid at 50mg a day 2 weeks before your last pin, then continue at 50mg until 4 weeks after your last pin, then do 25/25/12.5/12.5.

I know that's a lot of clomid but it is unknown exactly how long it will take your pituitary to wake up and it is better to err on the side of caution.

I have been on TRT for 2 years and decided to "jump start" my system just in case I have to come off. I started taking clomid while still pinning, at only 20mg/day, and about 2 weeks later my nuts started firming up and growing some. It is closer to 4 weeks now and they still aren't full size, but then again I am only on 20mg/ day.

I am also on 40mg of sarms by the way. Which is why I want to limit the amount of clomid I take, don't want too much crap in my system at one time.
 

kafahmy

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Ricky, thanks for jumping in man. I have been using HCG while on TRT so luckily I am not experiencing any testicle atrophy that I can tell of.
From all the posts I've read it's better to start the SERM 2-3 weeks post last Test injection to allow the ester to clear the system(not sure about the scientific reason behind it but it seems to be the way to go). However, I think you may be right when it comes to extending the clomid phase. I may add another 2 weeks at 12.5mg .

FYI SARMs are supprisive, ignore the information promoted on the SARMS sponsored pages. there main goal is to increase sales!
If I were you, I would add some peptides ( cjc 1295 w/o DAC and Ipamorelin ) instead.

Good luck man and keep us posted.
 
RickyBlobby

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I iknow sarms are suppressive, but the clomid overpowers the suppression.

And what you've read is wrong, unfortunately.

I was over on professional muscle and one of the pros recommended clomid on cycle to fight suppression. It made sense to me soI did a lot of research and came to the conclusion it indeed worked.

So I ran a moderate cycle (50mg dbol, 400mg primo, 25mg clomid) for 10 weeks and had bloods done.... My T level was within normal range (450). The c lomid kept me from getting suppressed.


So...... The sooner you start the clomid, the sooner you will recover, whether or not you have TRT level test in your system does not matter.
 

kafahmy

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I iknow sarms are suppressive, but the clomid overpowers the suppression.

And what you've read is wrong, unfortunately.

I was over on professional muscle and one of the pros recommended clomid on cycle to fight suppression. It made sense to me soI did a lot of research and came to the conclusion it indeed worked.
r.
Isn't this what HCG is for ? mimicking LH to reverse primary hypogonadism ( testicle failure) while the SERMS works on restoring the HTPA and reverse tge secondary hypogonadism ?

I have seen people using clomid the way you did but only because they couldn't get their hands on HCG .

I am no expert so I might be wrong though
 
RickyBlobby

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Isn't this what HCG is for ? mimicking LH to reverse primary hypogonadism ( testicle failure) while the SERMS works on restoring the HTPA and reverse tge secondary hypogonadism ?

I have seen people using clomid the way you did but only because they couldn't get their hands on HCG .

I am no expert so I might be wrong though
SERMS stimulate the entire HTPA, from the pituitary gland up. HCG mimicks a hormone secreted by the pituitary gland, therefore the body tells the pituitary it does not need to produce I and therefore the pituitary goes to sleep on HCG. But not on clomid/ torem.
 

BBiceps

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I did the same a few years ago, was on 200mg cyp for 2,5 years but wanted another kid and had the get off.

I did Clomid for 8 weeks (first week 50mg and the rest 25mg) and HCG 2xweek at 250mg for the first month. After the first month I was in the 400’s and after the second month I was in the 600’s and after that my wife got pregnant real fast. :)
 

kafahmy

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SERMS stimulate the entire HTPA, from the pituitary gland up. HCG mimicks a hormone secreted by the pituitary gland, therefore the body tells the pituitary it does not need to produce I and therefore the pituitary goes to sleep on HCG. But not on clomid/ torem.
well my clomid is on the way so I'll start it as soon as it comes, it won't heart to add another week of clomid anyways . thx and let us know how ur recovery goes.
 

kafahmy

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I did the same a few years ago, was on 200mg cyp for 2,5 years but wanted another kid and had the get off.

I did Clomid for 8 weeks (first week 50mg and the rest 25mg) and HCG 2xweek at 250mg for the first month. After the first month I was in the 400’s and after the second month I was in the 600’s and after that my wife got pregnant real fast. :)
glad to hear that you were able to recover after such a long time! did your levels remain at the 600s after stopping clomid? or did you jump back to trt ?
 

BBiceps

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glad to hear that you were able to recover after such a long time! did your levels remain at the 600s after stopping clomid? or did you jump back to trt ?
No, I recovered well so I haven’t felt the need for TRT, maybe in the future but not now. My test level stays around 500 but I do 1 or 2 8 week 25mg ed Clomid “cycles” a years, it gets my test level up to low 900’s, I like Clomid, it treats me well :)

Btw I get all my stuff from the Dr and I do regular blood tests. If you find a helpful Dr like I have it helps a lot.
 

kafahmy

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No, I recovered well so I haven’t felt the need for TRT, maybe in the future but not now. My test level stays around 500 but I do 1 or 2 8 week 25mg ed Clomid “cycles” a years, it gets my test level up to low 900’s, I like Clomid, it treats me well :)

Btw I get all my stuff from the Dr and I do regular blood tests. If you find a helpful Dr like I have it helps a lot.
those are hard to find bro, i went to an endo when i decided to come off and she told me all i have to do is taper down my dose gradually each week and just wait for 2 years until my body gets back to it's normal balance. Never been back of course
 

BBiceps

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those are hard to find bro, i went to an endo when i decided to come off and she told me all i have to do is taper down my dose gradually each week and just wait for 2 years until my body gets back to it's normal balance. Never been back of course
Lol, sorry about that, that’s an horrible Dr. luckily my Dr was more helpful than that and he’s a big part to why I recovered so quickly.

Try a few others, do some research on different Dr’s in the area, it’ll be worth it in the end.
 

kafahmy

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I would start your SERM at least 2 weeks BEFORE your last pin. Your pituitary gland has been asleep for 12 months and will take a long time to wake up. HCG does not do this.

Personally I would recommend starting clomid at 50mg a day 2 weeks before your last pin, then continue at 50mg until 4 weeks after your last pin, then do 25/25/12.5/12.5.

I know that's a lot of clomid but it is unknown exactly how long it will take your pituitary to wake up and it is better to err on the side of caution.

I have been on TRT for 2 years and decided to "jump start" my system just in case I have to come off. I started taking clomid while still pinning, at only 20mg/day, and about 2 weeks later my nuts started firming up and growing some. It is closer to 4 weeks now and they still aren't full size, but then again I am only on 20mg/ day.

I am also on 40mg of sarms by the way. Which is why I want to limit the amount of clomid I take, don't want too much crap in my system at one time.
Ricky, when u said starting the Clomid 2 weeks prior to the last pin, u were referring to the HCG or test ?
Also why no Nolva with the clomid ? i know they both do yhe same thing but via different mechanism
 

kafahmy

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started clomid and Nolva yesterday (will update weekly)
i'm dosing them together in the morning

Day 2 PCT (50 clomid/ 20 nolva)
cjc 1295 no dac/ ipamorelin (100mcg each/ 3 times day)

Pros: no emotional sides yet (my biggest fear)

Cons: tiredness, low sex drive, water retention

Notes: will take the SERMs before bed and see if the fatigue issue resolves.
I'm not expecting to feel great on PCT anyways so i'm not disappointed.
i may do basic blood work (test and estradiol) 2 weeks into PCT to ensure that my SERM is not bunk.
 

kafahmy

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Day 3 PCT (quik update)

I realized that my fatigue goes away in the afternoon which makes me think that the Serms makes me tired. So I Skipped morning Clomid dose (will do before bed) and did only Nolva in the morning and my fatigue got waaay better. Starting tomorrow, I will do both Clomid and Nolva before bed and will keep it this way.for the next 6 weeks

On the +ve side: I got few spontaneous erections and morning woods & last night I had Porn start loads ..my girl seemed happy with the quantity too :) so I'm pretty sure my clomid is legit. All going well so far hopefully lipido will come back soon.
 

kafahmy

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End of Week 1 PCT:
SERMS: clomid 50, Nolva 20
Peptides: CJC w/o Dac, Ipamoreline
Supporting Supplements: Multi Vitamin, fish oil, zinc, vitamin C

My takes for Week 1:
-Can't really tell if I am heading toward HPTA recovery or not. Some days are better than others. but overall I'd say average.
-Lipido is low, erections are fine though.
-Energy is good on some days but really bad on others.
-Definitely losing muscle mass and packing some fat, i up-ed my protein intake and trying to drag myslef to the gym and train each body part once/week.
-My face broke out like crazy the first 2 days of my PCT(I am not prone to acne at all) but now it stopped and it's healing.

Overall it's still too early in my recovery journey and from what I've read first 2 weeks are the worst...

In case anyone is following this log, is it normal to have those ups and downs in terms of energy, mood, lipido ? or am I suppose to feel an increment improvement in those areas ?...show your support people :)
 

BBiceps

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End of Week 1 PCT:
SERMS: clomid 50, Nolva 20
Peptides: CJC w/o Dac, Ipamoreline
Supporting Supplements: Multi Vitamin, fish oil, zinc, vitamin C

My takes for Week 1:
-Can't really tell if I am heading toward HPTA recovery or not. Some days are better than others. but overall I'd say average.
-Lipido is low, erections are fine though.
-Energy is good on some days but really bad on others.
-Definitely losing muscle mass and packing some fat, i up-ed my protein intake and trying to drag myslef to the gym and train each body part once/week.
-My face broke out like crazy the first 2 days of my PCT(I am not prone to acne at all) but now it stopped and it's healing.

Overall it's still too early in my recovery journey and from what I've read first 2 weeks are the worst...

In case anyone is following this log, is it normal to have those ups and downs in terms of energy, mood, lipido ? or am I suppose to feel an increment improvement in those areas ?...show your support people :)
When I got off I didn’t feel any difference at all, actually felt pretty good, I lost a little strength and size over time but nothing drastic all at once.

I would not do what you do for PCT but I’m no Dr, I did have a Dr help me get off though. If you don’t have one find one.
 
RickyBlobby

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Ricky, when u said starting the Clomid 2 weeks prior to the last pin, u were referring to the HCG or test ?
Also why no Nolva with the clomid ? i know they both do yhe same thing but via different mechanism
I am on TRT still. I just started clomid right in the middle of it and my balls got big again. Which tells me my HTPA is up and running while still taking testosterone injections.

Sorry I didn't see this earlier.
 

kafahmy

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When I got off I didn’t feel any difference at all, actually felt pretty good, I lost a little strength and size over time but nothing drastic all at once.

I would not do what you do for PCT but I’m no Dr, I did have a Dr help me get off though. If you don’t have one find one.

Did you tapper down your dose over the weeks ?
 

kafahmy

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I am on TRT still. I just started clomid right in the middle of it and my balls got big again. Which tells me my HTPA is up and running while still taking testosterone injections.

Sorry I didn't see this earlier.

I'm starting to miss being on TRT lol
 

kafahmy

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End of Week 2 PCT:
SERMS: clomid 50, Nolva 20

Supporting Supplements: Multi Vitamin, fish oil, zinc, vitamin C

I had to drop clomid to 25mg in the middle of my second week due to some vision problems. Getting up in the morning and feeling like you are in a steam room wasn't fun.Nothing extreme and it was only in bright light and lasted for 15 minutes or so but it was enough to make me cut the dose in half. the Vision sides are gone now so I will keep it this way for 2 the next 2 weeks.

PROS: Everything feels normal, energy is back to normal, Works out are fine, no more muscle loss and water gain it feels like I am recovering.
Cons: zero lipido , i get few spontaneous erections, and if I want one i can get it up but the desire is simply not there. This is common with SERM use ...or so I've heard.
 

kafahmy

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End of Week 4 update:

So far I've been on (Clomid/Nolva):

week1: 50/20
week2: 50/20 (except for 2 days, i dropped clomid to 25 due to vision sides)
week3 :25/20
week4 :25/20 + OTC test booster "Sheer Testosterone"

By the end of Week3 I started to feel good, the past week has been great, making gains at the gym and feeling mentally and physical great. Sex drive is half way back and erections are also good...a Low dose tadafil here and there is also helping big time.

Blood work done at the end of WEEK4 to gauge the response of my HTPA, I will post results soon. if LH and FSH are over the range(hopefully),then I'll drop clomid/nolva to 12.5/10 for 2 more weeks then stop, wait for 6 weeks and do complete blood work.

Overall I feel like I'm recovering pretty well, first 2 weeks were not as fun but I am finally starting to feel just great, much better than when I was on TRT for sure!

Thanks for following and good luck if you going through the same journey, I know FROM EXPERIENCE that it is very exhausting.
 

kafahmy

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LAB WORK RESULTS:

Lab work was done on 6/1/2018
Clomid/Nolva PCT started on 05/05/2018

LH 11.7 mIU/mL ( 1.7 - 8.6)
FSH 5.2 mIU/mL (1.5/12.4)

Testosterone 643 ng/dl (264-916)
Free Testosterone 13.7 pg/mL (9.3 - 26.5)

Estradiol, Sensitive 22.8 pg/ml (8.0 - 35.0)

-I really am not sure what the results mean in this case , for one : LH is over the range but FSH is within normal range ? shouldn't they both be within or over the range ?
-Test level is mid range, I was under the impression that Clomid+Nolva get's the test level in the 1000 range and the test level drops to mid range 4-6 weeks after the discontinue of SERMS. Can it be that I am still recovering and the test level will keep increasing ?
I will stay on Nolva/Clomid for 3 more weeks dropping to 12.5/10 for the last 2 weeks .

Maybe someone can help interpreting the results ?
 

kafahmy

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last week of PCT update:

So far I have done the following:

week1: 50/20
week2: 50/20 (except for 2 days, i dropped clomid to 25 due to vision sides)
week3 :25/20
week4 :25/20 + OTC test booster "Sheer Testosterone"
Week5: 12.5/10 OTC test booster "Sheer Testosterone"
Week6: 12.5/10 OTC test booster "Sheer Testosterone"
Last week : 10 mg Nolvadex.

Will wait 6 weeks and redo blood work. Been feeling really great mentally and physically lately; great energy, great sense of well being. Finally got to feel normal .
The only mistake I've made "I guess" would be using some Cialis or Viagra on few occasions. I have this very weird reaction from PDE5 inhibitors (just guessing) as i get great results from a friction of the recommended dose but I feel like I am not myself for few days after using. I think it has a strong impact on my estrogen level...will need to confirm that with blood work of course but for now I'll just stop using them completely and enjoy feeling great. hopfully it will last after the discontinue of SERMs.

Next update in 8 weeks...
Cheers!
 

kafahmy

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Lab work !!!

I did lab work twice so far and the results are as follow :

1) Collected on 07/30/2018 8:50 AM

Testosterone, Free, LCM/MS/MS 89.4 pg/mL46.0 - 224.0 pg/mL
LH 6.45 mIU/mL1.50 - 9.30 mIU/mL
TSH 1.70 uIU/mL0.35 - 4.50 uIU/mL
T3, Free 2.4 pg/mL2.3 - 4.2 pg/mL
Free T4 0.85 ng/dL0.60 - 1.60 ng/dL

2) Collected on 08/29/2018 8:50 AM (range was not provided ! but it says normal)
Testosterone Total (84403) 4.48 ng/ml normal
Testosterone Free 84402 43.30% normal
SHBG 36.84 nmo/L normal
Estrogens,Total 74pg/ml normal

i Can't compare results from Pre TRT as the test was using different units and ranges but it looks like I am within normal (low normal) range on everything so I beleive I should call my PCT a success.

As for how I feel:
Some days are better than other but I feel slightly off specially in the mornings and when I get less than 8 hours of sleep.
Energy is good, mood is above average.
Sex Drive is almost non existent, it was better during and post PCT but it started to fade until it almost disappeared. I get morning wood most of the days and I can masturbate(loads are fine as well) , erection is not bad but the desire is simply not there.

Supplements/ medication:

Test boosters: Animal test (previous), currently on Animal Stak
Peptides: GHRP6 AND cjc 1295 no Dac 2-3 times/day and IGF LR3
Other: multivitamin, fish oil, Whey, fat burner, Preworkout.

Overall, I lost some muscle and gained lot of fat due to bad mood ****ty food blah blah but I have been back on track lately and I believe the peptides are helping big time to get back in shape.

I have been off Testosterone since Aril and my PCT was over in July. it's been 2 month since I came off everything but I still don't feel right. I will give it till January, if I don't get better I think I may consider self TRT or maybe a short cycle then "the power pct" by Scally as a last resort before going TRT for life.

If you have thoughts or suggestions please share :) & good luck if you are going through the same journey !
 

kafahmy

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2) Collected on 08/29/2018 8:50 AM (range was not provided ! but it says normal)
Testosterone Total (84403) 4.48 ng/ml normal
Testosterone Free 84402 43.30% normal
SHBG 36.84 nmo/L normal
Estrogens,Total 74pg/ml normal
Found a way to convert the units to align with my pre trt results.

Testosterone Total (84403) 448 ng/dl normal
Testosterone Free 84402 43.30% normal
SHBG 36.84 nmo/L normal
Estrogens,Total 74 pg/ml normal


Results matches my pre-TRT results, free T is actually a bit higher but also SHBG is higher (used to be 31.5) . So on paper I am healed! and PCT worked just fine. As per the previous post, I will give my body the time to stabilizes, I was told sex drive may take up to a year to fully come back after such a long shutdown period, but i was also told that it should start coming back gradually over the next few month. It's a waiting game.. I will post monthly updates on this topic.
 

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