Unanswered Tried a SERM during cycle-doesn't work

[BigGGG]

So, long story short, I am week 3 of an T-Bol only cycle (40mg real ****/day) . I decided to not go a test base but try to run a SERM along the T-Bol.
I went TOREM 60mg/day (as Clomid makes me bitchy). My stuff is good, can't be to blame.
After 3 weeks my Test is crushed to the ground (1,86 nmol/L) , libido and energy also, so the SERM didn't do anything for suppression.
Time to get on a test base for the remaining 3 weeks and do a proper PCT afterwards.
I hope this might help some folk here.

 

[Nycnano]

But isn’t that to be expected tho? From my understand only real test will help with your testosterone levels, a “test base” is just to help you feel a bit better and “help” with libido. You will be suppressed no matter what, the serm is just gonna help you bounce back sooner.

I could be totally wrong tho.

 

[BigGGG]

SERM on cycle were reported to help with suppression, which in my case , they do NOT. I am totally suppressed, as much as I would have been without the SERM.

 

[BBiceps]

I have done Anavar cycles with Clomid and without, I feel better with Clomid and feel like I recover faster, even though I’m suppressed as shown on my blood work. Test will drop regardless but using a SERM might help you recover

 

[jrock645]

Ive never seen anyone suggest using a serm instead of test. This was a senseless experiment and a totally irrational conclusion imo.

 

[BigGGG]

I have seen it suggested right here right here, like:

Run a SERM throughout cycle... - AnabolicMinds.com

...and forget PCT. I use 60 mg toremifene. Last cycle (T-cyp/dbol, 8 weeks) came off everything, and total T was 850 after 4 weeks. SERMs maintain HPG-axis function even while on cycle. They are not estrogen receptor antagonists, they are inverse agonists -- this is why they're able to so...

anabolicminds.com

and by other guys...

 

[jrock645]

I have seen it suggested right here right here, like:

Run a SERM throughout cycle... - AnabolicMinds.com

...and forget PCT. I use 60 mg toremifene. Last cycle (T-cyp/dbol, 8 weeks) came off everything, and total T was 850 after 4 weeks. SERMs maintain HPG-axis function even while on cycle. They are not estrogen receptor antagonists, they are inverse agonists -- this is why they're able to so...

anabolicminds.com

and by other guys...

The very first sentence in the citation says he ran test cyp.

You need to actually read.

 

[Matthersby]

So, long story short, I am week 3 of an T-Bol only cycle (40mg real ****/day) . I decided to not go a test base but try to run a SERM along the T-Bol.
I went TOREM 60mg/day (as Clomid makes me bitchy). My stuff is good, can't be to blame.
After 3 weeks my Test is crushed to the ground (1,86 nmol/L) , libido and energy also, so the SERM didn't do anything for suppression.
Time to get on a test base for the remaining 3 weeks and do a proper PCT afterwards.
I hope this might help some folk here.

I’m confused. Is that your free test?
Nothing is going to stop your natural test from being shut down while taking supraphysiological doses of androgens. I don’t think anywhere in the 150 pages of that it says your free test will be above a certain number. There’s very little scientific data on this experiment. Just antecdotal reports.
I would be looking at your LH/FSH though.
And most importantly, how you felt.
And even more important than everything else, how fast you recovered/how easy pct was.
That one little bit of data you included definitely doesn’t discredit a half dozen accounts of limited or less suppression on cycle while using a serm.

 

[Matthersby]

Using a serm in place of a test base was never suggested either. It was simply a last resort if you were unable to use a test base as a means of lessening suppression and accelerating recovery. It was a “better than nothing” scenario

 

[BigGGG]

But why wouldn't someone be able to use a test base? I might get LH/FSH also checked. Sorry if I misunderstood this but I could swear I red somewhere I should do a SERM instead of a testbase. Might be my mistake though. Anyways, if not for the bloodwork, my libido, energy and appetite are down. As for how well I will bounce back, hard to tell as this is a short cycle and usually 4 weeks of a SERM PCT does the trick without problems.

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Kept my lh/fsh unchanged after four weeks, my test was boarding sub-normal but shgb got smashed to low single digits so free T barely changed.

This was all from 25mg var and 60mg torem...

 

[ItalOne]

You just wasted your torem. There is NO scenario where a serm should be used as a test base. Lol not even as a last resort.

 

[jrock645]

But why wouldn't someone be able to use a test base? I might get LH/FSH also checked. Sorry if I misunderstood this but I could swear I red somewhere I should do a SERM instead of a testbase. Might be my mistake though. Anyways, if not for the bloodwork, my libido, energy and appetite are down. As for how well I will bounce back, hard to tell as this is a short cycle and usually 4 weeks of a SERM PCT does the trick without problems.

Some people dont want to pin test.

 

[CroLifter]

Why dont you just run test base man? You are going to be shut down either way.

@jrock645 but they are still putting exogenous hormones into their body, regardless of whether it is by mouth or by injection.
I actually understand when someone who uses a legal designer steroid doesnt want to pin test. But when someone has already reached to the black market for an illegal substance, then making sure that test is in the mix shouldn't even be an issue.

 

[jrock645]

Why dont you just run test base man? You are going to be shut down either way.

@jrock645 but they are still putting exogenous hormones into their body, regardless of whether it is by mouth or by injection.
I actually understand when someone who uses a legal designer steroid doesnt want to pin test. But when someone has already reached to the black market for an illegal substance, then making sure that test is in the mix shouldn't even be an issue.

I dont disagree. But pinning just “different” for those that havent worked ip the courage to do it before. Once youve done it, its easy.

 

[solidsnake]

There is also people that can’t pin, like me for instance ( because of my job) I make my own transdermals and they are very effective. You don’t Have to pin, there are alternatives

 

[ItalOne]

There is also people that can’t pin, like me for instance ( because of my job) I make my own transdermals and they are very effective. You don’t Have to pin, there are alternatives

Just curious what kind of work are you doing that you can’t pin but are able to have it in your blood?

 

[solidsnake]

Who says I’m able to have in my blood?

 

[ItalOne]

Who says I’m able to have in my blood?

Lol, You just said you make your own transdermals, therefore it’s in your blood?
Care to explain?

 

[ItalOne]

Who says I’m able to have in my blood?

Que??

 

[solidsnake]

Que??

If you want to know my job you can pm me, don’t like posting it on forums anymore as it may raise awareness to the wrong folk

 

[ItalOne]

If you want to know my job you can pm me, don’t like posting it on forums anymore as it may raise awareness to the wrong folk

Honestly wasn’t so interested in your actual job. More interested in WHY your able to use transdermal steroids but unable to to pin them?

 

[solidsnake]

Because where I go we can’t take syringes

 

[ItalOne]

Because where I go we can’t take syringes

I have never traveled with syringes and I’ve left the country on countless vacations well over TWO WEEKS and I felt awesome every time. Test cyp half life is 10 days. Example; So if you were shooting 500mg week, then half of your second to last week will carry over. So you would be sitting at 750mg your last week. Do you realize how many half lives it takes to clear 750mg of test? Ruffly 4 weeks. That’s a pretty large window In between shots.

Obviously this would change depending on dosage and test ester and more so if your on TRT or not. Also there is Nebido which is test undecanoate. You only need 5-6 injections per year.

 

[BarryScott]

There's been plenty of discussion here and elsewhere on using a serm on cycle to help mitigate shutdown and speed up recovery post-cycle. Not sure why some people are so confused by the idea. The jury is still out on how effective it actually is. But yeah, LH and FSH values would probably be more relevant than your test levels.

 

[Jeremyk1]

I have never traveled with syringes and I’ve left the country on countless vacations well over TWO WEEKS and I felt awesome every time. Test cyp half life is 10 days. Example; So if you were shooting 500mg week, then half of your second to last week will carry over. So you would be sitting at 750mg your last week. Do you realize how many half lives it takes to clear 750mg of test? Ruffly 4 weeks. That’s a pretty large window In between shots.

Obviously this would change depending on dosage and test ester and more so if your on TRT or not. Also there is Nebido which is test undecanoate. You only need 5-6 injections per year.

He’s a pretty knowledgeable guy, probably is aware of all that. I’m under the impression he’s going “places” (wherever that may be) for several months. So even a long ester probably wouldn’t be ideal.

 

[jrock645]

There's been plenty of discussion here and elsewhere on using a serm on cycle to help mitigate shutdown and speed up recovery post-cycle. Not sure why some people are so confused by the idea. The jury is still out on how effective it actually is. But yeah, LH and FSH values would probably be more relevant than your test levels.

Yeah but nobody suggests it instead of running test dipshit.

 

[BigGGG]

Yeah but nobody suggests it instead of running test dipshit.

"I think the suppression would be less and your PCT would be smoother if you used a SERM instead of test. I know @BBicepsdid a SERM/ anavar cycle recently, maybe he can give some insight. "

Guess I have not dreamed this up...
This was suggested in another thread of mine.

 

[jrock645]

"I think the suppression would be less and your PCT would be smoother if you used a SERM instead of test. I know @BBicepsdid a SERM/ anavar cycle recently, maybe he can give some insight. "

Guess I have not dreamed this up...
This was suggested in another thread of mine.

The very first line in the link you posted above, with the guy saying he used a serm on cycle also ran test. What you are claiming makes absolutwly zero sense. Sure, you can find one example of somebody making that suggestion but nobody thus far has agreed with. Youre seriously going to hold onto the one lone suggestion against the broad consensus on this? That is foolish.

 

[BBiceps]

"I think the suppression would be less and your PCT would be smoother if you used a SERM instead of test. I know @BBicepsdid a SERM/ anavar cycle recently, maybe he can give some insight. "

Guess I have not dreamed this up...
This was suggested in another thread of mine.

Yes, and my blood test showed a level of a wild 41 in test after 7 weeks of Var&Clomid, lol. I did bounce back fairly quick and felt good during the cycle but yeah, SERM on cycle will not keep your test levels high/normal, it might make you feel better on cycle and it most likely will help you recover faster after cycle is done, it did for me at least.

 

[jrock645]

Yes, and my blood test showed a level of a wild 41 in test after 7 weeks of Var&Clomid, lol. I did bounce back fairly quick and felt good during the cycle but yeah, SERM on cycle will not keep your test levels high/normal, it might make you feel better on cycle and it most likely will help you recover faster after cycle is done, it did for me at least.

I cant argue against any of this but i have no idea how its being so wildly misinterpreted to suit somebodys dumbass idea.

 

[BBiceps]

I cant argue against any of this but i have no idea how its being so wildly misinterpreted to suit somebodys dumbass idea.

Lol, me neither

 

[ItalOne]

He’s a pretty knowledgeable guy, probably is aware of all that. I’m under the impression he’s going “places” (wherever that may be) for several months. So even a long ester probably wouldn’t be ideal.

Ok, I’m sure he is. Though you would be surprised how many times I’ve seen threads where people are concerned about taking gear and syringes on business or vacation.
If planned properly you can go a fairly long time in between shots. I’ve traveled on vacation with my own Trest ace in salvo before. Worked like a charm.

 

[BarryScott]

Yeah but nobody suggests it instead of running test dipshit.

It's often discussed in regard to cycles that don't contain test - orals only, sarms, etc.

 

[jrock645]

It's often discussed in regard to cycles that don't contain test - orals only, sarms, etc.

No it isn’t.

 

[BarryScott]

No it isn’t.

It absolutely is, but you're entitled to believe what you want.

 

[BigGGG]

The very first line in the link you posted above, with the guy saying he used a serm on cycle also ran test. What you are claiming makes absolutwly zero sense. Sure, you can find one example of somebody making that suggestion but nobody thus far has agreed with. Youre seriously going to hold onto the one lone suggestion against the broad consensus on this? That is foolish.

Bro, sure, my mistake that I didn't do my homework, really agree on this one. But your answer that nobody is suggesting it instead of test is not correct. In fact this was suggested by more than one person ( not by the guy who run test besides it but in another thread-I can dig it up). Again, I should have done my homework much better so my mistake and learned a bit more

 

[Matthersby]

Bro, sure, my mistake that I didn't do my homework, really agree on this one. But your answer that nobody is suggesting it instead of test is not correct. In fact this was suggested by more than one person ( not by the guy who run test besides it but in another thread-I can dig it up). Again, I should have done my homework much better so my mistake and learned a bit more

Hopefully we haven’t got to a point where we are just being mean to each other or trying to make you feel bad.
Back in 2009-10 I didn’t plenty of oral only cycles. I probably even knew I needed to run test but didn’t. I didn’t even put in the research to read enough threads to come up with an idea of running a serm on cycle.
So kudos for trying to minimize suppression, accelerate recovery and hopefully mitigate lethargy. You do more than most guys do for early cycles. Now we know why Test is so helpful with cycling and especially why SERMs are so damn important after cycle so you can bounce back and keep any gains.
Cycling is tough mentally. By the time you’ve really got it figured out, it’s damn near time to just get on TRT. Wish I did about 12 things differently when I cycled.
We should be here more to help you with questions and problems so we will change gears to achieve that.

 

[Hyde]

I did bloodwork I posted on a 10wk oral/transdermal cycle including Toremifene at 30-60mg daily. It showed conclusively that test was very low (around 200) and LH/FSH were NOT tanked. This was an extremely dry cycle with no 19-Nors, and that coupled with a maintained LH/FSH from the Torem allowed an exceptionally easy recovery.

IT WILL NOT MAINTAIN NATURAL TEST LEVELS, ONLY STIMULATE LH FOR EASIER RECOVERY.

You still need to get DHT into you if you want to have any energy or a functioning pecker.
Androsterone, Epiandrosterone, 3AD, DHEA or 4DHEA with AI, Test, Trest, Tren - some kind of significant androgen has to be in the mix if you want that to happen. Radarine also seems to help libido some for reasons I don’t understand.