Training and Diet Tips, Just Want to Give Back What I Have Learned Over 10 Years

[SweetLou321]

I just wanted to share some training nuggets for those on the board to try and take a moment to give back.

1) If you find yourself spinning your wheels and not able to stick to a singular goal, it may be time to go internally and figure out what your "why" is for training and dieting. With so much information available and social media, it can be easy to be tempted to following the "shiny object." We all started for a reason, and sometimes that can be lost over time or it may need to evolve. When you are not sure what direction to take and commit to for some time, finding your "why" can help provide clarity. Some things to consider are:
-Why did you start?
-What do you enjoy?
-What fits with your current circumstances?
-What is sustainable? What is just temporary? Which aspect should be in which category for now?
-Where does training and dieting fit in your current priority list?
-What do you currently want to achieve? Then rank them on a tier list and consider approaching each goal from the top down, stack compatible goals if possible.

2) Research suggests almost all diets generally work to build muscle and get lean as long as enough protein is consumed and spaced out in 20-40g intervals over about 3 meals in a day. Even if one of these aspects is not achieved, its not like the diet will not work, its not black and white, it is instead various shades of grey. The main things to focus on is adherence and matching the constraints of one's life at that time.

3) Managing stress is important for progress. Research shows that mental stress can elongate the recovery process from training. Avoiding unnecessary stress is a great starting point. However; as psychologist Kelly McGonigal states, "a meaningful life is one with stress," this means that at some level, one cannot simply avoid stress to still progress in all areas of life. Instead it may be best to focus on managing stress, some things I found helpful are:
-Adopt a growth mindset
-View stress as beneficial towards growth (some data suggests this alters its impact on mortality without impacting the load)
-Meditation
-Practice gratitude
-Focus on what you can control
-Take responsibility for your life
-Action tends to cure most things

Stress: The Silent Killer (of gains)

You don't get stronger in the gym. You get stronger between sessions as you recover. Few things negatively impact your results as much as stress can.

www.strongerbyscience.com

4) Minimizing the need for recovery is important for progress. Some research suggests that the MPS stimulus that comes after training (the growth signal if you will) can only go so high. So this can potentially imply that we can only stimulate so much potential growth from a single session, no matter how optimized it may be. Then some more research suggests that this MPS stimulus can either be used to repair muscle damage or to cause muscle growth. Repair and growth and not the same thing. Repair is the rescuing of damage tissues or even replacing one's beyond repair in extreme cases. Growth is the addition of new tissues. So this section of data may suggest that we have a limited amount of MPS stimulus available after each session, and if we elicit too much of a need for repair, then less is available for growth, so limiting the need for recovery and leave more of the MPS stimulus for potential growth. Here are some examples of this idea in application:
-Focus on training with appropriate volumes you can recover from.
-Do a mix of stretch focused movements and mid length or short position focused movements (stretch focused cause more damage)
-Generally avoid practices that cause more muscle damage but the same rate of growth
-Prioritize processive overload in the form additional reps or weight over sets (there is a time and place to focus on increasing work capacity, but that is not the same adaptation as growth and not usually a concern for most lifters with some training experience)

5) Do not focus on enhancing recovery if this also comes with a lower adaptation response. Many recovery supplements and practices are not all that effective in the long run. Most antioxidant and anti-inflammatory supplements can decrease the oxidative stress and inflammation from a session, but these are important signals for the adaptation process, thus meaning while recovery is enhanced, adaptations are potential decreased. So if it normally takes 4 days to recovery from a session, with a supplement, we can now train every 3 days, are we going to make more progress, or do we now need to train more often to make up for the reduced adaptation response and over time the results are the same? The data is not clear, but I personally lean away from doing more work for the same net results. Same concept applies to cold baths. Then some recovery tools like foam rolling can decrease soreness and increase one's perceived recovery rate, but does not actually increase recovery in definition. Recovery defined in the research is the return of one's full performance from the previous session. You may be better served:
-Adjusting training volume and practices to your current state
-Focusing on increasing work capacity in a dedicated period if it is really is a limitation

6) Goals are great as they provide direction, but it may be best to focus on sustainable behavior and practices just as much. It would be a good idea to determine what things you want to achieve and maintain long-term and what things your are striving for that are temporary in nature. Want to lose weight and keep it off? Maybe it would be better to focus on sustainable long-term dietary changes you can stick with over a more extreme diet that you cannot adhere to long-term. Want to get stronger and keep it? Maybe train in a most sustainable approach when it comes to volume, intensity, frequency, etc. and save the more overreaching styles for temporary goals or competition days.

7) Theoretical optimal based on research is great! It gives one the bench mark to measure what is most likely to help them achieve their goals the fastest. The only downside is that not everyone's current life constraints will match this theoretical optimal. It may be best to instead of trying to hit optimal and missing half of the time to instead adjust the plan to your life while getting as close as possible, this can allow you to now hit this goal with much more adherence. This is a long game and its amazing what a good plan adhered to over 8-10 years can do. Time can often wash away minute differences in optimal. Now some may respond differently to this advice. If you get discourage by not sticking to you plan, this new approach may be for you. If you do not get discourage, then by all means strive for optimal, but still maybe make several tiered back of plans for things go wrong if you see a pattern where you cannot adhere most of the time, like a plan A (optimal), plan B (next best), plan C (next next best), ect.

8) For muscle growth:
-Training close to failure on working sets
-Aim for 5-30 reps per set
-Find the right amount of volume you need so that you progress over time but can recover
-Space that volume out generally over 1-7 sessions based on preference and adherence
-You are not the average, so play around with both 5-12 reps and 15-30 reps, sure research says they should be equivalent on the average, but you are not always the average

9) For strength:
-More muscle increases the potential for more strength
-Get proficient in the lift you want to express strength in
-Variety in that lift can increase proficiency
-More frequency without hurting recovery means more practice
-A mix of training near and away from failure for the strength lift can enhance strength
-Strength is specific not only in movement, but also rep range

 

[Resolve10]

This is solid. I could quibble on some little things, but that would just be nit picking.

I've come to feel like we are aligned in a lot of ways, whenever I see your posts I feel like it just says what I would have said, but in sometimes are more concise and effective manner.

 

[SweetLou321]

This is solid. I could quibble on some little things, but that would just be nit picking.

I've come to feel like we are aligned in a lot of ways, whenever I see your posts I feel like it just says what I would have said, but in sometimes are more concise and effective manner.

I am open to hearing where you think I could improve my observations and take always, always a student.

It nice that we tend to see eye to eye on a lot of things. The more experienced people that tend to find the same things relatively true probably means that we are seeing the patterns correctly for the most part. Science still has some ways to go in the towards telling us the whys and what not.

 

[PhantomReaper]

Proper Recovery Protocols are essential for grow..Often,overlooked and lifestyle gets in the Way..
Z...

 

[Jeremyk1]

Proper Recovery Protocols are essential for grow..Often,overlooked and lifestyle gets in the Way..
Z...

Charles Poliquin used to say that most people aren’t over trained, but under recovered. Definitely focus on recovery.

 

[Smont]

Charles Poliquin used to say that most people aren’t over trained, but under recovered. Definitely focus on recovery.

Most ppl are undertrained and over eat lol

 

[gphagan1]

I just wanted to share some training nuggets for those on the board to try and take a moment to give back.

1) If you find yourself spinning your wheels and not able to stick to a singular goal, it may be time to go internally and figure out what your "why" is for training and dieting. With so much information available and social media, it can be easy to be tempted to following the "shiny object." We all started for a reason, and sometimes that can be lost over time or it may need to evolve. When you are not sure what direction to take and commit to for some time, finding your "why" can help provide clarity. Some things to consider are:
-Why did you start?
-What do you enjoy?
-What fits with your current circumstances?
-What is sustainable? What is just temporary? Which aspect should be in which category for now?
-Where does training and dieting fit in your current priority list?
-What do you currently want to achieve? Then rank them on a tier list and consider approaching each goal from the top down, stack compatible goals if possible.

2) Research suggests almost all diets generally work to build muscle and get lean as long as enough protein is consumed and spaced out in 20-40g intervals over about 3 meals in a day. Even if one of these aspects is not achieved, its not like the diet will not work, its not black and white, it is instead various shades of grey. The main things to focus on is adherence and matching the constraints of one's life at that time.

3) Managing stress is important for progress. Research shows that mental stress can elongate the recovery process from training. Avoiding unnecessary stress is a great starting point. However; as psychologist Kelly McGonigal states, "a meaningful life is one with stress," this means that at some level, one cannot simply avoid stress to still progress in all areas of life. Instead it may be best to focus on managing stress, some things I found helpful are:
-Adopt a growth mindset
-View stress as beneficial towards growth (some data suggests this alters its impact on mortality without impacting the load)
-Meditation
-Practice gratitude
-Focus on what you can control
-Take responsibility for your life
-Action tends to cure most things

Stress: The Silent Killer (of gains)

You don't get stronger in the gym. You get stronger between sessions as you recover. Few things negatively impact your results as much as stress can.

www.strongerbyscience.com

4) Minimizing the need for recovery is important for progress. Some research suggests that the MPS stimulus that comes after training (the growth signal if you will) can only go so high. So this can potentially imply that we can only stimulate so much potential growth from a single session, no matter how optimized it may be. Then some more research suggests that this MPS stimulus can either be used to repair muscle damage or to cause muscle growth. Repair and growth and not the same thing. Repair is the rescuing of damage tissues or even replacing one's beyond repair in extreme cases. Growth is the addition of new tissues. So this section of data may suggest that we have a limited amount of MPS stimulus available after each session, and if we elicit too much of a need for repair, then less is available for growth, so limiting the need for recovery and leave more of the MPS stimulus for potential growth. Here are some examples of this idea in application:
-Focus on training with appropriate volumes you can recover from.
-Do a mix of stretch focused movements and mid length or short position focused movements (stretch focused cause more damage)
-Generally avoid practices that cause more muscle damage but the same rate of growth
-Prioritize processive overload in the form additional reps or weight over sets (there is a time and place to focus on increasing work capacity, but that is not the same adaptation as growth and not usually a concern for most lifters with some training experience)

5) Do not focus on enhancing recovery if this also comes with a lower adaptation response. Many recovery supplements and practices are not all that effective in the long run. Most antioxidant and anti-inflammatory supplements can decrease the oxidative stress and inflammation from a session, but these are important signals for the adaptation process, thus meaning while recovery is enhanced, adaptations are potential decreased. So if it normally takes 4 days to recovery from a session, with a supplement, we can now train every 3 days, are we going to make more progress, or do we now need to train more often to make up for the reduced adaptation response and over time the results are the same? The data is not clear, but I personally lean away from doing more work for the same net results. Same concept applies to cold baths. Then some recovery tools like foam rolling can decrease soreness and increase one's perceived recovery rate, but does not actually increase recovery in definition. Recovery defined in the research is the return of one's full performance from the previous session. You may be better served:
-Adjusting training volume and practices to your current state
-Focusing on increasing work capacity in a dedicated period if it is really is a limitation

6) Goals are great as they provide direction, but it may be best to focus on sustainable behavior and practices just as much. It would be a good idea to determine what things you want to achieve and maintain long-term and what things your are striving for that are temporary in nature. Want to lose weight and keep it off? Maybe it would be better to focus on sustainable long-term dietary changes you can stick with over a more extreme diet that you cannot adhere to long-term. Want to get stronger and keep it? Maybe train in a most sustainable approach when it comes to volume, intensity, frequency, etc. and save the more overreaching styles for temporary goals or competition days.

7) Theoretical optimal based on research is great! It gives one the bench mark to measure what is most likely to help them achieve their goals the fastest. The only downside is that not everyone's current life constraints will match this theoretical optimal. It may be best to instead of trying to hit optimal and missing half of the time to instead adjust the plan to your life while getting as close as possible, this can allow you to now hit this goal with much more adherence. This is a long game and its amazing what a good plan adhered to over 8-10 years can do. Time can often wash away minute differences in optimal. Now some may respond differently to this advice. If you get discourage by not sticking to you plan, this new approach may be for you. If you do not get discourage, then by all means strive for optimal, but still maybe make several tiered back of plans for things go wrong if you see a pattern where you cannot adhere most of the time, like a plan A (optimal), plan B (next best), plan C (next next best), ect.

8) For muscle growth:
-Training close to failure on working sets
-Aim for 5-30 reps per set
-Find the right amount of volume you need so that you progress over time but can recover
-Space that volume out generally over 1-7 sessions based on preference and adherence
-You are not the average, so play around with both 5-12 reps and 15-30 reps, sure research says they should be equivalent on the average, but you are not always the average

9) For strength:
-More muscle increases the potential for more strength
-Get proficient in the lift you want to express strength in
-Variety in that lift can increase proficiency
-More frequency without hurting recovery means more practice
-A mix of training near and away from failure for the strength lift can enhance strength
-Strength is specific not only in movement, but also rep range

Good stuff…..the Information Age and the ability to search and find answers so easily, has helped speed knowledge up for most, but there really does seem to be so much on most any subject going in so many different directions, that people have a hard time navigating through all the minutiae, or the distracting details, that they miss the nuggets of life and what ever it is they are researching. We see that confusion all the time with new guys coming on here trying to learn, but being so confused on the facts. Great post.

 

[Resolve10]

3) Managing stress is important for progress.
Not really in disagreement with this, more just highlighting a bit said in the article you linked. I think for me one of the biggest lights on moments was first hearing Mike T talk about treating yourself/other athletes as tending a garden and not a machine. We try to "cultivate" results by giving stimulus, but it isn't like a computer that immediately spits out a yes/no, you could do all the right things and get a bad response or do some bad things and still get a good response, so it helped me detach (manage my stress around over thinking my training) to just kind of doing the things needed and observing -> evaluating -> making changes as needed.

This isn't against what you've written, but I like to caution that when we talk about managing stress it doesn't mean to think we should never be stressed or have stress. Working out is a stress, some we just can't avoid, and some we can work to mitigate.

4) -Do a mix of stretch focused movements and mid length or short position focused movements (stretch focused cause more damage)
Looking forward to more of the research on this subject, it is pretty interesting right now!

-Prioritize progressive overload in the form additional reps or weight over sets (there is a time and place to focus on increasing work capacity, but that is not the same adaptation as growth and not usually a concern for most lifters with some training experience)
I think this just needs a caveat, maybe, or maybe I am misinterpreting. I think to a certain point yes, but there are also plenty of times (imho) that adding a set is just as justified or may be the more appropriate choice. There in my experience does seem an optimal amount of volume for each individual, but that is also balanced between the intensity so I find it all more "mixed" than easy to always say one over the other. We must hit a threshold for intensity and then we should fill in as much volume as we can in that range? Probably way oversimplifying it to put it into a sentence for how I feel.

Would love for more of your thoughts on this, so maybe you could sway me.

5) This is the one I probably take the most contention with, but that probably stems directly from the fact I feel it is the least "settled". So take everything I am about to say more as the sum of my opinions and experiences and not to say I think you are wrong, you may very well be right. I flip flop on this one constantly as I think about it, so just some food for thought below.

Most antioxidant and anti-inflammatory supplements can decrease the oxidative stress and inflammation from a session, but these are important signals for the adaptation process, thus meaning while recovery is enhanced, adaptations are potential decreased.
This isn't necessarily true. Inflammation and signals from training aren't. I think different supplements, anti-oxidants, anti-inflammatory and various other modalities effect these things in different ways. Stronger by science's article on anti-oxidants I think is a good starting point on this take, since it shows that there may be potentially different effects from things like higher dosed vitamins versus polyphenols and phytonutrients. I think it is worth more research and am not so ready to throw them all out yet. I think a better viewpoint could be that we start to look at more specific actions they have (not going too deep right now, but maybe the interactions they have with various cytokines/myokines in relation to training and how maybe they may have different effects around training versus other times of day), while always also still being cautious in understanding that short term outcomes may or may not have the long term benefits we are looking for.

Caveat most of this is above my head, it is starting to spin just trying to think of the interactions again. Figure/study for reference on just a start of all the things going on:
Anabolic and Catabolic Pathways

So if it normally takes 4 days to recovery from a session, with a supplement, we can now train every 3 days, are we going to make more progress, or do we now need to train more often to make up for the reduced adaptation response and over time the results are the same? The data is not clear, but I personally lean away from doing more work for the same net results.
I totally can agree with this in theory and would not try to persuade someone away from this IF they have given it a try and found it works for them. I say this because I struggle with forming an opinion on it too strongly yet because my personal (and therefore possibly clouding my opinion) on this is the opposite. The greatest improvements to hypertrophy and performance I have seen (especially in my legs) have come from a period in time where I absolutely hammered the recovery improving supplements and hit things 3-4 days per week (for longggg periods of time). This could certainly just be a case of it being best for me, but not the norm for others. My second thought here also would be to make sure goals are aligned when talking about this. Strength, endurance, and hypertrophy (and any other goals) might not all necessitate the same stance (but most of what you've written sounds like it has a hypertrophy slant so I tried to read it through that viewpoint).

Same concept applies to cold baths.
This definitely seems to be something that hampers long term adaptations based on the current research imho. Again why I think it may mean we need a more one by one approach to each of these recovery improving modalities and studying them before throwing them all out together. Again would just end with cautioning that meaning we should never use cold baths, just don't use them with most instances of hypertrophy being the main goal.

I don't want to feel like I am over staying my welcome on a single subject, especially because I don't really disagree and don't want it to look like I am being argumentative, I just tend to think about this point a lot (more so questions than answers are what I am giving I guess). My last point would be part of me wonders how does this relate in relation to more advanced and seasoned athletes. I don't know how to particularly articulate this last point yet, as it is something still just spinning around in my head, but I wonder about how training age, actual age, and the overall intensity of work may have an effect on end results of these types of interventions.

Bolded responses above.

I am open to hearing where you think I could improve my observations and take always, always a student.

It nice that we tend to see eye to eye on a lot of things. The more experienced people that tend to find the same things relatively true probably means that we are seeing the patterns correctly for the most part. Science still has some ways to go in the towards telling us the whys and what not.

Sorry kind of got lost in my head typing some of that out, as you can see it really was only one area I kind of (a little) disagreed with.

Charles Poliquin used to say that most people aren’t over trained, but under recovered. Definitely focus on recovery.

I get this, but I also think it is misplaced at times. Our training is a specific stimulus that we give to try and get an intended benefit, with the recovery then trying to help usher that along. I don't want to sound like an ass, but based on the training I see a lot of people do and even those on here a lot, it leaves a lot to be desired and improved upon. There is also only so much you can do to recover. You can't just eat a massive amount over your baseline to force more recovery, etc.

They are both important. I see people who need to train better and I see some who need to recover better, while I see some who spend too much time worrying about training and some short changing training by always being too focused on recovery.

Some people definitely need to hear that quote though so it can be quite helpful in the right situation.

 

[KvanH]

Nice to see you posting a bit more often lately, Lou.

Although there would be some overlapping with the stuff you posted on this thread, I think you could add some good stuff here:

10 Training Mistakes (30 Years of Lifting) - AnabolicMinds.com

I thought it might be helpful to post up some of my training mistakes from 30 years of lifting. I've had a lot of success with reaching my goals (510 bench at 198, 20" arms, 6 minute mile, 32 pull up, 650 deadlift, etc.) but also a lot of failures that could have been avoided. In no particular...

anabolicminds.com

 

[SweetLou321]

Not really in disagreement with this, more just highlighting a bit said in the article you linked. I think for me one of the biggest lights on moments was first hearing Mike T talk about treating yourself/other athletes as tending a garden and not a machine. We try to "cultivate" results by giving stimulus, but it isn't like a computer that immediately spits out a yes/no, you could do all the right things and get a bad response or do some bad things and still get a good response, so it helped me detach (manage my stress around over thinking my training) to just kind of doing the things needed and observing -> evaluating -> making changes as needed.

This isn't against what you've written, but I like to caution that when we talk about managing stress it doesn't mean to think we should never be stressed or have stress. Working out is a stress, some we just can't avoid, and some we can work to mitigate.

I like the work of Mike T a lot. I agree with what you have written. Thanks for expanding here, as there is of course more that could be said on each point. I mean we could easily create full length articles to flesh out each point. I was trying to provide enough information that one could use it without writing too much lol.

I think this just needs a caveat, maybe, or maybe I am misinterpreting. I think to a certain point yes, but there are also plenty of times (imho) that adding a set is just as justified or may be the more appropriate choice. There in my experience does seem an optimal amount of volume for each individual, but that is also balanced between the intensity so I find it all more "mixed" than easy to always say one over the other. We must hit a threshold for intensity and then we should fill in as much volume as we can in that range? Probably way oversimplifying it to put it into a sentence for how I feel.

Would love for more of your thoughts on this, so maybe you could sway me.

My views on this primarily stem from Mike T and the 3DMJ crowd. I think for most, they will find a particular range of volume in terms of hard sets that they respond to the best for a particular goal. It would not be a static number but more of range. Mike T does say that he does not typically like progressing sets week to week as a form of overload as it is not a consistent stimulus from the week prior. Meaning that instead of just plugging in reasonably good inputs that we hope to produce some good outputs, we are changing the inputs making it hard to observe how the current routine is working. Adding reps or weight is an increase in overall workload, and one that likely matches the rate of progress in most experienced lifters. Adding a set can be viable if one is not progressing from their current workload and is recovering well when it is assessed. To me, for hypertrophy, the first thing we need to do is apply enough stimulus per set, then we need to apply enough volume of that stimulus to try and get the desired outcome. The analogy that always stuck with me was that the "hard set" is like picking the right song on the radio, but you need to do enough volume of "hard sets" to really hear the song at a comfortable volume, if you do too many "hard sets" then the song is really just too loud to even be enjoyable. So I think we are on the same page overall, but I appreciate you giving me a change to expand on this subject more.

5) This is the one I probably take the most contention with, but that probably stems directly from the fact I feel it is the least "settled". So take everything I am about to say more as the sum of my opinions and experiences and not to say I think you are wrong, you may very well be right. I flip flop on this one constantly as I think about it, so just some food for thought below.

Most antioxidant and anti-inflammatory supplements can decrease the oxidative stress and inflammation from a session, but these are important signals for the adaptation process, thus meaning while recovery is enhanced, adaptations are potential decreased.
This isn't necessarily true. Inflammation and signals from training aren't. I think different supplements, anti-oxidants, anti-inflammatory and various other modalities effect these things in different ways. Stronger by science's article on anti-oxidants I think is a good starting point on this take, since it shows that there may be potentially different effects from things like higher dosed vitamins versus polyphenols and phytonutrients. I think it is worth more research and am not so ready to throw them all out yet. I think a better viewpoint could be that we start to look at more specific actions they have (not going too deep right now, but maybe the interactions they have with various cytokines/myokines in relation to training and how maybe they may have different effects around training versus other times of day), while always also still being cautious in understanding that short term outcomes may or may not have the long term benefits we are looking for.

So if it normally takes 4 days to recovery from a session, with a supplement, we can now train every 3 days, are we going to make more progress, or do we now need to train more often to make up for the reduced adaptation response and over time the results are the same? The data is not clear, but I personally lean away from doing more work for the same net results.
I totally can agree with this in theory and would not try to persuade someone away from this IF they have given it a try and found it works for them. I say this because I struggle with forming an opinion on it too strongly yet because my personal (and therefore possibly clouding my opinion) on this is the opposite. The greatest improvements to hypertrophy and performance I have seen (especially in my legs) have come from a period in time where I absolutely hammered the recovery improving supplements and hit things 3-4 days per week (for longggg periods of time). This could certainly just be a case of it being best for me, but not the norm for others. My second thought here also would be to make sure goals are aligned when talking about this. Strength, endurance, and hypertrophy (and any other goals) might not all necessitate the same stance (but most of what you've written sounds like it has a hypertrophy slant so I tried to read it through that viewpoint).

I get what you are saying here. To expand, I agree the science is far from settled on the overall topic. I have read the Stronger by Science article on the topic as well. I probably should have not really tried to give a quick stance on this topic unless I was prepared to really go into the small details. I think most antioxidants and recovery supplements are likely benign, some seem to help in the short-term but not in the long-term (but still neutral). I know most researchers doing the actual studies will caution long-term use of the supplements in athletes due to the potential impact on adaptations that I mentioned. I do view them as smarter than I so I choose to echo their overall stance. I have personally only had neutral benefits from said recovery supplements myself. It is cool that you had such a positive experience though! Most of the data about them being negative in the long-term is just speculation based on how a particular supplement in an acute setting impacts a particular marker that was shown to be correlated with adaptations. So it really is hard to say with much confidence what more data will show. I am glad you shared here so we could give a little more nuance. Maybe a better take is to be cautiously optimistic? Like try them out, see if they help, like in your experience, if they do not seem to help, do not go out of your way to spend the cash. If you are low on cash, they likely are not the first place you should look for recovery benefits.

I will say the supplements I feel have the most promise based on human data and what markers they have not been shown to impact are:
Taurine
Curcumin
Fish Oil (Maybe pro-resolving mediators)
Polyphenols (tart cherry)

I will try to loop back around and post studies and why I picked those four if people are interested.

 

[Resolve10]

I like the work of Mike T a lot. I agree with what you have written. Thanks for expanding here, as there is of course more that could be said on each point. I mean we could easily create full length articles to flesh out each point. I was trying to provide enough information that one could use it without writing too much lol.


My views on this primarily stem from Mike T and the 3DMJ crowd. I think for most, they will find a particular range of volume in terms of hard sets that they respond to the best for a particular goal. It would not be a static number but more of range. Mike T does say that he does not typically like progressing sets week to week as a form of overload as it is not a consistent stimulus from the week prior. Meaning that instead of just plugging in reasonably good inputs that we hope to produce some good outputs, we are changing the inputs making it hard to observe how the current routine is working. Adding reps or weight is an increase in overall workload, and one that likely matches the rate of progress in most experienced lifters. Adding a set can be viable if one is not progressing from their current workload and is recovering well when it is assessed. To me, for hypertrophy, the first thing we need to do is apply enough stimulus per set, then we need to apply enough volume of that stimulus to try and get the desired outcome. The analogy that always stuck with me was that the "hard set" is like picking the right song on the radio, but you need to do enough volume of "hard sets" to really hear the song at a comfortable volume, if you do too many "hard sets" then the song is really just too loud to even be enjoyable. So I think we are on the same page overall, but I appreciate you giving me a change to expand on this subject more.



I get what you are saying here. To expand, I agree the science is far from settled on the overall topic. I have read the Stronger by Science article on the topic as well. I probably should have not really tried to give a quick stance on this topic unless I was prepared to really go into the small details. I think most antioxidants and recovery supplements are likely benign, some seem to help in the short-term but not in the long-term (but still neutral). I know most researchers doing the actual studies will caution long-term use of the supplements in athletes due to the potential impact on adaptations that I mentioned. I do view them as smarter than I so I choose to echo their overall stance. I have personally only had neutral benefits from said recovery supplements myself. It is cool that you had such a positive experience though! Most of the data about them being negative in the long-term is just speculation based on how a particular supplement in an acute setting impacts a particular marker that was shown to be correlated with adaptations. So it really is hard to say with much confidence what more data will show. I am glad you shared here so we could give a little more nuance. Maybe a better take is to be cautiously optimistic? Like try them out, see if they help, like in your experience, if they do not seem to help, do not go out of your way to spend the cash. If you are low on cash, they likely are not the first place you should look for recovery benefits.

I will say the supplements I feel have the most promise based on human data and what markers they have not been shown to impact are:
Taurine
Curcumin
Fish Oil (Maybe pro-resolving mediators)
Polyphenols (tart cherry)

I will try to loop back around and post studies and why I picked those four if people are interested.

Ya we definitely agree a lot on that, even more so after you expanded. I appreciate you taking the time to.

For the progression of sets vs weight/reps reading you write that made me actually think more about it. For me I think it comes down to a disconnect (me personally not connecting experience with what I am saying) between thinking too much about a certain population.

I am digesting it so I don't know exactly how to explain, but could possibly come back later to better explain my thoughts. I honestly haven't been as plugged in with Mike specifically the last couple years directly, but my current training that has tons of influence from those in his "sphere" does indeed sound more like how you lay it out.

Definitely agree on the last sentiment though. Like I said I flip flop, I feel currently some probably do help, but I also would love to have more to dig through to help form some conclusions.

 

[SweetLou321]

Ya we definitely agree a lot on that, even more so after you expanded. I appreciate you taking the time to.

For the progression of sets vs weight/reps reading you write that made me actually think more about it. For me I think it comes down to a disconnect (me personally not connecting experience with what I am saying) between thinking too much about a certain population.

I am digesting it so I don't know exactly how to explain, but could possibly come back later to better explain my thoughts. I honestly haven't been as plugged in with Mike specifically the last couple years directly, but my current training that has tons of influence from those in his "sphere" does indeed sound more like how you lay it out.

Definitely agree on the last sentiment though. Like I said I flip flop, I feel currently some probably do help, but I also would love to have more to dig through to help form some conclusions.

I use to powerlift and followed Mike T and his emerging strategies concepts pretty heavily, even still do to this day. The way I look at it is that the repeated bout effect (RBE) that allows us to resist muscle damage and do more overall training only adapts so far. So once you achieve near the limit of that, the general volume ranges of hard sets you respond best to is pretty set for the most part. This is assuming most of the variables regarding ones overall recovery are handled for the most part and stable. So adding sets as a form of overload just does not seem like the best idea to me, but adding reps and weight is an increase in workload and one that not only matches the need to maintain the proper stimulus per set, but does not potentially drive the amount of total stimulus in terms of total sets outside of one's optimal. I personally have never responded to adding sets as a form of overload once in an optimal range well and none of the athletes I helped did either, again when things are stable. Overreaching also has not really panned out in the research as of late either. Of course if something is moving you from your baseline recovery, then adjust your range of hard sets to meet that. Some examples are:

Dieting - Maybe Decrease
Surplus - Maybe Increase
Lots of Chronic Stress - Maybe Decrease
Lots of Chronic Sleep Deprivation - Maybe Decrease

I tend to think of this in the form of a bell curve. So as we go from zero sets to a lot of sets, the response of the person increases to a certain point with the optimal number likely being a range at the top of the curve and either side showing signs of a decreased response. The side with less sets is simply because the total stimulus is not enough to maximize the training response. The side with more sets, to me, is the result of too much muscle damage being accumulated and thus now the body has to decrease muscle growth to allocate more of the limited resources to recover from the training.

So are there more variables we can play with to alter our effective range? I think so yeah. Chris Beardsley has some good information on this topic. Methods that increase muscle damage will likely decrease how much volume you can handle and thus lower the range. Such as:

Forced Reps (no evidence to increase growth)
High Reps (can be more joint friendly for some and some may see better growth from this method, so can be a good trade off)
Drop Sets (can help save time, might be a good trade off for some)
Partials (some seem to be playing with these on stretch loaded movements with some success ATM)
Short Rest Periods (This one actually makes it to where most would need to do more sets to match the stimulus compared to longer rest periods)
Myo-Reps (can help save time, might be a good trade off for some)
Training to Failure (important to ensure one knows where failure is, can make training dumby proof lol)
Stretch Position Loaded Movements (can maybe lead to more growth)
A lot of Sets in a Single Session (if its all you can do schedule wise, I would not worry to much about this)

Methods that decrease muscle damage are likely to allow you to handle more volume:

Short and Mid Position Loaded Movements (maybe less growth compared to stretch focused movements, but would be my first pick to add more volume to a routine if it is already "optimized" and we want to experiment)
Longer Rest Periods (probably best if you can do it schedule wise)
Training Shy of Failure (seems just as good as failure training, but one should still train to failure to ensure they know what just shy of failure truly is)
Using Band and Chains so the Stretched Position is Deloaded (maybe the same as training short and mid position loaded movements)

I say all of this to point out to anyone interested that it is not as simple as saying "do 7-10 sets, as that is optimal for you, and call it a day." It is a malleable range that is impacted by many things. I do think though that there are several cases where adding sets can be worth trying:

-Recovering well but not making progress
-Never really tried higher volumes so you have not really challenged your body to see if the RBE can allow you to respond better to more volume
-Want to try something new to try and make faster progress and you are already recovering well
-An attempt to increase work capacity, this is similar to my second point above, but this is not a short-term growth strategy but one where you want to increase the RBE adaptation as far as it will go, then scale back to a more reasonable volume that you can now recover from and respond well to, but you could not handle that volume and respond well to it prior and your current volume loads that you could recover from were too low to really stimulate growth. This is also the one I am on the fence about most but I have seen others have success with it in a long-term plan, esp powerlifters after meets.

I will dig up some studies on antioxidants and inflammatory modulating compounds and adaptations later and post them for you.

 

[SweetLou321]

Ya we definitely agree a lot on that, even more so after you expanded. I appreciate you taking the time to.

For the progression of sets vs weight/reps reading you write that made me actually think more about it. For me I think it comes down to a disconnect (me personally not connecting experience with what I am saying) between thinking too much about a certain population.

I am digesting it so I don't know exactly how to explain, but could possibly come back later to better explain my thoughts. I honestly haven't been as plugged in with Mike specifically the last couple years directly, but my current training that has tons of influence from those in his "sphere" does indeed sound more like how you lay it out.

Definitely agree on the last sentiment though. Like I said I flip flop, I feel currently some probably do help, but I also would love to have more to dig through to help form some conclusions.

Below is what I wrote elsewhere on the topic of antioxidants and inflammation compounds on recovery and my views on polyphenols and taurine.

Viable Antioxidant Based Options:

Two options that show promise in supporting recovery from resistance exercise without impacting adaptations related to muscle growth and strength when it comes to managing muscle damage are polyphenols, specifically anthocyanins, and the amino acid taurine. Technically these compounds have more antioxidant like effects instead of directly fighting oxidative stress. This is ideal as traditional antioxidants like vitamin C and E have been linked with trends towards decreased muscle growth and strength, although not all the data is in agreement and most points towards a neutral effect (6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11). This negative trend can be seen in some lines of research because they can directly blunt reactive oxygen species (ROS) production indiscriminately that result from resistance exercise or the repair/regeneration process.

The direct blunting effect of oxidative stress during and after resistance training can decrease force output, increases how much damage results from each muscle contraction, decreases protein synthesis, blunts ROS mediated hypertrophy, inhibits beneficial cytokine production, and decreases repair/regeneration (12, 13, 14, 15, 16). These downsides are more likely to occur in young healthy people as they have lower baseline levels of oxidative stress. If oxidative stress is high at baseline, then it can contribute to many of the same effects as oxidative stress levels that are too low (12, 17). If one produces excessive oxidative stress from resistance exercise or during the repair/regeneration phase, then this can directly lead to muscle damage. If one has high baseline levels, then further oxidative stress produced from exercise likely makes the negatives effects of oxidative stress worse. There is a clear benefit to controlling oxidative stress levels at baseline and maintain optimal production around and after resistance training for the best results.

Polyphenols are linked with fighting oxidative stress by upregulating nuclear factor erythroid 2 (Nrf2) instead of exerting direct antioxidant effects in humans (18, 27). Nrf2 is our internal defense system against oxidative stress. Exercise naturally upregulates Nrf2, and this is a favorable adaptation to exercise. Its upregulation decreases our baseline oxidative stress levels and allows us to maintain optimal levels around a stressor, such as exercise. Nrf2 has a hormetic effect; hormesis is the process in which a small amount of something damaging can lead to an upregulation of the defense systems needed to be prepared to handle that harmful stimulus better during the next exposure. This hormetic effect of Nrf2 is linked with allowing us to handle more exercise that induces ROS as we can maintain optimal levels and improved exercise performance as a result. Polyphenols, specifically anthocyanins, have been shown in multiple resistance training trials to improve the rate of recovery (19, 20).

Anthocyanins used prior to and after resistance training have not been shown to impact key antioxidant or cytokine markers in the blood that are proxies for these muscle growth promoting signals inside the cell (19). Through the upregulation of Nrf2, they can keep ROS in an optimal range to help prevent excessive muscle damage, a cytoprotective (cell protective) effect (27). When ROS can get out of hand in relation to resistance training or repair/regeneration, this can lead to DNA damage of the muscle cells (29). When the DNA of muscle cells are damaged, satellite cells (muscle stem cells, pre muscle cells) are less likely to be involved in muscle growth processes because they need to focus on repair mechanisms (29, 30, 31). Additionally, damaged DNA of the muscle cell is unable to respond as well to other signals related to hypertrophy, such as insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) (32).

Repairing and protecting the DNA of the muscle is an import recovery process and can help remove barriers to hypertrophy that the need for recovery can impose. Anthocyanins can upregulate 8-oxoguanine glycosylase (a marker of DNA repair in humans) and decrease baseline levels of 8-hydroxy-2′-deoxyguanosine (8-OHdG) a marker of DNA damage (26, 27). Additionally, they may encourage the formation of cyanidin-rich DNA complexes that resist oxidative damage better then guanine-rich DNA complexes that are more susceptible (27). This is important as elevated 8-OHdG is a marker that corresponds with DOMS and a delayed return to performance (28). Lastly, the amount of DNA damage incurred can be linked with increased fatigue from exercise (33).

I do not think the consumption of anthocyanins will negatively impact muscle growth long term and will actually enhance it as it does not impact protein synthesis, does not exert a direct oxidative stress blunting effect, does not inhibit the production of cytokines directly in relation to exercise, increases the rate of DNA repair, is cytoprotective due to its Nrf2 effects, and is shown to improve recovery. We do not need to supplement with anthocyanins to achieve the benefits outlined above. Foods that are rich in anthocyanins are blueberries, blackberries, and cherries. The consumption of 100-200 grams per day of any of these fruits should provide enough anthocyanins on a consistent basis to provide these benefits. If one does not like these foods, then certainly a supplement can be considered. A dose of 480 milligrams of CherryPURE® in a supplement form has been shown in research to support exercise recovery.

Taurine is an amino acid we produce internally and can be acquired via our diet that can also exert its antioxidant effects by upregulating Nrf2 (22). The use of taurine before and after resistance exercise has been shown to support recovery after resistance exercise in multiple trials (23, 24). Taurine has not been shown to impact either key proxy antioxidant or cytokine blood markers in relation to resistance exercise (23). Markers of oxidative damage were decreased in the trials, likely through taurine’s cytoprotective effects and through its ability to help with calcium regulation and not a direct antioxidant effect (23, 24, 25, 34). Taurine has been shown to decrease the amount of 8-OHdG produced from resistance training, indicating it can protect the DNA of muscle cells (24, 25). It likely does this directly by supporting cellular stability. Calcium ion build-up can result in muscle damage and DNA damage by leading to excessive oxidative stress, and taurine can prevent this build-up (34). Taurine has also been shown to increase force production for a single rep and each successive rep thereafter; this could be due to its effects on regulating calcium ion build-up (35). I do not think this option will impact our gains negatively in the long term, and I believe it will enhance them by reducing the need for recovery by helping prevent some aspects of damage in the first place due to its cytoprotective and calcium ion-regulating effects. Based on the current research, it seems one would want to consider supplementing 3-4 grams per day of taurine to get these effects.

Eating a diet full of fruits, vegetables, and proteins are one of the best ways to maximize the upsides of antioxidants for one’s athletic goals while minimizing the downsides. Of course, supplementation is a viable option if one is looking to maximize every edge they can to get the most out of their training. The options discussed in the article can be great compliments to other well-known methods to improve recovery while maximizing adaptations such as getting enough dietary protein, getting enough total calories, getting enough high-quality sleep, managing our stress load and stress perception, managing overall training loads and training-induced fatigue, and building up into a new training plan.

 

[SweetLou321]

The references for the above, sorry the numbering did not translate when posted here but they are in the order that is outlined above. So if counting down to bullet 7, that will be reference number 7.

• https://medium.com/@SandCResearch/does-muscle-damage-cause-hypertrophy-bf99b652694b
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5023708/
• https://articles.reactivetrainingsystems.com/2017/05/10/project-momentum-17-1-results/
• https://www.strongerbyscience.com/doms/
• https://medium.com/@SandCResearch/how-do-different-types-of-fatigue-affect-hypertrophy-and-recovery-4b5bd500bcb
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31851538
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1664960/
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26129928
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270502/
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1664960/
• https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jsm/2020/3505209/
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3893116/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5949579/

• https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1113/expphysiol.2009.050526
• https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3921/5/4/48/htm
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10383443
• https://www.hindawi.com/journals/omcl/2018/2063179/
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6445811/
• https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-015-0102-y
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2579450/
• https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29890270-tart-cherry-concentrate-does-not-enhance-muscle-protein-synthesis-response-to-exercise-and-protein-in-healthy-older-men/
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30211983
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24383513
• https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-51
• https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15042451-role-of-taurine-supplementation-to-prevent-exercise-induced-oxidative-stress-in-healthy-young-men/
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6413159/
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3151016/#!po=0.862069
• https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10232851-muscle-soreness-induced-reduction-in-force-generation-is-accompanied-by-increased-nitric-oxide-content-and-dna-damage-in-human-skeletal-muscle/
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0753332217361310
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1873506114000944
• http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/31/7/648.full
• https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9018499-the-relationships-among-igf-1-dna-content-and-protein-accumulation-during-skeletal-muscle-hypertrophy/
• https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12972872-athletes-with-exercise-associated-fatigue-have-abnormally-short-muscle-dna-telomeres/
• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4513970/
• https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19423840-taurine-supplementation-increases-skeletal-muscle-force-production-and-protects-muscle-function-during-and-after-high-frequency-in-vitro-stimulation/

 

[gphagan1]

Below is what I wrote elsewhere on the topic of antioxidants and inflammation compounds on recovery and my views on polyphenols and taurine.

Viable Antioxidant Based Options:

Two options that show promise in supporting recovery from resistance exercise without impacting adaptations related to muscle growth and strength when it comes to managing muscle damage are polyphenols, specifically anthocyanins, and the amino acid taurine. Technically these compounds have more antioxidant like effects instead of directly fighting oxidative stress. This is ideal as traditional antioxidants like vitamin C and E have been linked with trends towards decreased muscle growth and strength, although not all the data is in agreement and most points towards a neutral effect (6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11). This negative trend can be seen in some lines of research because they can directly blunt reactive oxygen species (ROS) production indiscriminately that result from resistance exercise or the repair/regeneration process.

The direct blunting effect of oxidative stress during and after resistance training can decrease force output, increases how much damage results from each muscle contraction, decreases protein synthesis, blunts ROS mediated hypertrophy, inhibits beneficial cytokine production, and decreases repair/regeneration (12, 13, 14, 15, 16). These downsides are more likely to occur in young healthy people as they have lower baseline levels of oxidative stress. If oxidative stress is high at baseline, then it can contribute to many of the same effects as oxidative stress levels that are too low (12, 17). If one produces excessive oxidative stress from resistance exercise or during the repair/regeneration phase, then this can directly lead to muscle damage. If one has high baseline levels, then further oxidative stress produced from exercise likely makes the negatives effects of oxidative stress worse. There is a clear benefit to controlling oxidative stress levels at baseline and maintain optimal production around and after resistance training for the best results.

Polyphenols are linked with fighting oxidative stress by upregulating nuclear factor erythroid 2 (Nrf2) instead of exerting direct antioxidant effects in humans (18, 27). Nrf2 is our internal defense system against oxidative stress. Exercise naturally upregulates Nrf2, and this is a favorable adaptation to exercise. Its upregulation decreases our baseline oxidative stress levels and allows us to maintain optimal levels around a stressor, such as exercise. Nrf2 has a hormetic effect; hormesis is the process in which a small amount of something damaging can lead to an upregulation of the defense systems needed to be prepared to handle that harmful stimulus better during the next exposure. This hormetic effect of Nrf2 is linked with allowing us to handle more exercise that induces ROS as we can maintain optimal levels and improved exercise performance as a result. Polyphenols, specifically anthocyanins, have been shown in multiple resistance training trials to improve the rate of recovery (19, 20).

Anthocyanins used prior to and after resistance training have not been shown to impact key antioxidant or cytokine markers in the blood that are proxies for these muscle growth promoting signals inside the cell (19). Through the upregulation of Nrf2, they can keep ROS in an optimal range to help prevent excessive muscle damage, a cytoprotective (cell protective) effect (27). When ROS can get out of hand in relation to resistance training or repair/regeneration, this can lead to DNA damage of the muscle cells (29). When the DNA of muscle cells are damaged, satellite cells (muscle stem cells, pre muscle cells) are less likely to be involved in muscle growth processes because they need to focus on repair mechanisms (29, 30, 31). Additionally, damaged DNA of the muscle cell is unable to respond as well to other signals related to hypertrophy, such as insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) (32).

Repairing and protecting the DNA of the muscle is an import recovery process and can help remove barriers to hypertrophy that the need for recovery can impose. Anthocyanins can upregulate 8-oxoguanine glycosylase (a marker of DNA repair in humans) and decrease baseline levels of 8-hydroxy-2′-deoxyguanosine (8-OHdG) a marker of DNA damage (26, 27). Additionally, they may encourage the formation of cyanidin-rich DNA complexes that resist oxidative damage better then guanine-rich DNA complexes that are more susceptible (27). This is important as elevated 8-OHdG is a marker that corresponds with DOMS and a delayed return to performance (28). Lastly, the amount of DNA damage incurred can be linked with increased fatigue from exercise (33).

I do not think the consumption of anthocyanins will negatively impact muscle growth long term and will actually enhance it as it does not impact protein synthesis, does not exert a direct oxidative stress blunting effect, does not inhibit the production of cytokines directly in relation to exercise, increases the rate of DNA repair, is cytoprotective due to its Nrf2 effects, and is shown to improve recovery. We do not need to supplement with anthocyanins to achieve the benefits outlined above. Foods that are rich in anthocyanins are blueberries, blackberries, and cherries. The consumption of 100-200 grams per day of any of these fruits should provide enough anthocyanins on a consistent basis to provide these benefits. If one does not like these foods, then certainly a supplement can be considered. A dose of 480 milligrams of CherryPURE® in a supplement form has been shown in research to support exercise recovery.

Taurine is an amino acid we produce internally and can be acquired via our diet that can also exert its antioxidant effects by upregulating Nrf2 (22). The use of taurine before and after resistance exercise has been shown to support recovery after resistance exercise in multiple trials (23, 24). Taurine has not been shown to impact either key proxy antioxidant or cytokine blood markers in relation to resistance exercise (23). Markers of oxidative damage were decreased in the trials, likely through taurine’s cytoprotective effects and through its ability to help with calcium regulation and not a direct antioxidant effect (23, 24, 25, 34). Taurine has been shown to decrease the amount of 8-OHdG produced from resistance training, indicating it can protect the DNA of muscle cells (24, 25). It likely does this directly by supporting cellular stability. Calcium ion build-up can result in muscle damage and DNA damage by leading to excessive oxidative stress, and taurine can prevent this build-up (34). Taurine has also been shown to increase force production for a single rep and each successive rep thereafter; this could be due to its effects on regulating calcium ion build-up (35). I do not think this option will impact our gains negatively in the long term, and I believe it will enhance them by reducing the need for recovery by helping prevent some aspects of damage in the first place due to its cytoprotective and calcium ion-regulating effects. Based on the current research, it seems one would want to consider supplementing 3-4 grams per day of taurine to get these effects.

Eating a diet full of fruits, vegetables, and proteins are one of the best ways to maximize the upsides of antioxidants for one’s athletic goals while minimizing the downsides. Of course, supplementation is a viable option if one is looking to maximize every edge they can to get the most out of their training. The options discussed in the article can be great compliments to other well-known methods to improve recovery while maximizing adaptations such as getting enough dietary protein, getting enough total calories, getting enough high-quality sleep, managing our stress load and stress perception, managing overall training loads and training-induced fatigue, and building up into a new training plan.

That’s interesting, and seems to explain some of the ingredients we see in newer supplements that support muscle repair and growth. And for sure we have seen the real word benefits of Taurine and Polyphenols for years. I wonder if the timing of when you take traditional antioxidants such as C and E would matter? For instance if you work out in the evenings, if you take C and E, take those in the mornings or vice versa to hopefully have the best of both worlds, immune system boost and support as well as muscle recovery and growth.

 

[Resolve10]

Lou I appreciate the continued posting.

I had typed something up last night, but wasn't happy with it (hence deleting it) and am feeling a bit overwhelmed (not this thread outside sources) so just haven't had a chance to really put my thoughts into words yet.

I've got a lot of thoughts on the subject, hopefully I'll feel more apt to approach a response soon.

That’s interesting, and seems to explain some of the ingredients we see in newer supplements that support muscle repair and growth. And for sure we have seen the real word benefits of Taurine and Polyphenols for years. I wonder if the timing of when you take traditional antioxidants such as C and E would matter? For instance if you work out in the evenings, if you take C and E, take those in the mornings or vice versa to hopefully have the best of both worlds, immune system boost and support as well as muscle recovery and growth.

Theoretically ya that would be ideal. I am still on the fence and think it probably isn't that big of a deal unless you are dosing them pretty high around training and/or quite a few things of the same nature.

I think it is important to take a case by case approach when determining how to go about this. Still trying to piece together how strongly I feel about how different the responses may matter between different levels of training status, age, goals, etc.

 

[SweetLou321]

That’s interesting, and seems to explain some of the ingredients we see in newer supplements that support muscle repair and growth. And for sure we have seen the real word benefits of Taurine and Polyphenols for years. I wonder if the timing of when you take traditional antioxidants such as C and E would matter? For instance if you work out in the evenings, if you take C and E, take those in the mornings or vice versa to hopefully have the best of both worlds, immune system boost and support as well as muscle recovery and growth.

I will say that I wrote that some time ago and my current views echo more of the Stronger by Science views and this meta:

Antioxidants for Lifters: A Review of the Evidence

Do antioxidants really blunt hypertrophy? The evidence isn't as conclusive as you may think. Eric Trexler breaks down what lifters need to know.

www.strongerbyscience.com

The effects of vitamin C and E on exercise-induced physiological adaptations: a systematic review and Meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials - PubMed

We conducted a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials examining the effect of vitamin C and/or E on exercise-induced training adaptations. Medline, Embase and SPORTDiscus databases were searched for articles from inception until June 2019. Inclusion criteria was...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

However, this meta still cautions their use long-term when it comes to growth:

The Effects of Strength Training Combined with Vitamin C and E Supplementation on Skeletal Muscle Mass and Strength: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis

Intense muscle contractile activity can result in reactive oxygen species production in humans. Thus, supplementation of antioxidant vitamins has been used to prevent oxidative stress, enhance performance, and improve muscle mass. In this sense, randomized ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

.

I think we could probably think about this in terms of population and priorities:

1 - For the most part I doubt most supplemental intakes of direct antioxidants are a concern for lifters. Esp is below 1,000 mg vitamin C and 400 IU vitamin E (as alpha-tocopherol) daily on average. This is regardless of age or timing. If training is your number one priority then maybe try to space them out a few hours from training both before and after, if making progress and being healthy are equal priorities, then I would not worry about timing.

2 - If training is a number one priority and a young healthy person, then I would shy away from higher dosages of direct antioxidants. For young healthy people, baseline oxidative stress should be low, so the signal of oxidative stress from training is important after training.

3- If older, then higher dosages may actually be helpful, as we age our baseline oxidative stress status can increase, which can make it hard for the body to recognize the oxidative stress signal from training, which can blunt adaptations. Higher dosages of direct antioxidants were show in some studies to enhance results in older people because it can lower baseline oxidative stress status and thus allow the body to properly pick up the oxidative stress signal from training. If older and training is your number one priority, I would still dose them at least a few hours from the training session so they can lower oxidative stress more directly away from training. If it is not a number one priority, then I would not worry about timing.

4- If dealing with a health condition that causes oxidative stress, regardless of age, I would lean towards following the same suggestions I have in point 3 for the same reasons.

5- I would not worry about compounds that work primarily via Nrf2 myself and dose them where convenient, maybe even post-wo, but the data does not currently suggest timing is critical here.

6- High dose vitamin C or liposomal hydrogel formulations designed to overcome absorption limitations are populate in the longevity community. Sometimes, the goal of optimizing muscle growth and the goal of longevity do not always align. If your number one goal is longevity, then this is not an area I would worry too much about and just dose your vitamin C as you see fit to support your number one goal.

 

[SweetLou321]

Lou I appreciate the continued posting.

I had typed something up last night, but wasn't happy with it (hence deleting it) and am feeling a bit overwhelmed (not this thread outside sources) so just haven't had a chance to really put my thoughts into words yet.

I've got a lot of thoughts on the subject, hopefully I'll feel more apt to approach a response soon.



Theoretically ya that would be ideal. I am still on the fence and think it probably isn't that big of a deal unless you are dosing them pretty high around training and/or quite a few things of the same nature.

I think it is important to take a case by case approach when determining how to go about this. Still trying to piece together how strongly I feel about how different the responses may matter between different levels of training status, age, goals, etc.

No worries. I plan to circle back when I can to touch on curcumin and fish oil. I do not have the time to provide all of the data at this exact moment though.

 

[gphagan1]

Lou I appreciate the continued posting.

I had typed something up last night, but wasn't happy with it (hence deleting it) and am feeling a bit overwhelmed (not this thread outside sources) so just haven't had a chance to really put my thoughts into words yet.

I've got a lot of thoughts on the subject, hopefully I'll feel more apt to approach a response soon.



Theoretically ya that would be ideal. I am still on the fence and think it probably isn't that big of a deal unless you are dosing them pretty high around training and/or quite a few things of the same nature.

I think it is important to take a case by case approach when determining how to go about this. Still trying to piece together how strongly I feel about how different the responses may matter between different levels of training status, age, goals, etc.

I will say that I wrote that some time ago and my current views echo more of the Stronger by Science views and this meta:

Antioxidants for Lifters: A Review of the Evidence

Do antioxidants really blunt hypertrophy? The evidence isn't as conclusive as you may think. Eric Trexler breaks down what lifters need to know.

www.strongerbyscience.com

The effects of vitamin C and E on exercise-induced physiological adaptations: a systematic review and Meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials - PubMed

We conducted a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials examining the effect of vitamin C and/or E on exercise-induced training adaptations. Medline, Embase and SPORTDiscus databases were searched for articles from inception until June 2019. Inclusion criteria was...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

However, this meta still cautions their use long-term when it comes to growth:

The Effects of Strength Training Combined with Vitamin C and E Supplementation on Skeletal Muscle Mass and Strength: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis

Intense muscle contractile activity can result in reactive oxygen species production in humans. Thus, supplementation of antioxidant vitamins has been used to prevent oxidative stress, enhance performance, and improve muscle mass. In this sense, randomized ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

.

I think we could probably think about this in terms of population and priorities:

1 - For the most part I doubt most supplemental intakes of direct antioxidants are a concern for lifters. Esp is below 1,000 mg vitamin C and 400 IU vitamin E (as alpha-tocopherol) daily on average. This is regardless of age or timing. If training is your number one priority then maybe try to space them out a few hours from training both before and after, if making progress and being healthy are equal priorities, then I would not worry about timing.

2 - If training is a number one priority and a young healthy person, then I would shy away from higher dosages of direct antioxidants. For young healthy people, baseline oxidative stress should be low, so the signal of oxidative stress from training is important after training.

3- If older, then higher dosages may actually be helpful, as we age our baseline oxidative stress status can increase, which can make it hard for the body to recognize the oxidative stress signal from training, which can blunt adaptations. Higher dosages of direct antioxidants were show in some studies to enhance results in older people because it can lower baseline oxidative stress status and thus allow the body to properly pick up the oxidative stress signal from training. If older and training is your number one priority, I would still dose them at least a few hours from the training session so they can lower oxidative stress more directly away from training. If it is not a number one priority, then I would not worry about timing.

4- If dealing with a health condition that causes oxidative stress, regardless of age, I would lean towards following the same suggestions I have in point 3 for the same reasons.

5- I would not worry about compounds that work primarily via Nrf2 myself and dose them where convenient, maybe even post-wo, but the data does not currently suggest timing is critical here.

6- High dose vitamin C or liposomal hydrogel formulations designed to overcome absorption limitations are populate in the longevity community. Sometimes, the goal of optimizing muscle growth and the goal of longevity do not always align. If your number one goal is longevity, then this is not an area I would worry too much about and just dose your vitamin C as you see fit to support your number one goal.

Good answers guys…yeah I’m 59 and still healthy, TRT, and workout. I’ve been 230lbs to 240lbs with 14% to 15% body fat to pretty shredded at 205 lbs and sub 10% before. But I’m really not worried about getting huge anymore or for that matter shredded at sub 10%, but I still carry decent muscle and cut down where my abs show for summer, yeah it still matters some, but mainly just want to continue the hobby I love and maintain a healthy lifestyle. As far as antioxidants I really only get those through my multi and it’s not extremely high doses. I take that in the mornings and at lunchtime, and train in the evenings. Occasionally I may do a light cycle of Test with Mast or Primo and always monitor health markers. I may also throw in
2-3 IU of GH, but that’s about it. I do use a transdermal Curcumin product, Helios by Apex Alchemy and love for these old joints. But always willing to learn and read up on studies, so I like this thread, because you’re never too old to learn.

 

[SweetLou321]

Good answers guys…yeah I’m 59 and still healthy, TRT, and workout. I’ve been 230lbs to 240lbs with 14% to 15% body fat to pretty shredded at 205 lbs and sub 10% before. But I’m really not worried about getting huge anymore or for that matter shredded at sub 10%, but I still carry decent muscle and cut down where my abs show for summer, yeah it still matters some, but mainly just want to continue the hobby I love and maintain a healthy lifestyle. As far as antioxidants I really only get those through my multi and it’s not extremely high doses. I take that in the mornings and at lunchtime, and train in the evenings. Occasionally I may do a light cycle of Test with Mast or Primo and always monitor health markers. I may also throw in
2-3 IU of GH, but that’s about it. I do use a transdermal Curcumin product, Helios by Apex Alchemy and love for these old joints. But always willing to learn and read up on studies, so I like this thread, because you’re never too old to learn.

Given all you laid out, I would not worry about anything you are doing as negatively impacting your adaptations at this point. I will touch on curcumin when I can, but I could not be concerned about its use.

 

[SweetLou321]

Circling back around on curcumin.

Curcumin has antioxidant properties, but the data suggests it increases the internal production of antioxidants as its main mechanism of action in humans:

The effects of curcumin in healthy people

Supplementation with curcumin, the active substance in turmeric, may delay the speed with which hair turns grey. One effect that it definitely has is to cause a dramatic rise in the concentration of NO, which widens blood vessels. And there are more effects, according to research published by...

www.ergo-log.com

It can increase satellite cell commitment and recruitment in aging in this preclinical model:

Curcumin supplementation | More stem cells in recovering muscles in old age

If people respond just as well to curcumin as lab mice, then supplementation with an easily absorbable form of curcumin will not only extend their lifespan. In addition, administration of curcumin in the elderly will stimulate stem cells to regenerate muscle tissue.

www.ergo-log.com

Curcumin can inhibit catabolism by increasing XIAP protein levels, which helps to prevent apoptosis of muscle cells:

Curcumin isn't anticatabolic at all – it's anabolic

Curcumin is perhaps the most interesting supplement being written about by scientists right now. True, hardly any research has been done on humans, and the French research that will be published soon in the Journal of Nutritional Biochemistry is an animal study. But if this animal study confirms...

www.ergo-log.com

Curcumin increases muscle recovery from trauma:

Curcumin helps damaged muscle recover faster

Curcumin, the yellow colour in the spice turmeric, has a muscle strengthening effect, and this is most pronounced in muscles that are recovering. According to an animal study done at Emory University in 1999, curcumin can speed up muscle recovery by at least a factor five.

www.ergo-log.com

Curcumin decreases muscle damage, shown via MRI results:

MRI captures anticatabolic effect of curcumin

Curcumin is an interesting substance for athletes who train so intensively that their body has trouble helping its muscles to recover. And if you don't believe our blue eyes, just take a look in the archive. One problem is that the body does not absorb curcumin easily. But, according to...

www.ergo-log.com

In this meta, curcumin was shown to help with muscle soreness without impacting TNF-a or IL levels:

Effect of curcumin supplement or placebo in delayed onset muscle soreness: a systematic review and meta-analysis - Bulletin of the National Research Centre

Background There are multiple strategies that have been suggested to attenuate delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS). Curcumin has been shown to reduce exercise-induced oxidative stress (OS) and inflammation. However, currently, there is still controversy. Main body of the abstract We conduct...

bnrc.springeropen.com

.

To me, the results of this suggest that while curcumin can modulate oxidative stress and inflammation, the mechanisms it does this by do not seem to impact the oxidative stress and inflammation signals needed for proper adaptations. Additionally, it seems to help with muscle damage and soreness by being muscle protective, speeding up recovery, and inhibiting catabolism.

 

[gphagan1]

Circling back around on curcumin.

Curcumin has antioxidant properties, but the data suggests it increases the internal production of antioxidants as its main mechanism of action in humans:

The effects of curcumin in healthy people

Supplementation with curcumin, the active substance in turmeric, may delay the speed with which hair turns grey. One effect that it definitely has is to cause a dramatic rise in the concentration of NO, which widens blood vessels. And there are more effects, according to research published by...

www.ergo-log.com

It can increase satellite cell commitment and recruitment in aging in this preclinical model:

Curcumin supplementation | More stem cells in recovering muscles in old age

If people respond just as well to curcumin as lab mice, then supplementation with an easily absorbable form of curcumin will not only extend their lifespan. In addition, administration of curcumin in the elderly will stimulate stem cells to regenerate muscle tissue.

www.ergo-log.com

Curcumin can inhibit catabolism by increasing XIAP protein levels, which helps to prevent apoptosis of muscle cells:

Curcumin isn't anticatabolic at all – it's anabolic

Curcumin is perhaps the most interesting supplement being written about by scientists right now. True, hardly any research has been done on humans, and the French research that will be published soon in the Journal of Nutritional Biochemistry is an animal study. But if this animal study confirms...

www.ergo-log.com

Curcumin increases muscle recovery from trauma:

Curcumin helps damaged muscle recover faster

Curcumin, the yellow colour in the spice turmeric, has a muscle strengthening effect, and this is most pronounced in muscles that are recovering. According to an animal study done at Emory University in 1999, curcumin can speed up muscle recovery by at least a factor five.

www.ergo-log.com

Curcumin decreases muscle damage, shown via MRI results:

MRI captures anticatabolic effect of curcumin

Curcumin is an interesting substance for athletes who train so intensively that their body has trouble helping its muscles to recover. And if you don't believe our blue eyes, just take a look in the archive. One problem is that the body does not absorb curcumin easily. But, according to...

www.ergo-log.com

In this meta, curcumin was shown to help with muscle soreness without impacting TNF-a or IL levels:

Effect of curcumin supplement or placebo in delayed onset muscle soreness: a systematic review and meta-analysis - Bulletin of the National Research Centre

Background There are multiple strategies that have been suggested to attenuate delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS). Curcumin has been shown to reduce exercise-induced oxidative stress (OS) and inflammation. However, currently, there is still controversy. Main body of the abstract We conduct...

bnrc.springeropen.com

.

To me, the results of this suggest that while curcumin can modulate oxidative stress and inflammation, the mechanisms it does this by do not seem to impact the oxidative stress and inflammation signals needed for proper adaptations. Additionally, it seems to help with muscle damage and soreness by being muscle protective, speeding up recovery, and inhibiting catabolism.

Great information, and research.

 

[SweetLou321]

Circling back around on fish oil.

Fish oil is essential, and it is high in EPA and DHA. The way fish oil works for our purposes is these omega-3 fatty acids are integrated into our cell membranes and then as these fatty acids are pulled from the membrane for use, as a results of this, these omegas can be converted into pro-resolving mediators. Most of the data showing benefits from fish oil is related to higher dosages, this is because this means we have more EPA and DHA in our cells, so they are more likely to be pulled for use. Pro-resolving mediators do not outright inhibit the production of inflammation, they rally immune cells to help with tissue repair and help to resolve the inflammatory cycle. This would be an ideal mechanism for not blunting the adaptive process but helping to speed up the recovery process post training.

Here are links to some mechanistic data on pro-resolving mediators:

The Involvement of Lipid Mediators in the Mechanisms of Exercise-Induced Muscle Damage

Lipid mediators are a class of signaling molecules that play important roles in various physiological processes, including inflammation, blood pressure regulation, and energy metabolism. Exercise has been shown to affect the production and metabolism of several types of lipid mediators...

www.mdpi.com

.

Emerging roles of pro-resolving lipid mediators in immunological and adaptive responses to exercise-induced muscle injury - PubMed

Lipid mediators are bioactive metabolites of the essential polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) that play diverse roles inthe initiation, self-limitation, and active resolution of inflammation. Prostaglandins, classical pro-inflammatory lipid metabolites of arachidonic acid, have long been...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Fish oil, esp higher dosages has been shown to help with recovery and soreness in humans:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7468920/

Fish oil (EPA and DHA) may even assist with anabolic processes:

Fish oil doubles strength gains through strength training

We have written several times about the positive effects of fish oil supplementation on people over sixty who train with weights. According to American sports scientists, younger strength training novices can also benefit from fish oil supplements.

www.ergo-log.com

Daily dose of 3 grams of krill oil makes bodybuilders gain more muscle

Bodybuilders who take 3 grams of krill oil every day build up four times more muscle mass than bodybuilders who do not use any supplements. Sponsored research.

ergo-log.com

Fish oil with high EPA stimulates muscle building

Athletes who want to build muscle mass can use not only proteins, creatine and amino acids, but also fish oils to achieve this. The anabolic effect of omega-3 fatty acids has been confirmed, so now molecular scientists at the University of Aberdeen have gone a step further. They are about to...

www.ergo-log.com

 

[Hyde]

In Fortitude Training, Dr. Scott Stevenson lists this study (among several others on Curcumin) in his reference list.

Curcumin treatment prevents increased proteasome and apoptosome activities in rat skeletal muscle during reloading and improves subsequent recovery - PubMed

Immobilization is characterized by activation of the ubiquitin (Ub)-proteasome-dependent proteolytic system (UPS) and of the mitochondrial apoptotic pathway. Increased oxidative stress and inflammatory response occur in immobilized skeletal muscles. Curcumin exhibits antioxidant and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It showed that Curcumin supplementation did not prevent atrophy in rats who had their hind legs immobilized, but did definitively speed recovery of muscle size in the group administered Curcumin for the time while they were bound.