Tnation ****s.....
- Thread starter fightnews
- Start date
Abe Lincoln
Well-known member
A lot of companies do that, simple marketing trick. Most people are smart enough to check other sites and compare.
slayer01994
Member
Like when you go shopping a some stores and everything is on sale so when you go and checkout they say you saved this amount and sometimes you save more than you spend and it makes you feel good. That's becoming every retailers thing so it makes you feel good and you come back to spend more.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Comes out cheaper than what I was paying before actually, because my orders would qualify for the 15% off.
Oh really? Price out Plazma gram for gram using bulk and what not, please enlighten us as to the mountain of dollars you end up saving going down that path.
Also please point out an alternative to Indigo. How about comparative fish oil to their TG form Flame Out.
I'm not saying that you should all go buy lots of Bio**** products, but making such gross blanket generalizations when the reality of the matter counters the generalizations is nonsensical.
Their protein powder is also actually quite good, not full of junk and is very competitively priced for what you are getting. Same goes for their Finibars.
Speaking of comparison shopping, people don't seem to bother to comparison shop when it comes to Bio**** products, they just assume that Bio**** is robbing them. This is entirely asinine to me.
jaakonpallo
Member
Well that company was the first one to emphasize on making great tasting protein powders. They were the first company to come out with a natural test booster, first one to come out with a natural estrogen/ai inhibitor, first one to come out with a myostatin blocker(not saying it worked but they tried),first one to come up with an intra and after workout supplement, ....hmmmm...i must have forgotten something but never the less they've done a lot in this industry....oh yeah first one to come out with an cognitive enhancer (prob wrote that wrong but it was SPIKE)...so they will always have my respect even though i'm not using anything from them atm
Edit: i know there were carb based supps for intra and post workout before them but they approached it completly diffrent way.
Edit: i know there were carb based supps for intra and post workout before them but they approached it completly diffrent way.
ma70
Well-known member
I've only directly looked at Micro-PA comparison to stuff like King. Indigo seems super expensive to maintain as a GDA when there are plenty of decent GDAs on market. You got me on the blanket statement/generalization though. I'll be sure to pay attention to their entire line more (because I don't bother with all of that intra-workout/pre-workout stuff in general, and I don't do protein bars)
kissdadookie
Well-known member
That Indigo initially put me off, then I used it (mainly because it came with the Plazma + Mag-10 stacks they use to offer, apparently they no longer do going by their site today), did wonders for my non-fasted blood sugar levels (I'm now in upper fasted range for blood sugar but that is without actually fasting). It's likely doing a lot more than just being a GDA tbh.
Micro-PA is expensive, but it's the one where you are guaranteed Mediator. This is however a moot point since taking soy lecithin granules appear to be working just as well
ma70
Well-known member
Since you seem to use their line a lot, what products in their line do you recommend the most to try?
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Fish oil (because it's actually the cheapest for the amount you get in triglyceride form, slightly cheapest since Nordic Naturals are not that much more expensive), the protein, finibars. Plazma is probably their flagship and best product IMO but 1) you said you don't really use intras so this is a moot point and 2) Intra-MD is a lot cheaper and second only to Plazma.
wideguy1979
New member
Yo dookie I actually ha e to agree 110%. They do some things I do not like and have changed the atmosphere of the forum in a way I do not like since they started. But hey things change, I did not like it so I stop ped posting. Kept reading though and that is another thing they have IMO hands down the BEST library of training and dietary articles FOR FREE out of anywhere I have ever seen in my life.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Not just the articles, but in their boards, Amit, Mark, and even Christian give out some really good information outside of their posts about supplements.
wideguy1979
New member
4 SHO Amit is awesome! Charles Poliquin is always cool to talk to and full of info and that magazine put me on to Scott Abel who IMO is often overlooked but an amazing trainer/person
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Amit holds the world record for squats in his weight class now but he still look like a bodybuilder
wideguy1979
New member
I watch clips of that mofo squatting like every day and I swear he must have like ant genetics with how many times his bodyweight he lifts...he is faaackin awesome!!! You ever check out Scott Abel's work?
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Nope. But now I'm going to have to!
Ever looked at Dugdale's stuff? Crazy how Meadows had him do two a days every day with some days being a three a day.
wideguy1979
New member
Nope but now I am going to have to. LoL good talking with ya bro. I also ran the "anaconda protocol" the cheaper version and it was pretty damn amazing. Recovery was phenomenal, pumps excellent, and body recomping like a mofo bro. Never used plasma but Amit told me its ridiculously good and I know Meadows swears by it to the point that MD now exists. I am not sure which to try when I get my $right also need to try some of that micro-pa or king or maybe epic's pa product...although I have no idea if epic s pa product holds a candle to the other 2. Can you tell me exactly what you got out of the micro-pa? The plazma?
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Micro-PA I had strength increases (very modest) which were noted sometime down the line with the 2nd bottle. First bottle I saw a pretty rapid scale weight increase without change in diet. That hit ~3 lbs and stabilized. Muscle fullness was also improved as well as density. Actually had new stretch marks on my arms from using the stuff. I've used it for months. Still have part of a bottle and 3 new bottles left. Recently I finished using a tub of Now Soy Lecithin (2 lber) as that has a lot of PA in it (3 tablespoons). Didn't notice a drop off but the drop off may have been gradual. Taking Micro-PA again currently. With King, I didn't notice a drop off (original King) but when I switched back to Micro-PA, muscle fullness increased, so either King didn't have an accurate labeling of PA content or Micro-PA works better. To save some money, I would suggest buying a tub of soy lecithin and give that a go first.
Plazma, that stuff I've been using for ~8 months straight now? At first I took one serving pre and then used GlycoFuse + Amino-IV intra. Ran out of Amino-IV so used Plazma exclusively, definitely notice far better energy in the gym, I sweat a whole lot more as well. Stuff also doesn't seem to easily get store as bodyfat IMO (Plazma and Mag-10), or perhaps it's due to when the protein and carbs are being consumed (peri-workout, 1 serving Plazma pre, 1 serving Plazma intra, Mag-10 post). The pumps are great with the Plazma and energy levels are so good that I essentially don't use additional pump products anymore because they don't seem to increase the pump any further. It also helped me lower my stimulants use down to 1 Spike tablet preworkout, mainly just to use to wake me up in the morning.
When I get my hands on Intra-MD, I'm going to switch over from Plazma to Intra-MD, it should be a good performer since the most important thing in these products really are the carbs.
wideguy1979
New member
Awesome bro thanks for the clarification
kissdadookie
Well-known member
No problem!
amarula
Member
agree also, specially the library part
kissdadookie
Well-known member
And you know this how?
For all we know, they could be using Peptopro. Like their Indigo, the C3G comes from Chromadex, it's an ingredient that has a trademarked name, yet they don't display it anyway. Same goes for their Carbolin, they are sourcing that Sabansa but you don't see the forslean logo anywhere.
That's one thing you can't fault them for, quality.
Here's the thing to keep in mind, most of their stuff they sell direct to consumer at prices a retailer would be selling it. The difference is that they sell direct, so their margins are going to be excellent. What need is there for thing to nickel and dime the consumer especially when their customers are customers in no small part due to having trust in the stuff? You see other products slapping a bunch of trademark logos on their products and advertising the trademarked ingredients because for them, the logos are a form of marketing for them. Their margins aren't nearly as good though so we never really see products dosed gram for gram similarly to let's say the Plazma. However, with being able to slap a Forslean or Peptopro on the label, people see it and automatically assume it's good stuff (which it could very well be, but IMO things like Peptopro are typically way underdosed per serving unless you use more servings, but now the price isn't so appealing anymore).
I'm not saying that their stuff necessarily works better than a competitors, but it's silly to claim that they are cheating the consumer with low quality raws, I mean, this is the same company selling you Indigo. I like Indigo a lot, wouldn't go telling everyone to go out and buy it though because the value proposition isn't great for many, but come on now, saying that their quality is inferior?
Geoforce
Well-known member
Quality is likely high of their products I have no doubt about that. You can USUALLY find similar products cheaper, but not in all categories. I'm not a big fan of their absolutely insane marketing, but marketing is marketing and they are far from the only culprit. If I could afford Biotest I'd use them more often, it's just hard to go with them when the substitutes are often so much cheaper. I could be sacrificing something I don't know. I used to buy exclusively Biotest but that was years ago as a supplement neophyte.
Biotest is making money hand over fist and have convinced numerous people that as long as it is new and from them it is amazing. Their initial prices on things like Indigo and Plazma were nothing short of remarkable, similar to car payments for a month supply. And yet I'm sure they sold a lot because of the backing they have from some customers, misguided as I may believe they might be.
Not a supplement company out there who isn't envious of their position though I bet.
Biotest is making money hand over fist and have convinced numerous people that as long as it is new and from them it is amazing. Their initial prices on things like Indigo and Plazma were nothing short of remarkable, similar to car payments for a month supply. And yet I'm sure they sold a lot because of the backing they have from some customers, misguided as I may believe they might be.
Not a supplement company out there who isn't envious of their position though I bet.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
iddqd
New member
I think the problem with them isn't so much that they don't use quality ingredients, it is that they sometimes lie about how the ones they use work and have the most retardedly overmoderated forum on earth where you can't even openly talk about the science, especially when their staff doesn't know how things work.
when their sleep aid with phenibut came out they claimed it is not addictive and does not build tolerance because they had a 12-people in-house study where they didn't find that.
their forskolin is an esther which they claim is somehow better than any other forskolin because, you know, it's from the biotest scientists who are smarter than all those other scientists - which is why they don't have to back up those claims.
their hot-rox use a blabla mega macro thermogenic thingy gel, which apparently (as per some old threads on bb.com) is just a form of 7-keto dhea... why not just say so? they use yohimbine because 'alpha yohimbine is not superior and every company who tries to sell that to you is trying to rip you off', but their head nutrition honcho chris shugart when asked whether it is important to take yohimbine fasted replied something along the lines of 'no i have never heard of that being important, this is probably just something about better absorption' - which kind of tells a lot if you ask me.
everything they market, they market as if they had invented it (worst offense was probably the beta-alanine in their spike workout fuel which 'tim patterson got his hands on' to blow away the competition). alpha gpc only works well in liquid form, beta-alanine should be time-released because the tingles are sooo uncomfortable, their tribulus terrestris is better than any other because i don't even remember the reasoning for that, do not use a multivitamin/mineral because our superfood powder is so much better than that - oh wait now we made a multimineral for elite athletes, this one you can take because it is so much better formulated than all the others... any ingredient they do not use is crap because if it wasn't they would be using it etc etc. whenever you wanted to look up your order history on their site and the price of the product was increased anytime after that, it was magically 'not working at the moment right now' - forever, every single time.
and i don't think this really is marketing, they seem to be the kind of people who are just not competent enough to see when they are wrong, but egomaniacal enough to assume that everyone else is if their opinion differs on, well, anything. they are not a company, they are a cult.
that does not mean that flameout, plazma etc are not well-priced at the moment, but think longterm: would you rather pay to have a company with psychotic behaviour like that on top of the industry, or do you want coops corners and evomuse writeups to explain why you might want to try new products?
jaakonpallo
Member
Well...they've worked VERY hard to get in their position.
You can't flaw them for not allowing people to come to their forums and talk crap about their produts.
Yes it's heavily moderated but so is this forum.
It's supplement business, get over it lol
You can't flaw them for not allowing people to come to their forums and talk crap about their produts.
Yes it's heavily moderated but so is this forum.
It's supplement business, get over it lol
iddqd
New member
it's not 'not allowing to talk crap about their products'. it is 'are you sure i can take phenibut every day? because i have read that i should not take it more than twice a week elsewhere' type posts not showing up because they perceive this as a threat to their business. they occasionally let one of those questions slip and answer it if they can do so in a manner that even the dumbest ****tard on earth could not see it as a reason to not buy something to keep up the appearance of a real discussion, but that is very rare fwiw.
i can find fault in that because this is way more at the level of not giving customer service and lying about what they sell than it is not letting you 'talk crap'.
of course this is a part of this business, but it is a part that would go away if people used their money to 'vote smart'. muscletech, bpi etc all get away with their business models because their customers allow them to.
i can also find a flaw in you calling what they do is 'working very hard', because that means you honor what they do primarily as real work. yes, it took/takes them effort to do what they do. but the real work they SHOULD be doing to earn a spot as the top seller in this industry is formulating the best products, and at least to me, putting together a HBCD/peptopro/citmal/betaine blend isn't the same as being AppNut and making Uncut.
i can find fault in that because this is way more at the level of not giving customer service and lying about what they sell than it is not letting you 'talk crap'.
of course this is a part of this business, but it is a part that would go away if people used their money to 'vote smart'. muscletech, bpi etc all get away with their business models because their customers allow them to.
i can also find a flaw in you calling what they do is 'working very hard', because that means you honor what they do primarily as real work. yes, it took/takes them effort to do what they do. but the real work they SHOULD be doing to earn a spot as the top seller in this industry is formulating the best products, and at least to me, putting together a HBCD/peptopro/citmal/betaine blend isn't the same as being AppNut and making Uncut.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
This is where doing your own research comes into play. LoL.
I can't fault them on moderating their board. They've literally stayed on there that the purpose of the board and magazine is to essentially sell you product (Tim Paterson Q&A thread).
It's really no different than other companies telling you how good their products are, except they have a much more robust system set up to do so and their margins are great not necessarily because they overcharge you (a lot of things are actually competitively priced) but because they sell practically all of it direct to consumer.
I can't fault them on moderating their board. They've literally stayed on there that the purpose of the board and magazine is to essentially sell you product (Tim Paterson Q&A thread).
It's really no different than other companies telling you how good their products are, except they have a much more robust system set up to do so and their margins are great not necessarily because they overcharge you (a lot of things are actually competitively priced) but because they sell practically all of it direct to consumer.
BCseacow83
Well-known member
You may get heat from people on here if you bash a supp they love but posts don't get deleted due to asking questions about safety. The Mod team here would be like mall security compared to the Stasi they have running the show over there. If your products are the greatest thing since sliced bread you should welcome people challenging your concepts/ideas/formulations as it gives you the opportunity to argue and prove their worth.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
This board is also not selling a single brand. Derp.
jaakonpallo
Member
I seriosly doudt that asking questions about safety would be delayed, unless there's something other there that makes it stink of bad mouthing their stuff.
i admit of not being there in recent years so i might be wrong.
There's a lot of s*** in EVERY forums...i've learned to find and concentrate on good things every forum has to offer.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
I honestly don't understand how some people are completely oblivious to the fact that their forum is a means for them to sell exclusively their products. LoL. They have stated as much in both their stickies as well as that big Tim Paterson Q&A thread. Tim literally broke it down: we make better margins selling direct to consumer, the magazine and website is designed to sell more products, they don't play the let's be the cheapest products on the market game and thus there's no need to use inferior raws.
I don't see how it is a surprise to anyone that their boards are heavily moderated. LoL.
Note: Not directing any of the aforementioned at you jaakonpallo
iddqd
New member
...and i don't see how it is apparently not an issue for you that 'heavily moderated' in this context means 'openly lying about products' (with 'phenibut is not addictive/tolerance building' being the easiest example i know of). how does having the intention to sell you their stuff make that allright?
and yes, asking questions about safety are most certainly also not taken too seriously at times. i mean how would someone who does not know what yohimbine does and is in charge of those questions be able to tell you not to take tyrosine with it?
'this is not addictive' also must, by definition, lead to 'no, your inability to sleep cannot possibly stem from not taking our z12 on that day' - but maybe you guys have a very different definition of 'safe' supplement usage.
and yes, asking questions about safety are most certainly also not taken too seriously at times. i mean how would someone who does not know what yohimbine does and is in charge of those questions be able to tell you not to take tyrosine with it?
'this is not addictive' also must, by definition, lead to 'no, your inability to sleep cannot possibly stem from not taking our z12 on that day' - but maybe you guys have a very different definition of 'safe' supplement usage.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
I don't see how this is any different from the numerous reps on various boards that quite frankly don't know what the eff they are talking about. LoL.
I surely hope you don't think Chris on there is some sort of supplement expert, because he surely is not. LoL.
Speaking of that phenibut product, I'm actually currently using it. I obviously know better than to take it every night though, LoL. Didn't buy it because it's a superior product, bought it because it has a good dose of 5-htp and there's phenibut in it, so two caps is convenient to dose for me and a bottle lasts a long time. So more of a value purchase.
But no, please for the love of goodness, do not take Chris's supplements advice as solid advice all of the time. Please don't.
BCseacow83
Well-known member
My statement about safety was in regards to them saying there is no problem taking phenibut every night and we know that is not true. In the begging back when they were testosterone.com they balanced the marketing with information. I personally just care for the current incarnation. I never knocked their products but we know they make a better margin then the other companies by selling direct which means if they wanted to they could sell for less. Of course they have the right to sell at whatever they want to and if people buy great for them. I just prefer to buy elsewhere. Kiss as far as the DERP you had to toss in there this site might not directly sell supplements but they are supported by the sales of them by sponsors, not that different to me.
BCseacow83
Well-known member
See that is my main problem is YOU and I know his advice is crap sometimes but lot's of folks don't and think they are an authority. That to me is an issue.
iddqd
New member
that's exactly what i'm talking about KDD!
no, the iforce plague that was hitting this board a while back or the usplabsdirect forums are not really different or better (iforce guys recommended their stuff to people asking for the see-a-doctor kind of health advice, usplabs is the same kind of sorta-cult-ish etc) - but that doesn't make biotest better, it just qualifies them all as equally ****.
this also isn't about the products themselves - i bought a lot of flameout and superfood back in the day and liked it, i drink a ton of iforce' compete because i do well on LCF and its a very well priced source of that, and i like USPs protein a lot.
the problem is that chris was (don't know about today) their go-to guy for supplement advice when i am sure they could have afforded to pay someone competent to take care of that. i am sure they have the money for that. it wouldn't even have been a problem when he at least could have admitted when he doesnt know jack all about something and redirect the question to someone more knowledgable, but no - if biotest is making it, it has to be perfect, because that is the biotest way and therefore, asking questions is questioning the biotest way itself - a sacrilege only the uninitiated would even dare to attempt.
they had basically no reason to lie about the z12s addictive properties because 5-htp, theanine, phenibut is a great combo for a sleep aid - unless they specificially wanted to move more product and exploit people who do not do their own research because they trust them (too much).
'what, you can't sleep without your daily z12? well, better stock up then!'
they do/have done similiar things with pretty much every single one of their products (as far as i am aware), and that is the problem (and the main reason why i stopped buying from them).
remember when they came out with their anaconda (now plazma) protocol and posted that thibs had gained over 20 pounds of lean mass using it (with... i think sebastian and kevin or what their names were 'only' being up about 10-ish pounds)? it was correct that he gained those extra pounds, but it was because he had a viral infection that made him hold a lot of water. somehow, i didn't see the big statement on the main site admitting that.
they made fun of 'those other companies that have their coaches on roids while our own just use our products and make dem gains' all the time - which is funny considering chris a) used a lot of poliquins stuff and b)...was on roids for a while, incidentially during that time where they started using his picture a lot.
and all of it is just kind of... psychotic. HBCD+peptopro or EAAs at a competitive price are good for an intraworkout drink without the ridiculous exaggerations.
no, the iforce plague that was hitting this board a while back or the usplabsdirect forums are not really different or better (iforce guys recommended their stuff to people asking for the see-a-doctor kind of health advice, usplabs is the same kind of sorta-cult-ish etc) - but that doesn't make biotest better, it just qualifies them all as equally ****.
this also isn't about the products themselves - i bought a lot of flameout and superfood back in the day and liked it, i drink a ton of iforce' compete because i do well on LCF and its a very well priced source of that, and i like USPs protein a lot.
the problem is that chris was (don't know about today) their go-to guy for supplement advice when i am sure they could have afforded to pay someone competent to take care of that. i am sure they have the money for that. it wouldn't even have been a problem when he at least could have admitted when he doesnt know jack all about something and redirect the question to someone more knowledgable, but no - if biotest is making it, it has to be perfect, because that is the biotest way and therefore, asking questions is questioning the biotest way itself - a sacrilege only the uninitiated would even dare to attempt.
they had basically no reason to lie about the z12s addictive properties because 5-htp, theanine, phenibut is a great combo for a sleep aid - unless they specificially wanted to move more product and exploit people who do not do their own research because they trust them (too much).
'what, you can't sleep without your daily z12? well, better stock up then!'
they do/have done similiar things with pretty much every single one of their products (as far as i am aware), and that is the problem (and the main reason why i stopped buying from them).
remember when they came out with their anaconda (now plazma) protocol and posted that thibs had gained over 20 pounds of lean mass using it (with... i think sebastian and kevin or what their names were 'only' being up about 10-ish pounds)? it was correct that he gained those extra pounds, but it was because he had a viral infection that made him hold a lot of water. somehow, i didn't see the big statement on the main site admitting that.
they made fun of 'those other companies that have their coaches on roids while our own just use our products and make dem gains' all the time - which is funny considering chris a) used a lot of poliquins stuff and b)...was on roids for a while, incidentially during that time where they started using his picture a lot.
and all of it is just kind of... psychotic. HBCD+peptopro or EAAs at a competitive price are good for an intraworkout drink without the ridiculous exaggerations.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Fair points all around.
jaakonpallo
Member
Speaking of their phenibut,..isn't it a bit diffrent than regular phenibut?..i mean there's only two products that has the same nomelacture around ALRI's comatose and theirs..anyone with a knowledge care to explain the diffrence?
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Pretty sure it's just regular phenibut. I've been using 2 caps 4-5 nights out of the week. Doesn't give me a hangover the next day so it's dosed pretty perfectly for me @ 2 caps.