Thoughts on AAS/PH effects on gains. reps for good responces

threeFs said:
This is so retarded. People who take AAS/PH are arguably the healthiest people around: diet and fitness oriented.
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People who train and diet are more healthy than the majority of the population, but in no way is cycling steroids healthy.
Hgh, maybe. Test, t3 and slin? Absolutely not.

And I agree with bill 100%

A year back, I was the biggest guy in my gym
Now all the guys that used to come to me for training help are juiced to the gills and make me look small.
These guys do not train hard. I've watched them.
One set cable rows, ten minutes texting, one more set rows..
Leg pressing instead of squatting, it's a ****ing joke.
Talking using machines for arms.

To be honest it pisses me off how little they train and how much they gain.

They do not diet hard, I've heard/ seen what they do.

Weekly cheat meals? when I did my twelve week prep I got one cheat, and it was a few pounds of sweet potatoes.

Ex: offseason BB from above group
"i'm eating two meals a day three shakes i'm on hgh, slin, and test, why can't I grow?"

What a ****ing joke.


Let me be clear, I have nothing against those who juice-providing they are busting their ass in and out.

I do not however, have any respect for the guys that are using gear as a short cut for hard work and dedication.

I do not assume someone is on unless I know, or it's obvious.

Also, I find it kind of pathetic how much people who use downplay how much it helps.

Moral of the story, man up and admit you used. Don't walk up to me and tell me "I gained ten pounds starting my diet-it's all me bro"
 
I guess you know a different side of it than I ever thought of. I train in a high school weight room M-F and a corporate gym Sat/Sun full of soccer moms and weekend warriors. So I am definitely naïve to your point as far as seeing guys who are juiced up hard.
Now that you shed some light like that you have me thinking. My point you quoted though is how the AAS user that I envision is conscious of their health, not a 500lb er looking for a miracle. Don't forget that probably 80%+ of people do not exercise or have a clue about health. So even though Brutus juices hard and has a BS training regime, he's still doing more than almost everybody else you will see in the general public.
 
threeFs said:
I guess you know a different side of it than I ever thought of. I train in a high school weight room M-F and a corporate gym Sat/Sun full of soccer moms and weekend warriors. So I am definitely naïve to your point as far as seeing guys who are juiced up hard.
Now that you shed some light like that you have me thinking. My point you quoted though is how the AAS user that I envision is conscious of their health, not a 500lb er looking for a miracle. Don't forget that probably 80%+ of people do not exercise or have a clue about health. So even though Brutus juices hard and has a BS training regime, he's still doing more than almost everybody else you will see in the general public.
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You have a good point man.

i'm not anti steroid, this is how I see it :

Your diet and training should make up The majority of the double layered cake. Gear is only the icing on top.

When I see people who don't have either layer of their cake so to speak, and are trying to pile on frosting, it makes me mad.

I have much respect for the guys that have everything dialed in. they have already made their cake, and they have every damn right to frost their cake as they please
 
IMO taking steroids would only be cheating if every person would have been born with exactly the same genetic possibilities. Its easy for an genetically gifted person to say to a not so gentically gifted roider that he is a cheater because the former person doesnt have the need for taking PEDs. A lot of hypocrites out there.
 
I think its only cheating if nobody in your sport is using gear. However, testing isn't as efficient as it should b so many ppl will work the system, so it won't b fair until everyone is on the same ground. Personally I use gear strictly for competitive BBing and I plan on going pro. I do bust my ass everyday though and I don't take for granted the genetics God has blessed me with. If I wasn't competing I'd probly still would've used but later in life.
 
Dr.Stri8ed said:
I think its only cheating if nobody in your sport is using gear. However, testing isn't as efficient as it should b so many ppl will work the system, so it won't b fair until everyone is on the same ground. Personally I use gear strictly for competitive BBing and I plan on going pro. I do bust my ass everyday though and I don't take for granted the genetics God has blessed me with. If I wasn't competing I'd probly still would've used but later in life.
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Agreed bro.

I don't like how some people use then compete in drug free organizations.

Respect for competing in the correct Fed.
 
aceroni said:
Agreed bro.

I don't like how some people use then compete in drug free organizations.

Respect for competing in the correct Fed.
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I agree. With great genetics, diet, and training, gear will turn u into a freak. Ex: Phil Heath. Just look at the transformation he made from college basketball to the IFBB. He is truly gifted.
 
the most ridiculous thing is that in some sports who are considered olympic everything listed by the WADA is banned in competition though some of the prohibited compounds CANNOT have any positive impacts in this specific sports area.
 
uubiduu said:
the most ridiculous thing is that in some sports who are considered olympic everything listed by the WADA is banned in competition though some of the prohibited compounds CANNOT have any positive impacts in this specific sports area.
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Yeah they just go ban crazy.
 
"Cheating" is such a loaded word IMO. It has a very negative connotation. Perhaps for good reason. However, it has been my experience that most of the people who are at the top of their respective professions, whether it's in business, law, politics, etc., are guilty of what would be considered cheating. And the people who don't cheat, while they may feel a certain sense of self-satisfaction, never reach the pinnacle of their chosen endeavors. Take Arnold for example, by all outward measures, he is considered a success. He is the most popular bodybuilder of all time, a famous movie star, former governor of a US state, and rich beyond belief. But less face it, had Arnold never used AAS we would have never heard of him. Sure, you can say steroids were "legal" in Arnold's day; but they weren't "legal" for bodybuilding purposes. More or less like today, they were legal for medicinal purposes. Just like today, many in Arnold's era viewed taking drugs to enhance their physique as cheating. And you know what? We've never heard of any of these guys. They may have been legends in their local gym but they certainly didn't become global icons. So should one use AAS? Well, if you want to be a legend in the fitness industry, by all means don't hesitate. And if you want to present yourself as natural for marketing purposes go ahead and use them as you'll have a tremendous advantage against real naturals. Just don't get caught like Lance, who is another example of a "cheater" who became an international superstar. Lance's big downfall was his hubris though. Had he been smart about it no one would have never known and his experience would have more closely resembled that of Arnold's. Dare to cheat and be great. Or be a nobody. I'm not passing judgment, it just is what it is.
 
aceroni said:
People who train and diet are more healthy than the majority of the population, but in no way is cycling steroids healthy.
Hgh, maybe. Test, t3 and slin? Absolutely not.

And I agree with bill 100%

A year back, I was the biggest guy in my gym
Now all the guys that used to come to me for training help are juiced to the gills and make me look small.
These guys do not train hard. I've watched them.
One set cable rows, ten minutes texting, one more set rows..
Leg pressing instead of squatting, it's a ****ing joke.
Talking using machines for arms.

To be honest it pisses me off how little they train and how much they gain.

They do not diet hard, I've heard/ seen what they do.

Weekly cheat meals? when I did my twelve week prep I got one cheat, and it was a few pounds of sweet potatoes.

Ex: offseason BB from above group
"i'm eating two meals a day three shakes i'm on hgh, slin, and test, why can't I grow?"

What a ****ing joke.


Let me be clear, I have nothing against those who juice-providing they are busting their ass in and out.

I do not however, have any respect for the guys that are using gear as a short cut for hard work and dedication.

I do not assume someone is on unless I know, or it's obvious.

Also, I find it kind of pathetic how much people who use downplay how much it helps.

Moral of the story, man up and admit you used. Don't walk up to me and tell me "I gained ten pounds starting my diet-it's all me bro"
Click to expand...

Why shouldn't people use shortcuts if they want to? I prefer using a snow blower to shoveling. That's a shortcut. Does it make me a bad person or less of a man? And if people want to use, it's nobody's business but their own. If you don't want to deal with people using PEDs you are in the wrong sport. Steroids and bodybuilding are virtually one and the same. Without steroids, there probably wouldn't be any bodybuilding contests today. You can eat like crap (more or less) and if you're are on the right hormones you will look better than the best natural bodybuilder of all time. And isn't looking big and ripped what bodybuilding is all about? Why would anybody care how you got there?
 
IMO it's like turbo charging or supercharging a car. Support is rebuilding it to withstand the psi. Boost controller and tunes are AI and pct. But what it all comes down to is who the driver is, where you drive it, and what kind of engine you want to slap it on. Different strokes for different folks. If you have a stupid driver(you), a horrible mechanic(your source and doctor), and a poor vehicle(your body) it doesn't matter where you drive it(sport specific bodybuilding, pwr lifting, etc.), it'll be a disaster.

(Lots of other factors play in but hopefully you get me lol)
 
i still don't understand why no one wants to go by a definitional use of the term 'cheat', which would be, paraphrased, to obtain an unfair advantage by means that are against the rules. if steroids are banned in a sport, then i don't understand why people will refuse to admit it's cheating, when, by definition, it's exactly that.

regarding personal gains, i wouldn't say it's cheating because that seems like a stupid word to use to for the advancement of ones own goals. in a way, i understand it because of how many (maybe even most) use steroids/ph's these days and instead of using proper means to meet their end goal; they half ass and use drugs to meet that goal. so if 2 people have the same goal in mind and one uses drugs instead of self control and hard work, i guess i understand the other person's point of view. but that's the same way i view school, imo, we all want to make good grades, but when someone that doesn't need them is taking drugs to make themselves focus for 12 hours straight, it's not right to say, "well, you COULD take those drugs too, so it's your fault that you choose to do the work on your own merits".

basically, it comes down to what is allowed and what isn't allowed in a sport. if steroids are banned, as they are in almost every sport, then taking them is cheating. if using creatine is banned, then that's cheating as well. anything that's against the rules is cheating. i don't understand why people squabble over minor things that are nowhere near as beneficial as steroids when you could just look at the definition of "cheat" and determine that, in the world of sports, it's clearly cheating. i mean, saying, "well, everyone does it" doesn't make it any less against the rules, all that means is that the system for testing is broken.

it's like with college sports, i went to a d1 college, but they'll never be a real contender in ncaa football because they don't have the means to cheat as easily as sec schools who pay their players and get away with more things that are against the rules. i guess i just have an inherent problem with society saying it's ok to do things that are blatantly against the rules just because other people are doing it. i think ncaa sports are the biggest joke because it pretty much comes down to who can cheat the system most efficiently (whether it's with steroids, paying players, or anything else that's against the rules).

just because a lot (or most) people do something, doesn't make it any less against the rules. instead of saying it's not cheating to break the rules and deny the definition of the term "cheat", people should start pushing to have more stringent regulations so most people or teams aren't able to get away with it.
 
and if you take steroids to obtain certain personal goals, thats completely fine with me, i'd do the same. my only problem stems from the fact that the vast majority of people i've seen do this walk around as if they're better than everyone that they're bigger than. that's what's aggravating to natural guys... putting in hard work and effort and then being looked down upon by someone that would be smaller and weaker than them if not for taking steroids.

i feel like everyone has similar goals in mind, and anyone saying they don't compare themselves to others in the gym with respect to that personal goal is a liar (whether it's strength, size, aesthetics, or a little bit of everything). so when someone is natural and they see someone pass them up as a result of steroid use, it's easy to refer to that person as a "cheater" because that person is reaching that goal in a much easier way. i just think it's kind of a stupid term to slap on something as ambiguous as personal goals, but i do understand where it comes from.... i just think its much easier to quantify someone as a "cheater" when they're doing something in a capacity that is blatantly against the rules.
 
JRam said:
Why shouldn't people use shortcuts if they want to? I prefer using a snow blower to shoveling. That's a shortcut. Does it make me a bad person or less of a man? And if people want to use, it's nobody's business but their own. If you don't want to deal with people using PEDs you are in the wrong sport. Steroids and bodybuilding are virtually one and the same. Without steroids, there probably wouldn't be any bodybuilding contests today. You can eat like crap (more or less) and if you're are on the right hormones you will look better than the best natural bodybuilder of all time. And isn't looking big and ripped what bodybuilding is all about? Why would anybody care how you got there?
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My point is those who use gear to make up for half assed training and dieting and drinking every weekend are not worthy, and are just chumps.

Use gear to compliment perfected training and diet.
 
Sorry to but in guys but I need some opinions fast, is this stuff fake? Looks nothing like any omegs I have seen
 
JRam said:
"Cheating" is such a loaded word IMO. It has a very negative connotation. Perhaps for good reason. However, it has been my experience that most of the people who are at the top of their respective professions, whether it's in business, law, politics, etc., are guilty of what would be considered cheating. And the people who don't cheat, while they may feel a certain sense of self-satisfaction, never reach the pinnacle of their chosen endeavors. Take Arnold for example, by all outward measures, he is considered a success. He is the most popular bodybuilder of all time, a famous movie star, former governor of a US state, and rich beyond belief. But less face it, had Arnold never used AAS we would have never heard of him. Sure, you can say steroids were "legal" in Arnold's day; but they weren't "legal" for bodybuilding purposes. More or less like today, they were legal for medicinal purposes. Just like today, many in Arnold's era viewed taking drugs to enhance their physique as cheating. And you know what? We've never heard of any of these guys. They may have been legends in their local gym but they certainly didn't become global icons. So should one use AAS? Well, if you want to be a legend in the fitness industry, by all means don't hesitate. And if you want to present yourself as natural for marketing purposes go ahead and use them as you'll have a tremendous advantage against real naturals. Just don't get caught like Lance, who is another example of a "cheater" who became an international superstar. Lance's big downfall was his hubris though. Had he been smart about it no one would have never known and his experience would have more closely resembled that of Arnold's. Dare to cheat and be great. Or be a nobody. I'm not passing judgment, it just is what it is.
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Taking aas and claiming natural is as pathetic as it gets. If you use and compete in a tested show you're a ****ing cowardly little bitch. I wouldn't even piss on you if you were on fire if you did that.
 
aceroni said:
Taking aas and claiming natural is as pathetic as it gets. If you use and compete in a tested show you're a ****ing cowardly little bitch. I wouldn't even piss on you if you were on fire if you did that.
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But golden showers as foreplay is still OK?
 
aceroni said:
Taking aas and claiming natural is as pathetic as it gets. If you use and compete in a tested show you're a ****ing cowardly little bitch. I wouldn't even piss on you if you were on fire if you did that.
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Is Lance Armstrong a "cowardly little bitch"? He claimed natty and participated in drug tested events. How about Ryan Braun? Vitor Belfort? Look at General Petraeus another, high acheiver who was always spouting off about his intergrity and look what we've learned about him. You think he ever rises as far as he did if he actually had any integrity? Of course not. He's been cheating, lying, etc., since the day he walked into West Point. The guys who actually bought into the Honor Code are either dead or never got past major and are now working as anonymous consultants to supplement their pension.
 
aceroni said:
My point is those who use gear to make up for half assed training and dieting and drinking every weekend are not worthy, and are just chumps.

Use gear to compliment perfected training and diet.
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Isn't eating ice cream and boozing it up fun? If u can do these things and have a great build why not?
 
What irritates me regarding the steroids/cheating debate is that they only target Winners.

They want to tear apart Lance Armstrong only to award the 2nd place loser who was surely taking drugs as well. Or if they tear apart and target the home run leader, they leave all the other juicers who came in 2nd to last alone.

Can you blame some of these guys for lying when their accusers are usually guilty one way or another. If they say yes and plead guilty, then they're crucified by the public and losers who juice and still couldn't perform get the trophy.

And if elevated test is cheating, then I guess it's unfair and cheating that some guys have 800-1000 test while others are trying to function at 300-400. Better make a new rule.
 
JRam said:
Is Lance Armstrong a "cowardly little bitch"? He claimed natty and participated in drug tested events. How about Ryan Braun? Vitor Belfort? Look at General Petraeus another, high acheiver who was always spouting off about his intergrity and look what we've learned about him. You think he ever rises as far as he did if he actually had any integrity? Of course not. He's been cheating, lying, etc., since the day he walked into West Point. The guys who actually bought into the Honor Code are either dead or never got past major and are now working as anonymous consultants to supplement their pension.
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Great point, but I was mostly just referring to natural bodybuilding.
I want to believe that most natural BB competitions contain drug free competitors. I'm not a complete idiot, i'm not talking about muscle mania, but other federations.
basically the top 20 against lance were all doping.

Edit: also, there aren't non tested tour de Frances.

These bikers don't really have a chance to compete against non tested guys in a separate fed..
BB and Pl is a different story
 
aceroni said:
Great point, but I was mostly just referring to natural bodybuilding.
I want to believe that most natural BB competitions contain drug free competitors. I'm not a complete idiot, i'm not talking about muscle mania, but other federations.
basically the top 20 against lance were all doping.
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I agree. If you're juicing and even attempting to do natural shows, then you're a worthless piece of sh*t. Some shows polygraph test ppl so u get caught no matter what. I would never even fathom the idea of trying to compete in a natural show unnatural. I love gear and enjoy being on stage with juice heads lol.
 
So, if your on trt, but keep it a secret, and compete in Natty shows, is that cheating?

Say guy next to you has natural test levels in the 800s, but yours naturally are in the 200s, but after trt, yours are in the 800-1,000s,
Are you cheating?
 
jbryand101b said:
So, if your on trt, but keep it a secret, and compete in Natty shows, is that cheating?

Say guy next to you has natural test levels in the 800s, but yours naturally are in the 200s, but after trt, yours are in the 800-1,000s,
Are you cheating?
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I wouldn't consider that cheating, if u need TRT then I sympathize with u. Lol I just hope u wouldn't b on a gram of test and 80mg of var.
 
jbryand101b said:
So, if your on trt, but keep it a secret, and compete in Natty shows, is that cheating?

Say guy next to you has natural test levels in the 800s, but yours naturally are in the 200s, but after trt, yours are in the 800-1,000s,
Are you cheating?
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I don't think it's cheating personally,
but I think if you're on trt you're supposed to not compete in drug tested events. Idk, for sure tho
 
jbryand101b said:
So, if your on trt, but keep it a secret, and compete in Natty shows, is that cheating?

Say guy next to you has natural test levels in the 800s, but yours naturally are in the 200s, but after trt, yours are in the 800-1,000s,
Are you cheating?
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Good point. TRT is becoming so popular now days. There must be dozens if not hundreds of professional athletes on TRT. I wonder how they handle it?
 
El Hefe said:
Good point. TRT is becoming so popular now days. There must be dozens if not hundreds of professional athletes on TRT. I wonder how they handle it?
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And what's to say a doctor's professional opinion recommended an athlete's testosterone be 1200 or even higher? Perhaps they could cite some underlying medical reason why it needs to be that high.
 
jbryand101b said:
So, if your on trt, but keep it a secret, and compete in Natty shows, is that cheating?

Say guy next to you has natural test levels in the 800s, but yours naturally are in the 200s, but after trt, yours are in the 800-1,000s,
Are you cheating?
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I think for the purpose, yes that would be considered cheating. If you can't achieve the goal by your own capabilities, then that is considered cheating. Say Lance Armstrong was a natural competitor with a Vo2Max of 90 ml/kg/min and you went in with a Vo2Max of 40 ml/kg/min then thats your own problem; if you need to blood dope to get up to 90 ml/kg/min just be be on his level (comparable with low vs. high testosterone athletes) then you are bending the rules to stay relevant.

If you juice, then admit it and just go into that category; don't claim natty when you aint.

If you are using TRT as an excuse to bump test back into the normal-mid range of 400-500ish, then that would be fine. But Bumping it up to high imo is just being dishonest.
 
threeFs said:
And what's to say a doctor's professional opinion recommended an athlete's testosterone be 1200 or even higher? Perhaps they could cite some underlying medical reason why it needs to be that high.
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If you tested that high and it was found it was exogenous test, you would be banned from competing regardless of what your doctor says. Lance Armstrong had medical teams working for him that would have administered his drugs and things but yet he was still banned. TRT implies bumping low testosterone back into the normal-mid range, not the high range.
 
Jiigzz said:
If you tested that high and it was found it was exogenous test, you would be banned from competing regardless of what your doctor says.TRT implies bumping low testosterone back into the normal-mid range, not the high range.
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Debatable. I'm not sure either of knows competitive professional sport policy on TRT
 
threeFs said:
Debatable. I'm not sure either of knows competitive professional sport policy on TRT
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All of the organisations i've worked with don't allow supraphysiological test levels.
 
Not talking about BBing here though, just general Rugby, Football (soccer) and Oly Lifting
 
Was Lance cheating even if every other person in the competition was also doping? Seems like an even playing field to me.

Like Darrell Waltrip and many other NASCAR racers have said - If your note cheating, your not racing. Let alone winning.
 
El Hefe said:
Was Lance cheating even if every other person in the competition was also doping? Seems like an even playing field to me.

Like Darrell Waltrip and many other NASCAR racers have said - If your note cheating, your not racing. Let alone winning.
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I guess it's only cheating if you get caught
 
JRam said:
"Cheating" is such a loaded word IMO. It has a very negative connotation. Perhaps for good reason. However, it has been my experience that most of the people who are at the top of their respective professions, whether it's in business, law, politics, etc., are guilty of what would be considered cheating. And the people who don't cheat, while they may feel a certain sense of self-satisfaction, never reach the pinnacle of their chosen endeavors. Take Arnold for example, by all outward measures, he is considered a success. He is the most popular bodybuilder of all time, a famous movie star, former governor of a US state, and rich beyond belief. But less face it, had Arnold never used AAS we would have never heard of him. Sure, you can say steroids were "legal" in Arnold's day; but they weren't "legal" for bodybuilding purposes. More or less like today, they were legal for medicinal purposes. Just like today, many in Arnold's era viewed taking drugs to enhance their physique as cheating. And you know what? We've never heard of any of these guys. They may have been legends in their local gym but they certainly didn't become global icons. So should one use AAS? Well, if you want to be a legend in the fitness industry, by all means don't hesitate. And if you want to present yourself as natural for marketing purposes go ahead and use them as you'll have a tremendous advantage against real naturals. Just don't get caught like Lance, who is another example of a "cheater" who became an international superstar. Lance's big downfall was his hubris though. Had he been smart about it no one would have never known and his experience would have more closely resembled that of Arnold's. Dare to cheat and be great. Or be a nobody. I'm not passing judgment, it just is what it is.
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Excellent explanation. Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
El Hefe said:
Was Lance cheating even if every other person in the competition was also doping? Seems like an even playing field to me.

Like Darrell Waltrip and many other NASCAR racers have said - If your note cheating, your not racing. Let alone winning.
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Completely agree. People who discredited him for cheating seem oblivious to the fact that he was not alone. IMO that isn't cheating because doping had become a part of the sport and so ingrained into that culture; i still think Lance is a superhuman athlete who only did what he did because everyone else was doing it.
 
Jiigzz said:
Completely agree. People who discredited him for cheating seem oblivious to the fact that he was not alone. IMO that isn't cheating because doping had become a part of the sport and so ingrained into that culture; i still think Lance is a superhuman athlete who only did what he did because everyone else was doing it.
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of course he is. he was one of those child prodigy's like tiger woods, serena/venus Williams, andre agasey (sp lol).
 
Many ways to cheat your way through anything.
 
Jiigzz said:
Not talking about BBing here though, just general Rugby, Football (soccer) and Oly Lifting
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I know Nate Marquardt of the UFC got straight roasted for being on TRT....they wouldn't let him fight and he got released not soon after if I recall correctly. There were a few other guys who were on TRT in the UFC, and I'm not sure how they were handled....but it seems it is frowned upon in just about any sport. Touchy subject since most of these guys are in their 20's and 30's (test should be fine for most), and I am not sure how many of them have actual genetic issues since childhood. There seems to be little excuse for most of these guys to be on TRT other than to gain an advantage. But if its legit? as in there is a real legitimate reason for it? I suppose it should be exempted.
 
I think a guy who is on legit TRT and has a good lawyer would have no problems. They may have had an issue 10 years ago, but its becoming more common every day (drug/pharm money). Nowadays, they better be ready for a lawsuit. In the future, it will be like banning a woman who is on bc for hormone stability.
 
The people saying that steroids will not help unless your training and diet are in check....you're dead wrong. I know people that have taken gear who have terrible lifting and diet habits and make serious gains. Do you think tren cares if there's a hamburger in your hand or a chicken breast and brown rice, no, you're gonna grow either way and your body will more efficiently handle those calories than if you weren't on steroids. This is not recommended, but sooo many people take steroids without having their basics down and get away with it because there's such strong drugs available. **** I know a guy that took test e and masteron e for 10 weeks and gained 15lbs and didn't lift, none. Magic?

Also the guys saying that after steroid usage you will lose all your strength or gained muscle...you're dead wrong. I haven't taken gear in over two years and I'm bigger and stronger than I ever have been. Magic? No, I train 6 days a week, eat 7-8 meals a day and stay devoted to my fitness lifestyle whether on or off gear. Plus I understand how to properly cycle. If you're losing all you're gains after a cycle you don't know what you're doing.
 
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